Two Gestalt Players - what level should they be? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two Gestalt Players - what level should they be? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zavarov
03-02-05, 06:32 PM Hiya,

I'm planning on running a prefab module that's designed for a party of four 4th level characters. However, I have only two players.

We have agreed to use the Gestalt rules. One player will be a Sorcerer/Cleric, the other a Barbarian/Rogue.

My question is: how many class levels should I allow them?

So far I've found these tidbits of information on the net/in the books:

1. A party of two should generally be three levels higher than a party of four.

2. Normally, a gestalt character equates roughly to a character of class level+1.

3. Against monsters whose attacks force a saving throw, a gestalt character equates roughly to a character of class level+2.

4. A group of two players is weaker against monsters whose attacks force a saving throw, since if one of them fails his save, the other has to battle it out all by himself.

My take: (3) and (4) seem to cancel each other out. According to (1) the PCs should each be level 7 (7-3 = 4), but as they are gestalts they should be 6th level (2).

However, I'm concerned rule (1) is not taylored to gestalt characters. Two normal PCs (say, a Fighter and a Rogue) would have a severe disadvantage due to a lack of essential party skills (no magic!). Two gestalt PCs don't have this problem. Therefore I'm inclined to think the difference should be only 2 levels, in which case they should be 5th level.

I'm afraid the wrong choice will either make things too easy for them or risk an early TPK. After all, the difference between 5th and 6th level is tremendous for barbarians (second attack!) and sorcerers (fireball!).

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Chris
Morwen
03-02-05, 06:38 PM I would say character level 6.

However, to get an idea about how tough the encounters will be for them you could try dice-rolling the encounters out beforehand, using their characters (or characters similar to theirs if you don't have their sheets). If it seems like they overcome the encounters too easily or with too much difficulty, you should adjust their level or the encounters appropriately.
Bringslite
03-02-05, 07:07 PM What I know about Gestalt PCs can be summed up as: pick 2 classes and take the best features of each.

While they will have all the best of 2 classes to choose from, remmember that they will only get to perform a single standard action each round. That kind of confuses things. I agree that your best bet is to take thier completed characters and run a few simulated combats from your module.
TylerRought
03-02-05, 09:55 PM id say level 5, they would have a CR of about 7.5, bump there level to 6 and there CR is about 9. (ive always figured it out like this: ur ghealst level, + 1/2 ur ghesalt level... it seems to work pretty good). so either level 5 or 6 depending on how good they are with the characters then choose to run.
PurdueDave
03-02-05, 10:42 PM I'd go level 6. It's easier to beef things up and not pull punches as you get a feel for it than un-kill the party.
Zavarov
03-03-05, 07:06 AM I should probably mention that I'm allowing my players to build their stats with 37 points. This is because I figure it's not much use to fill two party roles, if you don't have the stats you need. :)

The Barbarian/Rogue will be something like this:

Str 18 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 6

(includes +1 Str at lvl 4, and +2 Dex / -2 Cha for being an ECL+0 Tiefling)

The Sorcerer/Cleric:

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 16

(includes +1 Dex at lvl 4, and +2 Cha for being an ECL+0 Aasimar)

I think this is only fair, but maybe I'm bang wrong. Would this be an argument towards making them start at 5th level?
Morwen
03-03-05, 06:51 PM Not really.. They're not particularly more powerful as 5th level characters than as 4th level characters. In order for them to have a chance at surviving encounters that qualify as "tough" for a party of four 4th level characters, I think they need to be level 6, so the Barbarian gets two attacks and the Sorcerer gets 3rd level spells.

As mentioned before though, test the encounters in private with their characters at both potential levels before you decide.

Oh, and is there a reason why the Sor/Clr didn't put the 18 in Wis or Cha? :)
Need_A_Life
03-05-05, 03:04 PM (includes +1 Dex at lvl 4, and +2 Cha for being an ECL+0 Aasimar)

Sorry, its +2 wis, +2 cha... at least according to MM1 and they have an LA +1, so they're actually ECL +1 (adding levels to that it'd be ECL 8 (1LA+7class)).
Manwe1977
03-05-05, 03:13 PM I run for two players as well, and they made gestalts. Since I wasn't sure how the gestalts were going to work out in a two man party, I didn't waste a lot of design time and used the Sunless Citadel module. They got killed in the final encounter. Up until then two gestalts was easily able to handle every encounter in the module; what killed them in the end was lack of actions.

The most important thing to remember if you're going to start buffing up CRs to handle gestalts (when there are only two of them) is to remember that they still only get the actions of two characters. They just have more options for those actions.

I think you'll be better off taking it easy on them until you have a good feel for what they can handle. Since I TPK'd my two, but we enjoyed the gestalt character concept, this time they're going to run two gestalts each, which will permit me to buff the CRs of their encounters. And I'm going to need to-- all four characters are at least one part barbarian. They decided to do a half-orc party. *chuckle* Time to throw some Darkwood Stalkers at them!
Zavarov
03-05-05, 07:21 PM Need a Life:

Yes, I know they are normally +1 LA etc. But since LA-races and Gestalts really confuse the matter, I allowed them to use the +0 LA variant from Sean K Reynolds instead (you can find it on this site in hte archhive under "Savage Progressions"
Ualaa
03-06-05, 06:55 PM The Gestalt rules suggest modifying encounters based upon two factors:

- Save or die type powers are effectively 2 levels less challenging (Equivalent to LA +2).
- Other challenges are effectively 1 level less challenging (Equivalent to LA +1).

Gestalt are stronger then LA +1 but weaker then LA +2, leaning more towards +1 then +2. Their biggest weakness is still number of actions in a round; with a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric it should be possible to melee, sneak attack, nuke and heal, but with Gestalt your group is limited to only two of these options.

If both of your characters are optimized and they create their characters together, to get the most overlap of their builds, 6th level is appropriate. If the players are more likely to develop characters on their own, I'd lean towards 6th level, with at least one of them taking Leadership for a henchman to fill in whatever is missing (no healer, give a cleric, etc).
Zavarov
03-09-05, 10:54 AM uhmm... I take it you mean "5th level would be appropriate"? ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zavarov 03-02-05, 06:32 PM	Hiya, I'm planning on running a prefab module that's designed for a party of four 4th level characters. However, I have only two players. We have agreed to use the Gestalt rules. One player will be a Sorcerer/Cleric, the other a Barbarian/Rogue. My question is: how many class levels should I allow them? So far I've found these tidbits of information on the net/in the books: 1. A party of two should generally be three levels higher than a party of four. 2. Normally, a gestalt character equates roughly to a character of class level+1. 3. Against monsters whose attacks force a saving throw, a gestalt character equates roughly to a character of class level+2. 4. A group of two players is weaker against monsters whose attacks force a saving throw, since if one of them fails his save, the other has to battle it out all by himself. My take: (3) and (4) seem to cancel each other out. According to (1) the PCs should each be level 7 (7-3 = 4), but as they are gestalts they should be 6th level (2). However, I'm concerned rule (1) is not taylored to gestalt characters. Two normal PCs (say, a Fighter and a Rogue) would have a severe disadvantage due to a lack of essential party skills (no magic!). Two gestalt PCs don't have this problem. Therefore I'm inclined to think the difference should be only 2 levels, in which case they should be 5th level. I'm afraid the wrong choice will either make things too easy for them or risk an early TPK. After all, the difference between 5th and 6th level is tremendous for barbarians (second attack!) and sorcerers (fireball!). Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Chris
Morwen 03-02-05, 06:38 PM	I would say character level 6. However, to get an idea about how tough the encounters will be for them you could try dice-rolling the encounters out beforehand, using their characters (or characters similar to theirs if you don't have their sheets). If it seems like they overcome the encounters too easily or with too much difficulty, you should adjust their level or the encounters appropriately.
Bringslite 03-02-05, 07:07 PM	What I know about Gestalt PCs can be summed up as: pick 2 classes and take the best features of each. While they will have all the best of 2 classes to choose from, remmember that they will only get to perform a single standard action each round. That kind of confuses things. I agree that your best bet is to take thier completed characters and run a few simulated combats from your module.
TylerRought 03-02-05, 09:55 PM	id say level 5, they would have a CR of about 7.5, bump there level to 6 and there CR is about 9. (ive always figured it out like this: ur ghealst level, + 1/2 ur ghesalt level... it seems to work pretty good). so either level 5 or 6 depending on how good they are with the characters then choose to run.
PurdueDave 03-02-05, 10:42 PM	I'd go level 6. It's easier to beef things up and not pull punches as you get a feel for it than un-kill the party.
Zavarov 03-03-05, 07:06 AM	I should probably mention that I'm allowing my players to build their stats with 37 points. This is because I figure it's not much use to fill two party roles, if you don't have the stats you need. :) The Barbarian/Rogue will be something like this: Str 18 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 6 (includes +1 Str at lvl 4, and +2 Dex / -2 Cha for being an ECL+0 Tiefling) The Sorcerer/Cleric: Str 12 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 16 (includes +1 Dex at lvl 4, and +2 Cha for being an ECL+0 Aasimar) I think this is only fair, but maybe I'm bang wrong. Would this be an argument towards making them start at 5th level?
Morwen 03-03-05, 06:51 PM	Not really.. They're not particularly more powerful as 5th level characters than as 4th level characters. In order for them to have a chance at surviving encounters that qualify as "tough" for a party of four 4th level characters, I think they need to be level 6, so the Barbarian gets two attacks and the Sorcerer gets 3rd level spells. As mentioned before though, test the encounters in private with their characters at both potential levels before you decide. Oh, and is there a reason why the Sor/Clr didn't put the 18 in Wis or Cha? :)
Need_A_Life 03-05-05, 03:04 PM	(includes +1 Dex at lvl 4, and +2 Cha for being an ECL+0 Aasimar) Sorry, its +2 wis, +2 cha... at least according to MM1 and they have an LA +1, so they're actually ECL +1 (adding levels to that it'd be ECL 8 (1LA+7class)).
Manwe1977 03-05-05, 03:13 PM	I run for two players as well, and they made gestalts. Since I wasn't sure how the gestalts were going to work out in a two man party, I didn't waste a lot of design time and used the Sunless Citadel module. They got killed in the final encounter. Up until then two gestalts was easily able to handle every encounter in the module; what killed them in the end was lack of actions. The most important thing to remember if you're going to start buffing up CRs to handle gestalts (when there are only two of them) is to remember that they still only get the actions of two characters. They just have more options for those actions. I think you'll be better off taking it easy on them until you have a good feel for what they can handle. Since I TPK'd my two, but we enjoyed the gestalt character concept, this time they're going to run two gestalts each, which will permit me to buff the CRs of their encounters. And I'm going to need to-- all four characters are at least one part barbarian. They decided to do a half-orc party. chuckle Time to throw some Darkwood Stalkers at them!
Zavarov 03-05-05, 07:21 PM	Need a Life: Yes, I know they are normally +1 LA etc. But since LA-races and Gestalts really confuse the matter, I allowed them to use the +0 LA variant from Sean K Reynolds instead (you can find it on this site in hte archhive under "Savage Progressions"
Ualaa 03-06-05, 06:55 PM	The Gestalt rules suggest modifying encounters based upon two factors: - Save or die type powers are effectively 2 levels less challenging (Equivalent to LA +2). - Other challenges are effectively 1 level less challenging (Equivalent to LA +1). Gestalt are stronger then LA +1 but weaker then LA +2, leaning more towards +1 then +2. Their biggest weakness is still number of actions in a round; with a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric it should be possible to melee, sneak attack, nuke and heal, but with Gestalt your group is limited to only two of these options. If both of your characters are optimized and they create their characters together, to get the most overlap of their builds, 6th level is appropriate. If the players are more likely to develop characters on their own, I'd lean towards 6th level, with at least one of them taking Leadership for a henchman to fill in whatever is missing (no healer, give a cleric, etc).
Zavarov 03-09-05, 10:54 AM	uhmm... I take it you mean "5th level would be appropriate"? ;)