Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Theophagos 02-04-05, 06:35 AM	Hi, has anyone used the Rogue-Variant from UA, p. 58 - the one that trades sneak attacks for fighter-bonus feats? It seems to me as if this might be a good trade - that is, little bit too good to be balanced. Has anyone made any experiances with this variant? Thanks in advance. Theophagos
Thelon Fairblade 02-04-05, 07:50 AM	Look up threads about "Rogues w/o Sneak Attack". This has been discussed before on this forum and in the Classes forum.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-04-05, 08:40 AM	Hi, has anyone used the Rogue-Variant from UA, p. 58 - the one that trades sneak attacks for fighter-bonus feats? It seems to me as if this might be a good trade - that is, little bit too good to be balanced. Has anyone made any experiances with this variant? Thanks in advance. Theophagos I think that its unbalanced too. Just consider it logically; the bonus feats are a fighter's only special ability, and those, plus the high base attack bonus, are the fighter's only advantage over any other character class. If you give the rogue the fighter's bonus feats in place of their sneak attack ability, then they gain all of the fighter's special abilities, all of the non-sneak attack rogue special abilities, and better skills and more skill points than the fighter, and their only disadvantage relative to a fighter is a slightly lower base attack bonus. So that particular variant rogue class is clearly unbalanced as compared to the fighter class.
jagggar 02-04-05, 03:27 PM	and their only disadvantage relative to a fighter is a slightly lower base attack bonus. Less hit points as well. d6 as opposed to d10 per level.
Amadan 02-04-05, 05:41 PM	Less hit points as well. d6 as opposed to d10 per level. Not to mention that the fighter will have more bonus feats than the martial rogue.
DM Zoc 02-04-05, 05:54 PM	Oddly, I always considered that to be a bad deal for the rogue. The rogue gives up the majority of damage for more combat feats, when the combat feats can't be effectively utilized because of lack of damage/HP/armor. If the rogue gives up dexterity for strength, in the hopes of dealing more damage, then suddenly skills and evasion suffer, and the rogue is still at a penalty to hit as compared to a fighter.
sollmn 02-04-05, 08:14 PM	I am curious to hear if anyone has actually tried it, rather than just analyze it on-board.
Xeviat-DM 02-04-05, 11:08 PM	I've tried it. It just encourages level dipping. Fighter4/Rogue4 is a great spring board into Duelist with the feat rogue variant.
sollmn 02-05-05, 12:07 AM	Yeah, I would assume it would encouraged dipping. But was it balanced? Was it fun?
Xeviat-DM 02-05-05, 12:33 AM	It was fun, but looking back I don't think it was balanced. I've changed the rogue in my campaign to always include bonus feats. They get a bonus feat at 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19, and they automatically get improved evasion at 9, and skill mastery at 12 and 20. Sneak attack is feats now, each granting a number of dice for with an ever increasing slight of hand rank requirement. The bonus feats can be spent on sneak attack, some light combat feats, skill focus types, or the rogue special abilities. These bonus feats replace the rogue special abilities, which were made into feats and given requirements.
sollmn 02-05-05, 09:10 AM	Sounds interesting. Can you post your bonus-feats list, or at the least, the sneak-attack feat? I really like the sneak-attack feat, anyone with enough training (ranks in sleight of hand or spot or whatever) should be able to learn how to sneak-attack.
Xeviat-DM 02-05-05, 03:18 PM	Sounds interesting. Can you post your bonus-feats list, or at the least, the sneak-attack feat? I really like the sneak-attack feat, anyone with enough training (ranks in sleight of hand or spot or whatever) should be able to learn how to sneak-attack. Exactly! Sneak Attack You know how to strike your foe quickly and effectively, aiming your attack for a vital spot. Requirements: Sleight of Hand 4 ranks Benefit: You deal +1d6 damage when attacking a foe who is denied their Dexterity bonus, or who is flanked by you and another ally. This damage is precision based damage and does not work against foes who are immune to critical hits. Improved Sneak Attack Requirements: Sleight of Hand 7 ranks, Sneak Attack Benefit: You deal +3d6 damage when attacking a foe who is denied their Dexterity bonus, or who is flanked by you and another ally. This damage overlaps with (replaces) the bonus damage gained from the Sneak Attack feat. This damage is precision based damage and does not work against foes who are immune to critical hits. Greater Sneak Attack Requirements: Sleight of Hand 13 ranks, Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack Benefit: You deal +6d6 damage when attacking a foe who is denied their Dexterity bonus, or who is flanked by you and another ally. This damage overlaps with (replaces) the bonus damage gained from the Improved Sneak Attack feat. This damage is precision based damage and does not work against foes who are immune to critical hits. Supreme Sneak Attack Requirements: Sleight of Hand 22 ranks, Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack Benefit: You deal +10d6 damage when attacking a foe who is denied their Dexterity bonus, or who is flanked by you and another ally. This damage overlaps with (replaces) the bonus damage gained from the Greater Sneak Attack feat. This damage is precision based damage and does not work against foes who are immune to critical hits. This was originally based off of the sneak attack feats for the generic classes, but I decided that +2, +3, +4 wasn't a balanced progression, so I changed it to +1, +2, +3, +4.
Clawhound 02-07-05, 01:03 PM	I think that its unbalanced too. Just consider it logically; the bonus feats are a fighter's only special ability, and those, plus the high base attack bonus, are the fighter's only advantage over any other character class. If you give the rogue the fighter's bonus feats in place of their sneak attack ability, then they gain all of the fighter's special abilities, all of the non-sneak attack rogue special abilities, and better skills and more skill points than the fighter, and their only disadvantage relative to a fighter is a slightly lower base attack bonus. So that particular variant rogue class is clearly unbalanced as compared to the fighter class. Bwwhahahahhahahahah. Bhahaaaahahhahhah. Oh, this is funny. Bwhahahah. OK, I'll be serious now. I've been playing a rogue without sneak-attack. When you give up your sneak attack, you give up all your damage potential, and all the feats that defend on the sneak attack, and all prestige classes that depend on sneak attack. If you are in a human-centric game, where you fight many armed opponents and can use trip and disarm, you can do well. If not, you just fall behind. Skills don't help much in combat. You have no high damage potential. You have little staying power in a fight. It's a great variation, and I did enjoy the challenge, but the GM wound up concerned about how weak the class was. Losing a combat ability (large added damage) is not supplemented by any feat or skill.
Xeviat-DM 02-07-05, 01:27 PM	Bwwhahahahhahahahah. Bhahaaaahahhahhah. Oh, this is funny. Bwhahahah. OK, I'll be serious now. I've been playing a rogue without sneak-attack. When you give up your sneak attack, you give up all your damage potential, and all the feats that defend on the sneak attack, and all prestige classes that depend on sneak attack. If you are in a human-centric game, where you fight many armed opponents and can use trip and disarm, you can do well. If not, you just fall behind. Skills don't help much in combat. You have no high damage potential. You have little staying power in a fight. It's a great variation, and I did enjoy the challenge, but the GM wound up concerned about how weak the class was. Losing a combat ability (large added damage) is not supplemented by any feat or skill. I feel you built the character on an incorrect foundation then. If you were trying to play the feat rogue like a sneak attack rogue, you were bound to fall behind. A DM willing to pick up UA and use it's varients should also be willing to work with the players. Certain class abilities from the Swashbuckler or Duelist could be made into feats, such as Improved Weapon Finesse (Int bonus as precision damage) and some of the critical hit abilities too. A feat rogue will fight more straight forwardly than a standard rogue, using feats like combat expertise to defend themselves, the dodge chain to get in and out quickly (some tactical feats help out a lot here), and other tricks too. But you are right. The feat rogue works best in a humanoid oriented campaign; but that can be said about the rogue in general. In a campaign where undead and constructs are frequent, the rogue falls behind. In a game without traps, filled with undead and constructs, the rogue has almost nothing to do. In a social campaign where combat is rare, the rogue's sneak attack becomes a waisted ability. Thus the reasoning behind my rogue.
Clawhound 02-07-05, 02:23 PM	I think that its unbalanced too. Just consider it logically; the bonus feats are a fighter's only special ability, and those, plus the high base attack bonus, are the fighter's only advantage over any other character class. If you give the rogue the fighter's bonus feats in place of their sneak attack ability, then they gain all of the fighter's special abilities, all of the non-sneak attack rogue special abilities, and better skills and more skill points than the fighter, and their only disadvantage relative to a fighter is a slightly lower base attack bonus. So that particular variant rogue class is clearly unbalanced as compared to the fighter class. I've been playing a rogue without sneak-attack. When you give up your sneak attack, you give up all your damage potential, and all the feats that defend on the sneak attack, and all prestige classes that depend on sneak attack. If you are in a human-centric game, where you fight many armed opponents and can use trip and disarm, you can do well. If not, you just fall behind. Skills don't help much in combat. You have no high damage potential. You have little staying power in a fight. It's a great variation, and I did enjoy the challenge, but the GM wound up concerned about how weak the class was. Losing a high damage combat ability is not supplemented by any feat or skill. If you traded Sneak Attack for max rank in every skill, you would still have an equally weak combat character.
DM Zoc 02-07-05, 05:45 PM	I feel you built the character on an incorrect foundation then. If you were trying to play the feat rogue like a sneak attack rogue, you were bound to fall behind. A DM willing to pick up UA and use it's varients should also be willing to work with the players. Certain class abilities from the Swashbuckler or Duelist could be made into feats, such as Improved Weapon Finesse (Int bonus as precision damage) and some of the critical hit abilities too. I have never run into a DM who would make such into a feat. Yet, most DMs I know will allow the variants from Unearthed Arcana. The difference is that everything in this book is an official variant, which means that has been playtested and is more or less balanced.
Orcboss 02-07-05, 06:26 PM	A rogue in a game I'm running is using this variant. He's hardly been overpowering. He makes for a good skirmisher, but just doesn't have the BAB, AC, or hp to stay in the fight for a long time. Once he moves into Duellist in a level or two, it might be different, but I doubt it will be very bad, given what I've seen so far.
The Livewire 02-07-05, 08:24 PM	Hello! I love the battle rogue, I'm playing a fey're battle rogue the extra feats make up for the level adjustment, and the sneak attack isn't missed, since my skills are focused in bluff, disguise and diplomacy and the like. She's been passing herself off as a drow a lot, since we're working the temple of elemental evil. (If eberron had come out earlier I'l be playing a changeling and even more chaotic fun would ensue.) Combat wise, I've built on TWF, EWP Chain (not spiked chain) combat expertise and improved trip. Yeah I'm not as good as a fighter, but against non humans I hide behind the Initate of the Order and use the chain, or I wade in using my DR to tank with the Paladin. Then again we have a regular rogue in the party, and I often find that the reach of the chain allows me to set up better flanking oportunities for her.
Xeviat-DM 02-08-05, 09:55 AM	I have never run into a DM who would make such into a feat. Yet, most DMs I know will allow the variants from Unearthed Arcana. The difference is that everything in this book is an official variant, which means that has been playtested and is more or less balanced. If most DMs you know are willing to use UA varients, then they are probably willing to use the CW Swashbuckler. If they're willing to use UA and the Swashbuckler, they can probably compair the Swashbuckler to the Thug fighter varient. Then one can simply count feats and realize that many of the Swashbuckler's abilities could easily be feats given the right prerequisites. But that's just my reasoning.