Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Masterful_Norg 04-05-04, 03:00 AM	I've always thought of Experience components in Magic Item and Epic Spell creation as unrealistic. I can understand why Items and Spells might require the gathering of exotic and powerful materials. I do not understand why one's memories and experiences are also expended in the creation process rather than strictly soul stuff/life force/mojo. To me its much like making kraft dinner by throwing in your personal memoires. I just don't see experience points as an adequate representation of this soul stuff. For all purposes Experience and Soul Stuff have been and are considered one and the same. Experience components work as a means to limit the creation of magical items and epic spells through equal sacrifice, but I dislike the idea that you must then go and chop off a few dragon heads to replenish that loss. Seeing as this is a board where variants are the topic of discussion I thought it might be safe for me to challenge this "Sacred Cow" to a duel. Dear Sacred Cow, You have sat complacently on your throne in the realm of D&D rule land for quite long enough. I intend to end your terrible reign once and for all by challenging you to a duel. Meet me under the magnolia tree on Crooknee Hill at sundown. My second and I shall await your arrival with a weapon of your choosing. No rubber chickens, spatulas or wiffle bats. Your Adversary, Masterful_Norg What I propose is the invention of a system under which one is still limited to a reasonable number of magical items/spells that can be created, whereby that limitation does not also apply to level increase. The first Idea I'll throw off is this: Gregault the 10^100th level wizard has gained 5 X 10^46+1 experience in the process of obtaining 10^100+1st level. He therefore has a pool of virtual experience that he can spend on creating any magical items or universe destroying epic spells equal to half his total experience. This means he may create a magical item of an experience value up to 2.5 X 10^46+0.5 . In the case where a character spends some of this virtual experience and then gains more real experience the total virtual experience would be equal to the character's experience total after subtracting the virtual experience already spent. This system bars characters from making huge quantities of magical items without eventually needing to level up and it also lowers the maximum experience cost of a magical item one can create at any given level by 1/2. Additionally one could allow character's or NPCs to have a constant base of 1000 virtual experience points (could be lower) available to them to allow the constant vocational creation of very minor magical items such as in a setting with a spellcaster working class. What can I say? Just look in my sig. I like this system for my use in my own campaigns, but I'd like to hear some feedback regarding any flaws or virtues this system has. Can I have my scroll of Cow Kill now? [Edited again and again and again for multiple errors bordering on the retarded]
Thelon Fairblade 04-05-04, 09:58 AM	Okay, all the exponents really made that hard to understand. Try a few examples with characters at some benchmark levels. Like: Wiz2 making scrolls, Wiz5 making some Wondrous Items, Wiz10 making armor, and Wiz 15 doing whatever. Another idea: have non-permanent items. Caster dies: item loses magic. Or reverse the idea: item destroyed (or voluntarily depowered), caster regains his XP. So the XP aren't "spent" so much as "allocated". (idea gained from the Valdemar "Mage Winds" trilogy) Or dedicate actual power: item requires specific spell? that spell slot (or equivalent) is dedicated to that item from now on!
Tenzhi 04-05-04, 10:14 AM	I've been considering options myself. The simplest is to just forego the XP cost, double the GP costs, and add time and quests commisurate with the power of the item being crafted - pretty much the way it used to be. Another idea I've been kicking around is to have the creation of an item cost Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution points (the idea being that you permanently expend life energy during the process) that cannot be regained without deific intervention. I'd say that temporary items (such as potions, wands, or scrolls) might just cause ability damage rather than immediate loss of ability points. Some intelligent items might have come about when a wizard expended his last Constitution point on creating it.
Masterful_Norg 04-05-04, 12:36 PM	Apologies for my massive exponents. I must have been trying to be funny or something in my sleep deprived stupor. :D A better example would be this: Wiz of level -152 (just kidding)... Let's say that a wiz of 2 level has accumulated 3000 EXP up to this point and therefore has a 1500 VEXP (virtual experience) for crafting items. If he were to use 1000 of this VEXP bringing him to 500 VEXP and then gain 500 real EXP that would bring his VEXP to 750. Additionally you may choose to give all casters a constant base of 1000 virtual experience that they may use for crafting very minor magical items though it does not stack and cannot be used in conjunction with virtual experience gained from the process of gaining real experience. Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade Okay, all the exponents really made that hard to understand. Try a few examples with characters at some benchmark levels. Like: Wiz2 making scrolls, Wiz5 making some Wondrous Items, Wiz10 making armor, and Wiz 15 doing whatever. Another idea: have non-permanent items. Caster dies: item loses magic. Or reverse the idea: item destroyed (or voluntarily depowered), caster regains his XP. So the XP aren't "spent" so much as "allocated". (idea gained from the Valdemar "Mage Winds" trilogy) Or dedicate actual power: item requires specific spell? that spell slot (or equivalent) is dedicated to that item from now on! I like the item being destroyed returning experience idea for purposes of flavor, but that would only restore VEXP in this system of mine. I also like the idea of the allocation of slots, but I use recharge and spell strain magic systems alternately so that would mean that the spell slot information given in the books would be used to determine the magical item cap set on a character. I don't want to limit magic item production that way, but you certainly may in your own campaigns. Originally posted by Tenzhi I've been considering options myself. The simplest is to just forego the XP cost, double the GP costs, and add time and quests commisurate with the power of the item being crafted - pretty much the way it used to be. Another idea I've been kicking around is to have the creation of an item cost Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution points (the idea being that you permanently expend life energy during the process) that cannot be regained without deific intervention. I'd say that temporary items (such as potions, wands, or scrolls) might just cause ability damage rather than immediate loss of ability points. Some intelligent items might have come about when a wizard expended his last Constitution point on creating it. If you convert EXP to gold costs then you must limit the amount of gold a character can have exactly by the wealth by character level table. Give 10 % of all income to the use of income generating skills such as perform and 90 % for adventuring. Make sure that the 10 % portion is constantly weared down by upkeep. Another problem is that an item only costs half as much to produce as its market price which means a character can just make an item then sell it, then make two items, then sell them, then make 4 items, and so on, and so on. Thanks for the generous feedback! :D
Masterful_Norg 04-05-04, 09:06 PM	DELETED
Rosisha 04-05-04, 09:43 PM	Well I have been thinking of problems for a while, and have come up with what I think is a good solution. First, there are a few outside issues that need to be considered: 1) magic is far to common in campaign worlds (i blaim Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms for this), and 2) WAY WAY WAY WAY Too much Gold. So the first thing to do is address problem 1. The only mages and magic users are the PCs and a small few others. No Magic Schools, no Elminster like characters everywhere, AND ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC ITEM SHOPS. Thats the idea that cooks me. Anyway, once a real level of magic has been established we get to issue 2 Stop making most castles have a unrealistic amount of Gold. I mean hell, if you use price lists found in the Stronghold Builders Guide, and making 9th level items (and then the amount of items available in D&D) most worlds have to be like 90% made of Gold!!!! (Ok, thats extreme, but hopefully my point was made). So DMs should grow some spine and limit the amount of treasure their characters get (and lower levels won't hurt because that will limit just what kind of items they can make). Now that this is done.... .... we move onto the item creation. Its simple: 1) For all Items, their is no XP bonus. 2) Leave the gold cost the same. 3) This is where it gets complex: Armor, Natural, Deflection, Luck, Weapon, Ability Bonus, etc: 1 - 2 = Can make under standard rules (no XP still) 3 - 4 = Double time 5 = Requires such rare component that you must have an adventure to get some item or some such. Spell Resistance SR 13 - 15 = 5000 gp, no adventure. SR 16+ = 10,000 gp, adventure Spell Effect (1) 1st - 3rd Level = Cut cost in half, no adventure 4th - 6th Level = Regular cost 7th - 9th Level = Regular Cost, +Adventure Spell Effect (2+) Add up the number of spell levels mimiced. Then use that number on the chart above. If it is above 9, then double the price, +adventure. Don't forget to use the Second similar power, third similar power rules and such. Rosisha
Tenzhi 04-06-04, 12:06 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg If you convert EXP to gold costs then you must limit the amount of gold a character can have exactly by the wealth by character level table. Only if you're not carefully monitoring magic item creation. But that's why I'm really considering adding the ability loss in there. It's my opinion that PCs shouldn't be creating magic items pell-mell, as that should be part of the rewards (and sometimes the incentive) of adventuring. Originally posted by Rosisha AND ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC ITEM SHOPS. Hear! Hear!
Masterful_Norg 04-06-04, 01:46 AM	Ahh, but my system still adresses Experience costs for spellcasting and epic spell creation/casting. I too agree with the permanent ability or spell slot drain for the creation of magic items method in certain campaigns. However; in campaigns with working class mages this may put a heavy hamper on the feasablity of such a working class. I have never ever had a magic shop in a game of mine. They do not exist unless certain special conditions apply, which is very rare. I am intrigued by Rosisha's idea as it promotes adventuring and anything that promotes adventuring is good! :D
Tenzhi 04-06-04, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg Ahh, but my system still adresses Experience costs for spellcasting and epic spell creation/casting. True, but if you're going to seperate it from XP you may as well just have a magic item power pool by level and cut out the thousands. A Mage who gains levels as a fighter shouldn't have as much to spend on creating items as one who just gains levels as a mage.
Pystian 04-06-04, 04:55 AM	Where I come from, there is a world of difference between "Holy Cow" and "A Sacred Cow". That said, I think your post is clever both in style and content. I probably won't actually be using your idea, but it's something to think about....
Masterful_Norg 04-06-04, 08:48 PM	Noted.
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 01:03 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi I've been considering options myself. The simplest is to just forego the XP cost, double the GP costs, and add time and quests commisurate with the power of the item being crafted - pretty much the way it used to be. Another idea I've been kicking around is to have the creation of an item cost Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution points (the idea being that you permanently expend life energy during the process) that cannot be regained without deific intervention. I'd say that temporary items (such as potions, wands, or scrolls) might just cause ability damage rather than immediate loss of ability points. Some intelligent items might have come about when a wizard expended his last Constitution point on creating it. this brings the creation price to the same as the market price+quest materials.irgo no pc actully makes items,thankyouverymuchly. theres one key problem with stat loss,why will there ever be weak items?sanely you would only EVER and i do mean EVER see +10 vorpal doom swords and since pcs must have magic items to actully kill monsters,lvl3 pcs will have +10vorpal doom swords.that and it makes a single item worth an epic feat,can i trade all my +1swords for epic feats?
Tenzhi 04-07-04, 02:44 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse this brings the creation price to the same as the market price+quest materials.irgo no pc actully makes items,thankyouverymuchly. They'll either make them or find them, as there are no magic shoppes. ;) theres one key problem with stat loss,why will there ever be weak items? The obvious answer would be that a "weak" item might only cause a loss of one ability point, whereas a +10 Vorpal Sword of Doom could cost several. But, as the ability loss was only an offhand concept, I couldn't say for certain.
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 02:57 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi They'll either make them or find them, as there are no magic shoppes. ;) The obvious answer would be that a "weak" item might only cause a loss of one ability point, whereas a +10 Vorpal Sword of Doom could cost several. But, as the ability loss was only an offhand concept, I couldn't say for certain. suggestion,dont up the price.anyways there will be magic shoppes its just logical o_O and well sorta nessasary balence wise,yeah THAT part pisses me off.but im a stickler for logic and theres no logic in a non-existant market for magic items. hmmm but then no items would exist,most items arent worth a con point in exp.time to do some theorying 1con point is worth 2000gp as its 4000gp for a con +2 item that or its worth 1000gp but its permanet lets give it benefit of the doubt.2000gp is worth 400exp when detirmineing price.there force 1 con point can pay the exp cost of a 10000gp item,actully the more i think about it the more this is doable if scaled right.... 1statpoint(from any stat):item can be crafted and worth up to 10000gp 2statpoints(from same stat):20000gp 4stat points(from 2 diffrent stats):40000gp 4statpoints(from same stat):80000gp etc. if your intrested i can post the table further,just remember to let them upgrade to the gp cap.and assume most items only pay the minium of that ones bracket type(ie is it one stat item or two).and WRITE DOWN WHAT STATS ARE USED.id suggest rolling a d6 and on 1-4 it uses one stat,5-6 uses two.just roll a d6 to get the stat. edit:for the love of god do not require stats for consumeables no sane pc would pay that,and therefore no sane npc prolly would either.so A.stick with the exp cost B.multiply the expcost by 5 and add that to the creation cost(keep market price the same.)
Tenzhi 04-07-04, 03:15 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse edit:for the love of god do not require stats for consumeables The stat loss for consumeables (as I believe I mentioned previously ;) ) is handled like ability score damage - which means it's just a temporary, healable loss.
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 03:18 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi The stat loss for consumeables (as I believe I mentioned previously ;) ) is handled like ability score damage - which means it's just a temporary, healable loss. oh wait doh:embarrass:hmmm hmmm hmmmm.i just realized a small problem,loseing abilitys counts as ability drain,which can be easily healed via clerics,restoartion mmmmm.and yes i realize a simple house rule fixes that but i should note it just in case.
Tenzhi 04-07-04, 03:38 AM	This is, of course, why I specifically noted that the loss wasn't restorable via any means short of direct deific intervention. And it's not too often you'll run into a god at the local cafe. As with the virtual XP idea, though, I suppose one might be able to regain one's abilities by destroying the item they were vested in...
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 03:46 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi This is, of course, why I specifically noted that the loss wasn't restorable via any means short of direct deific intervention. And it's not too often you'll run into a god at the local cafe. As with the virtual XP idea, though, I suppose one might be able to regain one's abilities by destroying the item they were vested in... didnt notice that:D i find divine intervention a bit too easy.mostly because people who wish to discourage high level magic items tend to make low powered worlds.this brings up the logic thing.im the only 20th level cleric on the planet,MY GOD BETTER PAY ATTENTION TO MY DOINGS!
Tenzhi 04-07-04, 04:00 AM	And the God says: "I'm the God, you're the mortal. Don't get cocky with me - I gave you that power and I can just as easily take it alllll away. Be happy with what you have and don't ask for more lest I smite thee." Never try to use logic on a God - it just makes Them angry, and you won't like Them when they're angry. ;)
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 04:04 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi And the God says: "I'm the God, you're the mortal. Don't get cocky with me - I gave you that power and I can just as easily take it alllll away. Be happy with what you have and don't ask for more lest I smite thee." Never try to use logic on a God - it just makes Them angry, and you won't like Them when they're angry. ;) im more thinking"yes your the boss,yes i do what you say,but noone else has anywhere near my power who spreads your word.right now more than ever,its to our mutual benefit we get along.oh by the way can i make more really cool stuff that only your faithful can use?therefore showing more reasons to convert to my near demi-godlike friends"
Tenzhi 04-07-04, 04:34 AM	*ZOT!* and the Cleric is a smouldering pile of ash, and the God speaks to the assembled 1st level Clerics, "He was the most powerful of you and he chose to argue with me about the natural order of things rather than spread my word..." Learn from the Greek gods, I say: Mortals are your playthings - they should play nice or else... But that's wandering into a completely different subject.
DarkTouch 04-07-04, 12:49 PM	I'm rather fond of the idea of reverse engineering the quests. Look at the XP cost of the item. Take the PC's level and compare it back onto the Chart. You now have an approximate CR for creating the item. Use that CR to generate a quick quest that the PC must go on in order to obtain the rare item necessary to make the item. Don't give the PC any XP for going on this Quest. Ultimately its the same as spending the XP, but it enhances the flavor of the situation rather than soul sucking the PC's XP.
Rosisha 04-07-04, 11:44 PM	Though your idea is intriquing, creating a magic item is an experience and practice, so you should still get your XP. Mostly I dislike any idea that drains XP. But I'm not biased :) Raven!
strenoth 04-08-04, 03:28 AM	I'm considering just dropping the XP cost, and make component collecting nessecary for items costing 20,000+ GP. If the character in question is lazy, they may pay double the GP IF they are in a very large city where they could easily find some one trying to sell off things like basalisk eyes. Of course, my world is high-magic enough, with enough magical creatures that most countries and cities have specific laws regarding what creature parts can be sold (basically, if a good or neutral country, no selling parts of intelligent creatures, with rare exception, such as if a dragon who is known to be a dangerous killer is slain, then the slayer can usually call a bounty on it.)
MoonHawk 04-08-04, 02:26 PM	I agree with NO MAGIC ITEM SHOPS My solution: Use craft points variant. Replace the possibility of: raw materials GP cost + XP with: craft points+full market price GP (no XP cost) If you really want, you can leave both options in place. Questing for items can replace some or all of the full market price GP requirement, for those who want that 2nd ed feel. Of course, the proper item creation feat is still required. Their magic item production is limited by their craft points, so it won't get out of hand, and the system is balanced because it's the appropriate market price for the item. They just need the item creation feats and craft points for the priviledge of this "virtual item shop" I like it because it's simple.
Lina_Inverse 04-09-04, 06:02 AM	Originally posted by MoonHawk I agree with NO MAGIC ITEM SHOPS My solution: Use craft points variant. Replace the possibility of: raw materials GP cost + XP with: craft points+full market price GP (no XP cost) If you really want, you can leave both options in place. Questing for items can replace some or all of the full market price GP requirement, for those who want that 2nd ed feel. Of course, the proper item creation feat is still required. Their magic item production is limited by their craft points, so it won't get out of hand, and the system is balanced because it's the appropriate market price for the item. They just need the item creation feats and craft points for the priviledge of this "virtual item shop" I like it because it's simple. magic shops are a requirement in D&D for game balence,who else will buy my +5nunchucks of orc bane? and you really shouldnt make them pay full market price if you force them to expend another resoures,the correct gp value for makeing an item is. normal craft cost+expcostx5 the buy/sell value is because well people want to make a profit.
DarkTouch 04-09-04, 06:07 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse magic shops are a requirement in D&D for game balence,who else will buy my +5nunchucks of orc bane? Private Collectors? Museums? Elven Monks?
Tenzhi 04-09-04, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse magic shops are a requirement in D&D for game balence,who else will buy my +5nunchucks of orc bane? The game really won't be broken if no one will buy them, or if they'll only pay as much as they think a well-crafted pair of nunchucks is worth (and then add it to their hoard, as it was really a dragon in disguise). A player's inability to offload magic items is inconsequential if it also means they can't go around pell-mell buying them up. When magic items become a common commodity to be passed around like iron rations they lose the "magic" as it were.
Lina_Inverse 04-09-04, 07:07 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi The game really won't be broken if no one will buy them, or if they'll only pay as much as they think a well-crafted pair of nunchucks is worth (and then add it to their hoard, as it was really a dragon in disguise). A player's inability to offload magic items is inconsequential if it also means they can't go around pell-mell buying them up. When magic items become a common commodity to be passed around like iron rations they lose the "magic" as it were. oh its quite broken.as the CHALLENGE RATEING SYSTEM assumes X gp of useable wealth.now makeing magic items unbuyable is less of a problem if the pcs have enough downtime as the mages will just craft up the correct gear.but haveing old gear unsellable means that its money not going to there challenge rateing,thus decreaseing there power. im accepting of the fact you want magic items to feel more special or not cost gp.im not accepting of going against the logic of human nature,IE if something is valueable it will get sold,bought and traded.there are specility shops just for the rich IRL and i see nothing diffrent about human thinking in D&D.beyond the obvious knowledge diffrences.
Tenzhi 04-09-04, 08:46 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse oh its quite broken.as the CHALLENGE RATEING SYSTEM assumes X gp of useable wealth. So? That just means a DM will actually have to DM or something rather than relying on the book to tell him everything. DMs used to do this all the time, though it seems to have become somewhat of a lost art these days. IE if something is valueable it will get sold,bought and traded If it's particularly rare it's more likely to get passed on as a family heirloom, tucked away in a museum, buried in a ruin, captured in a war, or given as an important gift - very, VERY rarely is something like that ever bought or sold. You don't go down to the corner store and buy (or sell) the Mona Lisa or the Hope Diamond, after all.
Rosisha 04-09-04, 10:09 AM	I definitly agree with Tenzhi here, sure their are speciality shops for the rich. you can buy masterwork swords and armor, and masterwork gear there. Congradulations! Magic items should be rare, they should be unique, they should actually make a difference. As it stands, D&D 3.5 treats magic items as Gauntlet treated potions: available and disposable. And thats just ridiculous, especially if people are dumping experience points to make them! Rosisha
Lina_Inverse 04-09-04, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by Rosisha I definitly agree with Tenzhi here, sure their are speciality shops for the rich. you can buy masterwork swords and armor, and masterwork gear there. Congradulations! Magic items should be rare, they should be unique, they should actually make a difference. As it stands, D&D 3.5 treats magic items as Gauntlet treated potions: available and disposable. And thats just ridiculous, especially if people are dumping experience points to make them! Rosisha check how much the SYSTEM gives a peasent a week.its quite good:D want some math?lvl5 commonor profession max ranks takeing 10 with skill focus(duh) 10+8+3=21*5=105sp hmmm they are disposeable by the core rules,exp is plentiful.you do realize that by being only 2 levels behind(marginal) that you are going to get x2 exp?since by mid-high levels
Tenzhi 04-09-04, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse hmmm they are disposeable by the core rules We're obviously moving beyond the core rules here. ;) you do realize that by being only 2 levels behind(marginal) that you are going to get x2 exp? Unless you're using the Level-independent XP Award variant from UA.
Lina_Inverse 04-10-04, 02:53 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi Unless you're using the Level-independent XP Award variant from UA. which isnt core and brings up its own discussion for balences.and yes it is a good varient.
Wil_Hyral 04-10-04, 07:33 PM	Experience cost per spells / items do two things in the current system. The first thing they do is put a cap on how many items can be crafted as per a certain amount of time and effort (because under the current system, a wizard cannot sit atop a tower and bang out capes of whatever-have-you.) The second thing they do is slow down experience progression for item crafters (on which at least one core class is understood to excel / depend). Edited: never mind, I didn't really get the system and actually I still don't. If you could perhaps elaborate and/or simplify the exact system you're proposing, I'd appreciate it. But I too hate the whole experience thing (it almost seems like one of the guys watched The Neverending Story II). It doesn't add up to me in any sense other than the fact that they wanted to unify experience progression, and they needed to keep wizards in particular behind. I have my own system ;)
howlerhawk 04-10-04, 08:03 PM	really y should u have to lose expericne doing a spell? i mean really u should gain like an expiriance point because in life how do u loose expirence in somthing you do. thats like saying when ever i weld i get dumber. any ways i think that system is bull
Masterful_Norg 04-10-04, 09:28 PM	Well, you see... The current reasoning behind the system is that you must embody the item with personal power in order to make the magic last for an interminable length of time.
howlerhawk 04-10-04, 10:08 PM	It doesnt matter bout the time let the dm decide
Masterful_Norg 04-10-04, 10:12 PM	EXP is a representation of the personal power of which I spoke. Have you redd my alternate system Redd? Based on your comments it will probably appeal to you more than the current system.
howlerhawk 04-10-04, 11:25 PM	i admit it is somthin to try but who the heck is redd (mwahahahahaha the will never know) but i perfere not doin work and go old school than learn somthing new lol but who redd (mabye if ii lie thell never know)lol well norg if ur gunna call me by my name then ill call u by yours skye but u got a way with words
Masterful_Norg 04-11-04, 12:45 AM	Infidel! ;)
howlerhawk 04-11-04, 12:51 PM	lol who in h ell is redd
Masterful_Norg 04-11-04, 01:23 PM	Get off this thread your clogging it up! :behold:
Belegbeth 04-11-04, 03:04 PM	I like your line of thought here, Tenzhi. How about introducing something like a "risk factor" in place of the experience cost? The more powerful item, the greater the risk factor (a +1 sword would be pretty safe, a +5 sword very risky). If the wizard fails the appropriate roll, she both fails to create the item, and suffers some serious negative effects as well (e.g. -2 to CON or something). Or perhaps the item could turn out to be unintentionally cursed? There might even be a set of different possible effects, depending on how badly the wizard failed. Obviously this idea needs some more thought...
howlerhawk 04-11-04, 04:08 PM	minus 2 to con is a pretty heavy price but mabye a little bit of exp takin of would be more proper