Using Gestalt to Recreate Dual Classing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Using Gestalt to Recreate Dual Classing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edymnion
03-08-07, 10:20 PM Something I've been thinking of for a little while now, and it just might be doable.

One of the big complaints with 3e is multiclassing a spellcaster, as its almost always a bad idea. Straight up Gestalt is typically too powerful as well for most normal games.

But what about using the Gestalt rules as the basis for a form of 3e Dual Classing? For those that weren't around in the olden days, before multiclassing there was dual classing. You would level up so far in one class, decide to become something else, and start leveling up in the new class at lvl 1 again, but keeping all of your old stuff.

What I'm putting out here as an idea is to use the same basic idea, applied to Gestalt. Say that after 500 xp, you could buy yourself a gestalt second class. You would use the gestalt rules to figure out your stats, the xp for both classes would reset to 0, and from then out you would level each class independantly of the other.

So, lets say your Rogue hits 500 xp and decides to Dual Class over into Fighter, and becomes a Rogue 1//Fighter 1. XP resets to 0, and you're now half a level behind everybody else in xp, but you effectively have a gestalt character. You gain another thousand xp, and decide which class you want to put it in (you could split it up between the two, but lets assume it all gets dumped into one or the other per level just to keep it simple). So, when you get that next thousand xp, you could become a Rogue 2//Fighter 1, or a Rogue 1//Fighter 2. You get another thousand xp, you could then either even out to a Rogue 2//Fighter 2, or hang onto it to be half way to a Rogue 3//Fighter 1 (or visa versa).

You would gain xp as your highest level so that a Fighter 10/Wizard 1 couldn't take down a CR 10 opponent, and claim the wizard 1 gets the xp from a CR 10 encounter.

What do we think?
bartleby42
03-08-07, 11:31 PM It's not a bad idea, but will it be limited to humans?

Maybe I had my terminalogy backwards but I remember this as akin to 2nd ed multiclassing and dual classing was changing your class never to look back.

As far as to how it work mechanicaly I think it's won't work out. It has a bunch of wackiness that would be hard to explain and doesn't keep on par of a power level with normal multi-classers

Here are my examples

Let's take a charcter who wants to be a fighter wizard with 190,000 XP

Old system: Fighter 10/Wizard 10

Your system: Fighter 8//Wizard 8 with 21500 xp floating around.

And what do you do about hit-dice? Re-roll when you get a higher hit-die?

I don't think it'll work with the current rules, but with some tweaking might turn out.
Darth Sephiroth
03-09-07, 12:41 AM Gestault can work for Dual Class if you want to.
Level LA
------------
1-6 +1
7-12 +2
13-18 +3
19+ +4
Harkle
03-09-07, 12:51 AM Gestault can work for Dual Class if you want to.
Level LA
------------
1-6 +1
7-12 +2
13-18 +3
19+ +4

Don't know how balance that is but its better than splitting xp evenly between classes, no matter how you cut it with splitting xp the character falls behind dramaticly at higher levels.

If this has been playtested and balanced I'll actually try it on the next campaign I run. Currently I'm running my groups first gestalt campaign and loving ever minute of it.
Edymnion
03-09-07, 07:58 AM Here are my examples

Let's take a charcter who wants to be a fighter wizard with 190,000 XP

Old system: Fighter 10/Wizard 10

Your system: Fighter 8//Wizard 8 with 21500 xp floating around.There is a flaw with this example.
The Fighter 10/Wizard 10 is a 20th level character, and gains xp as a 20th level character.
The Fighter 8//Wizard 8 is an 8th level character, and gains xp as an 8th level character.

Why is that important? Because of the catchup clause in the 3.5 xp system.
If a character falls behind in level compared to the rest of the party, they will gain more xp than the rest of the party until they catch up in level. The farther behind they fall, the more xp they get per encounter.

In other words, you will never find a dual class character that is using this system with the same overall xp total as someone that is using straight up classes.
Szatany
03-09-07, 10:50 AM You can always use this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9906571&postcount=2)
EvilVegan
03-09-07, 12:38 PM I was planning on using gestalt rules to duplicate the multiclassing rules from 2nd edition. 2 classes would require double xp to level, 3 classes would require triple. But that would require some reworking, since a 6th level guy running around with 3rd level guys is kind of silly.

But as for dual classing, if you're intending to keep it similar to 2nd edition you'd be unable to use your 1st class' abilities until you caught up on the XP. The only things you kept in 2nd edition when you dual classed were BAB, saves, HP, and skills.
Edymnion
03-09-07, 11:12 PM But as for dual classing, if you're intending to keep it similar to 2nd edition you'd be unable to use your 1st class' abilities until you caught up on the XP. The only things you kept in 2nd edition when you dual classed were BAB, saves, HP, and skills.I have no intentions of using the 2e drawbacks, as they were rather absurd. Just the basic idea of how it worked.
EvilVegan
03-10-07, 09:07 AM Indeed! :) I always hated the way dual classing worked.
bartleby42
03-10-07, 10:10 PM Your right, I forgot about the scaling XP. Well I suppose I'll have to do a whole lot of math in order to find out exactly where a "Dual classed" charecter would be in comparison to a Multi-classed charecter.

But still there are a few unanswered questions, under current gestalt rules you only use the highest Hit Die, BAB and saves. If you have your fighter 2//wizard 3 and you gain a 3rd level in fighter what happens, do you keep the d4 hit die? Gain a d10 hit die and lose the prior levels gain (provided it was recorded)? Gain d10 hit points and lose d4 hit points? Also is there a limit as to how many classes you may be "enrolled" in at one time (I'm thinking of the iconic Fighter/wizard/thief, but afraid of COed charecters that only spen 500XP for the first level)?

Well, I'll be doing math for a bit....
bartleby42
03-12-07, 04:38 PM Okay so I did the math. Assuming that you keep you two classes as close to the same level as possible i.e. 3/4 or 5/6 you do not fall behind much at all. Instead your only half a level behind, even more halfway through the level your highest level class is at the same level as the rest of the party.

So lets look at the fighter wizards Dwane, the dual classer and Mack the multiclasser

After immediately attaining 6th level.
Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 3
Dwane is a Fighter5//Wizard 5

Halfway to 7th level
Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 3
Dwane is a Fighter 5//Wizard 6

After immediately attaining 7th level
Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 4
Dwane is a Fighter 6//Wizard 6

See a problem? I do. Dwane is more powerful than Mack in every catagory. Sure Mack has an extra hit die, but Dwanes are all d10s. At 6th level Mack has just got his 3rd level spells, while Dwane has been throughing around 4th level spells for a level now.

A quick break down of 6th level
Mack: BAB:+4, F:+4/R:+2/W:+4, Hit dice 3d10+3d4=(24 avg)
second level spells and 2 fighter feats, 3 bonus feats
Dwane: BAB:+5 F:+4/R:+1/W:+4, Hit dice 5d10=(27.5 avg)
Third level spells and 3 fighter feats, 1 wizard feat
2 bonus feats

The only thing Mack has that is better is +1 on his reflex save. I take back my prior post. The gestalt dual classed charecters will be much more powerful then the rest of the party. It would be crazy not to dual class.
Edymnion
03-12-07, 08:41 PM But still there are a few unanswered questions, under current gestalt rules you only use the highest Hit Die, BAB and saves. If you have your fighter 2//wizard 3 and you gain a 3rd level in fighter what happens, do you keep the d4 hit die?It can be solved pretty easily by putting in just a bit more book keeping. Record how many hitpoints you get every level on the side of your character sheet. If/when you dual class, and you get a higher hitdice, roll it and take the better of the two for that level.After immediately attaining 7th level
Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 4
Dwane is a Fighter 6//Wizard 6

See a problem? I do. Dwane is more powerful than Mack in every catagory. Sure Mack has an extra hit die, but Dwanes are all d10s. At 6th level Mack has just got his 3rd level spells, while Dwane has been throughing around 4th level spells for a level now.

...

The only thing Mack has that is better is +1 on his reflex save. I take back my prior post. The gestalt dual classed charecters will be much more powerful then the rest of the party. It would be crazy not to dual class.Yeah, but look at it the other way. A fighter 3/wizard 4 is completely underpowered by the default rules. He doesn't have the spells to be a caster, and he doesn't have the hitpoings to be a melee'er. That character is next to worthless at best, and an active liability to the party at worst. And the dual class is still a level behind everybody else.
bartleby42
03-12-07, 09:34 PM Yeah, but look at it the other way. A fighter 3/wizard 4 is completely underpowered by the default rules. He doesn't have the spells to be a caster, and he doesn't have the hitpoings to be a melee'er. That character is next to worthless at best, and an active liability to the party at worst. And the dual class is still a level behind everybody else.

True, but you have no reason not to. Compared to a straight wizard the dual classed version is half a level behind and has more hitpoints, better saves and a better BAB. Compared to a straight fighter in exchange for a half point of BAB you get spell casting ablity and better saves.

Right now as it stands for a LA of +1/2 you gain all of the class ablitites of one class of your choice.

I feel that being about 2 levels behind the party would make it more balenced (one spell level below and lower BAB) so how about this, I'll have to do a lot of math in order to check out though:
-You may spend 1000xp to gain a secondary (or tertiary) class. You gain all class benifits from this class as though you were a gestalt charecter. (upped from 500 to prevent having 6 or so classes all at half price, and to help keep the dual classed charecter a little farther behind)
-Your secondary class needs 50% more XP to attain it's next level than the prior class (i.e. 1500 in order to reach 2nd level for a secondary class, and 2250 for a tiertiary class)
-Your primary class may be advanced as normal.

The XP penalty should be enough to hold off the built in "catch up" clause without gimping the charecter to no end. At some point I'll try to do the math to see how far you would lag behind with such penelties. The 1000 XP should put you at about a level behind hopefully the higher you go the 50% penalty makes that gap widen.
starfire311
03-12-07, 10:17 PM . A fighter 3/wizard 4 is completely underpowered by the default rules. He doesn't have the spells to be a caster, and he doesn't have the hitpoings to be a melee'er. That character is next to worthless at best, and an active liability to the party at worst. And the dual class is still a level behind everybody else.

I agree the problem you are trying to fix is the one in which a multi class caster gets gimped, like a fighter 3/ wizard 4 and completly sucks.

I must agree that when 3E 1st came out I was in your camp, and I was looking to any possible solution to fix the problem, but now with all the source material out there, this is just about a non-issue. You got things like wizard 6/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 3/Abjurant champion 5/EK 5 that has a +17 BAB and 17th level caster.

However, one thing I must ask what do you think is "better" Fighter 6//sorceror 6 or a fighter 7 or a sorceror 7 ??

couple that with the fact that the fighter 6//sorc 6 gains more xp and you got issues IMO.

I would be interested in seeing the math on the progression for someone using your dual class system, and what it takes to level up.

Meh I might as well do it.

ok here is a chart showing what dual class level you would be vs single class after X encounters, assuming all encounters are CR equal to the single class level. This will account for the "make up" xp that is gained due to falling behind.

dual single
level level encounters
1 1 1
1/1 1 7
1/1 2 14
2/1 2 17
2/2 2 24
2/2 3 27
3/2 3 34
3/2 4 41
3/3 4 42
4/3 4 51
4/3 5 54
4/4 5 60
4/4 6 68
5/4 6 69
5/5 6 76
5/5 7 81
6/5 7 84
6/6 7 91
6/6 8 95
7/6 8 99
7/7 8 107
7/7 9 108
8/7 9 114
8/8 9 120
8/8 10 121
Edymnion
03-13-07, 07:18 PM I would be interested in seeing the math on the progression for someone using your dual class system, and what it takes to level up.

Meh I might as well do it.

ok here is a chart showing what dual class level you would be vs single class after X encounters, assuming all encounters are CR equal to the single class level. This will account for the "make up" cp that is gained due to falling behind.

dual single
level level encounters
1 1 1
1/1 1 7
1/1 2 14
2/1 2 17
2/2 2 24
2/2 3 27
3/2 3 34
3/2 4 41
3/3 4 42
4/3 4 51
4/3 5 54
4/4 5 60
4/4 6 68
5/4 6 69
5/5 6 76
5/5 7 81
6/5 7 84
6/6 7 91
6/6 8 95
7/6 8 99
7/7 8 107
7/7 9 108
8/7 9 114
8/8 9 120
8/8 10 121
Okay, stop and look at that for a minute.
The straight character is lvl 10. The dual classed is lvl 8 gestalt.
UA itself says that an LA +1 or +2 would be an effective balance. Basically, you end up getting the equivolent of a pretty hefty LA in the end, but you gain it a little at a time.
darklogic
03-13-07, 09:50 PM Could this system be used to Gestalt more than two classes?
If so, what would that look like in terms of comparative experience and encounters compared to non-multiclassed characters?
Edymnion
03-14-07, 08:20 AM Could this system be used to Gestalt more than two classes?
If so, what would that look like in terms of comparative experience and encounters compared to non-multiclassed characters?Well, it is called "dual" class, not "tri" class. :P
But I see no reason why you couldn't use it for as many classes as you wanted to buy, although it would put you farther and farther behind everybody else.
starfire311
03-14-07, 08:45 AM Well, it is called "dual" class, not "tri" class. :P
But I see no reason why you couldn't use it for as many classes as you wanted to buy, although it would put you farther and farther behind everybody else.

indeed and teh one thing that may get unbalanced by this is magic item creation, since the lower level character will be earning so much more XP, he will be more able to afford the XP to make magic items.
Edymnion
03-14-07, 12:58 PM indeed and teh one thing that may get unbalanced by this is magic item creation, since the lower level character will be earning so much more XP, he will be more able to afford the XP to make magic items.Actually, creative use of item crafting to increase your xp take is a fairly old trick, its just one that most people don't think about. You craft just enough so that you are a few points from leveling when everybody else does, then next fight you are a level behind and get more xp.

In effect, you can use item creation to get free xp, as if you do it right, the bonus xp from being lower level comes out to be more than you spent on the item, giving you a net xp boost.
Ashanti
03-19-07, 01:03 PM My gaming group have been concidering using rules very similar to the 2nd ed multiclas rules:

If you have 2 classes, say fighter/thief:

HD=d10+d6/2
BAB= Fighter BAB+Theif BAB/2
Saves=Fighter saves+Thief saves/2
Skills=Fighter+Thief/2 choose any of the skills on either list
Feats=1 every three as usual, bonus feats as approriate.
Contradictory class abilities still contradict but feats from one class count to the other e.g. a thief could wield martial weapons.

The class has just one level e.g. fighter/thief 4 but would count as a 5th (-/- level +1) level character for experience purposes.

All her abilities would be midway between the two classes so power is swapped for versitility. If she was a wizard she would have to worry about spell failure just like anyone else (unless she had the right PrC).

2nd ed multi class characters were about one level below their peers (approx) and this should be recreated here.

If you want to 3rd ed multi class you do it as normal e.g. fighter/theif 4, Wizard 4 as a ECL 9 character (2nd ed multi class -/- 4 counts as 5).

Anyone see any glaring problems here?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 03-08-07, 10:20 PM	Something I've been thinking of for a little while now, and it just might be doable. One of the big complaints with 3e is multiclassing a spellcaster, as its almost always a bad idea. Straight up Gestalt is typically too powerful as well for most normal games. But what about using the Gestalt rules as the basis for a form of 3e Dual Classing? For those that weren't around in the olden days, before multiclassing there was dual classing. You would level up so far in one class, decide to become something else, and start leveling up in the new class at lvl 1 again, but keeping all of your old stuff. What I'm putting out here as an idea is to use the same basic idea, applied to Gestalt. Say that after 500 xp, you could buy yourself a gestalt second class. You would use the gestalt rules to figure out your stats, the xp for both classes would reset to 0, and from then out you would level each class independantly of the other. So, lets say your Rogue hits 500 xp and decides to Dual Class over into Fighter, and becomes a Rogue 1//Fighter 1. XP resets to 0, and you're now half a level behind everybody else in xp, but you effectively have a gestalt character. You gain another thousand xp, and decide which class you want to put it in (you could split it up between the two, but lets assume it all gets dumped into one or the other per level just to keep it simple). So, when you get that next thousand xp, you could become a Rogue 2//Fighter 1, or a Rogue 1//Fighter 2. You get another thousand xp, you could then either even out to a Rogue 2//Fighter 2, or hang onto it to be half way to a Rogue 3//Fighter 1 (or visa versa). You would gain xp as your highest level so that a Fighter 10/Wizard 1 couldn't take down a CR 10 opponent, and claim the wizard 1 gets the xp from a CR 10 encounter. What do we think?
bartleby42 03-08-07, 11:31 PM	It's not a bad idea, but will it be limited to humans? Maybe I had my terminalogy backwards but I remember this as akin to 2nd ed multiclassing and dual classing was changing your class never to look back. As far as to how it work mechanicaly I think it's won't work out. It has a bunch of wackiness that would be hard to explain and doesn't keep on par of a power level with normal multi-classers Here are my examples Let's take a charcter who wants to be a fighter wizard with 190,000 XP Old system: Fighter 10/Wizard 10 Your system: Fighter 8//Wizard 8 with 21500 xp floating around. And what do you do about hit-dice? Re-roll when you get a higher hit-die? I don't think it'll work with the current rules, but with some tweaking might turn out.
Darth Sephiroth 03-09-07, 12:41 AM	Gestault can work for Dual Class if you want to. Level LA ------------ 1-6 +1 7-12 +2 13-18 +3 19+ +4
Harkle 03-09-07, 12:51 AM	Gestault can work for Dual Class if you want to. Level LA ------------ 1-6 +1 7-12 +2 13-18 +3 19+ +4 Don't know how balance that is but its better than splitting xp evenly between classes, no matter how you cut it with splitting xp the character falls behind dramaticly at higher levels. If this has been playtested and balanced I'll actually try it on the next campaign I run. Currently I'm running my groups first gestalt campaign and loving ever minute of it.
Edymnion 03-09-07, 07:58 AM	Here are my examples Let's take a charcter who wants to be a fighter wizard with 190,000 XP Old system: Fighter 10/Wizard 10 Your system: Fighter 8//Wizard 8 with 21500 xp floating around.There is a flaw with this example. The Fighter 10/Wizard 10 is a 20th level character, and gains xp as a 20th level character. The Fighter 8//Wizard 8 is an 8th level character, and gains xp as an 8th level character. Why is that important? Because of the catchup clause in the 3.5 xp system. If a character falls behind in level compared to the rest of the party, they will gain more xp than the rest of the party until they catch up in level. The farther behind they fall, the more xp they get per encounter. In other words, you will never find a dual class character that is using this system with the same overall xp total as someone that is using straight up classes.
Szatany 03-09-07, 10:50 AM	You can always use this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9906571&postcount=2)
EvilVegan 03-09-07, 12:38 PM	I was planning on using gestalt rules to duplicate the multiclassing rules from 2nd edition. 2 classes would require double xp to level, 3 classes would require triple. But that would require some reworking, since a 6th level guy running around with 3rd level guys is kind of silly. But as for dual classing, if you're intending to keep it similar to 2nd edition you'd be unable to use your 1st class' abilities until you caught up on the XP. The only things you kept in 2nd edition when you dual classed were BAB, saves, HP, and skills.
Edymnion 03-09-07, 11:12 PM	But as for dual classing, if you're intending to keep it similar to 2nd edition you'd be unable to use your 1st class' abilities until you caught up on the XP. The only things you kept in 2nd edition when you dual classed were BAB, saves, HP, and skills.I have no intentions of using the 2e drawbacks, as they were rather absurd. Just the basic idea of how it worked.
EvilVegan 03-10-07, 09:07 AM	Indeed! :) I always hated the way dual classing worked.
bartleby42 03-10-07, 10:10 PM	Your right, I forgot about the scaling XP. Well I suppose I'll have to do a whole lot of math in order to find out exactly where a "Dual classed" charecter would be in comparison to a Multi-classed charecter. But still there are a few unanswered questions, under current gestalt rules you only use the highest Hit Die, BAB and saves. If you have your fighter 2//wizard 3 and you gain a 3rd level in fighter what happens, do you keep the d4 hit die? Gain a d10 hit die and lose the prior levels gain (provided it was recorded)? Gain d10 hit points and lose d4 hit points? Also is there a limit as to how many classes you may be "enrolled" in at one time (I'm thinking of the iconic Fighter/wizard/thief, but afraid of COed charecters that only spen 500XP for the first level)? Well, I'll be doing math for a bit....
bartleby42 03-12-07, 04:38 PM	Okay so I did the math. Assuming that you keep you two classes as close to the same level as possible i.e. 3/4 or 5/6 you do not fall behind much at all. Instead your only half a level behind, even more halfway through the level your highest level class is at the same level as the rest of the party. So lets look at the fighter wizards Dwane, the dual classer and Mack the multiclasser After immediately attaining 6th level. Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 3 Dwane is a Fighter5//Wizard 5 Halfway to 7th level Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 3 Dwane is a Fighter 5//Wizard 6 After immediately attaining 7th level Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 4 Dwane is a Fighter 6//Wizard 6 See a problem? I do. Dwane is more powerful than Mack in every catagory. Sure Mack has an extra hit die, but Dwanes are all d10s. At 6th level Mack has just got his 3rd level spells, while Dwane has been throughing around 4th level spells for a level now. A quick break down of 6th level Mack: BAB:+4, F:+4/R:+2/W:+4, Hit dice 3d10+3d4=(24 avg) second level spells and 2 fighter feats, 3 bonus feats Dwane: BAB:+5 F:+4/R:+1/W:+4, Hit dice 5d10=(27.5 avg) Third level spells and 3 fighter feats, 1 wizard feat 2 bonus feats The only thing Mack has that is better is +1 on his reflex save. I take back my prior post. The gestalt dual classed charecters will be much more powerful then the rest of the party. It would be crazy not to dual class.
Edymnion 03-12-07, 08:41 PM	But still there are a few unanswered questions, under current gestalt rules you only use the highest Hit Die, BAB and saves. If you have your fighter 2//wizard 3 and you gain a 3rd level in fighter what happens, do you keep the d4 hit die?It can be solved pretty easily by putting in just a bit more book keeping. Record how many hitpoints you get every level on the side of your character sheet. If/when you dual class, and you get a higher hitdice, roll it and take the better of the two for that level.After immediately attaining 7th level Mack is a Fighter 3/Wizard 4 Dwane is a Fighter 6//Wizard 6 See a problem? I do. Dwane is more powerful than Mack in every catagory. Sure Mack has an extra hit die, but Dwanes are all d10s. At 6th level Mack has just got his 3rd level spells, while Dwane has been throughing around 4th level spells for a level now. ... The only thing Mack has that is better is +1 on his reflex save. I take back my prior post. The gestalt dual classed charecters will be much more powerful then the rest of the party. It would be crazy not to dual class.Yeah, but look at it the other way. A fighter 3/wizard 4 is completely underpowered by the default rules. He doesn't have the spells to be a caster, and he doesn't have the hitpoings to be a melee'er. That character is next to worthless at best, and an active liability to the party at worst. And the dual class is still a level behind everybody else.
bartleby42 03-12-07, 09:34 PM	Yeah, but look at it the other way. A fighter 3/wizard 4 is completely underpowered by the default rules. He doesn't have the spells to be a caster, and he doesn't have the hitpoings to be a melee'er. That character is next to worthless at best, and an active liability to the party at worst. And the dual class is still a level behind everybody else. True, but you have no reason not to. Compared to a straight wizard the dual classed version is half a level behind and has more hitpoints, better saves and a better BAB. Compared to a straight fighter in exchange for a half point of BAB you get spell casting ablity and better saves. Right now as it stands for a LA of +1/2 you gain all of the class ablitites of one class of your choice. I feel that being about 2 levels behind the party would make it more balenced (one spell level below and lower BAB) so how about this, I'll have to do a lot of math in order to check out though: -You may spend 1000xp to gain a secondary (or tertiary) class. You gain all class benifits from this class as though you were a gestalt charecter. (upped from 500 to prevent having 6 or so classes all at half price, and to help keep the dual classed charecter a little farther behind) -Your secondary class needs 50% more XP to attain it's next level than the prior class (i.e. 1500 in order to reach 2nd level for a secondary class, and 2250 for a tiertiary class) -Your primary class may be advanced as normal. The XP penalty should be enough to hold off the built in "catch up" clause without gimping the charecter to no end. At some point I'll try to do the math to see how far you would lag behind with such penelties. The 1000 XP should put you at about a level behind hopefully the higher you go the 50% penalty makes that gap widen.
starfire311 03-12-07, 10:17 PM	. A fighter 3/wizard 4 is completely underpowered by the default rules. He doesn't have the spells to be a caster, and he doesn't have the hitpoings to be a melee'er. That character is next to worthless at best, and an active liability to the party at worst. And the dual class is still a level behind everybody else. I agree the problem you are trying to fix is the one in which a multi class caster gets gimped, like a fighter 3/ wizard 4 and completly sucks. I must agree that when 3E 1st came out I was in your camp, and I was looking to any possible solution to fix the problem, but now with all the source material out there, this is just about a non-issue. You got things like wizard 6/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 3/Abjurant champion 5/EK 5 that has a +17 BAB and 17th level caster. However, one thing I must ask what do you think is "better" Fighter 6//sorceror 6 or a fighter 7 or a sorceror 7 ?? couple that with the fact that the fighter 6//sorc 6 gains more xp and you got issues IMO. I would be interested in seeing the math on the progression for someone using your dual class system, and what it takes to level up. Meh I might as well do it. ok here is a chart showing what dual class level you would be vs single class after X encounters, assuming all encounters are CR equal to the single class level. This will account for the "make up" xp that is gained due to falling behind. dual single level level encounters 1 1 1 1/1 1 7 1/1 2 14 2/1 2 17 2/2 2 24 2/2 3 27 3/2 3 34 3/2 4 41 3/3 4 42 4/3 4 51 4/3 5 54 4/4 5 60 4/4 6 68 5/4 6 69 5/5 6 76 5/5 7 81 6/5 7 84 6/6 7 91 6/6 8 95 7/6 8 99 7/7 8 107 7/7 9 108 8/7 9 114 8/8 9 120 8/8 10 121
Edymnion 03-13-07, 07:18 PM	I would be interested in seeing the math on the progression for someone using your dual class system, and what it takes to level up. Meh I might as well do it. ok here is a chart showing what dual class level you would be vs single class after X encounters, assuming all encounters are CR equal to the single class level. This will account for the "make up" cp that is gained due to falling behind. dual single level level encounters 1 1 1 1/1 1 7 1/1 2 14 2/1 2 17 2/2 2 24 2/2 3 27 3/2 3 34 3/2 4 41 3/3 4 42 4/3 4 51 4/3 5 54 4/4 5 60 4/4 6 68 5/4 6 69 5/5 6 76 5/5 7 81 6/5 7 84 6/6 7 91 6/6 8 95 7/6 8 99 7/7 8 107 7/7 9 108 8/7 9 114 8/8 9 120 8/8 10 121 Okay, stop and look at that for a minute. The straight character is lvl 10. The dual classed is lvl 8 gestalt. UA itself says that an LA +1 or +2 would be an effective balance. Basically, you end up getting the equivolent of a pretty hefty LA in the end, but you gain it a little at a time.
darklogic 03-13-07, 09:50 PM	Could this system be used to Gestalt more than two classes? If so, what would that look like in terms of comparative experience and encounters compared to non-multiclassed characters?
Edymnion 03-14-07, 08:20 AM	Could this system be used to Gestalt more than two classes? If so, what would that look like in terms of comparative experience and encounters compared to non-multiclassed characters?Well, it is called "dual" class, not "tri" class. :P But I see no reason why you couldn't use it for as many classes as you wanted to buy, although it would put you farther and farther behind everybody else.
starfire311 03-14-07, 08:45 AM	Well, it is called "dual" class, not "tri" class. :P But I see no reason why you couldn't use it for as many classes as you wanted to buy, although it would put you farther and farther behind everybody else. indeed and teh one thing that may get unbalanced by this is magic item creation, since the lower level character will be earning so much more XP, he will be more able to afford the XP to make magic items.
Edymnion 03-14-07, 12:58 PM	indeed and teh one thing that may get unbalanced by this is magic item creation, since the lower level character will be earning so much more XP, he will be more able to afford the XP to make magic items.Actually, creative use of item crafting to increase your xp take is a fairly old trick, its just one that most people don't think about. You craft just enough so that you are a few points from leveling when everybody else does, then next fight you are a level behind and get more xp. In effect, you can use item creation to get free xp, as if you do it right, the bonus xp from being lower level comes out to be more than you spent on the item, giving you a net xp boost.
Ashanti 03-19-07, 01:03 PM	My gaming group have been concidering using rules very similar to the 2nd ed multiclas rules: If you have 2 classes, say fighter/thief: HD=d10+d6/2 BAB= Fighter BAB+Theif BAB/2 Saves=Fighter saves+Thief saves/2 Skills=Fighter+Thief/2 choose any of the skills on either list Feats=1 every three as usual, bonus feats as approriate. Contradictory class abilities still contradict but feats from one class count to the other e.g. a thief could wield martial weapons. The class has just one level e.g. fighter/thief 4 but would count as a 5th (-/- level +1) level character for experience purposes. All her abilities would be midway between the two classes so power is swapped for versitility. If she was a wizard she would have to worry about spell failure just like anyone else (unless she had the right PrC). 2nd ed multi class characters were about one level below their peers (approx) and this should be recreated here. If you want to 3rd ed multi class you do it as normal e.g. fighter/theif 4, Wizard 4 as a ECL 9 character (2nd ed multi class -/- 4 counts as 5). Anyone see any glaring problems here?