Using feats and only one base class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Using feats and only one base class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ErlendA
06-04-06, 05:45 PM Ok... So I am toying with an idea.

What if there is only one class and no prestige classes.

A system could work like this.

BAB: Level/2
Saves: Level/3
Skill points: 2+int modifier
Feats: 1/level + 1/5 level, in addition to the usual progression for levels.
Class skills: Choose 6
Hit Points: d4

Ok, so the main idea is that a character purcases all his class features through feats.

Naturally, this would be sub-optimal for a campaign with much magic, but the idea was geared toward none or low-magic anyhow.

There would be feats like this:

Increase BAB:
Effect: Your BAB increases by one.

Increase Skills
Effect: This feat gives you +8 skill points for this level

Increase HD
Effect: This feat gives you +3d4 hp for this level

Increase Saves:
Effect: Gives +1 to two saves.

Extra Class Skills
Effect: You add two skills to your class skill list.

and so on...

It allows for massive customisation, and lets the player be in total control of the features one gets, and one could incorporate Prestige Class features as feats with steep prerequisites.
Braids
06-04-06, 06:07 PM Look in the UA forum for something called Uber Generics or something like that. It's basically where all attempts at this lead as people attempt to make it more perfected.

Also, look here:
http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm
It's more or less similar to what you suggested and is the inspiration for Uber Generics.
Cheza
06-04-06, 11:15 PM Also, look here:
http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm
It's more or less similar to what you suggested and is the inspiration for Uber Generics.
The link shows a system with multiple classes. Feats ain't balanced and multiclassing doesn't get much better.

Look in the UA forum for something called Uber Generics or something like that. It's basically where all attempts at this lead as people attempt to make it more perfected.
Uber Generics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=282481)

First: The author of this thread doesn't use "feats" as a individual increase. He uses "points".
Second: Points are priced to fit into character generation and NOT to be balanced among each other
Third: Some class-abilities aren't transformed into this system and are made "feats".

There would be feats like this:

Increase BAB:
Effect: Your BAB increases by one.

Increase Skills
Effect: This feat gives you +8 skill points for this level

Increase HD
Effect: This feat gives you +3d4 hp for this level
I use more or less an identical system. As you will see, you'll get some problems with class abilities, balancing (BAB+1 vs. weapon focus) and what I called "spend over more than one level" problems.

I use the following rules (each per feat):
BAB: +1
Caster Level: +1
Saves: 2x +1 (starts with no good save & can be spend on two different saves)
Skills: 2x +4
HD: 5x +1 HP or 5x one HD increase (d4 => d6 or d8 => d10 ...) I prefer the first one

Both BAB and caster level increases +1/4 levels automatically (to a +5 bonus on level 20). There is no good save. I made this change 'cause i can trust my players. As an adventurer, noone will survie long enough with BAB= 1/4 or wo. a good save. This gives me more individualism for NPCs and reflect "multiclassing"/race modification weaknesses in 3.0 or 3.5.

I added caster level as a BAB-like ability. This is IMPORTANT to get different scores as they are mentioned for Rangers. Many feats like spell resistance aren't measured by level (5+HD) but rather by caster level (as the divine spell). Class abilities like damage reduction increase automatically and abilities like abundant step are spell-like feats.

To ensure a balance between BAB increase and weapon focus, any focusing feat gives a +2 bonus for/against a d20 roll. I think this is more balanced a the stupid +1 bonus [vs. 1 enemy] for the dodge feat. BAB+ means a bonus for any weapon you use and possibly gives more attacks per round.
Braids
06-05-06, 03:00 AM [snip]

I was posting them to help the person on their way as the ideas involved in each system have some similarities with what the OP wants to do. I'm not telling them to use those systems instead.
ErlendA
06-05-06, 05:22 AM Thanks for the replies.

Personally, I think both Über Generics and the three class based system are a bit far from what I suggested, but I will look into it to see if there are ideas to be implemented.

Cheza: I believe you are correct in using all low saves. I will implement this as well. However, I believe your 1/4 progression in BAB and Spellcasting is not for me, as it will enormously favour spellcasting IMO, especially with the feat progression I proposed, and my intention was for this to be a system for a low-magic (as in not many full spellcasters) campaign.

I don't understand your HD-feat. Can you explain it more in detail?
Cheza
06-07-06, 03:26 PM Believe you are correct in using all low saves. I will implement this as well. However, I believe your 1/4 progression in BAB and Spellcasting is not for me, as it will enormously favour spellcasting IMO, especially with the feat progression I proposed, and my intention was for this to be a system for a low-magic (as in not many full spellcasters) campaign.
Don't know your campaign. The question is, if it's possible with the original system to get below a +10 bonus @ lvl 20? Answer: Yes. Multiclassing, monster with level-adjustment, etc. can get you a lower BAB. So if you fear several players with minimized BAB's, you shouldn't change it this way. My player of the monk often criticized, that his lower BAB means he can't make enough successful hits (especially with the limited uses per day for stunning attack). The wizard wasn't very pleased too. Any spell with ranged~ or melee touch attack seems to be unusable if he can't hit. So in many cases both will take feats to increases their chance to hit. Since we play with a kind of "defensive rating" (depending on BAB), it's even more difficult to survive long enough without some BAB increases. I CAN use this rule - thanks to my players - and so it's possible to make a well-expierienced merchant without a higher BAB than a inexpert fighter.

The caster level rating was - as already mentioned - unavoidable. So this has to be lower than or equal to 5 @ lvl 20. This prevents fighters with spellcasting levels or supernatural abilities with a high level counterpart. (Abilities like "abundant step" have caster level prerequisites)

And why should I be unfair to Wizards to make it easier to get the full BAB than to get the highest caster level? If you want a low magic level you could change it your way - you could argue "it's easier to learn how to use a sword than know the mysterious ways of magic." But for me, I just want to be fair and I would rather decrease the power of some spells - if I really have to.

It's an equality between several "favorite styles":
max. BAB = 15 feats
max. C-Lvl = 15 feats
max. Skills = 15 feats
max. HPs = 15 feats

Max. saves (= 9 feats) are a bit cheaper because I wanted to make it balanced as a feat. Would you take a +1 bonus on a single save, if you could get a +1 on all of you attacks? So this HAD to be a +2 bonus per feat and this defines the maximum possible number of feats it takes to get all your saves up.

I don't understand your HD-feat. Can you explain it more in detail?
As I told you, the greatest problems were the "When can I get it?" and "Do I want to allow the full effect at once?".

So thanks to the equality I wanted, it should take about 15 feats to get max. HPs AND it should be similar to the toughness feat. MY solution was +5 HPs per feat. But this doesn't include HP differences due hit dice rolls. So instead of getting +5 HPs per feat you can choose to increase the HD you get for one level-up.

Example:
Character Rodgar - a lvl 9 "fighter" with 54 HPs.
He gets a new level and therefore new feats. To ensure his role as a fighting machine, he decided to get more HPs. His Hit Dice for a new level is a d4 (as for all players). He could choose to get 5 additional HPs or to increase the dice he has to roll by 5 steps:

First step: d4 => d6
Second: d6 => d8
...
Fourth: d10 => d12

This should make clear how the mechanic works. But as you can see, you need only 4 HD increases, to get to the max. possible hit dice (= d12). So I decided, you don't get the full effect at once. Instead you get it split up over several level up. To get the max. possible HPs (or max. HD) at each level up, you need to take 4 feats... but not at every level-up.

Edit:
It's the same if you take +5 HPs on 4 of 5 level ups (4x 1 feat)
or
to get a +1 bonus per feat for the next 5 levels.

To get the same HP value, you also have to take it four times. The second variant has a disadvantage: You have to take all 4 feats at once!!!

So if you want to roll a d12 on your level up, you need to take the HD increase four times and now roll a d12 on five different level ups.
ErlendA
06-07-06, 06:38 PM Personally, I think spellcasting is unbalanced as is - spells and special abilities and feats make spellcasters far more powerful than for instance one who specialises in attacking at higher levels, this is why I want spellcasting to "cost more." Also note that my intention was that I wouldn't cap BAB and casting and such by the level. If a character wants to have BAB 31 at level 20 he is welcome to. However, I may change this, for if a character has 31 caster levels by level 20, spells will make up for the change. For instance, Divine Power will give him BAB, spells will also increase saves.

I can see how a defensive stat tied to BAB balances this a bit.

One thing I wondered about, though, is if one takes one spellcasting feat in the progression you use, would he then get to cast as a 6th level caster? Say, I take the "sorcerer" feat or something - then I would cast as a 6th level sorcerer at level 20 at the cost of one feat. It may be a good thing, but it certainly raises the magic level of the campaign.
Cheza
06-08-06, 09:20 PM No, no, no! You misunderstood me. There isn't a feat named "sorcerer". As with sneak attack, you have to buy it step by step.

Example:
Sneak attack (2W6):
Prerequisites: Sneak attack (1w6); lvl 3.

If you're trying to avoid level dependent prerequisites, I would choose a BAB one (that's what I made in my group).

So if you're playing a divine caster, you have to buy this feat:
Divine spell level 2:
Prerequisites: divine spell level 1; Wis 12, caster lvl 3.

The difference between an arcane caster and a divine caster is that the arcane caster gains additional "known spells" on each level up. To transfer this into the classless system, it has to be a feat.

It's not easy for me to find a mechanism you want because I changed the combat rules AND the magic chapter... But let's try:

BARBARIAN:
Hitpoints: 16 feats
20 x d12 = 130 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 80). 80 / 5HPs per feat = 16
BAB: 15 feats
Caster level: no feat
Saves: 3 feats
Skills: 5 feats
Class abilities: 10 feats (fast movement, rage, trap sense, uncanny dodge, impr. uncanny dodge, damage reduction, indomitable will, greater rage, tireless rage, mighty rage)
Flaws: -1 feat nonlawful
Proficiencies: 7 feats (SW(+2), MW(+2), LA, MA, Shield)
Total: 55

CLERIC:
Hitpoints: 8 feats
20 x d8 = 90 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 40). 40 / 5HPs per feat = 8
BAB: 10 feats
Caster level: 15 feats
Saves: 6 feats
Skills: no feat
Class abilities: 12 feats
Turn undead, 9x Spell level, domain, spontaneous casting
Flaws: -2 feats deity's alignment
Proficiencies: 6 feat (SW(+2), LA, MA, HA, Sh)
Total: 55

FIGTHER:
Hitpoints: 12 feats
20 x d10 = 110 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 60). 60 / 5HPs per feat = 12
BAB: 15 feats
Caster level: no feat
Saves: 3 feats
Skills: no feat
Class abilities: 16 feats (11 fighter feats x 1.5 (for great free choice))
Proficiencies: 9 feats (SW(+2), MW(+2), LA, MA, HA, Shield, Tower S.)
Total: 55

ROGUE:
Hitpoints: 4 feats (d6)
20 x d6 = 70 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 60). 20 / 5HPs per feat = 4
BAB: 10 feats
Caster level: no feat
Saves: 3 feats
Skills: 15 feat (+6 x 20 / 8 per feat = 15)
Class abilities: 19 feats
(10x Sneak attack, 4x special ability, trapfinding, trap sense, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion
Proficiencies: 4 feats (SW(+2), LA, special weapons(+1))
Total: 55

WIZARD:
Hitpoints: no feats
BAB: 5 feats
Caster level: 15 feats
Saves: 3 feats
Skills: no feats
Class abilities: 31 feats
Scribe Scroll, 9x Spell level, 20x Spells known, familar
Proficiencies: 1 feat
Total: 55

As you will see, rage, trapsense and damage reduction each count as one feat regardless of bonus or uses per day. The reason is quite simple. Caster level increases spells per day. BAB and character level increase uses per day. (same with high BAB => more attacks vs. high level => higher trapsense bonus).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ErlendA 06-04-06, 05:45 PM	Ok... So I am toying with an idea. What if there is only one class and no prestige classes. A system could work like this. BAB: Level/2 Saves: Level/3 Skill points: 2+int modifier Feats: 1/level + 1/5 level, in addition to the usual progression for levels. Class skills: Choose 6 Hit Points: d4 Ok, so the main idea is that a character purcases all his class features through feats. Naturally, this would be sub-optimal for a campaign with much magic, but the idea was geared toward none or low-magic anyhow. There would be feats like this: Increase BAB: Effect: Your BAB increases by one. Increase Skills Effect: This feat gives you +8 skill points for this level Increase HD Effect: This feat gives you +3d4 hp for this level Increase Saves: Effect: Gives +1 to two saves. Extra Class Skills Effect: You add two skills to your class skill list. and so on... It allows for massive customisation, and lets the player be in total control of the features one gets, and one could incorporate Prestige Class features as feats with steep prerequisites.
Braids 06-04-06, 06:07 PM	Look in the UA forum for something called Uber Generics or something like that. It's basically where all attempts at this lead as people attempt to make it more perfected. Also, look here: http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm It's more or less similar to what you suggested and is the inspiration for Uber Generics.
Cheza 06-04-06, 11:15 PM	Also, look here: http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm It's more or less similar to what you suggested and is the inspiration for Uber Generics. The link shows a system with multiple classes. Feats ain't balanced and multiclassing doesn't get much better. Look in the UA forum for something called Uber Generics or something like that. It's basically where all attempts at this lead as people attempt to make it more perfected. Uber Generics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=282481) First: The author of this thread doesn't use "feats" as a individual increase. He uses "points". Second: Points are priced to fit into character generation and NOT to be balanced among each other Third: Some class-abilities aren't transformed into this system and are made "feats". There would be feats like this: Increase BAB: Effect: Your BAB increases by one. Increase Skills Effect: This feat gives you +8 skill points for this level Increase HD Effect: This feat gives you +3d4 hp for this level I use more or less an identical system. As you will see, you'll get some problems with class abilities, balancing (BAB+1 vs. weapon focus) and what I called "spend over more than one level" problems. I use the following rules (each per feat): BAB: +1 Caster Level: +1 Saves: 2x +1 (starts with no good save & can be spend on two different saves) Skills: 2x +4 HD: 5x +1 HP or 5x one HD increase (d4 => d6 or d8 => d10 ...) I prefer the first one Both BAB and caster level increases +1/4 levels automatically (to a +5 bonus on level 20). There is no good save. I made this change 'cause i can trust my players. As an adventurer, noone will survie long enough with BAB= 1/4 or wo. a good save. This gives me more individualism for NPCs and reflect "multiclassing"/race modification weaknesses in 3.0 or 3.5. I added caster level as a BAB-like ability. This is IMPORTANT to get different scores as they are mentioned for Rangers. Many feats like spell resistance aren't measured by level (5+HD) but rather by caster level (as the divine spell). Class abilities like damage reduction increase automatically and abilities like abundant step are spell-like feats. To ensure a balance between BAB increase and weapon focus, any focusing feat gives a +2 bonus for/against a d20 roll. I think this is more balanced a the stupid +1 bonus [vs. 1 enemy] for the dodge feat. BAB+ means a bonus for any weapon you use and possibly gives more attacks per round.
Braids 06-05-06, 03:00 AM	[snip] I was posting them to help the person on their way as the ideas involved in each system have some similarities with what the OP wants to do. I'm not telling them to use those systems instead.
ErlendA 06-05-06, 05:22 AM	Thanks for the replies. Personally, I think both Über Generics and the three class based system are a bit far from what I suggested, but I will look into it to see if there are ideas to be implemented. Cheza: I believe you are correct in using all low saves. I will implement this as well. However, I believe your 1/4 progression in BAB and Spellcasting is not for me, as it will enormously favour spellcasting IMO, especially with the feat progression I proposed, and my intention was for this to be a system for a low-magic (as in not many full spellcasters) campaign. I don't understand your HD-feat. Can you explain it more in detail?
Cheza 06-07-06, 03:26 PM	Believe you are correct in using all low saves. I will implement this as well. However, I believe your 1/4 progression in BAB and Spellcasting is not for me, as it will enormously favour spellcasting IMO, especially with the feat progression I proposed, and my intention was for this to be a system for a low-magic (as in not many full spellcasters) campaign. Don't know your campaign. The question is, if it's possible with the original system to get below a +10 bonus @ lvl 20? Answer: Yes. Multiclassing, monster with level-adjustment, etc. can get you a lower BAB. So if you fear several players with minimized BAB's, you shouldn't change it this way. My player of the monk often criticized, that his lower BAB means he can't make enough successful hits (especially with the limited uses per day for stunning attack). The wizard wasn't very pleased too. Any spell with ranged~ or melee touch attack seems to be unusable if he can't hit. So in many cases both will take feats to increases their chance to hit. Since we play with a kind of "defensive rating" (depending on BAB), it's even more difficult to survive long enough without some BAB increases. I CAN use this rule - thanks to my players - and so it's possible to make a well-expierienced merchant without a higher BAB than a inexpert fighter. The caster level rating was - as already mentioned - unavoidable. So this has to be lower than or equal to 5 @ lvl 20. This prevents fighters with spellcasting levels or supernatural abilities with a high level counterpart. (Abilities like "abundant step" have caster level prerequisites) And why should I be unfair to Wizards to make it easier to get the full BAB than to get the highest caster level? If you want a low magic level you could change it your way - you could argue "it's easier to learn how to use a sword than know the mysterious ways of magic." But for me, I just want to be fair and I would rather decrease the power of some spells - if I really have to. It's an equality between several "favorite styles": max. BAB = 15 feats max. C-Lvl = 15 feats max. Skills = 15 feats max. HPs = 15 feats Max. saves (= 9 feats) are a bit cheaper because I wanted to make it balanced as a feat. Would you take a +1 bonus on a single save, if you could get a +1 on all of you attacks? So this HAD to be a +2 bonus per feat and this defines the maximum possible number of feats it takes to get all your saves up. I don't understand your HD-feat. Can you explain it more in detail? As I told you, the greatest problems were the "When can I get it?" and "Do I want to allow the full effect at once?". So thanks to the equality I wanted, it should take about 15 feats to get max. HPs AND it should be similar to the toughness feat. MY solution was +5 HPs per feat. But this doesn't include HP differences due hit dice rolls. So instead of getting +5 HPs per feat you can choose to increase the HD you get for one level-up. Example: Character Rodgar - a lvl 9 "fighter" with 54 HPs. He gets a new level and therefore new feats. To ensure his role as a fighting machine, he decided to get more HPs. His Hit Dice for a new level is a d4 (as for all players). He could choose to get 5 additional HPs or to increase the dice he has to roll by 5 steps: First step: d4 => d6 Second: d6 => d8 ... Fourth: d10 => d12 This should make clear how the mechanic works. But as you can see, you need only 4 HD increases, to get to the max. possible hit dice (= d12). So I decided, you don't get the full effect at once. Instead you get it split up over several level up. To get the max. possible HPs (or max. HD) at each level up, you need to take 4 feats... but not at every level-up. Edit: It's the same if you take +5 HPs on 4 of 5 level ups (4x 1 feat) or to get a +1 bonus per feat for the next 5 levels. To get the same HP value, you also have to take it four times. The second variant has a disadvantage: You have to take all 4 feats at once!!! So if you want to roll a d12 on your level up, you need to take the HD increase four times and now roll a d12 on five different level ups.
ErlendA 06-07-06, 06:38 PM	Personally, I think spellcasting is unbalanced as is - spells and special abilities and feats make spellcasters far more powerful than for instance one who specialises in attacking at higher levels, this is why I want spellcasting to "cost more." Also note that my intention was that I wouldn't cap BAB and casting and such by the level. If a character wants to have BAB 31 at level 20 he is welcome to. However, I may change this, for if a character has 31 caster levels by level 20, spells will make up for the change. For instance, Divine Power will give him BAB, spells will also increase saves. I can see how a defensive stat tied to BAB balances this a bit. One thing I wondered about, though, is if one takes one spellcasting feat in the progression you use, would he then get to cast as a 6th level caster? Say, I take the "sorcerer" feat or something - then I would cast as a 6th level sorcerer at level 20 at the cost of one feat. It may be a good thing, but it certainly raises the magic level of the campaign.
Cheza 06-08-06, 09:20 PM	No, no, no! You misunderstood me. There isn't a feat named "sorcerer". As with sneak attack, you have to buy it step by step. Example: Sneak attack (2W6): Prerequisites: Sneak attack (1w6); lvl 3. If you're trying to avoid level dependent prerequisites, I would choose a BAB one (that's what I made in my group). So if you're playing a divine caster, you have to buy this feat: Divine spell level 2: Prerequisites: divine spell level 1; Wis 12, caster lvl 3. The difference between an arcane caster and a divine caster is that the arcane caster gains additional "known spells" on each level up. To transfer this into the classless system, it has to be a feat. It's not easy for me to find a mechanism you want because I changed the combat rules AND the magic chapter... But let's try: BARBARIAN: Hitpoints: 16 feats 20 x d12 = 130 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 80). 80 / 5HPs per feat = 16 BAB: 15 feats Caster level: no feat Saves: 3 feats Skills: 5 feats Class abilities: 10 feats (fast movement, rage, trap sense, uncanny dodge, impr. uncanny dodge, damage reduction, indomitable will, greater rage, tireless rage, mighty rage) Flaws: -1 feat nonlawful Proficiencies: 7 feats (SW(+2), MW(+2), LA, MA, Shield) Total: 55 CLERIC: Hitpoints: 8 feats 20 x d8 = 90 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 40). 40 / 5HPs per feat = 8 BAB: 10 feats Caster level: 15 feats Saves: 6 feats Skills: no feat Class abilities: 12 feats Turn undead, 9x Spell level, domain, spontaneous casting Flaws: -2 feats deity's alignment Proficiencies: 6 feat (SW(+2), LA, MA, HA, Sh) Total: 55 FIGTHER: Hitpoints: 12 feats 20 x d10 = 110 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 60). 60 / 5HPs per feat = 12 BAB: 15 feats Caster level: no feat Saves: 3 feats Skills: no feat Class abilities: 16 feats (11 fighter feats x 1.5 (for great free choice)) Proficiencies: 9 feats (SW(+2), MW(+2), LA, MA, HA, Shield, Tower S.) Total: 55 ROGUE: Hitpoints: 4 feats (d6) 20 x d6 = 70 (- 50 for 20 x d4 standard = 60). 20 / 5HPs per feat = 4 BAB: 10 feats Caster level: no feat Saves: 3 feats Skills: 15 feat (+6 x 20 / 8 per feat = 15) Class abilities: 19 feats (10x Sneak attack, 4x special ability, trapfinding, trap sense, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion Proficiencies: 4 feats (SW(+2), LA, special weapons(+1)) Total: 55 WIZARD: Hitpoints: no feats BAB: 5 feats Caster level: 15 feats Saves: 3 feats Skills: no feats Class abilities: 31 feats Scribe Scroll, 9x Spell level, 20x Spells known, familar Proficiencies: 1 feat Total: 55 As you will see, rage, trapsense and damage reduction each count as one feat regardless of bonus or uses per day. The reason is quite simple. Caster level increases spells per day. BAB and character level increase uses per day. (same with high BAB => more attacks vs. high level => higher trapsense bonus).