Post/Author/DateTime	Post
True Cavalier 06-16-06, 01:51 PM	Alright, I suppose this is a big can of worms, but in my campaign setting, and in flavor's name, I want spellcasters to be the mighty powers from books and legends. That means: No "spells per day" deal, whether it's arcane or divine, spontaneous or prepared. I have looked at a couple systems posted on this board that face it with skill checks. My problem with that is that it's too unpredictable. So your mage can cast 100 spells on day without a problem, but the next day he might just fumble his second roll and need to rest. So, I need help. If you know of any published D&D sourcebook with such rules, or general d20 book, or how other RPGs handle this, or even if you have had such thoughts and came up with a working system... please post below. Thanks
Voldar_Mecorthio 06-16-06, 02:34 PM	If you really want to do that, I would recomend a spell roll to cast a spell. Spellcraft, DC 15+level of the spell+2 per previous spell cast within 10 minutes. That would provide a semblence of balance, but I dont like the idea of unlimited spellcasting.
Jerks 06-16-06, 03:17 PM	Recharge magic and the spell point system with the channeling option both provide ways to cast an unlimited number of spells per day.
True Cavalier 06-16-06, 06:50 PM	Mmm, me likes! If by channelling you mean the Vitalizing variants, it's pretty neat. Very close to what I'm thinking. It favors Wizards over Sorcerers, but I already am changing sorcerers to be more interesting. Recharge magic has the "Even the most powerful wizard in the land cannot cast 2 fireballs in a row" deal which I don't like unless I add feats/spells that reduce the "reload time" but it'd just break it, then...
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-16-06, 07:26 PM	Could have a spell point that just recharges really quick. Perhaps even after a few minutes. I like the system from Ars Magica. Not d20 in the slightest, but they allow almost unlimited spellcasting. In that game you always have to roll a skill check. The skill check actually determines your spell level (like I said, completely different system). However, if you roll a critical failure, it is very BAD for your character. Too many crits, and you die.
FlameLover 06-16-06, 10:20 PM	One way to try it, is to make it spells per encounter and not spells per day. Basically you get 1 spell per encounter per four spells per day of that level you would usually have, rounded up. So a first-level Wizard would have (asuming a 16 Int) would have 1 first-level spell per day. For 0 level spells, allow unlimited casting. It's a signifact boost to casters, but if that's what you and your players want this method might just workfor you.
TLomon 06-16-06, 10:47 PM	The system in Slayers d20 is one of the best I have seen for this type of casting.
rogue_lettuce 06-19-06, 08:19 AM	Hmmm. And how exactly would sorcerors and wizards stay anything close to balanced to each other? One can effectively learn all the spells in their section of the PHB and cast them an infinite number of times. The other has only a limited number of spells. Or in fact, divine would be hideously overpowered too. Or would you only allow the normal number of prepared slots, but allow each to be cast multiple times? That's still unbalancing, but not as much...
Millennium 06-19-06, 09:51 AM	Have you considered the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana? (OGL, so it's been republished at d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm))? Most spells can be dropped all day, with less than a minute at most between castings. A few spells take longer to recharge, but not all that many.
True Cavalier 06-19-06, 12:00 PM	I dislike the Recharge Magic because it doesn't matter if you are Elminster of Shadowdale, you still can't cast teleport twice in a row. I'd have to add feats and spells that reduce recharge times. And it'd be broken then :P As for the sorcerers, I don't care. I dlislike the sorcerer as a class. It's "the wizard, only different!". Sorcerers in my games are modified anyway and can select spells from a broader list that includes most cleric and druid spells. So they have another advantage to live on.
sren 06-19-06, 08:43 PM	If you need low level mages to be excessively powerful, there are a few options that don't seem to be as powerful as you'd like, but I'll offer my opinions anyway: 1) Use the gestalt rules from UA, and have the warlock class be the most common option for spellcasters (change the alignment restrictions and visual displays to suit the characters' gods). This gives them their normal spell options, plus an unlimited number of lesser spell attacks and lesser spell tricks (at high levels, invocation can easily become extremely powerful). 2) Make scrolls, potions and wands more common, have the most powerful mages carry around spellbooks that are actually entire books of scrolls, or maybe have magic items that allow spellcasters to ast spells from scrolls without having to have the scrolls in their hands (presenting the appearance of greater power). Maybe a way to enchant a book of scrolls that allows a caster holding a linked item to cast spells form the book so long as the book is within a couple miles. 3) The easiest solution is to have minor magic items be commonly available. Pearls of power can go a long ways towards the level of power you're describing. They're not as useful during combat, but allow great recovery between combats. And if mages are the greatest known power, then their magical creations should also be a greater power (translated to greater items per GP paid). 4) Adjust the rules for magic staves so that it is difficult, dangerous or just plain impossible to cast spells from staves that you cannot normally cast, and make staves common (i.e. cheaper) and/or easily rechagable. Each maes gets a staff appropriate to his character, and so can cast his favorite spells up to fifty times (in addition to his regular spell slots), before needing to purchase a new staff (or get it recharged). This also fits into the theme of wizards requiring a staff (which wizards don't let on that they can cast spells without their staves). 5) Maybe just double or triple the number of spell slots spellcasters get in the first place... These are just the ideas off the top of my head for things that don't change the rules too much. For epic games, its much easier. For the cost of six extra feats: 5x increased spellcasting capacity, plus a feat that allows you cast a chosen spell once per round an unlimited number of times per day for the cost of permanently losing a spell slot equal to the level of the spell +8 (I can't remember whichs bookS the feat is in, sorry). Choose mordenkainen's lubrication, and in between battles, recover all of your spells BELOW 6th level for the cost of one 14th level spellslot. You'd be hard pressed to do this before 29th level, however, so I'm not sure if that's what fits your world's version of ultimate magical power. Hope this wasn't too painful... S'Ren
Thelon Fairblade 06-20-06, 09:17 AM	You could still use a recharge-like system. Just have the *slot* recharge, not the spell. Elminster -- using your example -- has 4 3rd level and 4 5th level spell slots. Fireball has a 4 round recharge. *IF* he prepared 2 fireballs today, he could cast one from the 1st slot, cast the second from the other slots (slot one now 1rd into recharge), cast teleport (slot 1 now at 2rd, slot 2 at 1 rd) to return to his tower for his pipe, get his pipe (1/2/3 now at 3/2/1rds), cast teleport from another previously-prepared 5th level slot (1/2/3 now at 4/3/2rds) to return to the combat, and unload two more fireballs in quick succession. A sorcerer, in this system, would not be limited by "preparation". Round 1, cast fireball with a 3rd level slot. Round 2, cast fireball with another 3rd level slot. Round 3, cast fireball with a 4th level slot. Round 4 cast fireball with another 4th level slot. round 5, cast fireball with the original 3rd level slot. Round 6 cast Dispel Magic, etc....
Thelon Fairblade 06-20-06, 09:18 AM	Please note that any and all of these options (from myself and other posters) will indeed make spellcasters *more* powerful. Which is fine if all your players will be playing mages (like in an Ars Magica campaign). Otherwise, you are shafting the noncasters even more....
Millennium 06-20-06, 10:20 AM	There's also the question of whether or not you really need a magic system at all, if what you're going for is basically minor godhood. You may be better served by going totally freeform with your magic. If a mage can think of something, he can make it happen; does that really need rules? Just make "magery" into a feat or something, and if you have the feat you can use freeform magic.
True Cavalier 06-20-06, 05:47 PM	No, I am pretty sure I want a set of rules. Thanks for the input all. From what I could already check (the OGL stuff) I think I've pretty much decided to go for a slightly modified Spell Point system. Overall, it will make mages more powerful, perhaps (I mean, it doesn't LOOK like le brokenation, mana-based systems have been around forever).
Lord_Tirian 06-20-06, 06:36 PM	You can still try to salvage the Warlock, at least the concepts. There are some things to consider, if you try to have unlimited magic: 1) Impact - the total number of spells is less important, than the number of high-level spells (with high damage per round) in your average 4 encounters per day. 2) Healing. Any unlimited healing ends up in always-fit characters and screws everything totally, because the CR system becomes useless. Concerning point 1: The mystic theurge has significantly more spell slots (due to his double advancement), yet is not broken, because his total impact per round (i.e. highest level spell) is too far behind. So if you want a unlimited magic system, you must do two important things: Kill healing spells (they are utterly broken) and nerf the spell caster's impact. I'm suggesting this kind of spellcasting progression (for a wizard, adapt for other classes): This are the spells the wizard has memorized and can cast. Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 1 - - - - 2 2 2 - - - - 3 3 2 - - - - 4 3 3 - - - - 5 3 3 - - - - 6 4 3 0 - - - 7 4 4 1 - - - 8 4 4 2 - - - 9 4 4 2 - - - 10 4 4 3 0 - - 11 4 4 3 1 - - 12 4 4 3 2 - - 13 4 4 4 2 - - 14 4 4 4 3 0 - 15 4 4 4 3 1 - 16 4 4 4 3 2 - 17 4 4 4 4 2 - 18 4 4 4 4 3 0 19 4 4 4 4 3 1 20 4 4 4 4 3 2 This is the number of spells the wizard can cast per day. X denotes an unlimited number of spells of this level. Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 1 1 1 - - - - 2 X 2 - - - - 3 X X - - - - 4 X X - - - - 5 X X - - - - 6 X X 1 - - - 7 X X 2 - - - 8 X X X - - - 9 X X X - - - 10 X X X 1 - - 11 X X X 2 - - 12 X X X X - - 13 X X X X - - 14 X X X X 1 - 15 X X X X 2 - 16 X X X X X - 17 X X X X X - 18 X X X X X 1 19 X X X X X 2 20 X X X X X X Healing spells can be easily nerfed: They can only heal up to (caster level x 10) hit points per day (regardless of what spell you use) per creature. If several casters heal one creature, only use the highest limit. I'm pretty sure, that this system above is quite balanced, I'm only concerned about the first levels, thus I've powered them down a bit. With this system, you're trading long-lasting spell casting power for maximal power. I don't think that unlimited fireballs at 12th level are really overpowered (if you're 12th level you could already use a ludicrous amount of fireballs anyway, if you prepare them on 4th-, 5th- and 6th-level - enough to sling them through the average four encounters per day. The system could still use some tweaking, because it's just a draft, but others will critisize it, so I hope I could help you. :)
Harkle 06-20-06, 06:43 PM	You could still use a recharge-like system. Just have the *slot* recharge, not the spell. Elminster -- using your example -- has 4 3rd level and 4 5th level spell slots. Fireball has a 4 round recharge. *IF* he prepared 2 fireballs today, he could cast one from the 1st slot, cast the second from the other slots (slot one now 1rd into recharge), cast teleport (slot 1 now at 2rd, slot 2 at 1 rd) to return to his tower for his pipe, get his pipe (1/2/3 now at 3/2/1rds), cast teleport from another previously-prepared 5th level slot (1/2/3 now at 4/3/2rds) to return to the combat, and unload two more fireballs in quick succession. A sorcerer, in this system, would not be limited by "preparation". Round 1, cast fireball with a 3rd level slot. Round 2, cast fireball with another 3rd level slot. Round 3, cast fireball with a 4th level slot. Round 4 cast fireball with another 4th level slot. round 5, cast fireball with the original 3rd level slot. Round 6 cast Dispel Magic, etc.... I actually like this one, if I an my group every feel like having a crazy mage campaign I may use it.
Phoenix Knight 06-22-06, 11:53 AM	I don't know that it would be at all what you are looking for, but I have been working on a system with no daily limit in my free-form sorcery thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655243). Of course, simply modifying spell points so they recharge is easier, so if that does it for you, go for it. Good luck, True Cavalier.
True Cavalier 06-22-06, 01:28 PM	I took a glimpse and it looks good, though I would rather not change too much about how spells work. Thanks
Iry 06-23-06, 12:47 AM	Unlimited Spells. Fortitude Save: DC 10 + (Spell Levelx2) Spells deal non-lethal damage equal to (Spell Level + Caster Level) on a successful Fort Save. Spells deal lethal damage equal to (Spell Level + Caster Level) on a failed Fort Save Why caster level? Because it makes casting non-trivial. However, it still simulates lower level spells becomming easier to cast, since at each level the spellcaster is probably gaining more than 1 HP. It makes party buffing far more attractive, but also lessens the impact of in-combat annihilation which some DMs have difficulties with at higher levels.
Phoenix Knight 06-23-06, 10:32 AM	I think in previous attempts, many concluded that damage is mediocre limiter due to healing magic. My fix for that is add the clause: "the damage cannot be magically healed or something," other divine casters become problematic. And doesn't healing heal and equal amount of lethal and non-lethal? That allows double-dipping if you fail some saves and pass others. Of course, the heal spell is the one you really have to worry about, since your damage is high enough that many other spells might only slightly out-pace it.
Darkmatter20 06-23-06, 10:47 AM	Please note that any and all of these options (from myself and other posters) will indeed make spellcasters *more* powerful. Which is fine if all your players will be playing mages (like in an Ars Magica campaign). Otherwise, you are shafting the noncasters even more.... Actually my group has played with th unearthed arcana rules for awhile now and if anything it lowers spellcasters effect per encounter. Example with standard rules: Wizard/Caster saves spells for final boss and uses them all round after round. Boss easily dealt with (or close to) with the other party members having a minor role in the final fight. On the other hand with the recharge rules it takes a certain amount of time between each high level spell cast (for General recharges) so the caster can participate each encounter during the day and will not dominate any one encounter. We've played this up till ~10 level and thats what we've noticed. Since most encounters only last one minute the caster will recharge their highest spell ~two-three times if he casts in the first round. Been some tense times with the cleric being unable to cast healing spells quickly in games :) A non-recharge cleric would have had no problem.
Valoy_Muniz 06-26-06, 11:38 AM	I made a caster not to long ago that you could try using for your game. It can be found Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=652759) I have not tested it yet and since no one replyed I have not made more for it (I have some feats to incress recharge and storage). Basicly what it is he must gather the energy into his body (level/5+1per round) before casting a spell. He can hold his level+ con mod and a spell need its level+1 to cast. This way he can have a some power ready before the fight but if he wants to keep spell slinging it will take time.
Skeetweasel 06-26-06, 01:09 PM	You can supe up recharge magic to apply to the spell slot and not the spell level. Using this variant variant means spellcasters only lose access to a particular slot, not the entire level of spells.
Leress 06-28-06, 01:48 AM	The system in Slayers d20 is one of the best I have seen for this type of casting. I second that!
Vaelan 06-28-06, 05:39 AM	I dislike the Recharge Magic because it doesn't matter if you are Elminster of Shadowdale, you still can't cast teleport twice in a row. I don't see any restriction upon using higher level slots to cast lower level spells in the Recharge rules. Please note that any and all of these options (from myself and other posters) will indeed make spellcasters *more* powerful. Not necessarily. Recharge actually comes close to balancing them in regards to combat. At lower levels it gives them a much needed boost. At higher levels it may need some adjustment.
ArcTan 06-28-06, 07:15 AM	If you really want to do that, I would recomend a spell roll to cast a spell. Spellcraft, DC 15+level of the spell+2 per previous spell cast within 10 minutes. That would provide a semblence of balance, but I dont like the idea of unlimited spellcasting. Skill-based magic? Congrats, you've just taken the first step toward inventing Truename Magic from ToM. Got complaints that Truename Magic from ToM is wonky? Well, yeah. It kind of has to be. Because skill-based magic has *all* kinds of issues.
Bikermattus 07-08-06, 02:40 AM	If I wanted an unlimited number of spells castable (which I may for my next campaign), I would do something similar to Everquest's mana system, modified to fit the standardized spell-power system in D&D. Spell Level Mana Cost Cantrip 1 1st 4 2nd 9 3rd 16 4th 25 5th 36 6th 49 7th 64 8th 81 9th 100 Supply the spellcaster with the points appropriate to cast his allotment of spells, and, for the recovery (this is where it gets fast on the all-day spellcasting), use the Meditation skill to gain you meditation ranks (or a function thereof) per hour, and you can even enhance it with feats and Concentration synergy. Matt ______________________ we need a :d&d: emoticon
TheSkinnySkeleton 07-08-06, 03:28 PM	Here's an idea: Instead of making your spellcasters have to memorize spells, let them cast spells straight from their spellbook. The spells would always be there for them to cast, and pages would never dissapear from their spellbook. Virtually unlimited. Scrolls could be used as well, but scrolls would disappear upon casting. The catch is that they MUST have their spellbook to work their magic. If they somehow lose their spellbook, they must make an INT check to remember the spell. The memory DC goes up with each day that passes, until eventually they simply can't cast the spells anymore without written material. Yes, this would be uber-powered. But hey, if that's what you're looking for....
Thiez 07-08-06, 04:20 PM	Keep a scroll to quickly fabricate a new spellbook when the original goes missing ;)
Bikermattus 07-08-06, 08:27 PM	Here's an idea: Instead of making your spellcasters have to memorize spells, let them cast spells straight from their spellbook. The spells would always be there for them to cast, and pages would never dissapear from their spellbook. Virtually unlimited. Scrolls could be used as well, but scrolls would disappear upon casting. The catch is that they MUST have their spellbook to work their magic. If they somehow lose their spellbook, they must make an INT check to remember the spell. The memory DC goes up with each day that passes, until eventually they simply can't cast the spells anymore without written material. Yes, this would be uber-powered. But hey, if that's what you're looking for.... I like the idea... too bad I forgot about it when it came across my mind while AD&D was still the latest game... I actually came up with a way around that limit, too... multiply the number of standard actions by something (upgrading to a full-round action from using all your actions counting as an extra standard action). That way, you can find a nice balance, with something to fall back on if they can't cant:rofl: Still, it doesn't solve all of the problems:uh-huh:
ThorGuy 07-15-06, 12:46 PM	I have a simple idea. How about unlimited spells per day, no checks to cast them, and no backlash type thing, but every spell you cast costs you XP.
Magius_Rerecros 07-20-06, 11:59 AM	If you really want to do that, I would recomend a spell roll to cast a spell. Spellcraft, DC 15+level of the spell+2 per previous spell cast within 10 minutes. That would provide a semblence of balance, but I dont like the idea of unlimited spellcasting. Personally, I think that this would be a good suggestions, only lower the DC a bit, or at least for lower levels. Once you get up to somewhere around level 10 or 12 or so, then this would be good because otherwise the DC would be too low and then your casters would become too powerful. However, if you start at level 1, then this system would make it impossible for a caster to cast more then 3 1st level spells within 10 minutes. What I suggest is a DC somewhat like this, except that it fluxuates depending on the level of the caster. For levels 1-9, I'd say DC 10+spell level+1 per previous spell cast within 5 minutes. Then for 10-15, DC 15+spell level+2 per previous spell cast within 10 minutes. Then for levels 16+, DC 15+spell level+5 per previous cast within 10 minutes. This helps balance the power of the caster as he grows in levels, allowing him to cast a decent amount of spells, yet restricting it so that he doesn't become too overpowered. After all, if casters can just cast any spell at any time, they'd be nearly invincible by the time they get 9th level spells, or possibly even sooner. However, if you allow them to get to the point of being able to cast epic spells, I'd say keep the system they currently have for epic spells. This way they still have their extraordinarily powerful spells, but it does not make them so powerful that they become undefeatable.
Servant_of_Metal 07-24-06, 12:31 PM	Hmm, I wouldn't require a spellcraft check, because it makes spellcasting skill dependant. Rather use a Caster level check.
Soulmage 07-26-06, 10:39 AM	Sounds like what you're looking for is the magic system from True Sorcery by Green Ronin. I think its only available in PDF right now, but I think they're coming out with a hard copy later. OTOH, buying it in PDF, you get exactly what you're looking for, for only a few dollars. Not sure where to get it. You can try RPGNow or some other PDF dealer. I'm sure they can hook you up.