Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Etiquette_Gnome 02-09-04, 03:15 PM	Does the fact that UA is OGC mean that it will be placed in the SRD?
Ranger REG 02-09-04, 09:15 PM	They MAY. But if they already designated the Open Game Content in Unearthed Arcana, then there is no need to make an SRD version of it.
Seeker95 02-09-04, 10:53 PM	I doubt the UA content will go into the SRD. The labor of stripping out all the word-for-word text would not be worth it. Besides, if the whole thing were put into electronic format, it would be too easy to download, re-format, and publish on your own. I suspect the "book" will not be OGL. Rather, the mechanics will.
Acear 02-10-04, 08:57 AM	Originally posted by Etiquette_Gnome Does the fact that UA is OGC mean that it will be placed in the SRD? More than likely you will see Mechanics show up in the OGC after a year. The fluff parts more than likely will never see that document. But one can hope.
Kaya Kenobi 02-10-04, 09:09 AM	Originally posted by Etiquette_Gnome Does the fact that UA is OGC mean that it will be placed in the SRD? Maybe... Maybe not.
eclipticavatar 02-11-04, 09:26 PM	If it's OGC, that means someone else could put it up on the web.
Ranger REG 02-12-04, 05:04 AM	You are welcome to do that. Just make sure you understand the Open Game License very well, and abide by its specified terms. If you violate the term(s) of the OGL, expect Wizards to send you a nice legal letter. I strongly recommend you have a lawyer to help you translate the legalese.
aldymnor 02-15-04, 06:51 AM	Only thing closed off in the book is listed on the inside printer information page. It seriously looks like aside from the artwork, you can't use Githzerai, Yaun-ti and a few other monster terms. Go nuts. But it's not going to be in the SRD. That's just not WotC's style.
Ardent 02-17-04, 06:41 AM	Originally posted by aldymnor Go nuts. But it's not going to be in the SRD. That's just not WotC's style. Personally, since they put Urban Arcana in the Modern SRD I can't make heads nor tails of WotC's style. I suspect the bulk of mechanics will see the SRD pretty soon (read 3 or 4 months) after its release.
aldymnor 02-17-04, 07:39 AM	Originally posted by Ardent Personally, since they put Urban Arcana in the Modern SRD I can't make heads nor tails of WotC's style. I suspect the bulk of mechanics will see the SRD pretty soon (read 3 or 4 months) after its release. I stand not only corrected, but in gratitude. I didn't hear about the UA getting into D20:M SRD. Thanks :)
Ardent 02-17-04, 07:49 AM	Originally posted by aldymnor I stand not only corrected, but in gratitude. I didn't hear about the UA getting into D20:M SRD. Thanks :) Neither did I. So I was more than a little shocked when I was checking the d20M SRD (away from my home computer) and there it was. I think we're closer to six months on from the release of Urban Arcana, but it does make me feel more certain that Unearthed Arcana will hit the SRD sooner or later.
Myztek 02-17-04, 12:15 PM	WotC made the SRD. Only they have put stuff in it, including their core products. To say that it is not like WotC to put OGC in the SRD is ODD, errr ... odd. I'm not saying I expect the UA to be in the SRD tomorrow, but I'd be a but surprised if it never makes an appearance.
aldymnor 02-17-04, 03:08 PM	Originally posted by Myztek WotC made the SRD. Only they have put stuff in it, including their core products. To say that it is not like WotC to put OGC in the SRD is ODD, errr ... odd. WotC just charged its loyal customers $95 to upgrade a product that they're pretty much willing to admit was broken. They produce almost exclusively in hardback for any significant page count books (unlike Palladium, White Wolf...). I'm not saying they're demons, I'm just saying WotC sure does like to make their buck and giving things away in an SRD didn't strike me as their style. Then I said I stand corrected, so I'm.. defending an obsolete post.. What am I doing?! :behold:
Giant in the Playground 02-17-04, 04:10 PM	I think you guys are confusing OGC for what is released in the SRD. The SRD is an Open Game Content document. Unearthed Arcana is also an Open Game Content document. The material in UA does not need to go into the SRD in order for other publishers to use and benefit from it. I could pick up a copy of UA today and release a book using VP/WP tomorrow. In that respect, UA has already fulfilled the promise to be available for other publishers to use, which was the whole point of it being OGC to begin with. Now, a lot of people confuse the SRD for "D&D for free on the web." That is not it's purpose. It's purpose is to be a listing of what rules from the PHB, DMG, and MM can or cannot be used by other companies creating third party d20/OGL products. The fact that you can look at it for free is merely a perk, at best. Given that the purpose of the SRD is to let companies know what can be used OGL, and that UA is already entirely OGL, there would be no reason whatsoever to put the information from UA into the SRD. They essentially have already released those rules into the Open Content arena, and adding them to the SRD will only depress sales without adding any value to the product or the Open Game concept. In short, it would be redundant.
Ardent 02-18-04, 03:55 AM	Originally posted by Giant in the Playground I think you guys are confusing OGC for what is released in the SRD. Actually, I think that understanding is why the question was raised in the first place. While OGC doesn't always make it into the SRD, the chances are...good. In short, it would be redundant. Just out of curiosity...when has this ever impeded WotC before? ;)
X105_Strike 02-18-04, 05:20 AM	Originally posted by Giant in the Playground I think you guys are confusing OGC for what is released in the SRD. The SRD is an Open Game Content document. Unearthed Arcana is also an Open Game Content document. The material in UA does not need to go into the SRD in order for other publishers to use and benefit from it. I could pick up a copy of UA today and release a book using VP/WP tomorrow. In that respect, UA has already fulfilled the promise to be available for other publishers to use, which was the whole point of it being OGC to begin with. Now, a lot of people confuse the SRD for "D&D for free on the web." That is not it's purpose. It's purpose is to be a listing of what rules from the PHB, DMG, and MM can or cannot be used by other companies creating third party d20/OGL products. The fact that you can look at it for free is merely a perk, at best. Given that the purpose of the SRD is to let companies know what can be used OGL, and that UA is already entirely OGL, there would be no reason whatsoever to put the information from UA into the SRD. They essentially have already released those rules into the Open Content arena, and adding them to the SRD will only depress sales without adding any value to the product or the Open Game concept. In short, it would be redundant. So...If I were to type out(poor me) UA word for word and release it, would be in violation of the OGL??? What about if I only release the rules??
aldymnor 02-18-04, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by X105_Strike So...If I were to type out(poor me) UA word for word and release it, would be in violation of the OGL??? What about if I only releases the rules?? Yes it would be in violation. If you only.. "releases" the rules, you're better but not perfect. It lists things that aren't OGC, such as Githyanki, Githzerai etc. If you avoid mentioning Gith, for example, you're fine. All the things that aren't OGC are listed in the first page (the credits page.) The SRD is something totally else. It's like what can be permanently considered "Open Content," and usable with any product. Essentially, the SRD is free and Open Content, you have to obtain a copy of wherever it came from.
stilleon 02-20-04, 07:57 PM	The rules themselves are not copywritable. Only product identity stuff that is not included (like the Githyanki). What is in the SRD is compltely reprintable, but what is missing is it's flair when read in the PH or DMG. That is copywritable and copying would be plagarism. That is why the classes in the SRD are missinf tons of descriptive text. Copy those word for word and you got plagarism. With the SRD all is in a safe harbor to copy and use. But would a pro company use it as is. Yes, if they want to bore people. Pro companies rewrite it all to fit their game world. Almost all of UA is open gaming except a few things. Can you copy the text verbatim... maybe... but why bother. When you write your book rewrite it so it fits your book. You could put the rules for bloodlines in, for instance, but you better explain why this is this way in your world, not simply cuz it is a cool rule. I have the SRD's downloaded for reference (I copy rules and paste them into my character sheet for printing) and they convey the rules very well, but I also have the hardcovers because they are a good read and convey the style of the game. That is the important thing. BTW: Mongoose Publishing has printed the Mongoose Pocket Player's Handbook 3.5. It is a nicely laid out version of all the PH material and is very usable... except for the awful awful awful index. Almost White Wolf Games index bad. Also, it isn't pocket size. Its a medium sized trade paperback. I'd love to see a real pocket handbood, mass market paperback with like 500 pages, small type and $9.95.
Kaya Kenobi 02-20-04, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by stilleon BTW: Mongoose Publishing has printed the Mongoose Pocket Player's Handbook 3.5. It is a nicely laid out version of all the PH material and is very usable... except for the awful awful awful index. Almost White Wolf Games index bad. Also, it isn't pocket size. Its a medium sized trade paperback. I'd love to see a real pocket handbood, mass market paperback with like 500 pages, small type and $9.95. That's pretty bad.. And I would like to see those pocket books again, too...
aldymnor 02-20-04, 10:02 PM	Originally posted by stilleon The rules themselves are not copywritable. Only product identity stuff that is not included (like the Githyanki). http://www.loc.gov Yeah they are, but only by WotC. It's intellectual property, which makes it copyrightable. Very little isn't copyrightable; mostly titles, names and things like that. Those are trademarkable. It makes sense that they're leaving this as open content. They do hold trademarks on Githyanki, Githzerai, the title "Unearthed Arcana" and some other titles, stuff like that. See page 2 for that information.
stilleon 02-21-04, 12:22 AM	From the SRD FAQ's: Q: Can game rules be copyright? A: In the United States, the rules of games cannot be copyright. The law may be different in other countries, but most countries are signatures to the Bern Convention on Copyrights, and under the terms of the BCC, the rules of games cannot be copyright. If you have questions about your ability to apply the copyright law to a game, consult your legal counsel. If games rules could be copyright Hackmaster would be in serious trouble. The purpose of the SRD is to be a safe harbor. If you copy anything from it you can be sure it does not contain any copyright material. Notice the spell called Floating Disk. In the PH it is called Tenser's Floating Disk. The Tenser character is covered under copyright. This is why in OGL books they can list the experience table even though it is not in the SRD. If you put one in your book you can publish it under the OGL, but you cannot use the d20 logo. This is also why, why back in during 1st Ed. AD&D I bought several unofficial expansions. They never said AD&D on it, though it was obvious, right down to the experience tables, it was compatible. If rules could be copyright they would be illegal. This sort of thing is kind of like reverse engineering. They would have a class with a health die instead of hit dice (still called HP), health points, defense class (armor class). If I was a publisher, to use a rule, say a new feat listed in Dragon (none of which is released under the OGL), I would re-write it in new words and give it a new name (because the name may be, somehow, a product identity). I am not an attorney so don't consider this advice. Before you do it you should check with a licensed attorney. As for new stuff in the SRD, from the SRD FAQ on Wizards: Q: Will there be additional sections added to the SRD? A: Yes. Q: When? A: Additions to the SRD should become a fairly regular occurrence. The intention is to add major subsystems and content from various releases over time. Wizards must first extract their contents into an SRD format, review that content with the RPG Research & Development team for errors, omissions, and things we do not wish to license as Open Game Content, and then we will add it to the SRD.
stilleon 02-21-04, 12:31 AM	Oh, from the SRD FAQ, why you have to be careful and the safe harbor is needed: Q: Why does every RPG product I own claim a copyright for the publisher? A: RPGs are more complex than just rules for games. A typical RPG includes substantial material that is not "rules for a game". The line between the copyrightable portion and uncopyrightable portion of a particular product is very blurry and under U.S. copyright law, is left to a court to interpret in the event of a lawsuit.
Ranger REG 02-21-04, 01:10 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi That's pretty bad.. And I would like to see those pocket books again, too... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173196&perpage=30&pagenumber=2 That's why I don't come here for any legal matter concerining IP law, SRDs, OGCs, and Wizards' royalty-free licenses. AFAIC, SRD is still copyrighted material. You just need the Open Gaming License to re-use them. The OGL is a not blanket permission to use a product's material. You are bound by the terms of the OGL when re-using OGC material (and only OGC) and/or contributing original material you wish to designate as OGC. You are also bound by the term of the OGL not to use designated PI (except those that you wish to contribute as your own, so that others cannot use them). And lastly, when re-using other source's OGC, you are bound to list them on Section 15 Copyright Notice. Of course, as my disclaimer said, I'm not a lawyer, so take the above as just friendly NON-LEGAL advice.
stilleon 02-21-04, 01:38 AM	I made a mistake in my wording. By saying that the SRD contains no copyright content I actually meant NO PRODUCT IDENTITY. You are confusing the words with the rules. Those wordings are copyright. But the rules are not. By rules I am taking about the mechanical, mathematical and processes that make up a game. The writing is under copyright. The names are trademarks. The mechanics would covered under patents, except that these mechanics are not patentable for various reasons. How long have dice based probability rolls been around? How many other games use them. How many of those games use target numbers like d20's DC? Like I said, I could make a whole system based on the d20 mechanic (d20 + modifiers vs. DC) (which was used by Palladium first). I might need to use clean names (Defense Class again). But the rules, which was the question, the mechanics (rules) are not copywritable. And certain things are in the public domain. Elves, Fey, dragons, etc. A longsword is public domain.
tec-goblin 02-21-04, 05:17 AM	Yippie!!! Yes yes yes I wanted this to be SRD!
Thrudjelmer 02-21-04, 12:23 PM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi That's pretty bad.. And I would like to see those pocket books again, too... Anyone ever see those 1st Edition AD&D reprints in pocket-size? The print was super fine --but still readable, and they had soft covers... but otherwise was an exact copy of the originals, word for word with all art intact. The books were (I'm guesstimating) about 3 inches tall by 2½ inches wide and varied in thickness depending on which book it was. I don't know where mine are, but I know I still have my mini-DMG and mini-Legends & Lore somewhere in the house. I'd like to see the 3.5 rules printed in REAL pocket-size like those!
Ranger REG 02-21-04, 07:08 PM	That is going to be one THICK book if you print it in 2x3 format (I'm guessing 4 inches thick). Mongoose Publishing was able to do it in 4x6.
Ranger REG 02-21-04, 07:13 PM	Originally posted by stilleon I made a mistake in my wording. By saying that the SRD contains no copyright content I actually meant NO PRODUCT IDENTITY. Technically, it does if you include the Legal Section of the SRD, which designate a lot of terms, including the unfortunate "Player's Handbook." And certain things are in the public domain. Elves, Any elf (including Santa's little helpers), but not D&D version of the elf, nor Tolkien's (owned by Tolkien Estate/Tolkien Enterprise), nor that Will Farrell character.
Thrudjelmer 02-21-04, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG That is going to be one THICK book if you print it in 2x3 format (I'm guessing 4 inches thick). Really small print.
Ranger REG 02-22-04, 08:40 PM	Even with small print, it will be at least 3.5 inches thick :D
Eryndel 02-22-04, 09:06 PM	Any thought if we might see 3rd party distributors putting together a "Pocket Unearthed Arcana," essentially all the option minus the PI and art, and undercutting sales? I believe this would be legal according to OGC but I'm not a lawyer. Werner
Xorial 02-23-04, 10:24 AM	I cant remember were I read the statement, but one of the designers that works on updating the SRD, said the UA will eventually be in the SRD. He also stated that he has other projects going on now, so it may be awhile. i belive that I followed a thread posted on the ENWorld site a week or 2 ago.
theDwarf 02-23-04, 11:41 PM	Originally posted by stilleon If games rules could be copyright Hackmaster would be in serious trouble. Why would a LICENSED product be in serious trouble? HackMaster is being written as per a license agreement from WotC. It is not a ripoff or theft in any way shape or form. WotC has to approve any HackMaster product that uses material directly from an AD&D source. :D
Ranger REG 02-24-04, 05:08 AM	Originally posted by Xorial I cant remember were I read the statement, but one of the designers that works on updating the SRD, said the UA will eventually be in the SRD. He also stated that he has other projects going on now, so it may be awhile. i belive that I followed a thread posted on the ENWorld site a week or 2 ago. If it's Andy Smith I'd rather he remove "Add UA material to the SRD" from his To-Do List and concentrate on material from other books that DO NOT have OGC to be added to the SRD, like say Oriental Adventures, Monster Manual II, Sword & Fist, etc. From a Hutt or a Ferengi businessman mindset, it would be a waste of human resource to extract material from UA and added to the SRD, when the OGC is clearly designated and identified in said book.
Quithion 02-24-04, 03:00 PM	I do not think that the OGC content refers to the entire book. If you look the list in the back of the book is on a different page type then the rest of the book. I would say the ogc is only those pages that share the same formatting as that.
Ranger REG 02-24-04, 07:46 PM	Gentlebeings... Everyone... Owners of Unearthed Arcana (for 3e/3.5e)... Read the legal notices inside the book. Any fine prints. Does it clearly states any Open Game Content designation? Can you clearly identify them? Does it clearly states any Product Identity designation?
MerricB 02-24-04, 11:02 PM	With regard to Andy Smith and adding UA to the SRD... it's quite possible he was talking about Urban Arcana. More than likely, actually. Cheers!
stonehill_troll 02-24-04, 11:45 PM	Copied from Andy Collin's board (link below). Will the open content be released in a SRD, like the D&D core and D20 modern open content, or will the actual physical book's content be Open, like d20 products? Reply: The actual book is going to be Open Content, no SRD writing for me on this one. Andy Smith Publishing/d20 Licensing Wizards of the Coast, Inc. From here (http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm9.showMessageRange?top icID=34.topic&start=21&stop=40)
Ranger REG 02-25-04, 03:07 AM	Case closed. Now let Andy Smith work on porting Oriental Adventures material to SRD, okay? :smirk: