Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shinryouga 03-25-07, 08:39 PM	I'm considering implementing the Spell Point System from Unearthed Arcana, but I remember seeing a lot of discussion regarding it's overall effectiveness and power level. I'd love to hear a summary of the results, or a link to the actual threads. I've had my own experiments with Spell Point systems, and was about to give up the ghost until I saw that variant sitting amidst the pages. All help and advice is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
Jagyr Ebonwood 03-25-07, 10:06 PM	I love the UA spell point system. We use the vitalizing variant, so the more magic you force through your body, the more it affects you. Once you understand the basic premise of the spell point rules, they're easy to implement. I've even created a custom spell point tracking sheet, showing how many SP you have total, how many you have now, at what point you're fatigued/exhausted, how many SP you have after resting X hours, what the effects of being fatigued/exhausted are, and of course basic things like spells known/prepared, save DCs, and SP costs. I'd be happy to share the sheet with you, if you'd like. I highly recommend spell points, especially if, like me, you've always found the Vancian system a bit off-putting. It does feel like a slight power increase at first, but the vitalizing variant really balances it out (Sure, the wizard5 can cast nothing but fireballs all day, but he's gonna tire himself out real quick)
Shinryouga 03-26-07, 12:32 AM	I'd love a copy of that sheet, if you dont mind. Just the sort of thing I'm looking for in my search to determine if this is right for my game. You can shoot it in an email to my username at hotmail. Thanks!
RobbyPants 03-26-07, 02:20 PM	I like the system a lot. I used it for the first time in my current game, and plan on continuing its use. I also like the fatigue varient presented, but I have not tried that one out yet. The only thing I don't like much about it is that damage increasing metamagics become almost useless until your caster level excceed the damage die cap of the spell (ie above 10th level for a fireball). One bit of a fix is to redo the SP increase for Empower Spell and Maximize Spell to match those found in the XPH (+4 for Maximize instead of +6, and +2 for Empower instead of +4). I really like the flexibility of the system. It is a big help for those non-spontaneous casters when they need to choose between utility and combat spells.
Shinryouga 03-26-07, 06:14 PM	Here's a question I have, considering I have a lot of math-challenged people in my games: is there much of a mechanical difference between the spell point system as written in UA, and just tallying the total level of spells castable, and having them cost their level in points? Example: 8th level bard, 16 charisma. UA, spells cost 1, 3, 5, total of 22 spell points. Straight total, spells cost 1,2,3, total of 17 spell points. Is this an unbalanced comparison? I see some mathematical differences, spells cost about 40% less, but the spell point total is only about 20% less. But I remember most people saying that the UA totals should be bolstered by 30%, so would it even out? Also, is the extra spell points for full caster level of damage dealing spells really neccesary? I recognize the argument regarding lightning bolt vrs cone of cold, but cone of cold has its uses, namely a DC 2 higher, and a much larger area. My group is thankfully decently optimized, but never "munchkined", so I don't think I need to worry about the exploitability of the system, as long as it isn't huge. My players get more mileage out of non-damaging spells anyway, having damage spells cost more would just encourage them further in that direction. All constructive input is appreciated!
Zumarai 03-27-07, 07:02 AM	I like Spell Points because it makes the magic/psionic transparency even more…transparent?
RobbyPants 03-27-07, 11:05 AM	Here's a question I have, considering I have a lot of math-challenged people in my games: is there much of a mechanical difference between the spell point system as written in UA, and just tallying the total level of spells castable, and having them cost their level in points? Example: 8th level bard, 16 charisma. UA, spells cost 1, 3, 5, total of 22 spell points. Straight total, spells cost 1,2,3, total of 17 spell points. Is this an unbalanced comparison? I see some mathematical differences, spells cost about 40% less, but the spell point total is only about 20% less. But I remember most people saying that the UA totals should be bolstered by 30%, so would it even out? The only reason that they do it the way they do (1 = 1SP, 2 = 3SP, etc...) is to keep it to match up with your character level. Remember that you can't spend more SP on a spell than your caster level. So a 5th level wizard casting a 3rd level spell would spend 5 SP. It keeps it closely "balanced" to the standard vancian casting method, which brings me to your second question: Also, is the extra spell points for full caster level of damage dealing spells really neccesary? I recognize the argument regarding lightning bolt vrs cone of cold, but cone of cold has its uses, namely a DC 2 higher, and a much larger area. My group is thankfully decently optimized, but never "munchkined", so I don't think I need to worry about the exploitability of the system, as long as it isn't huge. My players get more mileage out of non-damaging spells anyway, having damage spells cost more would just encourage them further in that direction. All constructive input is appreciated! Well, basically, the bulk of the argument is contained within that lightning bolt vs cone of cold example you sited. You will get a much higher damage output per spell point if you do not have casters spend 1 SP per damage die (ie 9d6 for 5 SP instead of 9d6 for 9 SP, per the example). Don't expect to see many people casting cone of cold until they're beyond 10th level (and thus past the damage cap of lightning bolt). Of course, this system strongly resembles the psionics system in XPH, so you could try to more closely model it on that. Still make the casters pay extra SPs to "augment" their damage dealing spells, but remove the cap in the spells (allowing lightning bolts to exceed 10d6, so long as the caster pays for them), and up the spells DC by 1 for every 2 points spent. Thus a 9SP lightning bolt would function much like a 5th level spell. If you really wanted to go crazy (and I never had the time or energy for this), you could try to come up with augment rules for specific spells (such as allowing the AC bonus of Mage Armor to be boosted similarly to the power Force Screen).
Jagyr Ebonwood 03-29-07, 10:01 PM	If you really wanted to go crazy (and I never had the time or energy for this), you could try to come up with augment rules for specific spells (such as allowing the AC bonus of Mage Armor to be boosted similarly to the power Force Screen). If a caster had Heighten Spell, I'd let them spend more SP to get more out of a spell like this. Maybe something along the lines of an additional +1 per 2 SP spent, to a maximum of double the original bonus. This would work for other spells that give flat bonuses too (Bull's Strength etc.) BTW, Heighten Spell is a nice feat to have in the SP system, and makes a lot of sense flavour-wise; the more power you put into a spell, the harder it is to resist.
RobbyPants 03-30-07, 11:59 AM	If a caster had Heighten Spell, I'd let them spend more SP to get more out of a spell like this. Maybe something along the lines of an additional +1 per 2 SP spent, to a maximum of double the original bonus. This would work for other spells that give flat bonuses too (Bull's Strength etc.) BTW, Heighten Spell is a nice feat to have in the SP system, and makes a lot of sense flavour-wise; the more power you put into a spell, the harder it is to resist. Good point. Yeah, the typical conversion is 2SP / level increased from the metamagic feat. The only thing is I don't see how it would help out spells like Bull's Strength, because the duration is based on your caster level, not the spell's level, and there's no save to make.
Jagyr Ebonwood 03-30-07, 09:35 PM	Good point. Yeah, the typical conversion is 2SP / level increased from the metamagic feat. The only thing is I don't see how it would help out spells like Bull's Strength, because the duration is based on your caster level, not the spell's level, and there's no save to make. RAW, it wouldn't. What I meant is that I'd house-rule to let a caster with Heighten Spell improve his spells in non-traditional ways by spending SP. For example, spending an extra 2 SP to get +5 Str out of Bull's Strength, or an extra 8 SP to get +8 AC out of Mage Armor.
Archangel62 03-31-07, 12:01 AM	Only thing is that rings of wizardry sorta need an overhaul, anyone have any ideas about what they should have in terms of SP you can get.
Jagyr Ebonwood 04-02-07, 06:12 PM	Only thing is that rings of wizardry sorta need an overhaul, anyone have any ideas about what they should have in terms of SP you can get. I do it very simply: Anything that lets you recall a spell, gives back that level of SP, anything that gives an extra spell, gives you extra SP on your total. So, 2nd-level pearl of power, 3 SP/day. Ring of Wizardry 3, adds 5 SP to your total. The difficult part is adjudicating things that remove fatigue when using the vitalizing variant like I do. My ruling so far is that, if you are fatigued from SP loss, and your fatigue is unnaturally removed, you are no longer fatigued but you don't regain SP until after rest. If you drop to a SP level that would have you exhausted, you immediately become exhausted. The same method applies if you somehow remove your exhaustion.
RobbyPants 04-04-07, 10:28 AM	Yeah, I really liked the vitilizing varient for the SP system at first glance, but it does have it's problems. One thing I noticed was atually printed in the system itself: You become fatigues when under 1/2 SP. You become exhausted when under 1/4 SP. SP are regained by rest. One hour of rest brings you up to 1/3 SP (and removes exhaustion). So far, so good. Here's the problem: The second hour of rest brings you to 2/3 SP but does not remove fatigue. According to the sytem, you should lose your fatigue when above 1/2 SP. However, the way the system is set up, you need 6 more hours (8 total, to comply with the fatigue rules in the DMG) to fully remove the fatigue effect. But, earlier in the vitilizing varient, it states that fatigue and SP are directly linked (a drop in one, drops the other). Perhaps I'm just interpreting it wrong. Perhaps a drop in one drops the other, but one raising doesn't raise the other. In terms of abuses (spells that remove fatigue allowing SP gain), maybe I'd take that stance: raising one doesn't raise the other. You still need the appropriate rest to recover. * God, that post seemed incoherent! *
Ace_of_time 04-04-07, 01:11 PM	I would up or lower the cost depend on what type of game you run High powered games use cost = level. lower powered you might want the spells to cst more.
Lecen_of_Mitran 04-06-07, 09:20 AM	I saw that when using Spell Point Variant from UA, magic items like cloak of charisma or headband of intelect do not raise your SP. Why not? And what kind of items I can use in exchange?
RobbyPants 04-06-07, 10:15 AM	Yeah, that's wierd. I don't see why they shouldn't. I can understand not allowing the new SP to apply until after you've rested. I guess this can be fixed by a house-rule (after all, the SP system itself is a house-rule :P).
Ace_of_time 04-06-07, 09:16 PM	Only permanent increases increase your spell casting It does not matter which system you use. the item would only increase DC saves.
Lecen_of_Mitran 04-07-07, 05:10 PM	of course not. A sorcerer equped with a mantle of charisma would get extra spells per day, not only a higher DC.
Deathmond 04-08-07, 04:43 AM	Only permanent increases increase your spell casting It does not matter which system you use. the item would only increase DC saves. Err...bonus spells based on ability? Don't know which system you use. >.> The item would give you extra spell points. They even have a nice little table sayng that if you have X caster stat and can cast Y level of spell you get Z amount of points.
Thane26425 04-08-07, 05:56 PM	Err...bonus spells based on ability? Don't know which system you use. >.> The item would give you extra spell points. They even have a nice little table sayng that if you have X caster stat and can cast Y level of spell you get Z amount of points. Actually it says right in the UA that devices like Headbands of Intellect do not give increases in spell points because they aren't permanant. It would increase the save difficulty though.
TwiddleStootch 04-09-07, 11:21 AM	I am currently using Spell Points, and both my players and I love it! The main problem I have with the normal magic system is that it is too limiting for non-spontaneous casters. Every day, My wizard would grind his teeth trying to figure the best combo of spells: "how many Fireballs? And what about some illusions, just in case?" Spell Points allow for use of the spells that are needed, and make utility spells much more viable. Finally, my wizard isn't afraid to cast his magic missiles! It is a power increase, but so far I haven't found it to be too bad. And your NPCs get to use it too :D EDIT- Also, don't stat boosting items grant extra spell slots? So increasing your casting stat under the Spell Point system would grant an increase ot the save DCs and (possibly) more spell slots? Atleast, thats how I run it...
Ace_of_time 04-09-07, 09:54 PM	Buffing spells don't grant more spells or sp. Since most magical items use these spells to make them they don't ether. Where is the mantle of charisma? Buffing spells only increase DCs for spells.
Ace_of_time 04-09-07, 10:01 PM	Err...bonus spells based on ability? Don't know which system you use. >.> The item would give you extra spell points. They even have a nice little table sayng that if you have X caster stat and can cast Y level of spell you get Z amount of points. bonus spells are based on your base abilities and not enchant bonuses. You do get bonus sp from feats that give you ex spells.
Lecen_of_Mitran 04-10-07, 07:38 AM	Buffing spells don't grant more spells or sp. Since most magical items use these spells to make them they don't ether. Where is the mantle of charisma? Buffing spells only increase DCs for spells. You´re wrong. A Mantle of Charisma +6 and a Headband of Intelect +4 increase DC and spell per days from Sorcerer and Wizard. The question we are doing here it is: why this works in vancian spellcasting but not on spel points casting?
Ace_of_time 04-10-07, 12:36 PM	You´re wrong. A Mantle of Charisma +6 and a Headband of Intelect +4 increase DC and spell per days from Sorcerer and Wizard. The question we are doing here it is: why this works in vancian spellcasting but not on spel points casting? Where does it say that at. If the items descp doesn't say it works different then the spell does then it doesn't and both spells say that they only increase dc and not spells per day.
Ace_of_time 04-10-07, 12:45 PM	Head band of intellect page 258. DMG "This does not earn the wearer skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced intelligence bonus to detemine skills points." this would mean that it would also go by the base int score for spell too.
RobbyPants 04-10-07, 01:19 PM	Head band of intellect page 258. DMG "This does not earn the wearer skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced intelligence bonus to detemine skills points." this would mean that it would also go by the base int score for spell too. All that that part means is that Int bonuses are not retroactively applied to skills that you already have (unlike Con, which will retroactively give you bonus HP per level or hit die). The idea is that you just became smarter, but you would not have magically learned new skills. However, in the future, you gain more skill points based on your new Int modifier. Does it specifically say somewhere in the SP varient in UA that you do not gain bonus SP from magically increased stats? I never remembered reading it, and so far as I know, you still get the extra SP.
Ace_of_time 04-10-07, 01:36 PM	All that that part means is that Int bonuses are not retroactively applied to skills that you already have (unlike Con, which will retroactively give you bonus HP per level or hit die). The idea is that you just became smarter, but you would not have magically learned new skills. However, in the future, you gain more skill points based on your new Int modifier. Does it specifically say somewhere in the SP varient in UA that you do not gain bonus SP from magically increased stats? I never remembered reading it, and so far as I know, you still get the extra SP. It's a few pages down but yes it does . If you want the page # post it and I will find the page. As to the skills NO YOU DON"T GET SKILLS AT ANY NEW LEVEL no matter how many levels you gain with it on. ( If you have a +4 and have an item that give you another + 3 to int then you only get 4skill points per level+ class bonuses) And in the spell that is used to make both says that it does not give more spells only DC bonuses. This would not change unless the items say different which it doesn't. So no in ether system you do not gain more spells from these items.
Ace_of_time 04-10-07, 01:56 PM	Page 154 there is a place where they give an EX of mialee. It says it there.
RobbyPants 04-10-07, 02:29 PM	Thanks :)
polt 04-10-07, 02:36 PM	Is this system in the SRD?
RobbyPants 04-10-07, 03:03 PM	Is this system in the SRD? Yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm).
Lecen_of_Mitran 04-11-07, 02:37 PM	It's a few pages down but yes it does . If you want the page # post it and I will find the page. As to the skills NO YOU DON"T GET SKILLS AT ANY NEW LEVEL no matter how many levels you gain with it on. ( If you have a +4 and have an item that give you another + 3 to int then you only get 4skill points per level+ class bonuses) And in the spell that is used to make both says that it does not give more spells only DC bonuses. This would not change unless the items say different which it doesn't. So no in ether system you do not gain more spells from these items. You don´t get more skills after you wear a Headband of Intelect but you get more spell per day YES.
Ace_of_time 04-12-07, 12:03 AM	You don´t get more skills after you wear a Headband of Intelect but you get more spell per day YES. Unless you can find it somewhere where it says that the headband of int acts different then the spell I'm sorry to say it does not give more spells per day.
MageDance 04-12-07, 04:58 PM	In Neverwinter Nights using items that raise your Charisma gives you more spells..... hehehehe.... could that be reference???
Deathmond 04-12-07, 07:15 PM	Wow, that'll teach me for not reading as carefully as I should. I didn't have any idea that you didn't gain extra spell points based on headbands of int. -Though page 49 of the FAQ states that they WILL give bonus spell slots under the normal rules.
Ace_of_time 04-12-07, 07:42 PM	I stand corrected. D&D® Frequently Asked Questions Version 3.5: Date Updated 03/23/07 "Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.) If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels" just don't take'um off.
A_Villainous_Sidekick 04-12-07, 11:11 PM	Have to admit, I am starting a new campaign and the idea of tweaking magic a bit is something I have often considered. I have followed this thread loosely, so I hope the following question does not derail it -- But what are the general results of using spellpoints? Does it eliminate the sorcerer, spellbook, or truly alter the feel of the standard WOTC wizard?? Any response would be helpful
TheDarkLord 04-12-07, 11:39 PM	Spell points are real great for PC's at 20th level. They can cast their repitoire of 9th level spells 15+ times a day ;). Thus my dislike for the system, I have my own variant vanacian system that solves this problem sort of
RobbyPants 04-13-07, 10:38 AM	Have to admit, I am starting a new campaign and the idea of tweaking magic a bit is something I have often considered. I have followed this thread loosely, so I hope the following question does not derail it -- But what are the general results of using spellpoints? Does it eliminate the sorcerer, spellbook, or truly alter the feel of the standard WOTC wizard?? Any response would be helpful Casters that prepare spells (wizards, clerics, druids, and the like) benifit more from this system than spontaneous casters (sorcerers and bards). That isn't to say that spantaneous casters don't get a benifit though. While their list of known spells stays the same, they can cast from it however they want, within the limits of their SP total. So a 6th level sorcerer can spend all of his SP a day on nothing but fireballs if he wants. He can take all of the SP he gets from the equivalent 1st and 2nd level spells from the "spells per day" table in the PHB, and get probably 3 or so extra fireballs per day. Now, if you're in the camp that belives that sorcerers already lag behind CoDzilla and wizards, then this system will serve to widen that gap. If you feel this way, you might want to do something else to give them a boost.
Ace_of_time 04-13-07, 08:49 PM	Maybe it's a miss print in UA.