Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thramzorean 03-07-05, 05:24 AM	Just wanted to double check how other people are reading the extra attack per round of the Unearthed Arcana rage variant. The way I've been playing it is that it does give you an extra attack as a standard action attack and not as a full round attack, so you can move and get your double whammy. There isn't anything in the descriptor that in anyway suggests you only get the extra attack as a full round action. Whereever other kinds of extra attacks are mentioned in the rules for which you do need a full round action to do, such as TWF and flurry of attacks, absolutely and very categorically in every case , it states that a full round action is necessary and I'm pretty happy with the extra attack as a standard action. I also read the rules to say you don't get the extra attack at the end of a charge which is "a special full round action" and "you may make a single melee attack". However, would like a second opinion on all of this or notification of an official ruling, thanks. :)
srkingdavy 03-07-05, 06:45 AM	not quite sure what you mean, as there are a few rage variants in Unearthed Arcana.
Arcade 03-07-05, 10:15 AM	I believe he's talking about the whirling rage variant, and I rule it so that you only get the free attack when doing a full attack action, similar to the haste spell.
Thramzorean 03-07-05, 10:00 PM	Whirling rage variant it is. It is the only rage variant in UA that I am aware of... As mentioned I read it as a standard action not a full round one.
sollmn 03-09-05, 10:49 AM	That's how I would rule it. By the way, how have people felt this played? Was it balanced, was it fun? I've always found the increase to Con a normal rge gives is just a sucker's bet for accidental death, since it goes away after the rage ends, which could kill you. It thus seems to me that whirling frenzy is in almost every way superior to normal rage, except bonus to will saves. With that in mind, if given the choice, does anyone know a barbarian who would prefer the normal rage?
HailSpork 03-09-05, 10:16 PM	A frenzied berserker would probably get more out of normal rage. They already get the extra attack while frenzied, and it wouldn't stack with the alternate rage. Still, the alternate rage is a lot better than the normal one.
Vanamir 03-10-05, 06:26 PM	Well in my understanding of the rules you never get more than one attack when doing a standard action so you would get the additional attack only when doing a full attack with the whirling rage variant. Besides that i think that it is definately more power- but less flavourful than the standard rage.
Thramzorean 03-11-05, 01:08 AM	Well in my understanding of the rules you never get more than one attack when doing a standard action so you would get the additional attack only when doing a full attack with the whirling rage variant. Besides that i think that it is definately more power- but less flavourful than the standard rage. Yes, but the rules always state if something is a full round action. Always. If it's flurry in the Exotic Weapon Master or whatever, if something requires a full round action they say so. Whirling Frenzy does have one major drawback. The lack of a con increase severly limits the duration of your rage. If you've got a low con you can become winded way before combat is finished, you're definitely forced to take extended rage for many builds... while the standard rager can get the generally more useful extra rage at low level. Whirling frenzy tends to tapper off in relative affectiveness at higher levels. The comparitive benefits of whirling frenzy are best at low level, less so at high when an extra attack is balanced against iterative attacks plus their miss chance while the dodge bonuses are fixed as the Con hp increase really kicks in at higher levels.
Vanamir 03-11-05, 04:46 AM	Yes, but the rules always state if something is a full round action. Always. If it's flurry in the Exotic Weapon Master or whatever, if something requires a full round action they say so. Maybe they stopped stating the obvious. :P Whirling Frenzy does have one major drawback. The lack of a con increase severly limits the duration of your rage. If you've got a low con you can become winded way before combat is finished, you're definitely forced to take extended rage for many builds... while the standard rager can get the generally more useful extra rage at low level. Whirling frenzy tends to tapper off in relative affectiveness at higher levels. The comparitive benefits of whirling frenzy are best at low level, less so at high when an extra attack is balanced against iterative attacks plus their miss chance while the dodge bonuses are fixed as the Con hp increase really kicks in at higher levels. I disagree for a couple of reasons: Although it is surely possible to become winded in a long combat it has been my experince that those combat are not the norm. Especially at higher levels combat has the tendency to last fewer rounds than at lower levels. You are talking about 'builds' but who really builds a barbarian with a low Con score? This almost never an issue. At sufficiently high levels barbarians are no longer winded after a rage (unless barbarians loose this ability with this variant, don't have the book with me). You are right that whirling frenzy becomes somewhat less useful at higher levels but most campaign are played at lower levels. Everyone plays at 1st level but not everyone plays at 20th level, I'have been playing 3E since it came out and i have yet to play in a ampaign that goes beyond 12th level. As already pointed out before the standard raging rules are a risky gamble because of the lost HP at the end of the rage. Whirling rage is much safer.
HailSpork 03-11-05, 07:12 AM	Let's compare them for a moment: Both UA and PHB rage get +4 str, so let's disreguard that. Both get a +2 bonus on a saving throw, so let's ignore that aspect as well. Both cause fatigue and last con+3 rounds. We're left with the PHB version giving +4 con and -2 AC. The UA version gives +2 AC and an extra attack. Let's just forget about the extra attack (which by the way, should be only in a full round action and probably shouldn't stack with bonuses from haste or such, but I don't think there's going to be a UA eratta any time soon). The UA version gets 4 points more AC than the PHB. The PHB gets 4 more con than the UA. Can you seriously say that 4 points of AC is worth the same as 4 con? The con does 4 things: 1) Provide HP that will end when the rage ends and only be useful temporarily (though not to be confused with temporary hp) 2) Extend the rage 2 rounds 3) Provide a bonus to the barbarians already beefy fort save 4) Help with concentration; something the barbarian is not going to be using much while raging, if at all. #1 and #2 can be useful, but #3 and #4 are not particularly. Personally, I'd say that the UA rage is kind of balanced if it weren't for the extra attack. Perhaps grant the extra attack at a higher level instead of something else?
Thramzorean 03-12-05, 12:00 AM	Let's compare them for a moment: Both UA and PHB rage get +4 str, so let's disreguard that. Both get a +2 bonus on a saving throw, so let's ignore that aspect as well. Both cause fatigue and last con+3 rounds. We're left with the PHB version giving +4 con and -2 AC. The UA version gives +2 AC and an extra attack. Let's just forget about the extra attack (which by the way, should be only in a full round action and probably shouldn't stack with bonuses from haste or such, but I don't think there's going to be a UA eratta any time soon). The UA version gets 4 points more AC than the PHB. The PHB gets 4 more con than the UA. Can you seriously say that 4 points of AC is worth the same as 4 con? The con does 4 things: 1) Provide HP that will end when the rage ends and only be useful temporarily (though not to be confused with temporary hp) 2) Extend the rage 2 rounds 3) Provide a bonus to the barbarians already beefy fort save 4) Help with concentration; something the barbarian is not going to be using much while raging, if at all. #1 and #2 can be useful, but #3 and #4 are not particularly. Personally, I'd say that the UA rage is kind of balanced if it weren't for the extra attack. Perhaps grant the extra attack at a higher level instead of something else? That's +2 AC till 10th level. The extra attack, if read as a full round action, is not a particularly big deal at high levels. Getting -2 on all your attacks for one extra whack becomes less attactive once you have 3 iterative attacks. It's a fair analysis but there is a bit more in the picture. Instantaneous rage can be a life saver for standard rage, it's unlikely to be the difference between life and death when caught in a surprise fireball with Whirling Frenzy.