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| Iceflame5507-22-04, 03:51 AM | I was overjoyed to hear that WoTC had Variant Paladins in UA, which is THE primary reason I got the book (though the other variant rules are interesting too). There were several reasons, not least of which I couldn't see there not being Unholy Champions to match the pristinely pure Core Paladin. I like the Variant Paladins for the most part, but they still not up to what I wanted. The purpose for this thread is as follows: 1. A place to discuss the pros and cons of Variant Paladins, and the Core Paladin. 2. A place to throw out suggestions as to what might altered, and discussion of said suggestions. note!: I'm not saying the Various paladin types are broken, weak, and need to tampered with. What I am saying is me personally feel the urge to see what I can come up in large part for my own entertainment, and felt others might find what I'm considering useful, funny, etc. That said, here we go! The first thing I personally disliked was how the Paladin was the only class that absolutly had to be one alignment. I was already trying to remedy that before UA came out, but the Variant Paladins gave me some more to work with. Interestingly enough, thinking up viable class abilities for Evil paladins was easy, given how most of the core class's abilities was so clear-cut, with clear opposites; it was the spell list that has been the worst headache. I finally think I've got the spells more or less nailed down though, mainly because I divided the spells up into General and Aligned spells. Note: General and Aligned doesn't cover spells with an alignment descriptor like [Good] or [Evil], but spells that I felt a Good or Evil paladin might have before thier counterparts. The General spell list looks like this: Paladin Spells (All Alignments) 1st level Create Water Detect Poison Detect Undead Divine Favor Endure Elements Magic Weapon Read Magic Resistance Restoration, lesser Virtue 2nd level Bull's Strength Delay Poison Eagle's Splendor Owl's Wisdom Remove Paralysis Resist Energy Shield Other Silence Undetectable Alignment Zone of Truth 3rd level Discern Lies Dispel Magic Heal Mount Magic Weapon, Greater Prayer Remove Blindness/Deafness Remove Curse 4th level Break Enchantment Death Ward Freedom of Movement Mark of Justice Neutralize Poison Restoration And here is the Aligned lists: Paladin Spells (Alignment) Chaotic Good 1st Bless 1st Bless Water 1st Bless Weapon 1st Cure Light Wounds 1st Protection from Evil 1st Protection from Law 2nd Cure Moderate Wounds 2nd Inflict Light Wounds 3rd Cure Serious Wounds 3rd Daylight 3rd Inflict Moderate Wounds 3rd Magic Circle against Evil 3rd Magic Circle against Law 4th Cure Critical Wounds 4th Dispel Evil 4th Dispel Law 4th Holy Sword 4th Inflict Serious Wounds Chaotic Evil 1st Bane 1st Corrupt Weapon 1st Curse Water 1st Inflict Light Wounds 1st Protection from Good 1st Protection from Law 2nd Cure Light Wounds 2nd Inflict Moderate Wounds 3rd Cure Moderate Wounds 3rd Deeper Darkness 3rd Inflict Serious Wounds 3rd Magic Circle against Good 3rd Magic Circle against Law 4th Cure Serious Wounds 4th Dispel Good 4th Dispel Law 4th Inflict Critical Wounds 4th Unholy Sword Lawful Good 1st Bless 1st Bless Water 1st Bless Weapon 1st Cure Light Wounds 1st Protection from Chaos 1st Protection from Evil 2nd Cure Moderate Wounds 2nd Inflict Light Wounds 3rd Cure Serious Wounds 3rd Daylight 3rd Inflict Moderate Wounds 3rd Magic Circle against Chaos 3rd Magic Circle against Evil 4th Cure Critical Wounds 4th Dispel Chaos 4th Dispel Evil 4th Holy Sword 4th Inflict Serious Wounds Lawful Evil 1st Bane 1st Corrupt Weapon 1st Curse Water 1st Inflict Light Wounds 1st Protection from Chaos 1st Protection from Good 2nd Cure Light Wounds 2nd Inflict Moderate Wounds 3rd Cure Moderate Wounds 3rd Deeper Darkness 3rd Inflict Serious Wounds 3rd Magic Circle against Chaos 3rd Magic Circle against Good 4th Cure Serious Wounds 4th Dispel Chaos 4th Dispel Good 4th Unholy Sword 4th Inflict Critical Wounds The number of spells per spell level break down as follows: 1st level: 16 spells 2nd level: 12 spells 3rd level: 12 spells 4th level: 11 spells I would appreciate any constructive comments, Ideas, and suggestions anyone would like to share. Flamers will be met with liberal use of a flamethrower! :cool: :fight!: :fight!: |
| Camellan07-22-04, 08:48 AM | Looks good. I'm at work sans Complete Divine today, but there are some spells in there that might work. Divine Sacrifice (lose HP, do extra damage) works on all the lists as a general spell, as the only example I can remember off the top of my head. |
| Iceflame5507-22-04, 02:12 PM | Originally posted by Camellan Looks good. I'm at work sans Complete Divine today, but there are some spells in there that might work. Divine Sacrifice (lose HP, do extra damage) works on all the lists as a general spell, as the only example I can remember off the top of my head. There are quite a few spells in alot of accessories that would be usuable, that's true. But I wanted to start by using only Core Book spells first, as I knew I could add in others later on a case by case basis. This way a person could simply have the PHB and be ready to go regardless of which variant they were using! :D There were some spells I hesitated to to keep in the General list, like Shield Other; but then I stopped and thought about it. The Paladin of Tyranny is LE, which implies an organized religion. That means the possiblitility of being asked/ordered to guard someone of importance; or maybe there's someone she might love enough to protect at all costs. The same goes for the Paladin of Slaughter as far as love goes (You can disagree all you like on Evil desiring to protect something, but there's nothing that say Evil can't love. It might be dark and slightly twisted, but it is love). The reason why I stuck the Inflict spells in there for everyone, if different levels for them, is to move away from the image of Paladin=Saint. THey might be good, and desire to be the best that they can be, but that doesn't preclude using spells designed for killing, it just means they have to watch where they throw them. :) |
| Iceflame5507-22-04, 04:33 PM | Ok, this is another little tweak I have i mind, want to see what you think of it. The Cleric can have any alignment that's within one step of his/her deity's; so to allow more Gods a chance at having Paladins among their minons, I'm think of relaxing the restictions on alignment to match the Cleric. Deity Alignment: Paladin Alignments allowed Lawful Good: LG only Neutral Good: LG or CG Chaotic Good: CG only Lawful Neutral: LG or LE True Neutral: None Chaotic Neutral: CG or CE Lawful Evil: LE only Neutral Evil: LE or CE Chaotic Evil: CE only This variant leaves only deities with True Neutral without Paladins. |
| Wizardman07-23-04, 08:17 PM | I like the variants. I also like that they are of the 'extreme' alignments. It's a nice counterpoint to the druids, who must be at least partly neutral. |
| Greyman07-27-04, 12:36 AM | A tweak that I fancy is giving the LE Paladin of Tyranny (Dominator) an Aura of Law instead of Evil, and the ability to Detect and Smite Chaos instead of Good. The code should then be adjusted to reflect this tyrannical opposition to chaos. At the same time, the CG Paladin of Freedom (Liberator) should be given an Aura of Chaos, the ability to Detect and Smite Law, and a code that reflects a liberal opposition law. Reference the old Pal. of Tyranny code - Playable? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207301) thread for more thoughts on this idea. |
| Iceflame5507-27-04, 02:13 AM | I thank you for the thread, but it's moot for those of us who doesn't HAVE the money to go looking for Back Issues of Dragon Magazine (I would if I COULD). But it does bring me to another thing I'm working on: I'm trying to give Paladins more of choice on their Auras. The Aura of Courage ability works for all of the Variants, but I'm trying to avoid them appearing to be out of a cookie cutter. In this case I might need some help, so I'm asking for anyone with Ideas on alternate, BALENCED Auras that are willing to help, to post some Auras YOU might think would work. There are five general possibilities here: Auras a Lawful (Good OR Evil) paladin could use, Auras geared more towards Chaos, Auras aligned more for Goodly paladins, Auras suited more for Evil, and some auras like the Aura of Couage, that fit for ANY alignment. And while everyone considers that, I'll note another way to vary paladins of even the same alitgnment even more: Instead of a Paladin getting Remove Disease x times per week, have each God's Paladins get access to a spell more tailored to that deity (anything up to 3rd Spell Level for a Cleric). As an Example, a Palidin of a God of Guardianship might get Glyph of Warding, while a God of Death might give Animate Dead. A God of Magic might give their Paladins Dispel Magic (In case you need to decide something like this on the fly, examine the Domain lists for that deity's clerics, alot of the 3rd level spells wouldn't be unbalencing to give a Paladin a certain number of times per week). |
| Greyman07-27-04, 03:51 AM | Tsch! You don't need them to alter the variant paladins as I suggested. Just alter the detect [opposed alignment], smite [opposed alignment], and aura of [alignment] to the appropriate alignments and adjust the focus of the codes. Uhm, and the Variant Paladins in Unearthed Arcana do not all have the Aura of Courage. That's reserved soley for the Paladin of Honour. Instead the Paladin of Slaughter has a Debilitating Aura, the Paladin of Freedom has an Aura of Resolve, while the Paladin of Tyranny has an Aura of Dispair. Mmmm... But on the Remove Disease issue I'm quite agreable. The Remove Disease ability goes nicely with Lay on Hands, both of which the goodly Paladins gain in UA, and Contagion likewise maps with Deadly Touch for the evil pair. However, if you tweak the alignment focus of Freedom and Tyranny as I've suggested, perhaps a different pair of abilities for both of these classes would also be appropriate. In place Remove Disease/Contagion maybe you could take a page out of Dragon and give them per-weekly usage of Break Enchantment or Mark of Justice? |
| Iceflame5507-27-04, 07:28 AM | Uhm, and the Variant Paladins in Unearthed Arcana do not all have the Aura of Courage. That's reserved soley for the Paladin of Honour. Instead the Paladin of Slaughter has a Debilitating Aura, the Paladin of Freedom has an Aura of Resolve, while the Paladin of Tyranny has an Aura of Dispair. I KNOW they have seperate Auras in UA. What I'm saying is that the Aura of Courage is not aligned by it's function to Good, Evil, Law OR Chaos. What I am saying is I'm trying to give a player more choice than JUST ONE AURA. An example would be a Paladin of Tyranny that had an Aura of Courage, or another aura OTHER than the one stated for them in UA :) :) If I could, I'd like to give each Paladin Variant at least three options for an Aura. With that many auras to choose from, along with the other tweaks I'm planning on, I'd have a rather nice Variant Paladin set of my own! :schemes: :schemes: |
| Greyman07-27-04, 07:31 AM | Originally posted by Iceflame55 Ok, this is another little tweak I have i mind, want to see what you think of it. The Cleric can have any alignment that's within one step of his/her deity's; so to allow more Gods a chance at having Paladins among their minons, I'm think of relaxing the restictions on alignment to match the Cleric.Or you could just drop the whole idea and remember that Paladins are champions of honour/freedom/tyranny/slaughter/whatever first and worshipers of some diety second (or not at all). |
| Greyman07-27-04, 07:48 AM | Originally posted by Iceflame55 I KNOW they have seperate Auras in UA. What I'm saying is that the Aura of Courage is not aligned by it's function to Good, Evil, Law OR Chaos.Well, UA's mapping is of aura to cause rather than alignment (Courage←Honour, Dispair←Tyranny, Resolve←Freedom, and Debilitation←Slaughter) and it seems to be about the right call to me.Originally posted by Iceflame55 What I am saying is I'm trying to give a player more choice than JUST ONE AURA. An example would be a Paladin of Tyranny that had an Aura of Courage, or another aura OTHER than the one stated for them in UA :) :) If I could, I'd like to give each Paladin Variant at least three options for an Aura. With that many auras to choose from, along with the other tweaks I'm planning on, I'd have a rather nice Variant Paladin set of my own! :schemes: :schemes:Okay, I'm with you now. You want substitution levels with variant auras for each paladin type. That's not a bad idea at all (particularly for the chaotic pair, who shouldn't be all from the same mould). |
| Greyman07-27-04, 07:49 AM | opps. |
| diablos66607-27-04, 08:13 AM | I definitely like the idea of an alternative to the remove disease ability, as it's never seemed particularly useful in any of the games I've played in. |
| Iceflame5507-27-04, 08:17 AM | Or you could just drop the whole idea and remember that Paladins are champions of honour/freedom/tyranny/slaughter/whatever first and worshipers of some diety second (or not at all). I know that there's alot of people who go with that Idea, but I don't see why the Variants couldn't be a different outlook on how to get the job done. Say a God of Guardianship and Protection that's Lawful Neutral. A Paladin of Honor would enact the word of his God one way (the honorable way), while a Paladin of Tyranny would enact them differently. A Paladin of Honor might try diplomacy before war to protect his charges, while Paladin of Tyranny would dictate laws and enforce them; outsiders who were a threat to his charges might find themselves surrounded by armies before they knew what hit them. The same thing with Neutral Good/Evil and Chaotic Neutral. In NG's case one Order (LG) and the other order (CG) simply use different methods to the same end, Good in it's pure form. That's my personal views, and if they're not yours, no biggie as I'm not trying to preach. The reason I started this thread was to help pick the brains of any interested parties, to try and finish my Variant Paladin versions :) When I get finished with what I'm trying to do, I'm going to post them here in a (hopefully) clear and concise format for anyone to use as they see fit. If I can put together something that can to used by anyone else (with minor tailoring to the user's campaign), then I'll consider my work to be worth it. Most of the things I've posted (like ther spell lists above) are part of the finished effort. The Holy and Unholy Auras are causing me the most problems now, so that's what I'm asking about at this point :D :D |
| Greyman07-27-04, 10:44 AM | Originally posted by me Or you could just drop the whole idea and remember that Paladins are champions of honour/freedom/tyranny/slaughter/whatever first and worshipers of some diety second (or not at all).Originally posted by Iceflame55 I know that there's alot of people who go with that Idea, but I don't see why the Variants couldn't be a different outlook on how to get the job done. Say a God of Guardianship and Protection that's Lawful Neutral. A Paladin of Honor would enact the word of his God one way (the honorable way), while a Paladin of Tyranny would enact them differently. A Paladin of Honor might try diplomacy before war to protect his charges, while Paladin of Tyranny would dictate laws and enforce them; outsiders who were a threat to his charges might find themselves surrounded by armies before they knew what hit them.Uh, that's what I said, isn't it? That the alignment based code has more influence on the paladin than the deity's doctrine. That the faith's creed is filtered through the code. They are a Paladin of Honour and a Paladin of Tyranny who both happen to worship a deity of protection, not Champions of the Deity who happen to be either honourable or tyrannical. |
| Greyman07-27-04, 10:51 AM | Originally posted by Iceflame55 The Holy and Unholy Auras are causing me the most problems now, so that's what I'm asking about at this point :D :D Mmm.... yes. Auras, auras, auras... codes and auras... |
| Greyman07-28-04, 03:39 AM | LG: Aura of Nobility LE: Aura of Oppression, of Command GC: Aura of Compassion, of Rebellion CE: Aura of Bloodlust |
| Iceflame5507-28-04, 04:43 AM | You've got a talent for names! *Mental gears start to pick up speed* |