Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 08-05-07, 07:28 PM	To me, the spells per day system is a little clunky. The spell point system too. While i understand perfectly the 'mechanical need' to limit the power of spellcasters, i doesn't really make sense. I mean, i see spellcasting as a trick: you can either do it or you can't. You either know fireball and can cast it, or you can't. Now obviously, getting all your spells known as at-will abilities is undoable in the current system, or would lead to a class that knows like, 1 spell per two levels. Now i have brainstormed about it quite a while, but i just can't figure out a way. So how would you guys create a system like that, where spellcasters can just cast the spelsl they know when they want to?
Me, Myself, & 101 others 08-05-07, 08:22 PM	Personally, I rather like the 'recharge' system in Unearthed Arcana. I just changed the buff-type spells so that they don't recharge while their duration is up (for ease of book-keeping).
GSonic7 08-05-07, 10:22 PM	If you want to try to balance it with the current system, you could use the system that some other D20 system uses (I can't remember which, though). A caster can cast (theoretically) an unlimited amount of spells per day, but each spell they cast strains them physically (or mentally). Perhaps they take a penalty to constitution, or all physical stats (or mental stats) dependent on how strong a spell they cast. If you want to implement unlimited spellcasting, without resorting to how the Warlock does it, you should definitely toy around with that idea.
zephyrTR 08-05-07, 10:27 PM	thats the whole problem with the recharge system, though. The bookkeeping gets horrendous! Personally I find the spellpoints system to be the best way to do it and here's how I explain how magic works: Sorcerers, bards, druids: casting is a natural process but just like running, your body wears out after a while. Keep workin the muscle, though, and the longer it will run for. Course you can keep going, but...you might inflict personal harm in the process. Wizards: casting is a mental process and eventually your head cant take it anymore and if you keep going youre gonna get a nosebleed. Longer you're a scientist, though, the more used to complex thought your brain gets. Clerics & Pallies: its not YOUR power that's doing it, its your deity's and he's only going to help you for so long. The better a servant, though, the nicer he is.
ShinoAburame 08-06-07, 10:07 AM	An HP costing varaint seems possible too. Immagine a spell expending HP equal to what it would in spellpoints. Putting those excess HP you're never going to miss at later levels to use! For a cleric or something that seems redundant as heal+HP=no limitations. However just apply some sortof risk of failure and there you go. Either a spellcraft skillcheck or a generic 5% failure. Not sure how unbalanced it is, but then anything is unbalanced when it involves casters to non-casters!
unundindur 08-06-07, 10:14 AM	So how would you guys create a system like that, where spellcasters can just cast the spelsl they know when they want to? And I bring you the magician (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=885421). :) It was designed for this very purpose, as well as making the gap between wizard and sorcerer more of a fluff-thing. Questions, critique and suggestions can be posted in the respective thread.
zephyrTR 08-06-07, 11:13 AM	An HP costing varaint seems possible too. Immagine a spell expending HP equal to what it would in spellpoints. Putting those excess HP you're never going to miss at later levels to use! For a cleric or something that seems redundant as heal+HP=no limitations. However just apply some sortof risk of failure and there you go. Either a spellcraft skillcheck or a generic 5% failure. Not sure how unbalanced it is, but then anything is unbalanced when it involves casters to non-casters! actually the SP variant has rules regarding casting after SP is gone. You make a fort save DC20+lvl of spell. Fail and you take lethal and nonlethal damage equal to the SP required to cast your spell. I added a rule saying as per the dm's discretion, the spell's effects have been reduced. Also I made this save DC cumulative per encounter. So say a wizard with no sp left wants to cast a lvl 7 spell. He barely makes his DC27 save. Then he wants to cast a lvl 2 spell to help get outta combat. So his save DC is 29.
Werral 08-07-07, 01:57 PM	Just make spells like skills (or use schools as skills and spells as spell tricks). You set the DC and you're done. Have critical failures on a "1" (or make a threat range of 1-2/1-3 for more powerful/easily abused spells) to keep wizards cautious with their spell use (ie you don't cast "Gate" unless you really need to). The DCs should be high enough that wizards fail 25% of the time with their highest level of spells, though that could go down to about 10%. Up the penalties You can theoretically cast an infinite number of spells but that's balanced because you can't just count on your fireball automatically working.
MrCustomer 08-07-07, 10:03 PM	You would have to balance spells according to how often they are cast. That is the difficulty. Regardless of what system you use having an endless supply of 10d6 fireballs is a balance problem. Even an endless suply of magic missiles hitting unerringly at level 1 is an issue. All spells would have to be rebalanced accordingly and made weaker, even then there is a problem with spells such as Charm Person and invisibility because they can't be made weaker. Spell power is balacned by how often they can be cast. The Spell Point system is the only real alternative.
Illithid_Tentacles 08-07-07, 10:53 PM	Well, you could use a recharge system similar to the Swordsage's, who have to spend a full-rond action to recover a single maneuver. For spells, I was thinking you could recover a spell up to twice the level of the number of full-round actions you spend recovering (1 round to recover a level 1 or 2 spell, 2 rounds to recover a level 3 or 4, 3 rounds to recover a level 5 or 6, etc.). Using this system, though, pretty much makes wizards and divine casters broken, since wizards CAN have access to ever arcane spell in exisistance, and divine casters get EVERY spell on thier spell list available to them by default. To balance this out, I'd have to say that wizards wouldn't be allowed to change the spells they can cast more than once per day, and divine casters would have to have "spellbooks" similar to a wizard's, or else simply have a limited number of spells known the way bards and sorcerers do.
Dreamstryder 08-08-07, 02:29 AM	Another path, going out of the ToB (whence the Swordsage comes) is: Wizards may cast each one of their spells but once an encounter. Of all the spells they may have recorded, they are only prepared to cast their "prepared spells" (as in the PHB) at a moment's notice. Think of it as reciting your lines before you go on stage to make sure you have them down; prepared spells are the ones you have down at the time. You may change your prepared spells at any time you have 5 minutes to spare. Sorcerers are different in that they only know so many spells (as in the PHB), but have all of their known spells prepared at any time. This means that, as the spell tables compare, sorcerers are more flexible with spells lv 0-2, both are even with spells lv 3-5, and wizards have more castable spells at lv 6-9. If you don't like that, give sorcerers a different spells known progression. You can add recharging mechanics if you'd like, but I wouldn't make one more complex than using 1 full-round action to recover one spell, regardless of level (as in ToB). You could also (or instead) have items that restore lost spells in battle, lower lvl ones first, and call them what you will. 100 gp - Final Fantasy Ether: restore 1d4+1 spells, lowest to highest. 200 gp - Mid-Ether: 1d8+1 spells 400 gp - X- Ether: 1d12+1 spells
Ertai Planeswalker 08-08-07, 06:51 AM	And I bring you the magician (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=885421). :) It was designed for this very purpose, as well as making the gap between wizard and sorcerer more of a fluff-thing. Questions, critique and suggestions can be posted in the respective thread. I looked at the thread. It looked good, but for some reason i can't get the spoiler boxes to open. As such, i don't really know how it works yet. You say he should have unlimited spells, yet you talk about preparation...
unundindur 08-08-07, 07:34 AM	I looked at the thread. It looked good, but for some reason i can't get the spoiler boxes to open. As such, i don't really know how it works yet. You say he should have unlimited spells, yet you talk about preparation... The spoiler boxes jam at times, reloading the page fixes it for me every time. Regarding perparation it works like this: You prepare spells, which takes a LONG time. The prepared spells can be cast at will. Its effectively a super sorcerer, who also have the versatility to change his spell selection, but that will take weeks if not months :) The idea was simply to make a super sorcerer (not in the sense of power, but of concept of course), but also allow for long-term changes.
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 07:49 AM	I would go with granting casters 1/4 of their spells per encounter, instead of their normal allotment of spells per day, and maybe require that they meditate for a full round action (provoking an AoO) to refresh. So a wizard's spells per encounter might look like: 3/2/2/1/1/1/1, or something.
unundindur 08-08-07, 08:13 AM	I would go with granting casters 1/4 of their spells per encounter, instead of their normal allotment of spells per day, and maybe require that they meditate for a full round action (provoking an AoO) to refresh. So a wizard's spells per encounter might look like: 3/2/2/1/1/1/1, or something. In my oppinion that would weaken the magicians far to much. If we assume 4 encounters per day, which is what the books state then this is a terrible downgrade. I have found that its the high elvel slots that really make for hte nasty-ness of casters, since they can use them for all sorts of vile metamagic tricks. When you get rid of the top tiers of spells its no problem if they hurl fireballs all day long.
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 08:18 AM	In my oppinion that would weaken the magicians far to much. If we assume 4 encounters per day, which is what the books state then this is a terrible downgrade. Why, instead of having four 3rd level spells a day, they would have one 3rd level spell per encounter? Seems like the right way to go to me. It would also stop sorcerers blasting off seven 9th level spells in a row. You would also stop the wizard being reduced to a schmuck with a crossbow because he used up all of his spells for the day.
unundindur 08-08-07, 08:32 AM	I see the ability to turn into a battery as the strength of those classes. They thus take the flash-role, as opposed to the fighters stable enduring role. As i said i think it is indeed problematic with sorcers casting 6 9th level spells in a row, but not in that there are 6 spells, more in the fact that 9th elvel spells in themselves are a bit out of league with the game as a whole the way I see it. But this is hard to quantify, and as such becomes more a matter of taste I guess... :) EDIT: The reason I created the class above was also to give the mage-players the "feeling" they tend to look for. That is the feeling of mastering magic to the point of beeing able to do cast what they can as much as they please.
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 08:41 AM	As i said i think it is indeed problematic with sorcers casting 6 9th level spells in a row, but not in that there are 6 spells, more in the fact that 9th elvel spells in themselves are a bit out of league with the game as a whole the way I see it. Oh, I totally agree, the D&D magic/spell system is a bit of a mess, and by mess, I mean overpowered, antiquated, pseudo-Vancian, Gygaxian silliness, IMO. …Let alone 7th level and higher spells. I don't know why almost every aspect of this game has evolved and moved on, yet the magic/spell system seems to be a glorified cut & paste from 1st/2nd edition.
unundindur 08-08-07, 09:00 AM	Oh, I totally agree, the D&D magic/spell system is a bit of a mess, and by mess, I mean overpowered, antiquated, pseudo-Vancian, Gygaxian silliness, IMO. …Let alone 7th level and higher spells. I don't know why almost every aspect of this game has evolved and moved on, yet the magic/spell system seems to be a glorified cut & paste from 1st/2nd edition. take a look at the class skill thead in the skill and feat board ;) I wage a war on everyone there on a somewhat related topic. Come join in the slaughter :rolleyes:
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 09:06 AM	take a look at the class skill thead in the skill and feat board ;) I wage a war on everyone there on a somewhat related topic. Come join in the slaughter :rolleyes: I have, you even quoted me, and your response was "Word!" …To your mother!
unundindur 08-08-07, 09:22 AM	I have, you even quoted me, and your response was "Word!" …To your mother! haha, good ;)
Xanthanon 08-16-07, 10:06 PM	Consider: #15 | Spell Point System 2, from http://www.community3e.com/rules.html Happy Gaming, X
Robespierre 08-17-07, 01:04 AM	I was upset by the supposed damaging of the body occasioned by spell casting as presented in D&D and wanted to make it simpler: A(n arcane) caster memorises their spells per day and can cast them whenever they want, however, each time they do, they take 1d3/spell level non-lethal damage. It hurts to cast a lot, however, priests still have to memorise their spells and bards get to cast their spells as a use of bardic music...
Ra-Tiel 08-17-07, 07:04 AM	To me, the spells per day system is a little clunky. The spell point system too. While i understand perfectly the 'mechanical need' to limit the power of spellcasters, i doesn't really make sense. I mean, i see spellcasting as a trick: you can either do it or you can't. You either know fireball and can cast it, or you can't. Now obviously, getting all your spells known as at-will abilities is undoable in the current system, or would lead to a class that knows like, 1 spell per two levels. Now i have brainstormed about it quite a while, but i just can't figure out a way. So how would you guys create a system like that, where spellcasters can just cast the spelsl they know when they want to? I second the recharge magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) variant. While it may look horribly overpowered at first, there are several points to consider: It is true that spellcasters can now cast their spells all day long. However, no caster can ever cast his most powerful spell on two consecutive rounds (barrying stuff like magic items or feats that give free "quicken" effects). Some spells, like most enchantment spells or most buff spells, have specific recharge times, thus making it impossible to eg charm monster two or more creatures within a certain small amount of time, or putting bull's strength on more than one target in battle. Considering that most combats do not last longer than 5 or 6 rounds on average, from 1. and 2. you can tell that a caster may - at most - cast one spell from his highest levels each, and recharge time will prevent a caster from spamming an encounter with horrid wiltings or delayed blast fireballs. In fact, at this aspect recharge magic becomes sort of a nerf to spellcasters. "Going nova" is almost completely prevented. In the standard system it is possible for a wizard to discharge his total daily allowance of spells at an enemy in like 3 or 4 rounds max, given the proper feats (*cough*Quicken Spell*cough*), magic items (*cough*metamagic rod of quicken*cough*), and spell selections (*cough*time stop*cough*). This will not work under the recharge system, as no matter how many actions and stuff you get, the recharge time for each spell level is not influenced by that. The book keeping can be reduced a bit if you go away from the random recharge times to fixed recharge times, similar to the following table: Spontaneous Preparing Spell level casters casters ----------------------------------------- highest 4 5 2nd highest 4 5 3rd highest 3 4 4th highest 3 4 5th highest 2 3 6th highest 2 3 7th highest 1 2 8th highest 1 2 9th highest 0 1 10th highest 0 1 Anyways, I think bookkeeping is not much worse than keeping track of your spells in the "normal" system. I also don't think the problem of the party entering any combat fully healed and buffed is too much a problem. First, there already are means for a party to completely heal after a combat for neglectable costs (like with fast healing effects such as from a wand of vigor, lesser, or partially with a dragon shaman's healing aura). And second, almost all buff spells have a specific recharge time (eg, polymorph = 30min, or heroism = 1h), thus making it either impractical or outright impossible to buff up the whole party. Also, while casters may be able to theoretically cast certain spells a huge number of times per day, XP and material components are still applied. Therefore it can very quickly become very expensive to repeatedly cast spells like forcecage (at 1500gp for each casting) or wish (at 5000 XPs per casting).
runestar 08-20-07, 10:20 AM	Some spells, like most enchantment spells or most buff spells, have specific recharge times, thus making it impossible to eg charm monster two or more creatures within a certain small amount of time, or putting bull's strength on more than one target in battle. Given that the recharge time of stat boosting spells like bull's str is only 5 minutes, this means that a spellcaster of lv6+ can effectively keep it up 24/7 (barring sleep). In other words, he can keep 1 of each of the 6 various stat boosters up 24/7, distributed amongst his party members (whoever needs them the most). Perm bull's str/endurance on the party fighter, cat's grace on the rogue, fox's cunning on the wizard (you), owl's wisdom/eagle's splendour on the party cleric 24/7? Are you fine with that? Also, while casters may be able to theoretically cast certain spells a huge number of times per day, XP and material components are still applied. Therefore it can very quickly become very expensive to repeatedly cast spells like forcecage (at 1500gp for each casting) or wish (at 5000 XPs per casting). Miracle has no component, and it is possible to cast it every 2-7 rounds using silent image and shadowmage... This is why the CO boards should be made to playtest everything wotc spews forth...:P
Ra-Tiel 08-20-07, 11:01 AM	Given that the recharge time of stat boosting spells like bull's str is only 5 minutes, this means that a spellcaster of lv6+ can effectively keep it up 24/7 (barring sleep). In other words, he can keep 1 of each of the 6 various stat boosters up 24/7, distributed amongst his party members (whoever needs them the most). Perm bull's str/endurance on the party fighter, cat's grace on the rogue, fox's cunning on the wizard (you), owl's wisdom/eagle's splendour on the party cleric 24/7? Are you fine with that? Well, you could always easily rule that specific recharge times just start when a spell's duration has expired. This way, you'd have a reasonable and elegant way of preventing your "24/7" tactic. Miracle has no component, and it is possible to cast it every 2-7 rounds using silent image and shadowmage... This is why the CO boards should be made to playtest everything wotc spews forth...:P Maybe. However, miracle is almost completely in the GM's hands, due to the clauses "You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede." and "In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused." A wish never has this strings attached, only the XP component. Also, would you care to explain how an arcane level 1 spell would be able to copycat the direct divine intervention of a deity? ;)
runestar 08-20-07, 10:42 PM	Also, would you care to explain how an arcane level 1 spell would be able to copycat the direct divine intervention of a deity? My only answer would be because the current rules allow such it. Hey, dragons can cast miracle as an arcane spell, and ur-priests can cast miracle as well despite not worshiping any deities. There appears to be precedent for "faking" deific intervention of some sort.:P
Ra-Tiel 08-21-07, 03:15 AM	My only answer would be because the current rules allow such it. :confused: Did I miss some horribly broken PrC and feat combo, or are you just messing with me? :P Also, my question was more focused on the "level 1" thing. ;) Hey, dragons can cast miracle as an arcane spell, "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quod_licet_Iovi,_non_licet_bovi). ;) :D and ur-priests can cast miracle as well despite not worshiping any deities. And ur-priests are one of the most horribly designed and utterly broken classes, standing in the same coloum as incantatrix and planar shepherd. :P There appears to be precedent for "faking" deific intervention of some sort.:P But that doesn't actually change the way the spells work. So the limiting factors in miracle's description still apply. ;)
migo 08-21-07, 04:04 AM	Microlite d20 has a system where it costs HP to cast a spell. Obviously you need to give spellcasters more HP then, but it's pretty interesting. Something balancing where it costs HP to do certain feats for fighters would also be apropriate though.
runestar 08-21-07, 06:20 AM	Did I miss some horribly broken PrC and feat combo, or are you just messing with me? Also, my question was more focused on the "level 1" thing. I am still trying to get the gist of it as well, since I do not own races of stone, but apparently, the shadowcrafter mage lets you swap out silent image to replicate some spell. Earth power raises the cap on this ability, thus letting silent image replicate 9th lv spells. I think it should cost you a 9th lv slot, but again, I stress that I still do not fully understand this combination, just that it is possible, as verified by the CO boards. Thus, even though miracle has a recharge rate of 12 hours, silent image's recharge time is only 1d6+1 rounds, and it is this standard you use to determine when it can be used again, regardless of what spell it duplicates. The CO boards should have a clearer explanation.:P
Thane26425 08-21-07, 09:11 AM	Shadowrun uses a system like someone mentioned, that spells are taxing to cast and the caster can resist it somewhat. That would require a system where spells had a base level of "drain" and that drain would be increased by the addition power added (casting a higher level fireball) and metamagic. It would also require the mage to use a skill, probably Concentrate, to resist said drain. The drain itself could manifest as subdual damage. That would make more sense than physical damage because few casters would be willing to throw spells if they would also being throwing their own blood by the effort. Getting a little tired on the other hand wouldn't be so bad. GURPS had a system whereby a mage had a given number of spell points. Individual spells were treated as skills and the higher the skill, the fewer points it would cost to cast. In addition, the higher the skill, "feats" came into play, mainly Still and Silent spell. If the spell was successfully cast, subtract the points. If those reached zero, the mage passed out, it being subdual damage. They could, however, use regular "hit points" too if they wanted. I'm not overly concerned with this, however, as spell points are working just fine. I might change it to allow spell points to regenerate with rest like subdual damage as that would be in keeping with these two systems. New spell sets would have to be rested for though as per usual.