Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Troll-Magus 12-29-03, 02:12 PM	Hardback Book, 224 pages Price $34.99 US Release Data: February 2004 Authors: Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman Unearthed Arcana is entirely Open Content General Points - variant classes, races, feats, and abilities - alternate spellcasting systems - combat and campaign options - a bunch of House Rule sidebars written by various members of R&D describe personal variants they've used in their home campaigns - picked up a couple of sections from other companies' products, with their kind permission. - The rest of the book is composed of brand-new material and systems picked up from other WotC products. More specific points - environmental racial variants - bloodline abilities - variant monk fighting styles - - Update: New Monk Fighting Styles Information Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=2) - character class feature variants - - Update: Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=3) - character traits and flaws - - Update: Character Traits Information Sample Traits (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=4) - spontaneous divine spellcasters - spontaneous metamagic - weapon group feats (a definite blast from the past) - power spell components - legendary weapons - a spellpoint casting system - individualized summoning lists - recharge magic - character backgrounds - combat rules with facing - prestige versions of the bard, paladin, and ranger classes - presents at least one (and sometimes several) variants of each of the base classes from the PH, as well as some variant versions of specific class features. In some cases, these variants are subtle, while in others they are pretty dramatic. - wound/vitality system, but also includes other systems (at least one of which was featured in an award-winning d20 game). - class based AC bonuses? Yes - Armor absorb damage system (at least two versions) - "generic class" system that's somewhat similar to d20 Modern base classes and to the classes in d20 CoC - Taint and Sanity - "no negative hit points"-- a new variant "death's-door" rules - - Reserve Points an alternate rule that enables characters to recover from damage more quickly, allowing them to really take a beating and keep going Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031214a&page=4) - playing core classes as prestige classes - alternate damage systems - Brand-new rules include a new system of metamagic feats and a new spell system Not in - no critical hit system IMO some important quotes... Note that while it's cool to wish for things, we can't "take requests" at this point, as the book's been done for weeks. - July 31, 2003 from Andy Collin's board If the book sells well (compared to our other D&D books, I mean), I'd bet cash money on seeing more approaches like this one. Source Links Advert: Source 1 (http://previews.diamondcomics.com/products/games/dec_03/03_unearthed_arcana.html) WOTC Advert: UA Page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881560000) In the Works for Early 2004: Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031214a) Discussions from Andy Collins boards Link (http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm9.showMessage?topicID= 52.topic) Link 2 - a small FAQ and OGC comments (http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm9.showMessage?topicID= 34.topic) Jan 12, 2003 - "See what's "In the Works"" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a) Hopefully I did not add any typos or edit too much and create any problems, any questions check the source links. I hope this helps everyone. Update in this color - Jan 12, 2004
Mr. VanderMeer 12-31-03, 06:17 AM	Thanks for the info.
Ainaelin 12-31-03, 06:53 AM	Originally posted by Troll-Magus Release Data: February 2003 Is it not rather 2004? ;) Thank you for the info; I send the link to my gaming group. I don't think they are aware of this book, but many variants appeal to me, and I think i will buy this one...
Ainaelin 12-31-03, 07:01 AM	Especially those ones, and even more those in Bold! ;) Originally posted by Troll-Magus - variant monk fighting styles - character traits and flaws - spontaneous divine spellcasters - spontaneous metamagic - weapon group feats (a definite blast from the past) - power spell components - a spellpoint casting system - character backgrounds - presents at least one (and sometimes several) variants of each of the base classes from the PH, as well as some variant versions of specific class features. In some cases, these variants are subtle, while in others they are pretty dramatic. - wound/vitality system, but also includes other systems (at least one of which was featured in an award-winning d20 game). - Armor absorb damage system (at least two versions) - "generic class" system that's somewhat similar to d20 Modern base classes and to the classes in d20 CoC - "no negative hit points"-- a new variant "death's-door" rules - - Reserve Points an alternate rule that enables characters to recover from damage more quickly, allowing them to really take a beating and keep going Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031214a&page=4) - alternate damage systems - Brand-new rules include a new system of metamagic feats and a new spell system
Ranger REG 01-02-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Troll-Magus - wound/vitality system, but also includes other systems (at least one of which was featured in an award-winning d20 game). Hmm. I wonder if that's... Nah, it can't be, even though it deserves the award in my book. ;)
SpyGuy 01-02-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by Troll-Magus - a spellpoint casting system Say What!? Is that a mana system? IS IT!? Hallelujah! If it turns out to be something different I will go insane with rage.
JohnnyONeal 01-07-04, 12:03 PM	A book full of variant rules is an interesting concept, but isn't that what the Internet is for? For me the entire point of the WotC material is to have official decisions about game rules. But I don't want to be negative. A lot of these rules sound neat, and I'm sure some of them will become widespread. I like that everything in the book is going to be open game content, so other d20 products will be able to take advantage of any worthwhile innovations.
COSMO KNIGHT 01-07-04, 02:07 PM	Think of these as more of a primer for 4.0. Many of them they wanted in 3.5 but thought many could not handle that much change.
Tzarevitch 01-07-04, 03:05 PM	Does anyone know what is the release day for the book? Tzarevitch
Troll-Magus 01-07-04, 03:25 PM	Originally posted by Tzarevitch Does anyone know what is the release day for the book? Tzarevitch February 2004 no specific street available that I have found, check your local game store perhaps they have a more accurate date from their distributor. Nice cover Link (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0786931310.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Ranger REG 01-07-04, 08:04 PM	What the HELL(!!!) is the difference between a release date and street date? Why should be more concerned about street date over the release date?
stonehill_troll 01-07-04, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG What the HELL(!!!) is the difference between a release date and street date? Why should be more concerned about street date over the release date? In my experience the release date is usually just the month and year. For example the Draoneye Minis release date was December 2003, we did not find out until late November that the street date to the retailers was December 19, 2003. Street dates our harder to determine, as companies try to time their product releases worldwide, so they have to coordinate with manufacturers, printers, distributors, and finally retailers as to when a product will hit the shelf on a global scale. Non RPG books are bit different, since I am into Baen Books' Honor Harrington series by David Weber, I often check their website for release dates. When a book says for example April 2004, I know that the book will actually be in the book store between 15-20 of the previous month.
Ranger REG 01-09-04, 04:55 AM	Originally posted by stonehill_troll Street dates our harder to determine, as companies try to time their product releases worldwide, so they have to coordinate with manufacturers, printers, distributors, and finally retailers as to when a product will hit the shelf on a global scale. Considering that some game stores do not follow the exact date to put their products on sale (they just put them straight up on the shelves as soon as they receive their shipment), street date is not credible information.
Troll-Magus 01-09-04, 10:15 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Considering that some game stores do not follow the exact date to put their products on sale (they just put them straight up on the shelves as soon as they receive their shipment), street date is not credible information. Yep, last year didn't some stores in Holland put out the 3.5 books out too early... and then promtly "asked" to pull them off?
OtherNiceMan 01-09-04, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by Troll-Magus Yep, last year didn't some stores in Holland put out the 3.5 books out too early... and then promtly "asked" to pull them off? IIRC The books were shipped out to the netherlands early to make sure they would be available on the release date. However WoTC did not include any 'do not display before' paperwork or notices with the shipment so, like any other business, product came in and they put it out. Technically they did not break street date as they were not informed of one. Once WoTC realised their mistake and contacted the stores they removed the remaining copies.
Megatron 01-10-04, 06:43 PM	I wonder why all letters but the "h" in Unearthed are capitalized on the cover? Odd. I'm looking forward to it.
Dor Dorloran 01-11-04, 01:43 AM	Does anyone want to conjecture on how a spell point system might maintain the differences between the wizard and the sorcerer?? Would the sorcerer simply get more spell points per day and know fewer spells? Would the wizard get fewer spell points but be able to cast from a wider selection of spells? If so, then the sorcerer would be the "firepower" caster and the wizard the utility/versatility caster? And how might that be balanced? Speculations??
Tenzhi 01-11-04, 01:58 AM	Could be that the Wizard would have versatility, but he would have to roll to successfully cast a spell whereas the Sorceror would have a limited repertoire but could automatically cast any of his spells without having to worry about failure.
Tenzhi 01-11-04, 02:01 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Hmm. I wonder if that's... Nah, it can't be, even though it deserves the award in my book. ;) It would be nice if it were Mutants & Masterminds' variant system - but that ended up technically not being a d20 game as I recall. Which game were you talking about?
Aeolius 01-11-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Troll-Magus environmental racial variants Does this mean that Rich Redman's aquatic template, cut from Savage Species, will finally see the light of day? ;)
Harmony's Sorrow 01-11-04, 01:51 PM	Anyone else here pick up Wizards new catalogue yet? After this book I'll be looking to the new book about the planes, and the new one centered around all things "divine"
Spidereen 01-11-04, 01:56 PM	Originally posted by Megatron I wonder why all letters but the "h" in Unearthed are capitalized on the cover? Odd. It could be the same font used as that in Magic cards. "H" doesn't look capitalized in that font. I don't think it has hidden meaning.
Ranger REG 01-11-04, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi It would be nice if it were Mutants & Masterminds' variant system - but that ended up technically not being a d20 game as I recall. Which game were you talking about? Mutants & Masterminds is what I'm talking about. Granted, the product does not carry the little square "d20 system" logo, but that does not mean the Damage Saving Throw mechanics cannot be ported to any d20 ruleset, labeled or not. After all, the author did based the game on the d20 SRD ruleset as its framework. What's more, the above mechanics is declared Open Game Content.
Troll-Magus 01-12-04, 10:53 AM	I updated my initial post above with the following: - - Update: New Monk Fighting Styles Information Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=2) - - Update: Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=3) - - Update: Character Traits Information Sample Traits (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=4)
Harmony's Sorrow 01-12-04, 11:14 AM	Monk variant fighting styles... can it get much better than that? I don't think so.
JohnnyONeal 01-12-04, 11:17 AM	By the way, Troll-Magus, nice work! Thanks for bringing all that information together and putting it in one place. The more I've learned about Unearthed Arcana, the more interested I've become. I probably wouldn't use this to play straight-up D&D, but it sounds like an awesome resource for a big d20 project I'm working on.
Troll-Magus 01-12-04, 11:59 AM	Originally posted by JohnnyONeal By the way, Troll-Magus, nice work! Thanks for bringing all that information together and putting it in one place. The more I've learned about Unearthed Arcana, the more interested I've become. I probably wouldn't use this to play straight-up D&D, but it sounds like an awesome resource for a big d20 project I'm working on. You're welcome
klyre 01-12-04, 02:51 PM	Originally posted by Megatron I wonder why all letters but the "h" in Unearthed are capitalized on the cover? And the "d" in Unearthed. ...or rather "UNEARThEd" :)
NeghVar 01-12-04, 06:13 PM	Might consider looking at the lettering on the PHB? Thanks! Art
Megatron 01-12-04, 06:16 PM	eh, PHB or UA, its weird. :P
Ranger REG 01-13-04, 02:44 AM	Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow Monk variant fighting styles... can it get much better than that? I don't think so. Old news. Anyone who have Dragon #310 will recognize the concept, in the monk article. Personally, I thought it should be in the Complete Warrior book. Alas... Too bad, they didn't use the fighter variant concept in that same magazine to make a better core classes in Complete Warrior. I hope they would do so this time around with Unearthed Arcana.
Tenzhi 01-14-04, 01:13 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Mutants & Masterminds is what I'm talking about. Granted, the product does not carry the little square "d20 system" logo, but that does not mean the Damage Saving Throw mechanics cannot be ported to any d20 ruleset, labeled or not. After all, the author did based the game on the d20 SRD ruleset as its framework. What's more, the above mechanics is declared Open Game Content. It would definitely be easy to port over (after all, the only reason it ended up NOT carrying the d20 label was so they could include character generation info as I recall). I was under the impression that it was Closed Content for some reason. I kind of lost touch with the Green Ronin info after becoming so disillusioned at the relative lack of Dragon Fist info. But I digress.
Ranger REG 01-14-04, 03:00 AM	Nope. That is OGC. The Power Point mechanics (definition and use) is not OGC. But they do allow people to use it as "PP" in a stat.
Pagan priest 01-14-04, 02:57 PM	Dragon Fist is supposed to be out in 2004!
Eldren 01-15-04, 01:21 AM	Like many, I'm looking forward to the release of Unearthed Arcana. However, what I'm going to find most personally amusing is how many people are going to take individual options from that book and swear up one side and down the other that "This is how Dungeons & Dragons should be, and if you aren't doing this, you're just hosing your game, because the Core game sucks!" People did this like mad on the Psionics Handbook board when "If Thoughts Could Kill", a third-party supplement written by the Psionics Handbook author Bruce Cordell, came out from Malhavoc Press. It was originally a PDF download, but has since been released as a hardcopy rulebook, distributed by Swords & Sorcery. Me, I haven't touched it. I got sick of everyone swearing by the rules in that book, because those rules are, in their entirety, optional, and more to the point, aren't even "official" Dungeons & Dragons rules. They're some things Bruce decided he'd wanted done, but couldn't get done in the Psionics Handbook printing because of the concessions and compromises he had to make to get the original book published by Wizards of the Coast. At least Unearthed Arcana is from WotC. I have a hate/hate relationship with third-party material; of the stuff out there, the only book from a third-party publisher I really like is "Ultimate Feats", although Mongoose Publishing's "Slayer's Guide to Rules Lawyers" and "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" are both hilarious works of comedy. :) I like the idea of the Reserve Points, and while the notion of a point-based spellcasting system is somewhat intriguing, I'm reserving judgment until the book actually comes out, and I can see what they're doing to maintain the power balance between Wizards and Sorcerors. As for Monk fighting styles... Who cares? Monks don't have defined fighting styles in Dungeons & Dragons: They fight "Unarmed", and it's left to the Monk's player and the Dungeon Master to decide how that actually displays in the game.
Ranger REG 01-15-04, 05:41 AM	Originally posted by Eldren However, what I'm going to find most personally amusing is how many people are going to take individual options from that book and swear up one side and down the other that "This is how Dungeons & Dragons should be, and if you aren't doing this, you're just hosing your game, because the Core game sucks!" People can't help but put in their opinionated testimonies in the hope that when the next edition of D&D roll out, what they desire will be the standard for everyone. They don't get it. Unless you're a member of RPGA and is a full-time partcipating gamer in sanctioned RPG tournament, no two D&D games are alike. People did this like mad on the Psionics Handbook board when "If Thoughts Could Kill", a third-party supplement written by the Psionics Handbook author Bruce Cordell, came out from Malhavoc Press. It was originally a PDF download, but has since been released as a hardcopy rulebook, distributed by Swords & Sorcery. Me, I haven't touched it. I got sick of everyone swearing by the rules in that book, because those rules are, in their entirety, optional, and more to the point, aren't even "official" Dungeons & Dragons rules. They're some things Bruce decided he'd wanted done, but couldn't get done in the Psionics Handbook printing because of the concessions and compromises he had to make to get the original book published by Wizards of the Coast. I don't know too much about that. But I did know that Monte Cook wanted to make the ranger class a bit more flexible, but Wizards didn't think it would be right, citing it as one of the "sacred cow," despite a lot of gamers crying out for more change to that class. Lo and behold, 3.5e ranger class now have two combat options, melee and ranged. Just remember, a lot of gamers were expecting 3e Psionic's Handbook to retain the same concept that first established in 2nd Edition's Complete Psionics Handbook, but what we got is more in-line with the Vancian fire-and-forget system similar to the old D&D magic rules. At least Unearthed Arcana is from WotC. I have a hate/hate relationship with third-party material; of the stuff out there, the only book from a third-party publisher I really like is "Ultimate Feats", although Mongoose Publishing's "Slayer's Guide to Rules Lawyers" and "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" are both hilarious works of comedy. :) Actually, I find third-party d20 material more creative than what WotC conservatively put out. In fact, I purchased more third-party d20 products for fantasy roleplaying games than Wizards'. To me, that work well, since Wizards' should concentrate on essentials (like core rulebooks) rather than niches (which third-party publishers can fill in). While I understand it is your personal preference, it peeves me when D&D gamers don't look beyond the Wizards' label and not chance upon d20 products. I like the idea of the Reserve Points, Ehhh. I'm much more interested in the use of VP/WP in D&D. and while the notion of a point-based spellcasting system is somewhat intriguing, I'm reserving judgment until the book actually comes out, I hope it's a good enough concept that can be used with psionics. and I can see what they're doing to maintain the power balance between Wizards and Sorcerors. Hmm. Sounds like they're still trying to correct it when it should have been in the 3.5e revision. As for Monk fighting styles... Who cares? Monks don't have defined fighting styles in Dungeons & Dragons: They fight "Unarmed", and it's left to the Monk's player and the Dungeon Master to decide how that actually displays in the game. Problem is, they want distinction with real-world reference. For example, what's the difference (benefit and weaknesses) between Tai Kwan Do and Muy Thai Kickboxing? But as you say, I don't think Wizards would care about that and will let third-party publishers take a crack at it, since this will be their first commercial print product to contain more than 50% Open Game Content material.
Wyvern76 01-16-04, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by Eldren At least Unearthed Arcana is from WotC. I have a hate/hate relationship with third-party material; of the stuff out there, the only book from a third-party publisher I really like is "Ultimate Feats", although Mongoose Publishing's "Slayer's Guide to Rules Lawyers" and "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" are both hilarious works of comedy. :) When I see people make comments like this, I have to wonder how much 3rd-party material they've actually bothered to take a good look at. Sure, a lot of it is dross, but that's just an inevitable symptom of the d20 market glut. The best 3rd-party material out there is as good or better than almost anything Wizards of the Coast has published. Personally, I've been highly impressed with Spycraft (which really made the system sit up and do tricks), the Ravenloft rulebook, Nyambe, Mongoose's Elementalism and Constructs, Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Doppelgangers, and almost everything that Fantasy Flight has published. I've also read a lot of good things about Eden Studios' Book of War and the Redhurst Academy book from Human Head Studios. If you're so narrow-minded as to think that WotC has a monopoly on creative design, I pity you. I like the idea of the Reserve Points, and while the notion of a point-based spellcasting system is somewhat intriguing, I'm reserving judgment until the book actually comes out, and I can see what they're doing to maintain the power balance between Wizards and Sorcerors.Reserve points are straight out of the Omega World mini-game. As for a spell point system, we already have one in the Psionics Handbook. I'm more interested in seeing the hybrid system that Monte Cook created for Arcana Unearthed. As for Monk fighting styles... Who cares? Monks don't have defined fighting styles in Dungeons & Dragons: They fight "Unarmed", and it's left to the Monk's player and the Dungeon Master to decide how that actually displays in the game. Did you even look at the excerpt? The point of the rule is to give monks more options for the bonus feats they gain at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level, as well as giving them a few extra perks on the side if they follow particular paths. Sure, you could make up something like that yourself, but the point of a book like Unearthed Arcana is to save you the trouble. As for your statement that monks don't have "defined fighting styles", that may be true if you're talking about flavor description, but in terms of game mechanics, the monk's fighting style is more rigidly defined, in terms of what he's capable of, than any other martial class. Of the samples released so far, the one that got my attention most is the new rage variant. Can't remember what it's called, but I remember I read it and said to myself: "Sweet! Dervishes!" Wyvern
Eldren 01-16-04, 03:44 AM	Ranger REG: I don't like the Wound Point/Vitality Point system, personally, and I had plenty of experience with it in playing d20 Star Wars, both the initial and revised (and believe me, the revised was a huge pile of steaming, stinking undead paragon tarrasque poo). To me, the system is a lot more fatal. Critical hits become instantly fatal, realistically. I like the more abstract damage system of hit points because it lets high-level characters be heroic. The WP/VP system insures that whether you're 2nd level or 20th level, two critical hits and you're dead. There's nothing heroic about that. Heroes are supposed to be able to take unreasonable amounts of damage and keep on tickin' until they finally drop because they have little physical matter left to hold their body together. Star Wars presumably used the WP/VP system because they wanted to simulate a deadlier environment which had developed as a result of energy-based weapons becoming common. More to the point, they had to do something to simulate the near-unbeatable use of lightsabers, which could presumably cut through anything short of a droideka shield, given enough time (I mean, c'mon, Qui-Gon was busy cutting through a freaking blast door with his!). This doesn't work as well with Dungeons & Dragons, one of many reasons why attempting to port Star Wars characters into D&D, or vice versa, often doesn't work very well. Either D&D PCs suddenly gain more "hit points", as they get to add their Constitution score to their already-considerable hit point total (which now is called Vitality Points if they're in Star Wars), or SW characters lose some "hit points" as they come into D&D, where their Vitality Points are now called hit points, and they don't get their Constitution score as a buffer after the VP are gone. More to the point, Jedi are especially screwed when ported over to D&D, because they're spending their "hit points" to power their abilities. Talk about a system that seriously sucks... My friends and I have been using something called "Force Points" to power Jedi abilities, and what the game refers to as Force Points, we call "Action Dice", just so they aren't confused. Anything to remove the expenditure of personal health to power abilities. If Yoda can lift a freakin' X-Wing out of a swamp and do little more than sigh, one doesn't conclude this means he's spent un-Godly amounts of his Vitality Points to do this feat, but the system for using "Move Object" in the SW game indicates that to move something the size of an X-Wing requires a huge expenditure of Vitality Points. I just don't like the system. Sure, it might be more "realistic", but hit points are, among many things, one of those "sacred cows" of Dungeons & Dragons that just shouldn't be messed with. I know for sure that the WP/VP option isn't one I'm going to be allowing in my games... Wyvern76: I can't be so crass as to say I've looked at all of the third-party d20 products out there, but I have looked at a large amount of them, and just find the material to be lacking (and don't get me started on the Ravenloft book; talk about a piece of garbage...). Quite simply, I've never been a fan of the Open Gaming License in the first place, much less being able to purchase a d20 License for your product. This has given rise to groups like Swords & Sorcery, which act as the Image Comics of the role playing games community: They publish the stuff from people who would have never been able to get a publisher interested normally because of the lack of quality in the material. In short, S&S and others like them enable shoddy material because anyone and everyone who can scrape together some cash can now publish something to be used with the Dungeons & Dragons game, or the d20 Modern game, or Wheel of Time, or Star Wars, or whatever you like that has a d20 logo on it. I'm not a fan of universal systems; if I was, I'd have been playing GURPS all these years, and I would have been spending un-Godly amounts of cash on trying to keep up with Palladium's constant releases. In the past, people were forced to create legitimately quality material if they wanted a snowball's chance in hell of it being published. They had to come up with their own system if they thought there was something wrong with Dungeons & Dragons that they perceived they could do better. Over time, the dross was separated from the silver, as it should have been. Companies that produced quality material (White Wolf, Palladium, TSR, etc.) all stayed in business, while companies that couldn't compete went out of business quickly. The shelves were filled with lots of stuff, but the stuff eventually went on clearance if people weren't buying it, and for the most part, you knew that if you purchased something to be used with the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game, it was going to be of some minimal level of quality. That isn't the case any longer. Newbie Gamer #1 comes into a gaming shop, not realizing the existence of the d20 License, and sees the Core Rulebooks on the shelf. He purchases them. He plays Dungeons & Dragons. He goes back, and he sees some stuff from Swords & Sorcery, that has the d20 System logo on it, and concludes that this could be used with Dungeons & Dragons, since that has the d20 System logo on it. He purchases it, takes it home, and finds the material to be lacking, or too powerful, or not powerful enough, or just poorly written, and this poisons him against both further third-party d20 products and Dungeons & Dragons for being involved in a system that lets crap like the third-party thing he just purchased be published. I just think it's a bad idea. I like the idea of competition pushing innovation, not competition pushing everyone to jump on the same bandwagon. Now designers working out of their parents' basements can cobble together shoddy material, purchase a d20 license, and publish it through publishing houses like Swords & Sorcery. Crap clutters the shelves to such a degree that you have trouble sifting through the crap to find the treasure, just because there's so much crap and you have so little time. In the past, they would have had to publish their own game, and let it succeed or fail on its own merits. Now if something succeeds in a fantasy d20 product, people can ascribe its success to how well it meshes with Dungeons & Dragons, which removes some of the well-deserved praise that the actual designers of the product ought to be getting, and if it fails, it's blamed on the d20 License enabling people to publish who couldn't previously, because they decided to jump on the d20 License bandwagon. I'm sorry, I just don't think the OGL and the d20 License are good ideas. :) Let D&D remain D&D, and if someone thinks they can do better, then let them show some entrepreneurial spirit, and go out and publish a game that generates good word of mouth, and let them form a company from the ground up, just like Gary Gygax did with TSR, just like White Wolf did, just like Steve Jackson did with GURPS, just like Palladium did, and just like Peter Atkinson did with Wizards of the Coast. Let those who can't succeed fail and not clutter our shelves with their inferior product. *steps off soapbox*
Ainaelin 01-16-04, 06:09 AM	*sigh* Eldren : Well, one COULD answer that if one likes the so-called "sacred cows" and does not want any change in AD&D, one could stick to old AD&D and need not upgrade to D&D 3e... Wyvern76 : Yes of course, you make good points, but how many 3rd-party supplement are there? Quite a lot, I guess. Some are good, (I really liked the Ravenloft setting), some are bad, one can not buy and test them all, unlike their second name is either Cresus or Uncle Scrooge (or maybe not their name, only their wealth)... Not all gamers are, however, so they can only try a few of them, and if a little unlucky, car get VERY disappointed with quite a number of 3rd-party material (or even official WOTC material, for that matter), especially since personal taste is not a universal measure... :rolleyes: Maybe you could avoid such words as "narrow-minded" in a forum... Thank you.
Tenzhi 01-16-04, 06:38 AM	Actually, ICE created several unlicensed supplements "back in the day" that were marketed as "compatible with the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game" as I recall. It's too bad there wasn't an OGL back then, or more publishers might've released some neat 3rd party supplements like ICE's Demons, Demons II, and To Hell and Back.
stone_dog 01-16-04, 01:29 PM	Originally posted by Eldren [B]Ranger REG: I don't like the Wound Point/Vitality Point system, personally, and I had plenty of experience with it in playing d20 Star Wars, both the initial and revised (and believe me, the revised was a huge pile of steaming, stinking undead paragon tarrasque poo). To me, the system is a lot more fatal. Critical hits become instantly fatal, realistically. I like the more abstract damage system of hit points because it lets high-level characters be heroic. The WP/VP system insures that whether you're 2nd level or 20th level, two critical hits and you're dead. There's nothing heroic about that. Heroes are supposed to be able to take unreasonable amounts of damage and keep on tickin' until they finally drop because they have little physical matter left to hold their body together. You know, now that I think back on fiction in general hitpoints don't make many characters heroic (not that I am disagreeing with the idea that they do give you more chances to do heroic things). For example, LotR. How many hitpoints do you think a hobbit farmer has? A long time ago a friend of mine described Call of Cthulu as the most heroic game available. Sure it is a game with high fatality and hardly any decent combat. However the characters are people with no special powers, no special training, none of them have been chosen by destiny or anything and most of them are scholars. Yet these are the people expected by the Keeper to be thrown against the might of ultimate evil and push back the inevitable one more time. THAT is more heroic in my book than a fighter with AC "you don't hit me" and more hit points than a sherman tank could ever be. Of course, with heroes like this they DO have a tendancy to learn to dodge very quickly so everyclass should get a dodge AC bonus like in Star Wars. I do like that a bit better than just piling on the hit points. Oh my... I seem to have been rambling a bit. D+D is a great game don't get me wrong, I just had that little tidbit to set on the table. I'm done for a while. Carry on.
WotC_Andy 01-16-04, 06:44 PM	Eldren, you'll be glad to know that the VP/WP material takes up roughly 1.5% of the book, leaving plenty of other variants for you to try out in your game. :)
Strutinan 01-17-04, 12:02 AM	Eldren: Take a look at my "Dead Stars" book files for an even MORE lethl take on combat, he he he. Its a free download, so you don't even have to spend any cash on it :) As soon as the last of the artwork come sin, it will be turned into a free pdf as well. I think you'll notice that een though 1st-level affordible weapons can dish out enough damage to kill 10th-level characters in one round, that character death will most likley occur due to player stupidity. The basic idea of the game is that ARMOR technology has kept apace with WEAPON technology: resulting in an "armored creampuff" effect. If your armor has enough Damage Reduction (yes armor absorbs damage, ask anybody who has WORN it!) to negate the attack, you live. Even when it gets penetrated, it typically is only by a few points. This combined with the "lucky to have 20 HP by 10th level" system I use in there means that EVRYBODY wears armor, and often multiple layers! And yes, there is also Vitality. This is NOT "Wound/Vitality" Vitality, but REAL Vitality: a measure of available systemic energy. It does not shield your Hit Points, but is lost WITH them when you are hit! Heck, I even have wound effects ;)
Wyvern76 01-17-04, 03:08 AM	Originally posted by Ainaelin Yes of course, you make good points, but how many 3rd-party supplement are there? Quite a lot, I guess. Some are good, (I really liked the Ravenloft setting), some are bad, one can not buy and test them all, unlike their second name is either Cresus or Uncle Scrooge (or maybe not their name, only their wealth)...That's what review sites are for. Wyvern
exempt 01-17-04, 03:41 AM	Originally posted by Megatron I wonder why all letters but the "h" in Unearthed are capitalized on the cover? Odd. Cool! Alternative capitalizatoin schemes! I wanna be a FIGhTER!
memorax 01-17-04, 11:10 AM	Eldren wrote "I'd have been playing GURPS all these years, and I would have been spending un-Godly amounts of cash on trying to keep up with Palladium's constant releases." rigghht because Wotc does not have constant releases I guess eleasing a new edition of game just 3 years after a new release is not doing the same thing. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Eldren 01-17-04, 12:10 PM	WotC_Andy: Make no mistake, I plan on purchasing Unearthed Arcana. :) There are some listed variants within it that I do think are cool, WP/VP just isn't one of them. :) I like my hit points, thanks. Memorax: You're right, WotC has kept up a fairly aggressive release schedule, but the actual rules-based releases have been reasonably evenly spread apart, allowing time to purchase a book, assimilate the rules you want from it and change the ones you don't, and incorporate them into your game. Most of the major rules alterations came in the first year, in the form of the Core Rulebooks, the splatbooks, the Psionics Handbook, etc. Second year's only real major rules revision gave us the Epic Level Handbook, and for those who wanted them, a new Monster Manual and Fiend Folio. Oriental Adventures was nice, but I don't see a lot of use for it in my campaigns right now; I'm probably going to wait to purchase it until my local WotC store is closer to closing, and has a bigger percentage off of their merchandise. I'm really excited about Unearthed Arcana, but some things, like Wound Points/Vitality Points, are a bit of a different "feel" than I personally think Dungeons & Dragons ought to have. It's fine for Star Wars (and does d20 Moder use VP/WP? I don't have that, either...), but just doesn't quite fit with D&D. With that being said, is another variant from UA going to be armor that grants DR, like it does in Star Wars, rather than a flat AC bonus?
memorax 01-18-04, 12:45 AM	Eldren I hope my last post was not to offensive towards you. It just that too many people that I have dealt with just don't give Palladium a fair chance just because of the amount of information. Anyway I too am excited about unearthed arcana. I just hope its not another reprint of material from other sources like I find the complete warrior was in my opininon. Granted sometimes it's unavoidable but I do have high hopes for UA.
Ranger REG 01-18-04, 01:14 AM	Eldren, You are entitled to your own opinion. If you want to stick to HP system (with or without D&D variant Massive Damage Threshold), then that's fine. Respect other players who want alternatives, especially those who LIKE what you DISLIKE. In conclusion, there is no right or wrong way to play D&D. It's your own game.
WotC_Andy 01-19-04, 01:13 PM	UA includes a couple of "armor as DR" variants that approach the concept from slightly different angles.
Pagan priest 01-19-04, 01:41 PM	Wait a minute! don't just leave us hanging with that little snippet of information. There's a couple of DR systems? How many is a couple? 2? 3? How different from each other are they? Are either based on the Star Wars system?
halo299 01-22-04, 04:16 PM	Haven't look forward to a D&D book this much in a long time. New d20 Modern stlye classes!!!!! :bounce: thats all. :u:
jasamcarl 01-22-04, 08:29 PM	Out of curiosity, are action points going to be included ala Modern/Eberron?
Woas 01-23-04, 11:23 AM	Yeah. I want more info too! How come there are like 99 Eberron threads, but only 1 non-active UA thread? I don't care about that Eberron garbage, gimme da UA! :D I can't wait for Febuary. I've already told my players that there is a 95% chance that we wil be 're-starting' the campaign so that we can smothly incorporate UA to the game.
VanDeBeast 01-23-04, 02:14 PM	I'm curious if a reputation sytem like the ones available in Modern/SW/WoT is being included.
halo299 01-23-04, 02:35 PM	Originally posted by Woas I can't wait for Febuary. I've already told my players that there is a 95% chance that we wil be 're-starting' the campaign so that we can smothly incorporate UA to the game. I'm holding off on doing too much more rule type work on my new setting until I see this book!!! Low magic alternitives!!!!!!!:bounce: I so know were my first paycheck is going. Any one know when in Feb. it's comming out? Again :bounce: now I can play that Middle Earth style game I've always wanted!!! :u:
Thiscan 01-23-04, 02:36 PM	EDIT: Sorry, found the answer to my question. For those wondering, UA is OGC :D but not in the SRD. :mad:
eclipticavatar 01-23-04, 06:26 PM	I got my Unearthed Arcana preordered. I hope there are going to be character sheets out for all the variants.
Woas 01-23-04, 08:39 PM	Oh boy, I hope so too.. that would be kinda icky trying to write in all the margins and stuff on a regular Character Sheet wouldn't it? I have mine pre-ordered too! My campaign has naturaly sliding into chaos (chaos theory at work I guess..) so I've been looking for a good excuse to re-organize it. So thats why I can't wait!
Michael Tree 01-24-04, 06:19 PM	Originally posted by eclipticavatar I hope there are going to be character sheets out for all the variants. I seriously doubt there will. There are numerous variants in the book, and they can be combined into a truly staggering number of combinations. There's no way the book could have character sheets for each permutation and combination of variants, and a "generic" sheet with space for all the variants would be so clumsy and detailed it wouldn't be worth it.
Ashen Victor 01-28-04, 05:21 AM	Maybe a Online Character Sheet Generator with Custom Rules. It is a great idea!:bounce: :bounce:
Tzarevitch 01-28-04, 04:11 PM	I hate to sound like a broken record here but what is WOTC's street date? Tzarevitch
Ranger REG 01-28-04, 05:27 PM	What's the difference between a street date and release date, and why should I care? :bored:
Woas 01-28-04, 05:52 PM	Well, the release date is February 2004. Thats a whole month. Meaning if you bought the book off Amazon or something, it could be available to ship any one of those 29 days... the street date is the actual date stores and vendors are allowed to place the book on the shelves for purchase. Just narrows it down. Sudden thought gang: What happends if you are born on Feb 29th? Do you only celebrate your birthday every 4 years? ;)
WotC_Andy 01-28-04, 06:56 PM	Originally posted by eclipticavatar I hope there are going to be character sheets out for all the variants. No variant character sheets, but the book does include a three-page checklist of all the variants included in the book (as well as those from the DMG) for the DM to hand out to his players. The checklist includes page references, as well as extra blank space to add notations relevant to the campaign (variants to the variants, more house rules, etc.).
Count Arioch the 28th 01-28-04, 07:25 PM	Well, isn't that handy. I might purchase this book, it sounds fascinating.
Woas 01-28-04, 10:05 PM	Originally posted by WotC_Andy No variant character sheets, but the book does include a three-page checklist of all the variants included in the book (as well as those from the DMG) for the DM to hand out to his players. The checklist includes page references, as well as extra blank space to add notations relevant to the campaign (variants to the variants, more house rules, etc.). Cooooooooooooooooooool :D :D :)
Ranger REG 01-29-04, 01:53 AM	Originally posted by Woas Sudden thought gang: What happends if you are born on Feb 29th? Do you only celebrate your birthday every 4 years? ;) Only when you're at age 28. ;) Personally, I don't care much for street date. Sounds like when you can find the books in a dark alley alongside drugs and firearms. "Psst. Hey, homes. I got some Player's Handbooks if you and your game ho's wanna score?" :smirk:
Michael Tree 01-29-04, 01:58 AM	Originally posted by WotC_Andy No variant character sheets, but the book does include a three-page checklist of all the variants included in the book (as well as those from the DMG) for the DM to hand out to his players. Is there any way Wizards could post a copy of that sheet on their website, both as a teaser for those who don't yet have the book, and to save our books from binding-cracking photocopiers?
Ainaelin 01-29-04, 04:47 AM	That would be a good idea indeed. And the exact release date would be a great thing as well. I have not been as impatient for a pnp book for a long time.... No, wait... I have NEVER been as impatient as that for a PNP book. :embarrass The only leisure-items that I have been waiting for eagerly for years have been the release of the NWN game and 1st expansion pack (a little of a deception, that pack :( ). well, anyway, please tell me that UA will be available in all of Europe on the 1st of February! :D I want to believe it will be... :tantrum:
Troll-Magus 01-29-04, 07:57 AM	Amazon - Feb 25, 2004 Walmart "should ship Feb 28" Buy.com Feb 2004 B&N Feb 2004 That is all I could find. Check your local hobby shop
Ainaelin 01-29-04, 08:07 AM	OK, thanks. So we will have to wait another month... *sigh* I will die of rule-starvation before that! ;) It's just too long! :D
Count Arioch the 28th 01-29-04, 08:27 AM	Originally posted by Woas Sudden thought gang: What happends if you are born on Feb 29th? Do you only celebrate your birthday every 4 years? ;) I tend to celebrate it on the 28th of February on those shorter, lesser years. Can't speak about anyone else who was born on february 29th. But I can say this: We hate hate hate being referred to as "Leap Year Babies", unless, of course, we happen to be infants at the time.
Woas 01-29-04, 11:42 AM	Originally posted by Michael Tree Is there any way Wizards could post a copy of that sheet on their website, both as a teaser for those who don't yet have the book, and to save our books from binding-cracking photocopiers? It would be very nice if they did that. Even just for the free print out after the release date. Ainaelin: I hear ya... ;)
Ainaelin 01-29-04, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th I tend to celebrate it on the 28th of February on those shorter, lesser years. Can't speak about anyone else who was born on february 29th. But I can say this: We hate hate hate being referred to as "Leap Year Babies", unless, of course, we happen to be infants at the time. You should be called count Arioch the 29th, then...or Leap Count Arioch... :D
Tzarevitch 01-29-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Troll-Magus Amazon - Feb 25, 2004 Walmart "should ship Feb 28" Buy.com Feb 2004 B&N Feb 2004 That is all I could find. Check your local hobby shop Thank you Troll-Magus. You are the first one who has answered my question without the dissertation on "street date" vs. "release date". Tzarevitch
Dave2 02-01-04, 05:07 PM	According to Wizards Customer Service. The Release date is Unearthed Arcana Feb 13th d20 Weapons Locker Feb 13th Walmart.com gets stuff directly from Wizards so I would assume it will have it around the 13th also. Dave
eclipticavatar 02-01-04, 10:47 PM	Amazon has my shipment of Unearthed Arcana estimated for Feb 3rd.
Woas 02-01-04, 10:54 PM	February 3rd?! Thats like... Two days! PATRIOTS WIN!! PATRIOTS WIN!!
Ainaelin 02-02-04, 08:00 AM	I am really suspicious of the amazon-provided dates in general... They are sometimes way out of range!:rolleyes:
Kastas 02-04-04, 02:28 AM	Since it is now the 4th and I haven't heard of any shipments arriving or even being sent out, I'm guessing that the Feb. 3rd ship date was just wishful thinking. I'll be in my FLGS on the 13th, or shortly thereafter.
Woas 02-04-04, 08:14 AM	yup I think amazon.com has Feb 25th up now....
Razz 02-04-04, 10:34 AM	Is it me, or does anyone else out there really hate it when they say a release date, but never name the exact date, only the month, and then you find out that it's not at the beginning of the month, but from the middle-to-the-end of the month that is is released? I sure wish they'd release their products in the first week of the month they say it will be released. I hate waiting for the middle of the month to get something.
Troll-Magus 02-04-04, 10:41 AM	I would recommend to everyone (that has not pre-ordered through an online vendor) to contact your local hobby shop or book store (Barnes & Nobles, Borders, Books-a-Million, etc.) and reserve a copy. The large book stores are very very good about calling you as soon as the book comes in.
Mr. VanderMeer 02-04-04, 10:47 AM	The large book stores are very very good about calling you as soon as the book comes in. So are the small game shops. The only problem here in Holland is that the books sometimes come in before the release date (like the 3.5e core books) and sometimes a month later. But luckily I am a patient man! ;)
WotC_Andy 02-04-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by Michael Tree Is there any way Wizards could post a copy of that sheet on their website, both as a teaser for those who don't yet have the book, and to save our books from binding-cracking photocopiers? I'm now working with the web team to make this happen. Thanks for the suggestion!
Dackad 02-04-04, 04:39 PM	Originally posted by WotC_Andy I'm now working with the web team to make this happen. Thanks for the suggestion! Can I get a loud w00t? :D I'm really looking forward to this book...
stone_dog 02-04-04, 05:27 PM	W00T!
The White Sorcerer 02-04-04, 05:29 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog W00T! Not loud enough. WOOT!
Kheti sa-Menik 02-04-04, 11:37 PM	Originally posted by Ainaelin I am really suspicious of the amazon-provided dates in general... They are sometimes way out of range!:rolleyes: Sometimes ? Try all the time....Amazon and Walmart both are unscrupulous in shipping their items and have no consideration whatsoever for any who orders online. They have been months off on release dates...yes, not weeks or days but months . A good price is no excuse for being treated like crap.
Dave2 02-04-04, 11:47 PM	Would agree on Walmart and Amazon are very slow to get books out. It is also very difficult to get them to tell you where they get their books from. What I tend to do is get one from the local hobby store and get a reserve copy from Amazon or Walmart. PS the Relase Date acording to Wizards Customer Service is the 13th Of Feb regardless to what is on Walmart or Amazons site. Dave One finale thing. For those who want a good low magic game. Conan rpg is very solid.
rich2939 02-06-04, 07:02 AM	When I first heard about this book, I figured it was going to be the counterpart to complete warrior - which I now know not to be true. Just to be sure, is there any content in the book that is considered official, or is it 100% variant rules?
The White Sorcerer 02-06-04, 07:10 AM	Originally posted by rich2939 Just to be sure, is there any content in the book that is considered official, or is it 100% variant rules? They're all 100% official variant rules. :D
Ainaelin 02-06-04, 08:11 AM	Damn, the White Sorcerer answered quicker than me... :D
Razz 02-06-04, 10:53 AM	Well, if someone here ends up with it in their hands, we would all love to hear of it's contents right here on this thread. After all, it's all Open Gaming Content! ;)
Troll-Magus 02-07-04, 12:04 AM	Originally posted by Michael Tree Is there any way Wizards could post a copy of that sheet on their website, both as a teaser for those who don't yet have the book, and to save our books from binding-cracking photocopiers? It is up Variant Rule Checklist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040206a) OMG Thanks Andy!
MadBlue 02-07-04, 01:46 AM	Wow! That's a lot to take in at once. Neat stuff. MadBlue
The White Sorcerer 02-07-04, 01:52 AM	How the heck am I gonna squeeze all that into one campaign? Too much cool stuff, wanna use all of it. Especially the variant classes. They sound pretty nice.
stone_dog 02-07-04, 02:49 AM	Okay everybody. Lets pick out the thing that looks the tastiest off of this menu. Chapter 1- Easy. Bloodlines and Racial Paragon Classes. Everything else looks okay, but doesn't make my mouth water. Chapter 2- Hmmm... I'll take Thug, Monk Fighting Styles and... Gestalt characters? That sounds interesting I'll have that. Chapter 3- Oh! Traits and flaws! Gotta take that. Chapter 4- MMmmm.... everything looks good... lets see. I like what I heard about reserve points and I know I like Action points. Hexes are a pain to draw on. Everything else looks like it can go either way for me. Chapter 5- metamagic components.. that looks good. and recharge magic looks like it would really come in handy. Incantations! Sounds like flavor to me! Chapter 6- Reputation, taint and sanity. Oh hell, this part looks to be the best of the list for me. Make that the whole sampler plate. DMG variants...Whoa... I am full. I really don't think I can eat another thing. Wafer thin you say? Well, damage to specific areas is tempting. I'll take that and power components in a doggie bag. Now I have food coma. So tasty.....
Masterful_Norg 02-07-04, 05:41 AM	;) "Wafer thin you say?" If this were "The Meaning of Life" and you were a fat man, then we would have an isrealite hating mop made cleaning you off the floor by now. That part is disgusting with all the projectile vomiting. Anyway, back on topic. I'll choose the following: Chapter 1: Races based on environment, a la aquatic, arctic and so forth. Blood Lines and Racial Pargon Classes. Chapter 2: Cloistered Cleric, Drudic Avenger, Urban Ranger, Wilderness Rogue, Battle Sorcerer, Favored Environment, Generic Classes, Gestalt Characters, Spontaneous Divine Casters, Aspect of Nature, Specialist Wizard Variants. Chapter 3: Whole thing. Chapter 4: Everything but Hex Grid. Chapter 5: Wholething Chapter 6: Everything exept for those sections conscerning taint. Chapter 7: Just a compilation of stuff I've already seen.
JohnnyONeal 02-07-04, 08:21 AM	Goodness me, I didn't realize how much neat stuff they'd be including. There are a few bits and pieces that will definitely make their way into my next new D&D campaign. The "Urban Ranger," for example, sounds perfect for Eberron. But there's also tons of stuff I can use before then, and so much looks enticing. If I was on the fence before, I'm not anymore. Point-based spells, welcome to my secret d20 project!
fabio milito pagliara 02-07-04, 10:13 AM	most intriguing: almost all classes 79 Alternative Skill System 153 Spell Points and most of all: 113 Injury System what's this? any info on it? thanks PS: everithing very nice, lot of things I like
BBird 02-07-04, 03:28 PM	The Aspects of Nature sound very interesting so far. A few german people who have received their books today told me about. They are replacements for the druidic wildshape ability. Aspect of Plant, Aspect of Elemental Earth, Aspect of Elemental Fire, ... The abilities are combat related. On Level 5 you can choose one aspect, then at level 8 a second one and so forth. Aspect of Elemental Earth grants a slam attack with 1d8 damage and a +8 to ac. You need to be level 16 for that. Aspect of Plant grants a +10 on hide in natural enviroment, immunity to sleep effects, paralysis and stunning. A slam attack is in as well as a AC bonus of 4. Can be taken at 12th level. Does anyone els have some information about the ranger variant rule called Favored Environment?
mad mac 02-07-04, 03:33 PM	Aspects of nature eh? That sounds much much easier to balance than wildshape. I'll have to keep an eye out for that one.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-07-04, 03:35 PM	Is this book available now?
stone_dog 02-07-04, 03:48 PM	I think the favored environment is from the Woodsman class in the Wheel of Time RPG. It was pretty slick, but I'll have to get back to you on that.
Vecna 02-07-04, 03:56 PM	My fav: Spontaneous Divine Casters :) Gestalt Characters :drool: Spell Points :eek: Sanity :behold:
BBird 02-07-04, 03:58 PM	The Druidic Avenger is a standard druid without animal companion, without spontaneous casting, without diplomacy and with a -4 on wild empathy. Instead he gains fast movement and rage like the barbarian does and can use intimidate as a class skill.
Woas 02-07-04, 04:23 PM	...can't wait... ... .. .. . .. only 7th of Febrauary... gahh...
Greg K 02-07-04, 04:28 PM	I suspected this was going to be the first WOTC DND book, other than a core book, that I would purchase. Looking at the checklist, it appears I was right. This book definitely has a lot of interesting options. Chapter 1: Bloodlines sounds intriguing based upon what Andy wrote on his website. Arctic, Jungle, and Desert race variant sounds interesting, but wasn't this covered in the 3.0 DMG (I just moved and my books are still in storage) Chapter 2: For my own preferences, this appears to be a mixed bag. The Gestalt Characters and Generic Classes sound the most intriguing. Andy has said elsewhere that Generic classes are going to be similar to Call of Cthulu classes. I am also interested in the Wilderness Rogue (I wonder if this is the rogue with a skill list that closely resembles the ranger or barbarian rather than the phb rogue) The Bardic Sage, the divine Bard, the cloistered cleric, specialist wizard variants, domain wizard all sound interesting, but I am wary of getting too enthusiastic. I was severely disappointed with the classes in the Minatures Handbook and The Complete Warrior (including the variant Ranger and Paladin). Furthermore, neither the Monk Fighting Style variant nor the Totem Warrior goes far enough with changes to make want to play a DND Barbarian or Monk nor to include them in my campaign. Finally, if what I have heard of Aspect of Nature is true, this is not what I wanted to see for tailoring the Druid. I would have preferred something along the environmental variant Druids found in the Complete Druid Handbook or Mongoose's ). However, the Paladin Prc looked good on first glance so I am holding on to hope for the remaining class variants and PrCs. Chapter 3: This whole chapter sounds interesting. Chapter 4: Defense Bonus, Armor as DR, Vitality/Wound points and Action Points! Pretty much covers the remainder of ideas I listed in the 3e questionaire as wanting to see in a 3e even if the implementation might be a little different than I envisioned at the time (assuming that things work similar to previously published d20 products). I also want to see how they implement the Damage save from Mutants and Masterminds and . Chapter 5: Spell Points will most definitely make it into my campaign. I am also curious to see just what are Item Familiars. I wonder if they are starting magic items (e.g., amulet or wizard's staff) that can be substituted for the familiar which wizards and sorcerors receive.
Vanigo 02-07-04, 04:45 PM	Hmm. Well, the VP/WP variant is on the site now, and I have this to say: it doesn't seem quite finished. NPC classes don't get VP. This is fine for the commoner, expert, and maybe the adept and noble, but since when is the warrior completely incompetent at fighting? Also, the CR of NPC classes needs to change. Nonlethal damage no longer exists under this variant. Why is it impossible to bludgeon someone unconcious without killing them? No matter how hard you get hit, you won't die instantly. I suppose that makes the odd crit less devastating, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "The meteor hits you directly, doing 83,000 points of damage." "Okay, fort save... that's a 19, I'm disabled." Special Damage Situations The vitality point system changes the way some special damage effects work. I can only hope that this will be elaborated on in the actual book. Any bonus points of healing from levels are wasted if the target has only taken VP damage. Why shouldn't they spill over if they aren't needed? Why does regeneration actually make a creature weaker under some circumstances? What about temporary hit points? Also, in the nit-pick category, in the part about DR, it mentiones a crit on a skeleton bypassing its DR. Only problem is, a skeleton is immune to crits. Or is this a change that wasn't mentioned in the excerpt?
CrystalMaster 02-07-04, 06:22 PM	Originally posted by BBird The Aspects of Nature sound very interesting so far. A few german people who have received their books today told me about. Is UA already available in Germany? Amazon will ship it to me only on 27th February. Does anybody know of an earlier availability?
BBird 02-07-04, 06:47 PM	Originally posted by CrystalMaster Is UA already available in Germany? Amazon will ship it to me only on 27th February. The distributors always receive the books about two weeks earlier, so they can guarantee, that every shop is ready to sell them at the targeted street date. However, a selected few of them sell their stuff as soon as they receive it. Big distributors like amazon and others often have to sign something like a contract, that prohibits that but small vendors most often don't. Remember back then when 3.5 was released? Some swedish shops sold those books about three to four weeks earlier. It's about the same with every WotC book. There should be vendors all around the world, where you can already buy UA. Just look for small specialised online shops.
stone_dog 02-07-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by Vanigo NPC classes don't get VP. This is fine for the commoner, expert, and maybe the adept and noble, but since when is the warrior completely incompetent at fighting? Also, the CR of NPC classes needs to change. Warriors don't suck at fighting compared to other warriors, but compared to the heroes they are just mooks. Palace guards are only there to show the audience how skilled the hero is before the villian fight. Nonlethal damage no longer exists under this variant. Why is it impossible to bludgeon someone unconcious without killing them? Okay, I admit that I am curious how this will work too. I imagine since the system is geared more towards a movie plot if you want the mook to drop unconcious you can just tell the GM that, but it looks like that part needs some fleshing out. No matter how hard you get hit, you won't die instantly. I suppose that makes the odd crit less devastating, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sense? In D&D? This system is actually supposed to make LESS sense than normal. Anything that could threaten damage like that should be a Plot Device. That meteor you were talking about would be the Doomsday Device or whatever and if it goes off... well you lose. The system isn't going to be anything like D&D as it generaly runs, but more of a Errol Flynn/7th Sea sort of thing. I do agree though, I am hoping for much more detail in the upcoming book. This thing works fine for Star Wars, but the way it is written now leaves much unanswered for a D&D translation.
stone_dog 02-07-04, 08:33 PM	Okay, now it is nagging a bit and if there is some official word we can get I would appreciate it. First, how are we supposed to knock some one out under these rules? Second, sneak attacks.... how are they affected by this system? Those are the only pressing things on my mind there. Maybe they are even answered in the Star Wars RPG, but I don't have one of those. Thanks
Michael Tree 02-07-04, 08:34 PM	Originally posted by BBird The Druidic Avenger is a standard druid without animal companion, without spontaneous casting, without diplomacy and with a -4 on wild empathy. Instead he gains fast movement and rage like the barbarian does and can use intimidate as a class skill. I think I've just found my next character. :D How does the divine spontaneous magic work? Can it be used with druids and clerics, or is it a seperate class? Does it basically give those classes limited "spells known" like a sorcerer and leave the spells-day chart in the PH the same?
Ranger REG 02-07-04, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by Vanigo Nonlethal damage no longer exists under this variant. Why is it impossible to bludgeon someone unconcious without killing them? Hmm. What you can do is disallow crit on nonlethal attacks. By doing so, the only way a nonlethal attack can inflict wound damage is if there is no vitality point. No matter how hard you get hit, you won't die instantly. I suppose that makes the odd crit less devastating, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "The meteor hits you directly, doing 83,000 points of damage." "Okay, fort save... that's a 19, I'm disabled." DM have final ruling by reasonable judgment. 83,000 points of damage (even half that) is more than enough to reduce a character into ash. A Fort saving throw is moot. I can only hope that this will be elaborated on in the actual book. Any bonus points of healing from levels are wasted if the target has only taken VP damage. Why shouldn't they spill over if they aren't needed? Well, if no WP lost, then apply all to restore VP. Why does regeneration actually make a creature weaker under some circumstances? Weak? Considering that VP heals at 1 point per character level (or HD) per hour, add to that the regeneration rate per round, that does not sound weak, especially when you can't crit on regenerating creatures ... unless you know of the creature's special weakness. And if a DM plays the creature right, would not put themselves exposed to special weakness. What about temporary hit points? By default, apply toward VP. Also, in the nit-pick category, in the part about DR, it mentiones a crit on a skeleton bypassing its DR. Only problem is, a skeleton is immune to crits. Or is this a change that wasn't mentioned in the excerpt? It may look like a poor example. But remember, we don't have crit multiplier in this system. Undead have no VP, just WP according to the excerpt, because of their lack of Con score. By inflicting a crit, we can bypass the DR, but we still do regular damage to only one place: WP.
Michael Tree 02-07-04, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog First, how are we supposed to knock some one out under these rules? Second, sneak attacks.... how are they affected by this system? Doesn't the sidebar suggest that sneak attacks work normally, but only add +1 damage/die in the event of a critical hit? I suspect that if I use the Vitality variant, I'm going to make up some additional house rules to cover the holes in the rules. Like making the dead/disabled save DC equal to 15 or the damage dealt in the final blow, whichever is higher, so high-fort-save characters can actually be killed in battle. I would also differentiate between lethal and nonlethal damage. For Vitality they work identically, but nonlethal damage doesn't inflict wounds, and imposes a saving throw (DC = damage dealt) to remain conscious. Or something like that.
stone_dog 02-07-04, 08:57 PM	Oh yeah... sidebar. Duh. I follow you on the houserules for nonlethal damage, but as far as high fort save characters living longer, that seems to be the point. This isn't going to be a part of any game that implies realism, but for action heroes and swashbuckling adventure it will work just fine.
Ranger REG 02-07-04, 09:20 PM	Why do people insist on using the word "realism" when discussing role-playing games? :P
stone_dog 02-07-04, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Hmm. What you can do is disallow crit on nonlethal attacks. By doing so, the only way a nonlethal attack can inflict wound damage is if there is no vitality point. Or state that a crit with a non lethal strike forces a Fort save to stay consious. Probably 5 or 10 +damage dealt. Well, if no WP lost, then apply all to restore VP. With VP renewing so fast, I'd probably say half the bonus left over from wounds would restore VP. By default, apply toward VP. Hmmm... that is a tough call actually. I'd say it works like healing, Aid would give +d8 VP and caster level in wounds and Virtue would give one wound, but this is really a case by case thing until I can take a closer look at it. It may look like a poor example. But remember, we don't have crit multiplier in this system. Undead have no VP, just WP according to the excerpt, because of their lack of Con score. By inflicting a crit, we can bypass the DR, but we still do regular damage to only one place: WP. If Regen critters can push a fort save to make their vulnerabilities turn into VP then things with DR should be able to as well. A mighty hit COULD fell a werewolf, but if it isn't silver it is still might not work. This system is turning out better and better the more I hear about it.
Vanigo 02-08-04, 02:58 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Hmm. What you can do is disallow crit on nonlethal attacks. By doing so, the only way a nonlethal attack can inflict wound damage is if there is no vitality point. That's still not going to knock anyone unconcious. You'll just kill them slower. DM have final ruling by reasonable judgment. 83,000 points of damage (even half that) is more than enough to reduce a character into ash. A Fort saving throw is moot. You misunderstand the fort save, methinks. When your wound points hit zero, you make a fort save DC 15. If you make it, you're disabled, no matter how big a hit you took. If you fail it, you're not dead, you're dying. Now, DM judgement will take care of a meteor strike, but what about being down to 1 WP and getting bitten by a dragon for 48 points of wound damage? Would you call that an instant kill? What if it was 38 points? What would a different DM say? By the variant rule given, it's impossible to die instantly from anything but a CDG or a finger of death type attack. Furthermore, once you're dying, you're immune to all further damage. Once you're dying, no attack but a CDG has any effect. You get skewered by an arrow? Nothing happens; you're still at 0 WP and dying. You don't even need to make another fort save. You get trampled by a herd of bison? That's not a CDG, so you're still at 0 WP and dying. You get eaten by the tarrasque? You're still alive as long as you keep making those fort saves. Theoretically, you could keep saving until you pass through his digestive tract and come out alive. Still dying, but still alive. As a matter of fact, going strictly by what's written, you're immune to all further damage once you're disabled. You get fireballed? Okay, you're still at 0 WP. You only need to save when you reach 0, not when you stay there, so you aren't harmed any further. Well, if no WP lost, then apply all to restore VP. Sure, but shouldn't it say that? Weak? Considering that VP heals at 1 point per character level (or HD) per hour, add to that the regeneration rate per round, that does not sound weak, especially when you can't crit on regenerating creatures ... unless you know of the creature's special weakness. And if a DM plays the creature right, would not put themselves exposed to special weakness. Weak. Not always, but sometimes. "I fireball the troll. That's 32 points of damage." Under core rules: "Okay, he takes some normal damage, but he's still standing." With VP/WP: "Well, he doesn't get a natural 20, so he fails the DC 42 fort save. That's 32 points of wound damage, so he's dying." By default, apply toward VP. Again, shouldn't it say so? It may look like a poor example. But remember, we don't have crit multiplier in this system. Undead have no VP, just WP according to the excerpt, because of their lack of Con score. By inflicting a crit, we can bypass the DR, but we still do regular damage to only one place: WP. Well, if undead are susceptible to crits under this variant, why doesn't it say so somewhere? This varant rule needs some work before it's usable. It's certantly not unsalvageable, but it's not really playable as-is.
Ranger REG 02-08-04, 09:47 PM	Originally posted by Vanigo That's still not going to knock anyone unconcious. You'll just kill them slower. Then either use Stunning Fist or wait until your opponent failed his Fort Saving throw. Gawd, I'm glad I'm a d20 gamer instead of a D&D gamer. :cool: You misunderstand the fort save, methinks. When your wound points hit zero, you make a fort save DC 15. If you make it, you're disabled, no matter how big a hit you took. If you fail it, you're not dead, you're dying. Now, DM judgement will take care of a meteor strike, but what about being down to 1 WP and getting bitten by a dragon for 48 points of wound damage? Would you call that an instant kill? What if it was 38 points? What would a different DM say? By the variant rule given, it's impossible to die instantly from anything but a CDG or a finger of death type attack. Okay, you're taking the ruling too literally. Any intelligent DM is going to override the Fort Saving Throw and tell the unfortunate player to write up a new PC. Honestly, I don't care if they can be saved by the Fortitude saving throw, a meteor crashing down on them is instant death. Sure, but shouldn't it say that? Well, it's an excerpt. Otherwise, this is your chance to exercise your own house ruling. Weak. Not always, but sometimes. "I fireball the troll. That's 32 points of damage." Under core rules: "Okay, he takes some normal damage, but he's still standing." With VP/WP: "Well, he doesn't get a natural 20, so he fails the DC 42 fort save. That's 32 points of wound damage, so he's dying." That makes spellcasters very powerful in this system, which is why this is ideal for low- or no-magic campaigns. If this happens, although I think it does not always, but sometimes, then you should be glad. Again, shouldn't it say so? Yes, if it doesn't, add it in yourself. Well, if undead are susceptible to crits under this variant, why doesn't it say so somewhere? It merely shows how this system work. It will not touch upon each and every creature. This varant rule needs some work before it's usable. It's certantly not unsalvageable, but it's not really playable as-is. Just remember, this is an excerpt, not the entire thing. At least I hope not.
Temple Mage 02-09-04, 01:38 AM	Vanigo, just ignore Ranger REG, he just wants to win the debate. I like this new "Vitality and Wound Points" system, but I agree with most of your ideas. If you argue with reg, he will just find something to against you, whether his arguement makes sense or not.
MadBlue 02-09-04, 02:11 AM	One thing to consider, also, is that maybe the folks at WotC didn't include the WP/VP system in UA primarily for D&D, but as Open Game Content, so that third party publishers can use WP/VP in their games. And as such, as much as they've tried to adapt it to D&D, there are going to be some things that just won't work as smoothly as in a game where the system is designed around WP/VP. MadBlue
Count Arioch the 28th 02-09-04, 03:07 AM	I was wondering one thing about Unearthed Arcana. Is there a unarmed combat class that doesn't require lawful alignment in this book? My game is in real need of an unarmed fighter that isn't a monk, and I wonder if there's one here before I make one myself. I'm not saying that I don't have a problem with a monk, I'm just saying that a non-aligned unarmed class would be nice.
Kaya Kenobi 02-09-04, 05:12 AM	Just go with a fighter or with Oriental Adventures.. Or go with a Drunken Master.. Anything... ;) But yeah, there should be more options for unarmed warrior variants..
MadBlue 02-09-04, 05:16 AM	Those that haven't already might want to check this thread (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76681&page=1&pp=25) on EN World's message boards. The Q&A starts halfway down page 3. :D MadBlue
Kaya Kenobi 02-09-04, 05:22 AM	Thanks MadBlue!!
Ranger REG 02-09-04, 06:01 AM	Originally posted by Temple Mage Vanigo, just ignore Ranger REG, he just wants to win the debate. I like this new "Vitality and Wound Points" system, but I agree with most of your ideas. If you argue with reg, he will just find something to against you, whether his arguement makes sense or not. Not necessarily, I will concede if he has more valid points than me. :smirk: BTW, did we have an argument before? :D
stone_dog 02-09-04, 11:00 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th I'm not saying that I don't have a problem with a monk, I'm just saying that a non-aligned unarmed class would be nice. Thug sounds promising on that end. Or you could take a look at the oathsworn from Arcana Unearthed. They have to keep to an Oath to keep their powers, but that doesn't mean lawful.
Michael Tree 02-09-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Okay, you're taking the ruling too literally. Any intelligent DM is going to override the Fort Saving Throw and tell the unfortunate player to write up a new PC. Honestly, I don't care if they can be saved by the Fortitude saving throw, a meteor crashing down on them is instant death. With a meteor, sure, but what about with less extreme examples? Where do you draw the line? A 30 HP dragon breath, and 25HP greatsword blow? A 20 HP sneack attack with a dagger? All of these could be instant death in the real world. Ultimately, the argument that "The rule isn't broken, because the GM can just ignore it" is spurious. Hell, that's the argument Kevin Siembieda uses for arguing that there are no problems with the Palladium/Rifts system.
stone_dog 02-09-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by Michael Tree Ultimately, the argument that "The rule isn't broken, because the GM can just ignore it" is spurious. Hell, that's the argument Kevin Siembieda uses for arguing that there are no problems with the Palladium/Rifts system. Great... thanks. Coffee all over my screen now. How about... the DC at 0 WP is 15+ any overflow damage. If you fail by say... more than ten you die. That should keep up both cinematic survival and still have a touch of the fear of death.
Ricardo Martinez Garza 02-09-04, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by Michael Tree With a meteor, sure, but what about with less extreme examples? Where do you draw the line? A 30 HP dragon breath, and 25HP greatsword blow? A 20 HP sneack attack with a dagger? All of these could be instant death in the real world. IMHO the best way to prevent this scenarios is to use the Vitality and Wound Point system with the Armor as Damage Reduction System and disable the rule that says "any critical hit automatically overcomes a creature's damage reduction". In such scenario even if you do 20 wound points of sneak attack damage, plate armor would reduce that amount of damage to a less lethal level (if you are a mage in robes, tough luck, should had mirror image, invisibility, stoneskin or the like cast upon yourself). Some may argue that if critical doesn't overcomes DR automatically monsters would be at an advantage. I disagree, PC usually have less wound points than monsters so are at a higher risk of dying on a critical. On the other hand, characters tend to have weapons with better critical hit ranges than monsters. So even if critical score a kill less often, chances are PC will kill more monsters with a critical than the other way around.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-09-04, 01:02 PM	Edit: Realized my sarcasm detectors ned to be calibrated.
arcady 02-09-04, 01:06 PM	The more I read about this book, the less the ideas in it seem to have been playtested. I've now reached a point where even at 40% off, the option I have for buying it, I'm not sure if it would be a good buy... The book seems to invalidate the playability of sorcerers if you use spellpoints, and the damage save mechanic fails to account for varying hit dice (the difference between having 1d4 hit points per level and 1d12 for example) and the hit die of monsters... http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76681
Ricardo Martinez Garza 02-09-04, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by arcady The more I read about this book, the less the ideas in it seem to have been playtested. You know what they say "You can't judge a book by it's cover". In the interwview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20040207a) the authors say the material was playtasted, but admit the book should at least be twice the size and it is quite comprehensible, aslo remeber that playtesting each and every core book implications would have been very time consuming and checking how the various permutations of every rule affect each other would also have delayen the book. But if 1/4 of the book can be used to make you weekend session more fun, then I think this book is worth it.
Troll-Magus 02-09-04, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by arcady The more I read about this book, the less the ideas in it seem to have been playtested. I've now reached a point where even at 40% off, the option I have for buying it, I'm not sure if it would be a good buy... The book seems to invalidate the playability of sorcerers if you use spellpoints, and the damage save mechanic fails to account for varying hit dice (the difference between having 1d4 hit points per level and 1d12 for example) and the hit die of monsters... http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76681 No kidding, I believe that is why they made it OGL and say options and variant rules for the game system. To quote the interview; Unearthed Arcana didn't undergo anything like "traditional" playtesting. In a sense, though, Unearthed Arcana has been in playtesting for years, as it includes many rules subsystems first published in other d20 games, as well as never-before-published house rules and other personalized variants contributed by designers from their own house games. As the foreword advises, DMs and players cracking open this book should go in with their eyes open -- it's not for the faint of heart. So no in-house "traditional" play-testing, probably just play-tested in the designer's homebrew campaign and OGL material from 3rd party publishers. By making it OGL other designers and publishers can expand and improve the rules, basically let others tweak and refine it. Also there is no way you can use all the rules presented, and some options will conflict with core rules or even with other rules presented in the book. Just pick and choose which to use and tweak to your taste. IMV it is a book of options and variant rulesets that many people have asked for (spell points, DR armor, etc..), but for whatever reason WOTC does not feel that these ideas are popular enough to warrant a significant investment or else the book would be bigger and playtested. So they are testing the water (probably a small print run), depending on feedback they will respond with expanded and refined versions or drop it. Anyway, as always you should review it before you buy if this is not to your taste.
Razz 02-09-04, 07:01 PM	And that was their mistake. Personally, I believe WotC should officially and traditionally playtest ALL their products before releasing them. I would rather have them take more time to playtest the new stuff than to rush it into the market. Damn bean counters.
JohnSnow 02-09-04, 07:24 PM	Personally, I don't have a problem with Wizards of the Coast releasing a book of Variant Rules without playtesting it to death. The focus of Unearthed Arcana seems to be "it's your game, personalize it." WotC has also stated clearly that UA is intended as a book for advanced players and DMs searching for "more options." So they've included variants from other games, variants from designers' homebrew campaigns, and so forth. For instance, the Bloodlines concept has been extensively playtested in a standard D&D campaign (Andy's!). Taint, Sanity, and Action Points have been widely playtested as well, just not necessarily in "standard D&D." This is FINE with me. I don't need to be told that if I add 15 rules variants to D&D, I have to keep a close eye on how they interact. Do you realize that if you required them to playtest EVERY permutation, you're making it impossible? No? Every variant rule comes with an ON and an OFF switch. So 50 variants which can all be turned on and off is like 2x2x2x2x2 etc. 50 times rule sets. Which is THOUSANDS (millions actually) of permutations to the game. That said, the variants are probably "reasonably balanced." Further balancing is why the DM exists. I mean, is taint balanced? Yes, it works in Oriental Adventures. Is sanity balanced? It seems to work in Call of Cthulu, and it's probably been tested in at least one game alongside the core rules. Hero Points? Well, they work okay in D20 Modern and maybe they work alright in the homebrews that have been tried around the office. Is a game balanced that includes both Taint & Sanity? Taint, Sanity and Hero points? Hero points and Sanity but not Taint? Hero Points and Taint but not Sanity? Now, remember how many variants you're dealing with. Options that have been fully playtested (with the Core Rules and all of the other options) are just IMPOSSIBLE.
arcady 02-09-04, 07:35 PM	There is no excuse for not playtesting. None. A well playtested and edited product versus one rushed out is the difference in the consumer between looking at it and saying "I've got to have this to use in my game - and make all my players buy it" versus "Too much work to be usable in my game, I'll shelve my copy and tell my players they don't need to pick it up. Matter of fact, I'll sell my copy on eBay/local store's used section to some other sucker." It also impacts future sales, as the consumer loses faith in the company. I and my group no longer buy all but the most vital of WotC's products, and then only one of my players does so. In the past, I had several who kept current with all releases, even for settings we weren't using. The financial solvency of my players today is about on par with what it has always been, I as the prime purchaser am one of the few who had a major drop in income (dot-com crash turned me from senior programmer to unemployed university student). So our drop in purchasing is not motivated by a drop in income. I for one could stand to wait another year to buy a book done right. Especially given that it's all variant rules - nothing in it is 'needed' until the moment I see it and feel "I gotta use this". If it's all done as shoddily as the import of Mutants and Masterminds Damage Save appears to have been done, or as poor in balance as the Spell Points were done, then there won't be anything I can use anyway... Both of those ideas can be done right, and they should be done right before people lay out money. Likewise for any other new or old idea in the book.
JohnSnow 02-09-04, 08:01 PM	So Arcady (and others), you expect Wizards to playtest the game with EVERY permutation of the variant rules in Unearthed Arcana? Every permutation? I just counted them up. There are 102(!) topics in the Unearthed Arcana checklist. Each one has a few different rules under it, I'm sure. So do you honestly expect WotC to playtest the game with (and without) each and every permutation of those variants? Let's say that out of all of those, a few are minor, and a few don't need to be playtested against one another, lowering the important to test variants to, say, 50. 50 Variants to test with the core rules means 2 to the Fiftieth power permutations. That's ~1.125 QUADRILLION (1,126,000,000,000,000) permutations. Even a much smaller subset of 15 variants is 2 to the 15th power variant games, or 32, 768 variants. That would only take something like 200 years to test. So, they probably tested each variant...and playtested a few (of those likely to be used side-by-side) alongside each other. That's maybe 100 variants and even with an aggressive 10 hours per variant by 2 playtest teams of 5 people....That's 12.5 weeks of playtesting (and 10,000 person-hours) and you don't have the corroborating evidence of multiple tests. Twice as many permuations = twice as much play testing. In honesty, they probably playtested each variant (by itself) with several teams and the teams crosschecked notes. Asking them to test anything more than 200 variants is an INSANE request. Do you not see how difficult (actually, impossible) what you're asking is? On the other hand, if what you're saying is that they should have playtested each variant they included, I suppose I'd agree with that. But I'm not sure that they didn't DO that. And I'm personally inclined to trust a given designer's "in-house" games as a valid form of playtesting. After all, isn't that what we (the gaming community) do with our OWN variant rules?
arcady 02-09-04, 08:37 PM	Originally posted by JohnSnow So Arcady (and others), you expect Wizards to playtest the game with EVERY permutation of the variant rules in Unearthed Arcana? Every permutation?No. I expect them to playtest major issues and minor frequent issues. I expect them to ensure the rule can be used as is in normal play under normal play scenerios. The sorts of things that can be solved by a few minutes of thought, and letting it run through a few tests. If that takes an additional year to release then fine, though I doubt it would. A book of rules - be they standard rules or varient rules, is something that needs even more playtesting than any other sort of product.
Katowice 02-09-04, 09:02 PM	Will the Open Content from the book be added to the SRD online?
Ranger REG 02-09-04, 09:22 PM	So... All in favor of telling Wizards NOT to release Unearthed Arcana at this time until it undergoes a minimum 30-day Alpha playtesting period followed by a editing/proofreading period and a 30-day Beta playtesting period and final editing, shout :censored: :censored:
Katowice 02-09-04, 11:45 PM	Well, if that happened and the rules were "perfect," no one on this board would have anything to :censored: about. Originally posted by Ranger REG So... All in favor of telling Wizards NOT to release Unearthed Arcana at this time until it undergoes a minimum 30-day Alpha playtesting period followed by a editing/proofreading period and a 30-day Beta playtesting period and final editing, shout :censored: :censored:
Dave2 02-09-04, 11:49 PM	Just do what Star wars does. Wounds -1 to 9 dying Dc 10 to stabilize. -10 wounds dead. Any attack reduces you to -10 wounds you are dead. Really do not understand why they did not leave it like this in the first place. Dave
MadBlue 02-10-04, 04:26 AM	Originally posted by arcady No. I expect them to playtest major issues and minor frequent issues. I expect them to ensure the rule can be used as is in normal play under normal play scenerios.The "major issues" are with damage systems that D&D isn't designed to use. If Damage Saves or WP/VP are to work smoothly in D&D, the whole game would have to be redesigned to work around them, and that's well beyond the scope of UA. Like I suggested before, Damage Saves and WP/VP are probably in UA primarily so other publishers can use those systems in their own d20 products. MadBlue
Acear 02-10-04, 08:54 AM	I vote the go ahead and release it. Every book they release gets the same comments. Personally, I have never found anyones reviews of WOTC books that helpful. I'm going to have to make my choices alone.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-10-04, 09:03 AM	I'm going to get the book, based off what I have seen so far. It doesn't matter if something is either broken or playtested to perfection, I'm still gonna house rule it to something I like better. (Anyone claiming the Oberoni fallacy on me gets an adamantine warhammer to the crotch, I know the damn fallacy, Oberoni is a good friend of mine. This ain't the fallacy.)
Jack Daniel 02-10-04, 10:14 AM	I've been using wounds & vitality in D&D for a long time. It works like a charm, and it took about a page and a half of "re-working the whole system" to get it right.
The Simple Seeker II 02-10-04, 12:54 PM	Well, well... after many years of variant rules, stuff and other things used by everyone. It is seeing print. I have to say, I am one of those players, that like to see growth from a gaming stand point, character evolution and the whole nine yards. Everyone here, has their dislikes and likes...a natural progression, but in fairness, all this stuff have been sitting in the dark homes, closed closets and tie up boxes for a lonnnnnng time. Now...it is coming out. Some DMs will or will not like it. Stat players will go crazy, and true roleplayers will be challenged to seek a balance perception on how to handle all this new/old material. I was wondering for some time now, on what they were bringing out..and now, I have seen a preview from EnWorld and some here (small bits)...I have to wonder in thought (as stated by a previous poster)...all the propose material has not been played tested in proper form. My answer to that, is...it has been done so for years. As a Example, I am using the Racial Levels for a Elven Paladin, it helped rounded out her background as a Elf and as a paladin. In her original creation, there was no room to show her elvish background...not one peep. And I must say, it define her more clearly to me, than looking at the setup with nothing to show, maybe one or three skills relfecting her Olven background...now that is up to 12, plus the 10 skills catergory coming from the paladin. Although there are good benefits, there are also bad, someone told me, in doing that, the racial addition has to be treated as a class level....so, when was playing a race, when did it become a profession? I will wait and see what the UA says, but I suspect it will be what the detractor said on using on that stuff. As with the other stuff, spells point system, action points, and the other goodies or bad stuff in the book. It is showing that the gaming system is growing up...and honestly, it has to...stagantion is a deadly disease and I think none of us here...want to catch that. So, to the old, very old fashion DMs, yes you...it is your right to refuse what is not suited to your taste....but in the end, progress cannot be denied. Final note: There is no reason for a 4.0 Edition...it is already here, in the Unearthed Arcana:D
MadBlue 02-11-04, 04:47 AM	Originally posted by Jack Daniel I've been using wounds & vitality in D&D for a long time. It works like a charm, and it took about a page and a half of "re-working the whole system" to get it right. Sure, but how much of that page and a half says "see p XX in SWRPG"? And how "non-standard" is the campaign that you're using the WP/VP rules in? Do you use other variants as well to make WP/VP run smoother? All I'm suggesting is that if D&D were approached with M&M's damage system or WP/VP in mind it (especially the spells) would be a lot different from, and run a lot smoother than what you can get with the core rules and a few pages of variants, since the system would be designed from the ground up with a different system of rules in mind. MadBlue
Katowice 02-11-04, 10:15 AM	I prefer the "Massive Damage Threshold" system from d20 Modern: Massive Damage Any time a character takes damage from a single hit that exceeds the character’s massive damage threshold, that damage is considered massive damage. A character’s massive damage threshold is equal to the character’s current Constitution score; it can be increased by taking the Improved Damage Threshold feat. When a character takes massive damage that doesn’t reduce his or her hit points to 0 or lower, the character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). If the character fails the save, the character’s hit point total is immediately reduced to –1. If the save succeeds, the character suffers no ill effect beyond the loss of hit points. Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to the effects of massive damage. (reference: d20 Modern SRD http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) Skimming the rest of the damage rules, it doesn't require any other modifications, as massive damage is already an optional rule in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Originally posted by Jack Daniel I've been using wounds & vitality in D&D for a long time. It works like a charm, and it took about a page and a half of "re-working the whole system" to get it right.
JohnSnow 02-11-04, 02:51 PM	Anybody other than me check out the EnWorld boards recently? Some of the Germans have gotten a hold of UA and posted some more information about its contents... Personally I'm drooling over the "Three Generic Classes" of Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster. Essentially, they seem like good solid BASIC classes for a, dare I say it, Low-Magic campaign! Multiclassing between the three is, apparently, encouraged. Essentially, the Warrior is fighter-esque, the Expert is Rogue-like, and the spellcaster is like a mage/sorceror with access to the ENTIRE spell list. Racial paragon classes also look interesting. Heck, the whole BOOK looks interesting.:drool: When's it gonna be available in the US, damnit?? We wants it, yes we does...our PRECIOUS!!:bow: :bow:
Witchdoctor 02-11-04, 05:44 PM	JohnSnow When's it gonna be available in the US, damnit?? We wants it, yes we does...our PRECIOUS!! I have heard that the 13th of February is the street date here in the States. I called the local Barnes and Noble and the bookseller couldn't even find it in their computer. *shrugs* Has anyone gotten some form of "confirmation" from their store of choice regarding the availability date of this book? I have cleared my schedule in anticipation!
The Simple Seeker II 02-11-04, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Witchdoctor I have heard that the 13th of February is the street date here in the States. I called the local Barnes and Noble and the bookseller couldn't even find it in their computer. *shrugs* Has anyone gotten some form of "confirmation" from their store of choice regarding the availability date of this book? I have cleared my schedule in anticipation! LOL, LOL, LOL....., well as far I have seen, a comic book store in New Jersey, got their's.:D
The Simple Seeker II 02-11-04, 06:03 PM	Ignore, due to lag on server
The Simple Seeker II 02-11-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by JohnSnow Anybody other than me check out the EnWorld boards recently? Some of the Germans have gotten a hold of UA and posted some more information about its contents... Personally I'm drooling over the "Three Generic Classes" of Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster. Essentially, they seem like good solid BASIC classes for a, dare I say it, Low-Magic campaign! Multiclassing between the three is, apparently, encouraged. Essentially, the Warrior is fighter-esque, the Expert is Rogue-like, and the spellcaster is like a mage/sorceror with access to the ENTIRE spell list. Racial paragon classes also look interesting. Heck, the whole BOOK looks interesting.:drool: When's it gonna be available in the US, damnit?? We wants it, yes we does...our PRECIOUS!!:bow: :bow: My God!!!....what with the...(drip, drip)...drooling....I am seeing people here going (drip, drip) bonkers on a book...yes a book. It feels like the second (drip, drip) coming of the D&D reborn. Like The True D&D...(drip, drip)....here...(giving away towels)...now, (drip, drip) clean that up. Mercy, the entire Monitor is floating...in dribble, (drip, drip):drool:
The Simple Seeker II 02-11-04, 06:06 PM	Ignore, due to lag on server
Griff_Goodbeard 02-12-04, 11:00 AM	I picked up a copy yesterday and let me say:OMG! I spent all last night reading through it and am really excited to try out some of the varients in the campain I'm in. Especially(sp) the racial paragons, bloodlines, and domain wizards. The battle sorcerer look interesting also. They were right in the into though, way too much stuff to use it all. Should be a lot of fun.:drool: -Griff
The Simple Seeker II 02-12-04, 11:20 AM	Originally posted by Griff_Goodbeard I picked up a copy yesterday and let me say:OMG! I spent all last night reading through it and am really excited to try out some of the varients in the campain I'm in. Especially(sp) the racial paragons, bloodlines, and domain wizards. The battle sorcerer look interesting also. They were right in the into though, way too much stuff to use it all. Should be a lot of fun.:drool: -Griff Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......here...(giving away towels) (someone should change the thread's title to the DROOLING on UA) Euuuuuhhhhh....my monitor is floating away....
Griff_Goodbeard 02-12-04, 11:49 AM	Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......here...(giving away towels) (someone should change the thread's title to the DROOLING on UA) :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Yeah I'll take one of those towel, don't want to get any drool on the book. :D
The Simple Seeker II 02-12-04, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by Griff_Goodbeard :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Yeah I'll take one of those towel, don't want to get any drool on the book. :D Damn it...my monitor is still floating away...
narfi78 02-12-04, 04:36 PM	Originally posted by Witchdoctor I have heard that the 13th of February is the street date here in the States. I called the local Barnes and Noble and the bookseller couldn't even find it in their computer. *shrugs* Has anyone gotten some form of "confirmation" from their store of choice regarding the availability date of this book? I have cleared my schedule in anticipation! I personally work at Barnes & Noble, and know why they couldn't find it. They need to either enter "D&D Unearthed Arcana" in the title field, or do a keyword search. BTW, the date we have is 2/28/04.
stonehill_troll 02-12-04, 10:41 PM	It looks like it is in stock at Amazon Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours
GishFarm 02-12-04, 11:01 PM	Just ordered mine from walmart.com It says shipping in 1 business day. And total price was only $25 with tax and shipping. This is it! (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?cat=18786&dept=3920&product_id=2388239&path=0%3A3920%3A18786%3A18788%3A18790%3A 21196)
Previn 02-13-04, 02:27 PM	Originally posted by narfi78 I personally work at Barnes & Noble, and know why they couldn't find it. They need to either enter "D&D Unearthed Arcana" in the title field, or do a keyword search. BTW, the date we have is 2/28/04. From B&N, after I ordered it yesterday: QTY PRICE TITLE Expected Ship Date ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 $24.46 D&D Unearthed Arcana ISBN:xxxxxxxxxxx Feb 14, 2004
Kaya Kenobi 02-14-04, 12:01 AM	I actually read the book in full before deciding to order it... Let me put it this way: The alternate races are ok.. Gestalt Classes should be steered clear of. Domain Wizards is actually nifty. Prestige Bards and Paladins seem a little underpowered. And the Vitality Points irks me.
stone_dog 02-14-04, 12:04 AM	Anybody want to give the lowdown on the Injury system?
Shatteredtower 02-14-04, 02:17 AM	I would, but it's going to be weeks before I can look at this book objectively. WEEKS, I SAY! I will say this for it: time and again, there is mention of how using this or that variant is going to change the existing balances in the game. Maybe they're incorrect about how it will change things, and maybe they'll have missed more significant changes that someone will discover and REVEAL TO ALL in two weeks, but they show they were looking. I don't care for the gestalt class rules myself, but I can see how they can work for certain players, especially in games with few players. They took the time to show how this changes the CR curve and to advise those who implement such a system on how to restore some balance to it (and to show how that will change other facets of the game, and how to balance that, if you are concerned with the resulting change). Some might consider that proof that the ideas are bad, since you may end up having to patch things around your nifty new addition to the game. I'm not so sure. A lot of the stuff in there is going to be broken down by people with spread sheets and calculators, but ultimately the "proof" is going to come down to trial and error. What will make your game more fun? What bogs it down? What results in certain other facets of your game becoming neglected? What results in what you, as DMs and/or players, consider to be an unacceptable level of min/maxing or powergaming by others at your table? (For example, if you use the rules for recharging wands, some players will never have anything to do with low level potions or scrolls again. Some people may be fine with that and others, like myself, would have concerns.) See what I mean? I'm thinking, but I'm not ready to discuss anything in there rationally yet. It's just more than I can take in right now. This alone makes me happy for some gluttonous reason.
aldymnor 02-14-04, 03:42 AM	Originally posted by stone_dog Anybody want to give the lowdown on the Injury system? I'm bored and it turns out, all this stuff is Open Content. First, if you get hit for damage, it's divided by five. This becomes your damage factor. (you round up.) Your damage factor added to 15 becomes a fortitude save. Ergo, if you take 12 damage and divide it by 5, rounding up, it's 3. 3 is then added to 15 and you get your final DC of 18. I imagine this gets quicker once you get used to it. Then it's divided into Lethal and Nonlethal. If you succeeded that save above, just ignore everything from here on out. Lethal damage: If you miss the save by 1-9 points, you are considered "Hit." If you miss it by more, you are considered "Disabled." See respective descriptions later. Nonlethal damage: If you miss it by 1-9 points, you are considered "Nonlethal Hit." If you miss it by more, you are considered "Staggered." Hit: A hit means you've suffered a minor injury, and you are imposed a cumulative -1 penalty to each subsequent fortitude roll to resist damage in this system. If you're "disabled," you become "dying" after getting "Hit." Disabled: You're conscious but you can only take a move or standard action each turn. You move at half speed, and the only Standard action you can take without worsening to "Dying" is a healing action. Ie. if you shoot an arrow, your status goes to "dying." Again, if you get "Hit," while disabled, you become "dying." 5 points of healing can restore you from this. Dying: as far as I can tell, this is a lot like being at -1 Hit points. basically you take a fort save that increases linearly by 1 each round, starting at 10, and should you fail, you die. If you fail by only five, you do nothing. If you succeed by five you become unconscious but stable. If you succeed by 10, you go back to "Disabled." Takes someone else a heal check of DC 15 to get you back on your feat. Nonlethal Hit: Well, this is just like Hit. The difference is, let's say you have 3 hits and 4 nonlethal hits. When you save vs. lethal damage next time, you only take a -3 penalty. When you save vs. nonlethal damage next time, you take both penalties, adding to -7. Nonlethal cumulates easier, and you go to "Staggered" if you fail this save. Staggered Is like being disabled, except your condition can only worsen to "unconscious." you can be both at the same time. 5 points of healing brings you back from both, simultaneously. Unconscious: You're out for the count. Now, healing works a little different. a night's rest revives 1 "hit" per 2 character levels. Nonlethal hits recover at 1 "hit" per hour per two character levels. 5 magic points of healing = 1 "hit". The feat "fast healing" gives you a +2 fort to become stable, and you can eliminate 1 of each hit point type per round. I think i covered it.
Ranger REG 02-14-04, 04:01 AM	Yep, it's almost like the Mutants & Masterminds Damage Saving Throw System. I'm skeptical about the additional step in combat resolution to determine Damage Factor, though.
aldymnor 02-14-04, 04:28 AM	First of all, these reviews are coming from me. I'm almost 21, I've played since I was 7 and due to economic complications, I've actually played 1e, 1e advanced, 2e (advanced but duh), 3e, and 3.5. I abhored 2nd edition as being too unweildy and limited. I actively advocate 3.5 but I think WotC should have been decent and provided paperback booklets outlining all the changes, for say a low price of $10. If your product is broken, be classy. Fix it yourself. I currently DM one group and play in another. both play 3.5. That's me as a gamer, as far as you guys need to know. If you want my overall opinion, skip past this stuff in bold. You'll know the opinion part. The races bore me. I've never been a fan of weird-ass races. I do own savage species, but that was so I could build some races in my campaign setting that weren't specifically meant to be played. Yes, all the races bore me. Most the illustrations in this section are good. Bloodlines are ok. Kind of a nice idea. Paragons are annoying, to me; they seem like trifling little details that honestly could be encompassed with roleplaying rather than physics. I love a Class Section. Variant classes turn me on to near-embarrassing levels. Some of them I could care less for, but god, from a DM's point of view, these things are great to add flavor in any situation. I think fighting styles could have been done cooler, but these are fine. The paladin thing annoys me by name only. I want to make love to battle sorcerers. Domain wizards are cute I guess. But the variant specialists are awesome. I want that necromancer on page 61 to do things to me. The prestigious thing was kinda nice, but come on. Bard? Here's the rundown on Gestalt: even them out by halving experience and doubling CRs. Seriously, this is just a way to adjust power in the whole setting. It's basically broadening the gamut of power between commoner and god. Commoners don't get more powerful, but adventurers do and thus do the villains and challenges. It's for a more dynamic game. I honestly want to partake in it, and really, really kill the experience down to almost nothing so the characters last a long time. Generic classes are awesome. I would like them to elaborate or maybe show more by example. Building Characters is very tasty. The alternate skill systems are ok. I like the complex checks idea but I skimmed it something fierce for now. I like how in-depth they made it. Traits are awesome. I want these so much. My favorites are absent-minded, and stout. I always liked the idea of a stout cleric. Flaws are hillarious. They're like anti-feats and you can get extra feats in their stead. Spelltouched seems a little much for me. Feats that coincide with being exposed to a spell. Nice for story effect, IMO. I wish weapon groups were released in the PhB. It's hard to integrate and it makes a lot more sense. I love craft points. I think they're very handy. They're little points given at every level to reduce the cost of creation in both time and experience terms (and gold? need to double check that later.) Character background is awesome. Essentially, it's just a helpful way to make a character, but it's pretty good when you're having a night of brain flatulance. Armor as DR - very basic and I'm considering using it. half the AC goes to DR is the basic rule. The injury system annoys me but that's only because I'm not used to it. The post above describes it in detail. Vitality and wounds.. eh. Reserve is odd. What I really prefer is the sidebar somewhere that describes healing as making lethal into nonlethal; I think that's not only wildly "realistic" but I want to use it. Facing is too much. Action points are cute but eh. Players rolling, bell curve.. nice but not for me. the illustration on 134 is less than tasteful to me. Magic; thank God it got a makeover. I've played D&D for 14 years. I hate the preparation thing. Go away, preparation. Come to papa, magic points. And I play mages a LOT. So... Magic ratings is kind of overpowered. I don't get what it's supposed to fix. The less you focus in magic, the less powerful it is. Makes sense to me. Summon monster spells suck. Variants suck. Didn't even read over it. Talk about your close-mindedness ;) I said it already; spell points rule. spell points 4teh win. Recharge is kinda cool.. it seems really overpowered but i'll admit that i just scanned it. The item section of this section annoys me. Incantations are kinda cool. They're right out of UA; spells for non-spellcasters. I'd make em rare as hell if I were DM. Campaigns; I love me some this section. Well ok. I'm just gonna review the whole thing as is. It has good illustrations, the concepts are almost necessary and I couldn't get enough of the insanity thing (being an oldschool rifts player.) OVERALL OPINION: This is the first WotC book I've bought in a while that I really felt was necessary and worth the price. Complete Warrior should have been paperback, and the Draconomicon was just embarrassing to me. Do I recommend this? More than any other non-core book, yes. It's a spectacular collection of useful tools and ideas.
Kaya Kenobi 02-14-04, 04:54 AM	Originally posted by aldymnor First of all, these reviews are coming from me. I'm almost 21, I've played since I was 7 and due to economic complications, I've actually played 1e, 1e advanced, 2e (advanced but duh), 3e, and 3.5. I abhored 2nd edition as being too unweildy and limited. I actively advocate 3.5 but I think WotC should have been decent and provided paperback booklets outlining all the changes, for say a low price of $10. If your product is broken, be classy. Fix it yourself. I currently DM one group and play in another. both play 3.5. How bout free?
Kaya Kenobi 02-14-04, 04:57 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi How bout free? http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/dnd/dnd-revised.htm - List of every change http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a
aldymnor 02-14-04, 05:57 AM	I don't mean the list of changes. I have that and it's nice. I mean every change, well organized and in a little booklet so I don't have three pieces of crap in my closet right now. Free isn't too realistic in the world of print. We got used to it in software but software is transferrable online. I mean, with the $10 idea, they might as well produce the electronic version for free, but it's always nice to cater to the non-internet-saavy crowd. That's all I have to say on that and since this thread is on Unearthed Arcana, let's take it up in Private Messages if you wish to discuss it further. :) Nice of you to be helpful though.
The White Sorcerer 02-14-04, 05:58 AM	I just got the book. I liked it before I even opened it. The black covers look kinda cool. Andy Collins is absolutely right. This is a lot to take in. Why don't I have a fire hose at home? So far I've liked what I've read. The enviromental race variants, I think, will be good for Eberron due to the lack of subraces. Now, if you'll excardon me while I continue going insane due to the vast amount of coolness. :twitch:
The Simple Seeker II 02-14-04, 08:33 AM	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer I just got the book. I liked it before I even opened it. The black covers look kinda cool. Andy Collins is absolutely right. This is a lot to take in. Why don't I have a fire hose at home? So far I've liked what I've read. The enviromental race variants, I think, will be good for Eberron due to the lack of subraces. Now, if you'll excardon me while I continue going insane due to the vast amount of coolness. :twitch: (Sharing the coolness....):D
Aeolius 02-14-04, 08:46 AM	I started an undersea campaign in 1998. I already have aquatic dwarves, goblins, half-orcs, and kobolds in the game. Needless to say, I don't mind WotC releasing products with more aquatic content, as that may encourage more DMs to create undersea adventures and more players to seek them out.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-14-04, 09:18 AM	Well, living in Utah, I'll be lucky to see it by the 18th. But I have one big question.... WOTC put up a checklist online for download. Some variant checklist. If you look at it, it lists there being stuff to pages like 300 +. But the checklist shows up like pages 201 - 203. What's in it from pages 203 - 300+??? The checklist doesn't list ANYTHING between these pages.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-14-04, 10:11 AM	Perhaps this might compensate for Andy's shapechange fiasco. (Su abilities my aunt fanny!) And the Bares and Noble in my area doesn't have it, or else I'd have it right now. Neither does Books-a-million, but they never have anything in stock, they got too many fundies giving them crap around here. (A friend of mine is a manager there, he's used to having people calling him up giving him long lectures on why they shouldn't have certain books on their shelves, then he puts them there out of spite.)
Harmony's Sorrow 02-14-04, 10:23 AM	PLEASE... someone that owns the book already, what's between pages 200 - 300 (ish?) DYING TO KNOW... I read the Variant checklist each night before I go to bed and fall asleep imagining how much cool stuff will be in this book!!! God, I really am a geek.
NilesB 02-14-04, 11:29 AM	page 200-210: sanity continued page 210-213: test based prerequisites page 213-215: level-independent XP awards page 216-218: afterword page 219-221: variant checklist page 222: open game licence page 223-224: index
Harmony's Sorrow 02-14-04, 11:36 AM	THANKS!!!! Appreciate you Niles. But that leads me into another question... What are test based prerequisites? Example? Please?
NilesB 02-14-04, 02:23 PM	Test based based prerequisites replace the standard prerequisites for prestige classes and/or feats withsome apropriate in character test or herioc feat (not in the rules sense). For example a prospective Arcane archer may need to pass "the test of 12 arrows" to demonstate his skill with the bow using arrows which he has emkpowered with magic weapon himself.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-14-04, 03:22 PM	Thanks again Niles!!! That is SOOO awesome!
Dave2 02-15-04, 02:13 PM	Here is my quick fix for the Wound Vitality System in Unearthed. Simply say that when a targeted is reduced to 0 wounds, if it takes wound damage equal to its current Con score from a single attack it is dead. No saves. Two ways you could do this. First, allow the damage from the attack that reduced the target to 0 wounds flow throught to equal the Targets Current Con score to kill them on that attack. Example if a Hill Giant was at 10 wound points left and con 19, and was hit with a fireball that did 34 points of wound damage the Hill Giant would be dead due to the flow through damage. 10-34=24 which is greater than the giants con score of 19. Dead The Second way is not to allow flow through damage from the attack that reduces the the target to 0 Wounds. The dmage stops at 0 wounds as normal. The difference is if the Hill Giant is hit with any attack that does 19 wound damage it is dead. No saves. Regardless of what stage it is at. Disabled dying ect. So using the above example, the Hill Giant with the 10 wound points and 19 con would not be killed from the attack. The Fireball would reduce the Hill Giant to 0 wounds 10-34=-24. Remember no flow through damage so the damage stops at 0 wounds. Hill Giant would make fortitude save as normal Dc 15. However, the difference is that now if the Hill Giant is hit with any single attack that does 19 wounds (equal to its current con) it is dead regardless of what stage it is in. No Saves. One way is more cinematic. No flow through damage. The other is more gritty. Flow through damage. This is just my quick fix to prevent wound damage not mattering after being reduced to 0 wounds.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-15-04, 02:26 PM	Going to go insane if I can't find this book soon...
Keegantir 02-15-04, 04:32 PM	Since my book won't arive for at least a week. What is the exp cost of buying off a level adjustment? I know you have to get 7 levels before you can buy off 1LA, but what is the exp cost?
Perun 02-15-04, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Keegantir Since my book won't arive for at least a week. What is the exp cost of buying off a level adjustment? I know you have to get 7 levels before you can buy off 1LA, but what is the exp cost? I asked this over on EN Boards today, and Tarril Wolfeye was kind enough to provide an answer. It's like this: After earning three times as much level as your LA, you can pay an amount of XP equal to your current (ECL-1) x1000, losing a level, to reduce your LA by 1. You must now earn enough additional level equal to your new LA x3 to become eligible for the next reduction to your LA by 1. This goes on until you have reduced your LA to 0. You must buy your LA reductions as soon as they become available. Example: a drow (LA +2) gets his reductions at character level 6 (ECL 8 - cost 7000 XP) then again at character level 9 (ECL 10 - cost 9000 XP). Regards!
AbsentMindedProfessor 02-15-04, 06:45 PM	Can anyone give a bit of info on Item Familiars? I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a bit now, and wanted to know what WotC has come up with. Details would be nice, if anyone has time.
The Simple Seeker II 02-15-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow Going to go insane if I can't find this book soon... Here, take the blue or red pill. One of them will aid you quite nicely.:smirk:
Woas 02-15-04, 08:06 PM	I wonder if UA is going to get its own forum like the Draconomicon or something. I mean, technically it isn't a Future Release anymore. Its just a Release. But anyway... Anyone explain the Spelltouched feats? My book is in the mail so I can't read it :cool: If someone already talked about it, then don't worry about it but I do not recall reading about it above.
aldymnor 02-15-04, 08:22 PM	Spelltouched feats: A character who has been the target of a spell sometimes finds that some of its magic rubs off on him or her permanently, leaving an echo of an original spell. For example.. Photosynthetic Skin requires exposure to barkskin. After that, you gain a +2 natural armor bonus when in daylight.
Woas 02-15-04, 08:30 PM	Wow thats a pretty neat-o idea. Thanks aldymor. ...some of these variant rules I read, and just say "Duh, why didn't I think of that." cause some are very flavor intensive, and seem like things I could have though up... hehe... come on UPS, daddy needs his book.
stone_dog 02-15-04, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by aldymnor Photosynthetic Skin requires exposure to barkskin. After that, you gain a +2 natural armor bonus when in daylight. Hmmm... I wasn't too keen on the idea when I just heard the basics of it, but that is an interesting little tidbit. What I find myself more and more curious about is the gestalt classes. Every few weeks I find myself with two players unable to attend and as a side game this little rule looks like it would be fine for two players to roll down into the underdark by theirselves. I might just have to pick up that book tomorrow.
Mutant for Hire 02-16-04, 12:38 AM	Originally posted by AbsentMindedProfessor Can anyone give a bit of info on Item Familiars? I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a bit now, and wanted to know what WotC has come up with. Details would be nice, if anyone has time. The basic idea is that you can take a feat, Item Familiar, and pick a non-charged magic item (i.e. something that doesn't get used up) and make it into a familiar. You can do interesting things like invest spell slots and skill points, even XP points, into it. It can become sentient at a high enough level and start gaining special powers. Of course if the item is ever lost or broken, you're in serious trouble. In some ways, think of Sauron's Ring as an Item Familiar he lost. :)
The White Sorcerer 02-16-04, 01:54 AM	What bothers me about item familiars is the picture. A halfling holding a blade that shines in the presence of orcs. Even the shape of the blade looks familiar.
Xeviat-DM 02-16-04, 01:57 AM	Originally posted by Mutant for Hire The basic idea is that you can take a feat, Item Familiar, and pick a non-charged magic item (i.e. something that doesn't get used up) and make it into a familiar. You can do interesting things like invest spell slots and skill points, even XP points, into it. It can become sentient at a high enough level and start gaining special powers. Of course if the item is ever lost or broken, you're in serious trouble. In some ways, think of Sauron's Ring as an Item Familiar he lost. :) Hmmm, I'm already doing something like this in my campaign. I made a warrior/mage PrC to replace the spellsword/eldritch knight kinds in my setting, where they make a weapon into their familiar. I may have to take some ideas from this.
Wyvern76 02-16-04, 02:51 AM	Everybody keeps mentioning gestalt classes. Could someone please explain to me what they are? Wyvern
Masterful_Norg 02-16-04, 03:18 AM	A gestalt class is one where a character gains abilities from two classes simultaneously. Now you can hybridize classes like the wizard and fighter to get the best of both worlds in a ballanced way. I wish I knew of any specifics. Maybe someone else can help with those.
Wyvern76 02-16-04, 03:37 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg A gestalt class is one where a character gains abilities from two classes simultaneously. Now you can hybridize classes like the wizard and fighter to get the best of both worlds in a ballanced way.Thanks, I had guessed it was something of the sort. Wyvern
aldymnor 02-16-04, 05:56 AM	Gestalt Classes My friends and I just had the pleasure of playing a gestalt campaign. We basically want characters that are much better than a commoner but not much better than our foes, and characters who will last a long time (those about whom you could expect a book to be written). Gestalt characters often are suggested to fight CRs a little higher (perhaps 1 or 2 higher depending on the situation). In our campaign, we opt to decrease the experience by half. This is more drastic than the book suggests (it suggests you take 1 or 2 off the CRs for purposes of experience. It doesn't say ECL which means it's not going to be exactly half, so much as somewhere in between half and full experience.) With Gestalt villains, CRs a little higher, half experience and a long time to develop, I can't honestly see it as unbalanced at all. The idea is, you take the best features of two classes. Let's say you have a 5th level Gestalt Fighter/Wizard. You have a BAB of +5 because the fighter has a better one than a wizard. The Fort and Will saves are good because those are the best features from each class. You can count all the class skills as a class skill. But you only get skill points as a wizard (or the higher skilled class but in this case, they're equal), basically you don't get double skill points. Just the better half. You get the better hit die (d10 in this case). And in this case, you progress in spell development like a wizard. Plus, your familiar gets a wee set of full plate. Ok that's a lie but i really want a cat in full plate :blush:. Gestalt characters are not twice as powerful. It even says so in the book, but if you're smart, you'll notice that it's true. You still have hit points at your level, skill points the same, no ability score bonus, and as the book lists, you don't get any more actions per round. Actions per round are listed as the most valuable currency in D&D. Basically, by my estimation, you're at best about 1.5 times as powerful. You have to divide your attention between two characters' worth of ability scores (try this with a cleric/wizard. You've got charisma, wisdom and int to pay attention to, and that's if you ineptly disregard dexterity and constitution.) You've got gear to consider (few combinations allow for absolute kinds of gear.) That's a messy lowdown of Gestalt characters. I'll be honest; I love them. They have their place. But I certainly recognize they're not every campaign's cup of tea.
Mathuhlu 02-16-04, 07:38 AM	Thanks for the low down. Gesalt classes open up some really interesting ideas, my monk/rogue is looking even better now.:smirk: I wonder how the class abilities would work. There are some really powerful combinations out there, fighter and pretty much anything, so they must be moderated in some way.
Fingers Boggis 02-16-04, 08:04 AM	an idea that came up on ENWorld forums was a high powered wuxia (have a spelt that right) campaign, everyone gets levels of monk and then you pick your other class for the gestalt class. You could even use them to create NINJAS :rolleyes: Fingers
Count Arioch the 28th 02-16-04, 08:26 AM	I most likely will not use gestalt classes in my game, but I gotta admit, that Paladin/monk idea I've been kicking around would be pretty awesome! http://www.angelfire.com/va/vannad/beholder_biggrin.gif
Mathuhlu 02-16-04, 08:36 AM	Ninja, what a perfect way to describe my little backstabbing monk. From the sound of the gesalt classes they're for campaigns with fewer people. Imagine the mess you could cause with only three people in a campaign like that. mmm....Fighter/wizard, cleric/barbarian, rogue/druid :pile:
DarkThoughts24 02-16-04, 09:46 AM	what people forget about gestalt characters is they lack all the feats, saves bab and hitpoints of all those extra leveled characters. but they are nifty to play with. the npc wizard rogue who kept dyin and is now lost his con i think shall be gestalted to keep his versatility.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-16-04, 09:58 AM	"what people forget about gestalt characters is they lack all the feats, saves bab and hitpoints of all those extra leveled characters. but they are nifty to play with. " - DarkThoughts24 What do you mean by this statement? I thought they get the best of both worlds... How do they lack these things?
Kaya Kenobi 02-16-04, 10:25 AM	I would make a 1st level Gestalt character = to an ECL +1. Making it that much a longer wait to level up.. But would that be balanced?
DarkThoughts24 02-16-04, 10:31 AM	the UA has them jsut considering all CR's one level lower. higher ecl or lower cr experience it still takes them longer to go up compared to standard class characters. they get the best of both worlds but really they also dont get to do them as well as a straight fighter or a straight wizards. you get the best number of skillpoints but find you need to split them between two class lists, you get the same amount of feats as a straight fighter if you gestalted with that but not all your feats can focus on fighting or else your magic suffers. wizard monk forced to choose between eschew material components or improved grapple etc. a standard 3.5 multiclass is a high powered character. a gestalt much like the mystic theurge is a swiss army knife and not a powerhouse
Mathuhlu 02-16-04, 10:33 AM	I wouldn't bother with anything like that. I'm only planning on using gesalt characters in campaigns made for them. Then you just need to alter the CRs they face and the XP awards slightly to make them challenging.
Xeviat-DM 02-16-04, 02:03 PM	That Gestalt thing sounds pretty fun.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-16-04, 02:31 PM	How do gestalt work in regard to prestige classes?
Lord Schpungus 02-16-04, 03:25 PM	Only one at a time, and no AT or MT or the like.
Harmony's Sorrow 02-16-04, 03:37 PM	AT? MT? Huh?
aldymnor 02-16-04, 03:46 PM	Only one PrC at a time. It doesn't matter what AT or MT stand for, but I think MT is Mystic Theurge. Edit; only one PrC at a time. You can have a fighter / Mystic Theurge.
Vanigo 02-16-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 the UA has them jsut considering all CR's one level lower. higher ecl or lower cr experience it still takes them longer to go up compared to standard class characters. they get the best of both worlds but really they also dont get to do them as well as a straight fighter or a straight wizards. you get the best number of skillpoints but find you need to split them between two class lists, you get the same amount of feats as a straight fighter if you gestalted with that but not all your feats can focus on fighting or else your magic suffers. wizard monk forced to choose between eschew material components or improved grapple etc. a standard 3.5 multiclass is a high powered character. a gestalt much like the mystic theurge is a swiss army knife and not a powerhouse Well, if you want to develop both classes fully, you're not going to be quite as effective at either. However, you don't have to try to develop both classes. If you make a fighter/wizard, then spend all your skill points and normal feats on spellcasting stuff, you'll be able to cast spels just as well as a straight wizard. In fact, you'll be able to cast spells a little bit better, since your high BAB and bonus feats can improve your skill with ray and touch attack spells. Of course, you won't be able to fight nearly as well as a straight fighter.
Kaya Kenobi 02-16-04, 04:12 PM	A fighter/wizard doesn't need much... Just a weapon focus, specialization, and a few other things.. That's it...
Skaboozh 02-16-04, 06:53 PM	AT- Arcane trickster MT- Mystic Theurge The book suggests that prestige classes that simulate two classes at once, like the aforementioned two and the eldritch knight, should probably be disallowed because of the potential balance hazards.
Wander 02-16-04, 09:02 PM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 what people forget about gestalt characters is they lack all the feats, saves bab and hitpoints of all those extra leveled characters. but they are nifty to play with. I think you gain the feats of both classes. That does not mean you gain double the feats gained by character progression (1 or 2 feats at 1st level and an additional feat every three levels thereafter). But if you chose fighter and wizard for your two classes and stayed with those over twenty levels, you would gain 11 fighter feats and 4 wizard feats plus Scribe Scroll because they are class features of the fighter and wizard classes. That's pretty butch. On a personal preference note, I wouldn't bother to balance gestalt PCs with core PCs; I would simply allow all players in a game to make gestalt PCs. I greatly prefer only a few players, as I'm more interested in character development and story than running a game as a series of combats (that's the role of computer RPGs). FWIW.
stone_dog 02-16-04, 09:19 PM	That is right Wander. I just picked the thing up and Gestalt characters get EVERYthing. You get the best hit dice, saves, BAB, skill points, bonus feats, abilities, class skills and spell slots. It is like having a multiclassed character without the hassle of multiclassing. It is SO tempting.. so wonderfully wonderfully tempting... MMmmm... And to Vanigo, you are wrong I am afraid. Ability scores aside, a Gestalt Fighter/Wizard is every bit as fighty AND casty as a fighter or wizard of the same level. My only problem is that I am hoping for 5 players in my next game and all this may be a bit much....
Kaya Kenobi 02-16-04, 09:21 PM	Very true.. I'd rather have 3 players than 6..
Count Arioch the 28th 02-16-04, 09:54 PM	-
stone_dog 02-16-04, 10:01 PM	True enough your Grace, but still. I am picturing a rogueish monk. Stealthy, agile and highly skilled. Not a thief, but the ultimate thief catcher. Jumping, fienting, stunning hard core beatdown champion of the Law. I'll have to be a touch on the chipperside or people will make batman jokes. OH! How can I NOT let my players make these?!? It is just TOO good. It will make them feel SO cocky :smirk:. It is just a joy to think about.
Kaya Kenobi 02-16-04, 10:22 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog True enough your Grace, but still. I am picturing a rogueish monk. Stealthy, agile and highly skilled. Not a thief, but the ultimate thief catcher. Jumping, fienting, stunning hard core beatdown champion of the Law. I'll have to be a touch on the chipperside or people will make batman jokes. OH! How can I NOT let my players make these?!? It is just TOO good. It will make them feel SO cocky :smirk:. It is just a joy to think about. Rogue monk would be a batman, and maybe spiderman.. One LG, the other CG.
Mutant for Hire 02-16-04, 10:33 PM	Gestalt characters are great for a nearly "superheroic" campaign where you have the PCs and a select group of NPCs as standing well above everyone else. Where you have a few mortals who stand clearly above everyone else, the common warriors and magicians and priests. But as everyone said, you have to make all the core PCs gestalt as well as any villains you want to stand out.
PJammaGod 02-17-04, 12:28 AM	It aint released in Australia yet:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: I want that book right now! Oh well kudos to everyone on the boards who previewed it for us poor southerners, now I have an idea of the content and want it all the more. Lewis, all bow before the UA :bow:
Masterful_Norg 02-17-04, 01:32 AM	Scenerio I dreamt up: (The characters meet for the first time to start an adventure) Player 1 (Leon): Behold my versatility, oh fellow adventurers as I have combined both the powerful art of magic and the skills of deception and stealth. Player 2 (Gregault): My versatility is greater for I can cast both the spells of Pelor and the mysterious arcane while turning the souless ones away with my countenance and striking my enemies soundly with mace. Player 3 (Kelvair): None can match my power in combat, for I have combined both the focused skills and abilities of the monk with the blind fury, instinct and endurance of the barbarian! Leon: Wait! That doesn't make sense. Both those disciplines are diametrically opposed and counterpoint to one another. Gregault: I agree. A chaotic lawful Bonk or Marbarian is mutually exclusive. At best you would end up with something nuetral that had neither the abilities of the Barbarian or a monk. Kelvair: Oh come on! I hardly think that any of the abilities of either class are truly dependant on such abstractions like law or chaos. Gregault: I will not stand Idly by while the laws of reason are brocken by the existance of this oxymoronic Barbonk or Monarian. Leon: Perhaps if he had a split personality or something it could work, but only certain abilities would work at certain times. Kelvair: That breaks the spirit of that which is gestalt. A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts. I opt for nuetrality with the abilities of both the Monk and the Barbarian because there is no relationship between a willingness to obey civilization and fast running or rapidly striking an opponent. The same goes for the powerful endurance of a barbarian. Gregault: Don't blame me if you start to fade out of existence. Leon: Can we adventure now?
aldymnor 02-17-04, 02:52 AM	Entertainingly enough, the first combination my rather inept friend suggested was a monk / barbarian. There were only four veins in my head that I was certain wouldn't pop. The others were in serious danger.
Kaya Kenobi 02-17-04, 03:10 AM	monk/bard.. That's the genuine skald.
stone_dog 02-17-04, 03:24 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi monk/bard.. That's the genuine skald. Nah. Same problems as with Barbarians there. Bards can't gain bard levels when they are lawful. They just don't grow well with society trying to prune them into shape I guess. Skald is a fighter-ish/bard type that really should be done with this set up though.
The White Sorcerer 02-17-04, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi monk/bard.. That's the genuine skald. Umm... How? :confused:
aldymnor 02-17-04, 07:46 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi monk/bard.. That's the genuine skald. Due to a backcharge problem and the fact that I forgot my secret word over three years, I can't ever play my account on Dark Age of Camelot again. This post makes me wanna cry! :( Cleric/Monk = ultimate friar. Uh that's if you're being DAoC-ish. If you're just talking historical skalds, ignore everything before the end of this sentence.
DarkThoughts24 02-17-04, 07:27 PM	a skald is more a barbarian bard. i think perhaps kaya got confused with all the "barbonk" talk
Wyvern76 02-18-04, 03:30 AM	Shameless plug: Skald (divine bard) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183062) Wyvern