Tweaking Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tweaking Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jagggar
06-06-06, 05:38 AM This isn't a complete idea yet. Feel free to help or to smack me upside the head if I'm an idiot for trying.

The idea started off when I was experimenting with some gestalt builds and felt there just weren't enough skill points to go around. Then, the saves started bugging me some because you could pick two classes that meshed well with the same saves and be behind others or you could pick classes based on saves so you could be like the monk.

Hit Dice: Dunno yet

BAB: Dunno yet

Saves: A character uses saves averaged between the two classes. Two poor saves results in a poor save. Two good saves results in a good save. A poor save and a good save results in a medium save. (Medium save starts ast +1 and ends at +9 at 20th level)

Class Skills: A character treats class skills from both classes as class skills. A character gains a number of skill points equal to the larger number of skill points + 1/2 the smaller number of skill points. A Fighter//Rogue gains 9 skill points per level (8 + (1/2 * 2)).

Class Features: Gained normally as for gestalt.

I don't quite know how to do HD or BAB. It's easy to do them when it's a d6 and a d10 or Good BAB and Poor BAB, but not so easy when it's d6 and d8 or Average BAB with either Good or Poor.

As for class features, I'd like to do something that would eliminate a Rogue//Ninja sneak attacking and sudden striking for +20d6 and similar situations. I just can't really think of a good way to do that.
Cifer
06-06-06, 02:04 PM Basically, the way gestalt works at the moment is the way it more or less balances out. You can create a very specialized character by using two classes which are nearly the same (rogue+ninja for extreme sneak attack) or use two quite different ones for lack of weaknesses (rogue+barbarian for good saves, good BAB, good hp and skills).
jagggar
06-07-06, 01:07 PM I know how it works right now, but there's nothing that says you can't change the rules.

My 'goal' is to give the characters more options without giving them a major jump in HP, BAB, or Saves.
sren
06-07-06, 09:47 PM My opinion on the subject is that versatility is what adds the most fun to playing a gestalt character. If you average BAB or Saves (and to a lesser extent HD), then you encourage players to choose two similar classes. This is especially true of BAB and fighter-type characters. For saves, if having all good saves is too annoying for the DM, then simply change the save rules to "choose two" and let the characters choose which good saves they want.

I'd love to play with a GM that allows mroe skills (even in a non-gestalt game), but I don't see this as having a huge impact on the game, so adding skill points might make the players feel better about thier characters, and hence have more fun. So I think more skill points is a good idea.

For stacking special abilities like sneak-attack with sudden strike or skirmish, use the sidebars in the books those abilities appear in and treat them like sneak attack, which means the character earns additional damage dice at the faster rate, he doesn't add them together. For my games I modify this a bit, and don't allow more than an equal level rogue could get (plus one for even numbered levels). So the character ends up with a slight advantage over a non-gestalt rogue, but has other abilities that should make their sneak attacks more powerful, or make in position for sneak attacks easier. But that's just my opinion.

Another note for limiting saves, having all good saves in and of itself doesn't get them as high as constant multiclassing will get them, so if you limit multiclassing, saves will stay down in the reasonable level. For limiting multiclassing, in my games, I made each player choose one base class that they would take at every level (i.e. always take one level of fighter or always take one level of wizard etc.). This supports a theme of each character is born to do one thing, and chooses to do something else. I didn't make the players choose which would be the class they were born to until they multiclass for the first time (although, so far, they've all known what classes they were going to keep).

Anyways, I've been running a gestalt game, and the characters are between 8th and 11th level. Combat encounters in my games ae usually pretty tough, so they've needed the extra power. Because gestalts still don't get powers non-gestalt characters can't have at their level, combat encounters, in my opinion, should be made a little tougher by adding enemies instead of using higher CR creatures. So far, the characters usually just barely survive combat, so gestalting hasn't added too much power. We even had one character death; crits still kill at lower levels, even with higher-than-normal HP.

I guess the easiest advice to give is, leaving the rules as they are written in UA is able the best choice. The CR system seems MORE balanced with gestalts than with non-gestalts (lower chance of TPK just because the party lacked the one thing that is needed to kill a particular monster), just up the EL a little (i.e. add creatures), and don't allow frequent multiclassing, and its pretty easy. Maybe I was lucky if my players simply didn't find better ways to powergame, but its been no harder than running a normal game so far, in fact easier since character death isn't a constant concern (I roll in front of characters, so they see when I crit against them, so I can't pull punches without them seeing).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jagggar 06-06-06, 05:38 AM	This isn't a complete idea yet. Feel free to help or to smack me upside the head if I'm an idiot for trying. The idea started off when I was experimenting with some gestalt builds and felt there just weren't enough skill points to go around. Then, the saves started bugging me some because you could pick two classes that meshed well with the same saves and be behind others or you could pick classes based on saves so you could be like the monk. Hit Dice: Dunno yet BAB: Dunno yet Saves: A character uses saves averaged between the two classes. Two poor saves results in a poor save. Two good saves results in a good save. A poor save and a good save results in a medium save. (Medium save starts ast +1 and ends at +9 at 20th level) Class Skills: A character treats class skills from both classes as class skills. A character gains a number of skill points equal to the larger number of skill points + 1/2 the smaller number of skill points. A Fighter//Rogue gains 9 skill points per level (8 + (1/2 * 2)). Class Features: Gained normally as for gestalt. I don't quite know how to do HD or BAB. It's easy to do them when it's a d6 and a d10 or Good BAB and Poor BAB, but not so easy when it's d6 and d8 or Average BAB with either Good or Poor. As for class features, I'd like to do something that would eliminate a Rogue//Ninja sneak attacking and sudden striking for +20d6 and similar situations. I just can't really think of a good way to do that.
Cifer 06-06-06, 02:04 PM	Basically, the way gestalt works at the moment is the way it more or less balances out. You can create a very specialized character by using two classes which are nearly the same (rogue+ninja for extreme sneak attack) or use two quite different ones for lack of weaknesses (rogue+barbarian for good saves, good BAB, good hp and skills).
jagggar 06-07-06, 01:07 PM	I know how it works right now, but there's nothing that says you can't change the rules. My 'goal' is to give the characters more options without giving them a major jump in HP, BAB, or Saves.
sren 06-07-06, 09:47 PM	My opinion on the subject is that versatility is what adds the most fun to playing a gestalt character. If you average BAB or Saves (and to a lesser extent HD), then you encourage players to choose two similar classes. This is especially true of BAB and fighter-type characters. For saves, if having all good saves is too annoying for the DM, then simply change the save rules to "choose two" and let the characters choose which good saves they want. I'd love to play with a GM that allows mroe skills (even in a non-gestalt game), but I don't see this as having a huge impact on the game, so adding skill points might make the players feel better about thier characters, and hence have more fun. So I think more skill points is a good idea. For stacking special abilities like sneak-attack with sudden strike or skirmish, use the sidebars in the books those abilities appear in and treat them like sneak attack, which means the character earns additional damage dice at the faster rate, he doesn't add them together. For my games I modify this a bit, and don't allow more than an equal level rogue could get (plus one for even numbered levels). So the character ends up with a slight advantage over a non-gestalt rogue, but has other abilities that should make their sneak attacks more powerful, or make in position for sneak attacks easier. But that's just my opinion. Another note for limiting saves, having all good saves in and of itself doesn't get them as high as constant multiclassing will get them, so if you limit multiclassing, saves will stay down in the reasonable level. For limiting multiclassing, in my games, I made each player choose one base class that they would take at every level (i.e. always take one level of fighter or always take one level of wizard etc.). This supports a theme of each character is born to do one thing, and chooses to do something else. I didn't make the players choose which would be the class they were born to until they multiclass for the first time (although, so far, they've all known what classes they were going to keep). Anyways, I've been running a gestalt game, and the characters are between 8th and 11th level. Combat encounters in my games ae usually pretty tough, so they've needed the extra power. Because gestalts still don't get powers non-gestalt characters can't have at their level, combat encounters, in my opinion, should be made a little tougher by adding enemies instead of using higher CR creatures. So far, the characters usually just barely survive combat, so gestalting hasn't added too much power. We even had one character death; crits still kill at lower levels, even with higher-than-normal HP. I guess the easiest advice to give is, leaving the rules as they are written in UA is able the best choice. The CR system seems MORE balanced with gestalts than with non-gestalts (lower chance of TPK just because the party lacked the one thing that is needed to kill a particular monster), just up the EL a little (i.e. add creatures), and don't allow frequent multiclassing, and its pretty easy. Maybe I was lucky if my players simply didn't find better ways to powergame, but its been no harder than running a normal game so far, in fact easier since character death isn't a constant concern (I roll in front of characters, so they see when I crit against them, so I can't pull punches without them seeing).