Post/Author/DateTime	Post
senecalp 11-26-07, 04:18 PM	I am considering using the 2nd edition initiative system. My reasoning being that I preferred segmented rounds in which players and NPCs acted simultaneously, moving and acting in increments and responding in "real time" to what is happening around them. I know that weapons and spells would need speeds and the improved initiative feat would need to be changed. What else would need to be altered and more importantly, why wouldn't this work?
IAmTheScum 11-26-07, 09:09 PM	As far as I can tell, this idea (along with called shots, *shudder*) has been kicked around since the dawn of 3rd edition, and not once with a positive result. Short answer: Don't do it. Long answer: Go for it! And remember, I told you so...
Werral 11-29-07, 05:19 PM	It always worked fine in a way that called shots didn't (in D&D). I think that it can get fiddly with miniatures though. Also remember that 3e already has AoE's interupting standard initiative. One way you could do it in 3e is to give each action an initiative cost, say 5 for a standard action, 3 for a move action and 10 for a full round action. Swift actions could cost 1. You could bring back the old weapon speeds/casting times to vary that. So basically Redgar, krusk and generic badguy are in combat. The badguy rolls a 10. Krusk and Redgar roll an 8 So the badguy goes firat, takes a move action. So now the badguy's initiative is 7. Krusk throws an axe and redgar charges (a move action). Now Krusk's initiative is 2 (7-5 for a std action) and Redgar's is 4 (7-3 for a move action). So Badguy gets to act, taking a std action to two-weapon rend Redgar to bits. Redgar is now out of combat (but would be able to make an attack otherwise). While krusk still has his move action, which he uses to charge. And so on. That's nothing like 2e rules but what the hey. Also in 2e, a second attack took place after all combatants had made their first attacks. But in compensation all attacks were made without penalty. SO if you use that rule, then all attacks should be made at full BAB.
rainy 12-03-07, 04:09 PM	I really like(d) 2nd's initiative system too. I thought it brought a lot of fun to combat. I don't really think you'd have to change a lot. Like you said, add the weapon speeds and casting times for spells. You need to look at how the concentration skill and combat casting are going to fit into that, because back in 2nd you were far more likely (or was it assured of) spoiling a spell by hitting the caster. Also, I think you have to bring back rolling initiative each round -- another feature I miss. And make sure to decide how held and ready actions will work if you keep those concepts. I think Werral is onto something with keeping full BAB too. -rainy
CCS 12-05-07, 12:37 PM	The 1st/2nd ed version of inititive'll work just as well now as it did back then. All you need to do is decide if you want to have high inititive counts or low inititive counts be better. Then assign weapon/spell/misc. speeds. The improved inititive feat also doesn't really need all that much changing. Once you've made the desicion about high/low inititive counts, its bonus just becomes a + or - as appropriate, applied each round....
rainy 12-05-07, 03:16 PM	Improved Initiative should probably only be a +2 since the 2e initiative die was a d10, not the d20 of 3e. -rainy
Valoy_Muniz 12-06-07, 04:30 PM	I did not care for it much my self but for a quick and dirty way to do it would be. -5 init for full round actions -x for using a wepon where x is the highest damage on 1 die. -2x The spell level of the spell if it is standed casting -3x the spell level for Full round casting -0 for swift or free action. This way BOB the fighter with a dex of 18 (+4) using a single attacks with a long sword his init would be -4 on this roll (d8 is -8+4). If he attacks as a full round action it is now -9 on this roll (-8-5+4). IF he then decides to use a dagger for a singel attack it would be +0 (-4+4). The caster would be using more low level spells as they would go faster. I would also recomed some spell break the normly time like power word x.
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 02:42 PM	You could bring back the old weapon speeds/casting times to vary that. If I were going to do something like that, I'd do it the way they did initiative in Combat & Tactics rather than the standard 2E initiative. Basically, there were six segments in a round: very fast, fast, average, slow, very slow, and extra. Initiative would be rolled for each side (rather than each individual), although that could be changed. Each size creature had a base speed and each weapon had a base speed. You would act on the slower of the two in that round. Thus, a medium creature (fast) wielding a greatsword (average) would act in the average phase. The sixth "extra" phase was reserved for extra attacks (like the scimitar of speed) and for times when people changed their minds mid round (you had to declar your actions before taking them). Anyway, I would change it a bit if I used it, but the basic phase mechanic always appealed to me. There was a bit more incentive to use a smaller light weapon.
rainy 12-10-07, 03:24 PM	While that is an interesting system, it sort of lacks one of the really good elements of 2nd's system -- the gamble. "Do I try and cast this spell before the orc reaches me?"
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 04:38 PM	While that is an interesting system, it sort of lacks one of the really good elements of 2nd's system -- the gamble. "Do I try and cast this spell before the orc reaches me?" I left one part out (that you just reminded me about :P): in 2E, you rolled d10, and lower was better. With that system, if you roll a 1, not only do you go first in your phase, but your phase is accelerated (i.e. fast to very fast). Conversly, if you roll a 10, you go last in your phase, and your phase is decelerated (i.e. fast to average). So, if you're within one phase of your opponent, you run the risk of him going early or you going late. In theory, someone two phases behind you could beat you out, albiet only 1% of the time.
senecalp 12-11-07, 11:36 AM	While that is an interesting system, it sort of lacks one of the really good elements of 2nd's system -- the gamble. "Do I try and cast this spell before the orc reaches me?" Well put. What I wanted was to move away from the system of each character taking turns taking their full set of actions. Maybe a couple of specific questions: A person moves through the reach of a monster who would normal get an attack of opportunity, what happens? Does the monster get its attack on that segment? If so then weapon speed didn't apply. How does this effect its current initiative count since it may be in the counting for its weapon speed to complete to connect its attack (recall: the hit lands after a number of segments equal to the weapon speed after the attacker has has finished their move and begins their attack)? What does a caster roll to 1) avoid being hit while casting, if its possible; and 2) continue casting after being hit? How long does it take to perform a skill check if it is a standard action (I forget if this is even a possibility)? More than anything I'm hoping to find someone who has tried this and can tell me how it went, if it can work and if so, how. My current group is made up of players new to D&D and I don't want to ruin their early impressions with experimenting on them otherwise I would player test it myself.
rainy 12-11-07, 03:43 PM	Maybe a couple of specific questions: A person moves through the reach of a monster who would normal get an attack of opportunity, what happens? Does the monster get its attack on that segment? If so then weapon speed didn't apply. How does this effect its current initiative count since it may be in the counting for its weapon speed to complete to connect its attack (recall: the hit lands after a number of segments equal to the weapon speed after the attacker has has finished their move and begins their attack)? Well, an AoO really shouldn't mess with regualr initiative any more in a 2nd Ed system than in 3rd. Currently you can take a AoO either before or after your initiative order and it doesn't affect where you fall otherwise. I wouldn't think it would be any different using the 2nd Ed system. What does a caster roll to 1) avoid being hit while casting, if its possible; and 2) continue casting after being hit? Currently there are concentration checks, with feats (combat casting) and skills (concentration) built around those checks(DC10 + damage taken). In 3rd's system, you really only have to use those if someone readied an action to hit you on your initiative. Using 2nd's system just allows it to happen sometimes in the course of combat with no 'special' actions taken. There is no roll to avoid being hit, that is covered by your AC. In second you could not benefit from DEX while casting, in 3rd unless you cast defensively (requiring a DC15 + spell level) you provoke an AoO. How long does it take to perform a skill check if it is a standard action (I forget if this is even a possibility)? I think you're going to have to manufacture this yourself. In 3rd, it really depends on the skill, from a free action to a full round depending on what you're doing More than anything I'm hoping to find someone who has tried this and can tell me how it went, if it can work and if so, how. My current group is made up of players new to D&D and I don't want to ruin their early impressions with experimenting on them otherwise I would player test it myself. Me too! I so liked the system that I want to revive it, but I haven't DMed using 3rd except a one shot adventure. I did break them in on rolling initiative every round and they seemed to like that, but it does add a little more time. Just get a good system going, soon it will be old hat. In fact, if they are new players then they'd have to learn "whichever" system from the ground up. Good luck to you. Have fun. -rainy
Werral 12-13-07, 12:01 PM	This is getting a little away from initiaitve but... The gamble "should I try to cast this spell" was a big one in 2E and it wasn't all about initiative. 3E actually made wizards a lot more powerful since before they always lost any spell they were casting if they took ANY damage whereas in 3E they can usually still cast the spell even if they take damage. How about this compromise to help up the stakes of the gamble: Spellcasters who take any hp damage are unable to complete their spell that round. They must make a Concentration check to avoid losing the spell completely. Rolling a natural 1 on this check causes the spell to backfire: offensive spells blow up in the caster's face, buffs either affect the attacker or have the inverse effect (bears strength gives -4 STR etc...) That would really make it a gamble.
smoker 12-14-07, 09:32 PM	I'd combine 1e and 2e. I like using segments from 1e. 1 turn is a minute 10 rounds is a turn 10 segments is a round A spell that takes more segments then available in the current round hits the next round. smoker
TheLurkingShadows 12-15-07, 11:35 AM	To be quite honest, it had been an eternity since I last played 3rd, that when I started playing D&D again with my hubby, I had started to use the 2nd edition initiative, and totally forgot that initiative was a dex check! Never had a problem with using 2nd ed. rules with 3rd rules...as long as you are consistent with its applications.