Unearthed Arcana: Rogue Variant (No sneak attack - modified) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Unearthed Arcana: Rogue Variant (No sneak attack - modified) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LadyIslay
03-27-04, 04:44 AM UA is full of ideas... including a lot of ideas that, in my mind, just don't seem quite balanced. One of the class-variants that they suggest is a rogue that substitutes their sneak attack ability for bonus feats as a fighter. This feels, to say the least, a tad too powerful; however, I've been looking for a 'rogue' type class that isn't quite so 'rogueish' (a highly skilled dexterous fighter without any spellcasting), so I wanted to try and balance this idea. Here's what I've come up with:

As the PHB Rogue, but remove sneak attack, trapfinding and trap sense. Add Rogue Bonus Feats at level 1, 2, 4 and every even level thereafter (just like a fighter). The bonus feats must be chosen from the following list:

From PHB: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Combat reflexes, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Initiative, Investigator, Lightening Reflexes, Nimble Fingers, Persuarive, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse.
From Complete Warrior: Dash, Defensive Strike, Eyes in the Back of your Head, Fleet of Food, Flick of the Wrist, Improved Combat Expertise, Prone Attack.

Thoughts?
Xeviat-DM
03-27-04, 04:58 AM I had assumed that the rogue would get a feat in place of sneak attack at the appropriate levels, and that's how I've decided to run things. It's nice, because I'm rather tyranical about not allowing new classes into the mix of my happy little 10, and this allows a perfect springboard into classes such as the Duelist (interestingly enough, an Int 14 non-human, or an Int 13 human fighter4/rogue4 can have exactly enough skill points to have 6 six at max rank (assuming 4 are from the fighter list, or your DM is nice like me) and 4 rogue skills at 5 ranks each. This way, your duelist isn't hurting in the skill department, and even has 4 skills that are there for the synergy or the little things you'd like to have.

It hasn't looked bad yet. You give up a lot to be a fighter rather than a rogue: BAB, HP, armor (though doesn't hurt the high dex rogue model), and weapon proficiencies (again doesn't hurt much if you stick with a rapier). You do gain it all back through the skill points, evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, special abilities, and skill points (did I mention skill points?), but the lack of sneak attack makes a melee rogue very much harder to pull off.
Greyman
03-27-04, 08:43 AM Originally posted by Xeviat-DM
I had assumed that the rogue would get a feat in place of sneak attack at the appropriate levels, and that's how I've decided to run things.Well, when it says "as classname", the feature is meant to be gained at the the specified class' rate progression.   However, in particular this case, there is only a one level difference in the progressions, so it probably does not matter.

Mmm... actually, it may even look smoother that way as there would be fewer 'no feature' and 'double feature' levels.

Meh.   It's a variant.   Nobody's going to complain if you don't go by the book as long as you're consistant.
Bard-of-all-trades
03-27-04, 04:02 PM The only problem I have is the choice of the bonus feat "Flick of the Wrist". It says you get to catch your opponent flat-footed. This denies the opponent his Dex and leaves him open for a Sneak Attack. How would this benefit a rogue without a Sneak Attack ability? (NOTE: I hope I'm not nit-picking on this; I'm only trying to see the advantage of making this change.)
stone_dog
03-27-04, 04:54 PM Even without sneak attack that would be a few less numbers on the AC to deal with.

Sneak attack is odd anyway. It is a HUGE differece from 2nd edition and... Hmmm... I think this needs a new thread. I'll be back after I dig out my 2nd Edition books and think on it for a while.
LadyIslay
03-27-04, 06:51 PM Originally posted by Bard-of-all-trades
The only problem I have is the choice of the bonus feat "Flick of the Wrist". It says you get to catch your opponent flat-footed. This denies the opponent his Dex and leaves him open for a Sneak Attack. How would this benefit a rogue without a Sneak Attack ability?

Basically, it can be a benefit because it reduces the opponent's AC, making it easier to hit. There is also the possibility of allowing this variant rogue to take 1 HD worth of sneak in lieu of a feat at a certain level. They could end up with, say, 5d6 sneak attack and 6 bonus feats by level 20 instead of 10d6 sneak attack or 11 bonus feats.
Marshall
03-28-04, 12:30 AM Originally posted by LadyIslay
There is also the possibility of allowing this variant rogue to take 1 HD worth of sneak in lieu of a feat at a certain level. They could end up with, say, 5d6 sneak attack and 6 bonus feats by level 20 instead of 10d6 sneak attack or 11 bonus feats.

Ah! Theres the rub! Would it be overpowering to allow the Sneak Fighter or the Feat Rogue to substitute a d6 sneak attack at the appropriate levels?
Xeviat-DM
03-28-04, 03:52 AM Originally posted by Marshall
Ah! Theres the rub! Would it be overpowering to allow the Sneak Fighter or the Feat Rogue to substitute a d6 sneak attack at the appropriate levels?

Nope, not at all. Sounds like a fair feat, much better than dirty fighting.
The Livewire
03-28-04, 11:35 AM Wel so far my combat rogue is the egg shell with hammer variety (Then again I'm playing a +3LA race)

Weapon Finess/focus/TWF means I hit more often than a 'regular' rogue, the lack of a sneak attack means that I don't hit as hard, OTOH Undead don't hamper my character as much.

Burning a feat at 1st level on toughness would help make up for the lack of HP, and Greater Toughnes (Complete Warrior) would almost put you on par HP wise with the cleric. But you're still higher up in skills and otehr abilites than a fighter, just not hitting as often.

Amusingly I considr it a better swashbuckler than a swashbuckler from CW. Very flexable.

It truely shines though when mixed w/other prestige classes that don't need or add to sneak attack. A Combat rogue Assassin, for example, can be nasty at 20th level you have less sneak attack, but 8 extra feats. Skill Focus, Stealthy, other non fighter feats for your regular feats, then a nice set of combat plusses for your bonus. Whirlwind sneak attack anyone?.

:angel:
Thelon Fairblade
03-29-04, 10:44 AM I had always assumed the "Feat Rogue" got 1,2,4,6,etc. progression, and the "Sneak Fighter" got 1,3,5,7,9, etc. progression.

Although switching them around (i.e. making a "Sneak Attack Feat") is an interesting idea. A Sneak-Fighter would actually end up with more sneak attack than a Sneak-Rogue (1,2,4,6 progression), while the Feat-Fighter would have more feats than a Feat-Rogue... which is fair, considering all the other stuff the Rogue gets (skills, evasion, 10th level special abilities).

Wouldn't making it an actual feat (takable only by rogues and fighters) be unbalanced, though? there are published feats that allow a mere 1d6 "sneak attack", non-stacking, only in certain situations (like catching someone flatfooted before combat only)...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LadyIslay 03-27-04, 04:44 AM	UA is full of ideas... including a lot of ideas that, in my mind, just don't seem quite balanced. One of the class-variants that they suggest is a rogue that substitutes their sneak attack ability for bonus feats as a fighter. This feels, to say the least, a tad too powerful; however, I've been looking for a 'rogue' type class that isn't quite so 'rogueish' (a highly skilled dexterous fighter without any spellcasting), so I wanted to try and balance this idea. Here's what I've come up with: As the PHB Rogue, but remove sneak attack, trapfinding and trap sense. Add Rogue Bonus Feats at level 1, 2, 4 and every even level thereafter (just like a fighter). The bonus feats must be chosen from the following list: From PHB: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Combat reflexes, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Initiative, Investigator, Lightening Reflexes, Nimble Fingers, Persuarive, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse. From Complete Warrior: Dash, Defensive Strike, Eyes in the Back of your Head, Fleet of Food, Flick of the Wrist, Improved Combat Expertise, Prone Attack. Thoughts?
Xeviat-DM 03-27-04, 04:58 AM	I had assumed that the rogue would get a feat in place of sneak attack at the appropriate levels, and that's how I've decided to run things. It's nice, because I'm rather tyranical about not allowing new classes into the mix of my happy little 10, and this allows a perfect springboard into classes such as the Duelist (interestingly enough, an Int 14 non-human, or an Int 13 human fighter4/rogue4 can have exactly enough skill points to have 6 six at max rank (assuming 4 are from the fighter list, or your DM is nice like me) and 4 rogue skills at 5 ranks each. This way, your duelist isn't hurting in the skill department, and even has 4 skills that are there for the synergy or the little things you'd like to have. It hasn't looked bad yet. You give up a lot to be a fighter rather than a rogue: BAB, HP, armor (though doesn't hurt the high dex rogue model), and weapon proficiencies (again doesn't hurt much if you stick with a rapier). You do gain it all back through the skill points, evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, special abilities, and skill points (did I mention skill points?), but the lack of sneak attack makes a melee rogue very much harder to pull off.
Greyman 03-27-04, 08:43 AM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM I had assumed that the rogue would get a feat in place of sneak attack at the appropriate levels, and that's how I've decided to run things.Well, when it says "as classname", the feature is meant to be gained at the the specified class' rate progression.   However, in particular this case, there is only a one level difference in the progressions, so it probably does not matter. Mmm... actually, it may even look smoother that way as there would be fewer 'no feature' and 'double feature' levels. Meh.   It's a variant.   Nobody's going to complain if you don't go by the book as long as you're consistant.
Bard-of-all-trades 03-27-04, 04:02 PM	The only problem I have is the choice of the bonus feat "Flick of the Wrist". It says you get to catch your opponent flat-footed. This denies the opponent his Dex and leaves him open for a Sneak Attack. How would this benefit a rogue without a Sneak Attack ability? (NOTE: I hope I'm not nit-picking on this; I'm only trying to see the advantage of making this change.)
stone_dog 03-27-04, 04:54 PM	Even without sneak attack that would be a few less numbers on the AC to deal with. Sneak attack is odd anyway. It is a HUGE differece from 2nd edition and... Hmmm... I think this needs a new thread. I'll be back after I dig out my 2nd Edition books and think on it for a while.
LadyIslay 03-27-04, 06:51 PM	Originally posted by Bard-of-all-trades The only problem I have is the choice of the bonus feat "Flick of the Wrist". It says you get to catch your opponent flat-footed. This denies the opponent his Dex and leaves him open for a Sneak Attack. How would this benefit a rogue without a Sneak Attack ability? Basically, it can be a benefit because it reduces the opponent's AC, making it easier to hit. There is also the possibility of allowing this variant rogue to take 1 HD worth of sneak in lieu of a feat at a certain level. They could end up with, say, 5d6 sneak attack and 6 bonus feats by level 20 instead of 10d6 sneak attack or 11 bonus feats.
Marshall 03-28-04, 12:30 AM	Originally posted by LadyIslay There is also the possibility of allowing this variant rogue to take 1 HD worth of sneak in lieu of a feat at a certain level. They could end up with, say, 5d6 sneak attack and 6 bonus feats by level 20 instead of 10d6 sneak attack or 11 bonus feats. Ah! Theres the rub! Would it be overpowering to allow the Sneak Fighter or the Feat Rogue to substitute a d6 sneak attack at the appropriate levels?
Xeviat-DM 03-28-04, 03:52 AM	Originally posted by Marshall Ah! Theres the rub! Would it be overpowering to allow the Sneak Fighter or the Feat Rogue to substitute a d6 sneak attack at the appropriate levels? Nope, not at all. Sounds like a fair feat, much better than dirty fighting.
The Livewire 03-28-04, 11:35 AM	Wel so far my combat rogue is the egg shell with hammer variety (Then again I'm playing a +3LA race) Weapon Finess/focus/TWF means I hit more often than a 'regular' rogue, the lack of a sneak attack means that I don't hit as hard, OTOH Undead don't hamper my character as much. Burning a feat at 1st level on toughness would help make up for the lack of HP, and Greater Toughnes (Complete Warrior) would almost put you on par HP wise with the cleric. But you're still higher up in skills and otehr abilites than a fighter, just not hitting as often. Amusingly I considr it a better swashbuckler than a swashbuckler from CW. Very flexable. It truely shines though when mixed w/other prestige classes that don't need or add to sneak attack. A Combat rogue Assassin, for example, can be nasty at 20th level you have less sneak attack, but 8 extra feats. Skill Focus, Stealthy, other non fighter feats for your regular feats, then a nice set of combat plusses for your bonus. Whirlwind sneak attack anyone?. :angel:
Thelon Fairblade 03-29-04, 10:44 AM	I had always assumed the "Feat Rogue" got 1,2,4,6,etc. progression, and the "Sneak Fighter" got 1,3,5,7,9, etc. progression. Although switching them around (i.e. making a "Sneak Attack Feat") is an interesting idea. A Sneak-Fighter would actually end up with more sneak attack than a Sneak-Rogue (1,2,4,6 progression), while the Feat-Fighter would have more feats than a Feat-Rogue... which is fair, considering all the other stuff the Rogue gets (skills, evasion, 10th level special abilities). Wouldn't making it an actual feat (takable only by rogues and fighters) be unbalanced, though? there are published feats that allow a mere 1d6 "sneak attack", non-stacking, only in certain situations (like catching someone flatfooted before combat only)...