Using Experience... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Using Experience... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darkmeer
07-20-05, 01:50 AM Okay,
I read these rules recently. They are really well thought out, and they are designated as open content. They come from the Spycraft Errata, of which Spycraft and all it's components are copyrighted by AEG, except in the portions that use D20 or D20 related material, which is intellectual property of WotC (and Copyrighted IIRC).

Here we go:

Spending experience for feats and skills.
For a feat, you spend 1000 xp for the feat plus 500 xp for EACH prerequisite (and yes, you must have the prerequisite to get the new feat, so in order to have spring attack, you must have dodge and mobility already). (i.e. Spending 1000 xp for quickdraw, or 2000 for great cleave ,<1000 for Great cleave, and 500 each for Power attack and Cleave>).

For Skills, you spend 25 times your current rank in the skill (minimum cost 25). So, for a cross class skill to bring to rank 1 would cost 50 xp (1/2 a rank is rounded to 0), while a class skill would cost 25. A 5th level Human Fighter with 3 ranks in Climb would spend 75 xp to get to rank 4, and another 100 xp to get to rank 5, while that same fighter would pay 50 xp to raise Tumble from rank 1 to rank 2.

There was also a section using xp for vitality points, but I thought that was a little too much for the D&D boards. I think it'd help out those low-int characters, while balancing with XP.

What do you think?
RaspK FOG
07-20-05, 08:07 PM They seem wondrously good! In fact, they may well be what one can do to do away with the current skill system in D&D! :D
Fargren
07-20-05, 08:16 PM I don't like. A player could take way too many feats(Iknow it's expensive, but only to a point). and the fact that they cost more the higher the requisie is is not very balancing, since they can buy the prerequisite with exp, and use normal feats to gain what they really want.
And, may I ask, How much does it take and under what circumstances it can be done?
RaspK FOG
07-20-05, 09:15 PM http://www.spycraftrpg.com/rpg/SPY%20Errata%20-%20v1.7.pdf

That's the link to the file; it is the last thing found on the last page, and you should read it before saying it's too good; not to mention you can always tweak it! ;)
Darkmeer
07-20-05, 09:46 PM Fargren,

I agree that it would take a combination of XP and normal Feats, but what about limiting them... or allowing NPC's to use them... Just think, the other PC's are all level 10, but you're level 7 with a truckload of feats. A feat is not equal to a level in my mind, nor should it be equivalent to one. I also run games where KNOWLEDGE skills are very important. All characters need them at a given time, and this allows the fighters and low-int characters to use up some XP (a treasured resource) to help out the party.

My personal tweak would be that you could have no more than 3-5 extra feats, and not limit skill points at all. You're still bound by the normal D&D rules (maximum Skill ranks). As well as spending money on Training or TUTORING. I see levels as natural training, while XP is book learning (for lack of a better term). This would limit major abuses, while allowing me to create some truly nasty villains :plotting: (party average # extra feats= villain's extra feats).

I like the idea of a fighter who can hold his own (if not win) in diplomatic relations, or tumble around someone while still being able to ride a horse. Even better, have Knowledge (local) or some such from the area he grew up and not think it's a waste. Or better yet, a Wizard who can optimize his spells, but can still be a reasonable archer (yes, I've thought these out).
On the ABUSE side: Rogues. High Skill points + xp on skills. It just means that you have to think about your XP as if it's a level.

I think it's all about customization, and following the concept you WANT, while still paying a cost. And don't huff off paying a grand total of 4500xp if you wanted to get GREAT CLEAVE as an extra (1000 for power attack, 1500 for cleave, 2000 for great cleave). I see people taking quick draw and skill focuses on this, not anything overly game breaking.
Gilean
07-21-05, 04:10 AM First, note that it mutilates the CR system, as dysfunctional as it were.
Second, this is great for monster characters, who can use xp to take feats or skills, of which they normally have but few.
Third, the cost should be higher for epic feats, and possibly epic ranks. At least feats. Epic toughness has no prerequisites aside from level.

All in all, not bad.

You might want to check out this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6752824#post6752824) system by Szatany. It has similar consequences.
Link is also in my sig.
weasel fierce
07-21-05, 04:26 AM The D20 version of Godlike has something similar to this.
Escef
07-21-05, 07:03 AM Epic Toughness is crap compared to Improved Toughness (only prereq is a +2 fort save, grants +1 hp/HD, and its benefits increase as you gain HD).
Gilean
07-21-05, 12:41 PM Epic Toughness is crap compared to Improved Toughness (only prereq is a +2 fort save, grants +1 hp/HD, and its benefits increase as you gain HD).Which is exactly why it is not allowed in my games. I don't even have the book it is from, for that matter.
Escef
07-21-05, 12:45 PM Which is exactly why it is not allowed in my games. I don't even have the book it is from, for that matter.

I dunno, it's ok. Normal toughness isn't so great. And it doesn't give 20 hp right away.

You don't have Complete Warrior?
Gilean
07-21-05, 01:15 PM I dunno, it's ok. Normal toughness isn't so great. And it doesn't give 20 hp right away.I prefer the greater toughness tree in MotW.You don't have Complete Warrior?The least old D&D books I have are Draconomicon (because there are dragons there) and UA (as I am not very happy with the rules of D&D).
No need for hordes of more or less overpowered PrCs, feats and spells. They just wouldn't get used, enough.
HailSpork
07-22-05, 01:48 PM You could base the cost on the earliest level that the feat would be made available. For feats whose only limitation is the prereqs, look at the earliest level the character could have taken it.
Perhaps 1000 xp per level?

So, Improved Critical has a prereq of +8 BAB, so it'd cost 8k to buy straight out.
Whirlwind attack would be available by level 4 for a fighter, so 4k. If a human paladin wanted it, he could have it by level 9, so it's significantly more expensive. Level 12 for a non-human, non-fighter. Note that there's only a difference like this with feats with nested prereqs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darkmeer 07-20-05, 01:50 AM	Okay, I read these rules recently. They are really well thought out, and they are designated as open content. They come from the Spycraft Errata, of which Spycraft and all it's components are copyrighted by AEG, except in the portions that use D20 or D20 related material, which is intellectual property of WotC (and Copyrighted IIRC). Here we go: Spending experience for feats and skills. For a feat, you spend 1000 xp for the feat plus 500 xp for EACH prerequisite (and yes, you must have the prerequisite to get the new feat, so in order to have spring attack, you must have dodge and mobility already). (i.e. Spending 1000 xp for quickdraw, or 2000 for great cleave ,<1000 for Great cleave, and 500 each for Power attack and Cleave>). For Skills, you spend 25 times your current rank in the skill (minimum cost 25). So, for a cross class skill to bring to rank 1 would cost 50 xp (1/2 a rank is rounded to 0), while a class skill would cost 25. A 5th level Human Fighter with 3 ranks in Climb would spend 75 xp to get to rank 4, and another 100 xp to get to rank 5, while that same fighter would pay 50 xp to raise Tumble from rank 1 to rank 2. There was also a section using xp for vitality points, but I thought that was a little too much for the D&D boards. I think it'd help out those low-int characters, while balancing with XP. What do you think?
RaspK FOG 07-20-05, 08:07 PM	They seem wondrously good! In fact, they may well be what one can do to do away with the current skill system in D&D! :D
Fargren 07-20-05, 08:16 PM	I don't like. A player could take way too many feats(Iknow it's expensive, but only to a point). and the fact that they cost more the higher the requisie is is not very balancing, since they can buy the prerequisite with exp, and use normal feats to gain what they really want. And, may I ask, How much does it take and under what circumstances it can be done?
RaspK FOG 07-20-05, 09:15 PM	http://www.spycraftrpg.com/rpg/SPY%20Errata%20-%20v1.7.pdf That's the link to the file; it is the last thing found on the last page, and you should read it before saying it's too good; not to mention you can always tweak it! ;)
Darkmeer 07-20-05, 09:46 PM	Fargren, I agree that it would take a combination of XP and normal Feats, but what about limiting them... or allowing NPC's to use them... Just think, the other PC's are all level 10, but you're level 7 with a truckload of feats. A feat is not equal to a level in my mind, nor should it be equivalent to one. I also run games where KNOWLEDGE skills are very important. All characters need them at a given time, and this allows the fighters and low-int characters to use up some XP (a treasured resource) to help out the party. My personal tweak would be that you could have no more than 3-5 extra feats, and not limit skill points at all. You're still bound by the normal D&D rules (maximum Skill ranks). As well as spending money on Training or TUTORING. I see levels as natural training, while XP is book learning (for lack of a better term). This would limit major abuses, while allowing me to create some truly nasty villains :plotting: (party average # extra feats= villain's extra feats). I like the idea of a fighter who can hold his own (if not win) in diplomatic relations, or tumble around someone while still being able to ride a horse. Even better, have Knowledge (local) or some such from the area he grew up and not think it's a waste. Or better yet, a Wizard who can optimize his spells, but can still be a reasonable archer (yes, I've thought these out). On the ABUSE side: Rogues. High Skill points + xp on skills. It just means that you have to think about your XP as if it's a level. I think it's all about customization, and following the concept you WANT, while still paying a cost. And don't huff off paying a grand total of 4500xp if you wanted to get GREAT CLEAVE as an extra (1000 for power attack, 1500 for cleave, 2000 for great cleave). I see people taking quick draw and skill focuses on this, not anything overly game breaking.
Gilean 07-21-05, 04:10 AM	First, note that it mutilates the CR system, as dysfunctional as it were. Second, this is great for monster characters, who can use xp to take feats or skills, of which they normally have but few. Third, the cost should be higher for epic feats, and possibly epic ranks. At least feats. Epic toughness has no prerequisites aside from level. All in all, not bad. You might want to check out this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6752824#post6752824) system by Szatany. It has similar consequences. Link is also in my sig.
weasel fierce 07-21-05, 04:26 AM	The D20 version of Godlike has something similar to this.
Escef 07-21-05, 07:03 AM	Epic Toughness is crap compared to Improved Toughness (only prereq is a +2 fort save, grants +1 hp/HD, and its benefits increase as you gain HD).
Gilean 07-21-05, 12:41 PM	Epic Toughness is crap compared to Improved Toughness (only prereq is a +2 fort save, grants +1 hp/HD, and its benefits increase as you gain HD).Which is exactly why it is not allowed in my games. I don't even have the book it is from, for that matter.
Escef 07-21-05, 12:45 PM	Which is exactly why it is not allowed in my games. I don't even have the book it is from, for that matter. I dunno, it's ok. Normal toughness isn't so great. And it doesn't give 20 hp right away. You don't have Complete Warrior?
Gilean 07-21-05, 01:15 PM	I dunno, it's ok. Normal toughness isn't so great. And it doesn't give 20 hp right away.I prefer the greater toughness tree in MotW.You don't have Complete Warrior?The least old D&D books I have are Draconomicon (because there are dragons there) and UA (as I am not very happy with the rules of D&D). No need for hordes of more or less overpowered PrCs, feats and spells. They just wouldn't get used, enough.
HailSpork 07-22-05, 01:48 PM	You could base the cost on the earliest level that the feat would be made available. For feats whose only limitation is the prereqs, look at the earliest level the character could have taken it. Perhaps 1000 xp per level? So, Improved Critical has a prereq of +8 BAB, so it'd cost 8k to buy straight out. Whirlwind attack would be available by level 4 for a fighter, so 4k. If a human paladin wanted it, he could have it by level 9, so it's significantly more expensive. Level 12 for a non-human, non-fighter. Note that there's only a difference like this with feats with nested prereqs.