Variant Monk idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Variant Monk idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth Sephiroth
10-13-06, 02:30 PM How effective would it be to replace the Monks Flurry of blows with Turn/Rebuke Undead as the Cleric (Probably the Banish outsider variant though)? I'm trying to aim for a more Oriental priest without any actual magic for the character to use but an Inuyasha type setting
RobbyPants
10-13-06, 02:49 PM Would he be able to use any divine feats that let you channel turn attempts into other abilities?
Darth Sephiroth
10-13-06, 02:51 PM I'm not really sure about that, at the moment the idea is yes, perhaps ditching the extra stunning fist uses and switch them back to standard progression as well then.
RobbyPants
10-13-06, 02:57 PM I'm not really sure about that, at the moment the idea is yes, perhaps ditching the extra stunning fist uses and switch them back to standard progression as well then.
Of course, you could create a whole slew of new feats just for that class...

I don't see anything terribly unbalanced by it. It gives up one of the nicer monk abilities, but they get something completely different in return.

I might make a feat that allowed you to use a turn attempt to increase the damage to your next unarmed attack (+1d6 or 2d6 good damage).
scienceman47
10-16-06, 01:41 AM Turn attempts are worthless. Flurry of blows is the only thing that allows the monk to sorta keep up in melee. Try turning stunning fist into something that hurts undead instead.
Krusk
10-16-06, 02:29 AM Turning is the only thingi like about the cleric class. Especially when you can spend them for other cool abilities. That also makes some sense as thats what i would think of when i think of traditional -nondnd-clerics and monks. A combo of those two things. Unarmed defenders of the living. Sounds like a cool idea, definatly post it when your done.
Toptomcat
10-16-06, 08:26 AM This'll be fine at lower levels, but as levels get higher the turning-monk will fall behind in power, because flurry gets so strong at higher levels.
Have you taken a look at the sohei and inkyo classes in Oriental Adventures? They both fit quite well in the role you're looking for.
Toptomcat
10-19-06, 09:44 PM My apologies- the inkyo is in the Rokugan Campaign Setting.
Bard-of-all-trades
10-20-06, 12:17 AM Not sure if this might be the angle you're going for, but have you thought about substituting the Stunning Fist for a Paladin's Smite? Then you could qualify for Improved Smiting. This would effect undead as well.

Toptomcat mentions how turning undead would fall behind in power (which I'm a little unclear on), but what if you also added Extra Turning and either Empower Turning or Quickened Turning at the levels when the Flurry would increase. Would that make it an equitable substitution?

What you might also consider doing is substituting the ability to Turn Elementals as the Elemental Domains. Then they could qualify for Elemental Smiting. This also sticks with the elemental flavor of the Shugenja class in the oriental setting.

And just to clarify, this would only be a substitution for Flurry of Blows, correct? Nothing else would be changed from the Monk class? The Monk would still retain Unarmed Strike, Unarmored AC bonus, Speed bonus, etc. It would basically be like a Cleric swapping spells for the Monk abilities minus the Flurry of Blows. Yes?
Oneiros
10-20-06, 10:19 AM I just added some changes to my campaign to make a more "monkish" cleric, and added a feature to monks which would allow them to Turn Undead (or use some other effect if they choose.)

The idea is that turning undead is just one of many Divine Channeling techniques, and there is one technique associated with each clerical domain. (Also, my Turn Undead uses a house rule version which does damage to the undead, plus some other options.)

I added these changes to beef the monk up a tad, and power down the cleric a bit. Plus, there's the cool factor of being able to do a flurry of blows with flaming fists! :D

Campaign Website main page (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/)

• Variant Cleric (Monastic) (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#Monastic)
• Variant Monk (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#Monk)
• Divine Channeling rules (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#%5B%5BDivine%20Channeling%5D%5D)
• Turn Undead variant (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#TurningUndead)
Greg K
10-20-06, 12:14 PM Perhaps, you could use the OA Shaman as a starting point.
Lina_Inverse
10-20-06, 12:43 PM How effective would it be to replace the Monks Flurry of blows with Turn/Rebuke Undead as the Cleric (Probably the Banish outsider variant though)? I'm trying to aim for a more Oriental priest without any actual magic for the character to use but an Inuyasha type setting

Takeing out a classes primary combat tool for a secondary ability(a very nice one, but secondary) is never a balanced trade.

Would you trade a wizards spellcasting for the fighters feat progression?
Instead i suggest removeing stunning fist's slot for turn undead, that would work better.
Bard-of-all-trades
10-22-06, 03:16 PM I'm a little confused here. When did Flurry of Blows become the most powerful class ability of the Monk? Or for that matter how is a Cleric's Turn/Rebuke Undead a secondary class ability?

Just wondering.
Toptomcat
10-22-06, 04:15 PM You don't think two additional attacks at the highest BAB with no penalty isn't the Monk's best feature?
Granted, at low levels it might be Wisdom to AC or unarmed damage, but the way it advances at higher levels makes it difinitively the Monk's greatest asset in combat.
Bard-of-all-trades
10-23-06, 01:26 AM Ah, I see my mistake; I missed the "combat" part of your comment. Though one might argue that Divine feats with Turn Undead uses can replicate or surpass that ability, but I'm not going to do that right now.
Darth Sephiroth
10-23-06, 02:34 AM If its not equal for you, how about boosting BAB as well then?
scienceman47
10-24-06, 09:25 PM Not to be hostile, but giving the monk turn undead in return for flurry could quite possibly be the worst idea ever.

1.Turn undead hinges on charisma, one of two abilities that the monk dumps to deal with the worst MAD in the game. A five point MAD is almost impossible for a class to deal with.

2.Turn undead is decidely worthless. ESPECIALLY at the higher levels. Its the reason divine feats exist, to try and make a low grade feature worthwhile.

3.Flurry of blows is good. Its in fact the only thing that allows the monk to participate in melee. Without it he is the worst class in DnD, not counting the NPC classes.

4.The feats that use turn undead are usually keyed towards paladins and clerics, who have above average charisma. Other example require spellcasting or such. Most give very very temporary boosts to combat ability, in return for feats.

Now then, I like the idea of a monk fighting undead, but this is not the way. Stunning fist does not work on undead and would not make a lick of sense on a undead fighing monk, why don't you try something there?
Toptomcat
10-24-06, 10:54 PM I really must plug Rokugan Campaign Setting's inkyo once more. It is precisely what you are looking for.
Bard-of-all-trades
10-24-06, 11:22 PM Not to be hostile, but giving the monk turn undead in return for flurry could quite possibly be the worst idea ever.

1.Turn undead hinges on charisma, one of two abilities that the monk dumps to deal with the worst MAD in the game. A five point MAD is almost impossible for a class to deal with.

2.Turn undead is decidely worthless. ESPECIALLY at the higher levels. Its the reason divine feats exist, to try and make a low grade feature worthwhile.

3.Flurry of blows is good. Its in fact the only thing that allows the monk to participate in melee. Without it he is the worst class in DnD, not counting the NPC classes.

4.The feats that use turn undead are usually keyed towards paladins and clerics, who have above average charisma. Other example require spellcasting or such. Most give very very temporary boosts to combat ability, in return for feats.

Now then, I like the idea of a monk fighting undead, but this is not the way. Stunning fist does not work on undead and would not make a lick of sense on a undead fighing monk, why don't you try something there?
This comes back to what I first suggested; possibly trading out Flurry for Smite. But, I'm a bit fuzzy on how a Monk could be the worst class in melee or D&D. Take away the Flurry and it still gets an improved unarmed strike progression comparable to weapons, unarmored speed comparable to spells, a better AC at least comparable to magic items, and the second best BAB in the game. I fail to see how that makes it the worst combat class or worst class altogether in D&D.
Krusk
10-24-06, 11:51 PM I fail to see how that makes it the worst combat class or worst class altogether in D&D.

some people just look at statistically how it should end up, but dont bother to actually play one and see how useful some of their abilities are. the upped movement speed and spring attack are pretty amazing. improved disarm can destroy most other melee types.

someone runs next to your unarmed monk. your turn. disarm grab his weapon and run 70 feet that way. He is not gonna be pleased.
Glensather
10-25-06, 12:50 AM I have a variant on my computer that simply takes away the Monk's Bonus Feats and gives them Turn Undead, Smite Evil, and Aura of Courage at first level (and they progress as a Cleric and Paladin, respectively). Would that work?
scienceman47
10-25-06, 03:25 AM Generally on the boards its been agreed upon that the monk is a lower tier fighter, on par with rogue depending on enemies.

Improved disarm is fine and all, but to steal it, you have to use your hand, which is at -4 for being a light weapon. Combine with the fact that the monk with its high MAD is unable to deal properly with contested rolls and you get a subpar disarmer.

The inability to wear armor is highly detrimental to his AC, meaning he will be spending more money to get a lower AC score. This has been proven mathematically in the past. A monk is 10 points behind in attack bonus if you dont use a weapon, and has a hit die that cannot stand up to punishment.

Not to say the monk is weak. He is potentially very stealthy, he is decidly swift and very difficult to take out of a fight through magic. Stunning fist enables him to work with other characters, and while his AC is low for a melee character, its the best touch AC in the game.

As per the Glensather suggestion, its okay. As long as its a scaling ability (so as to ward dips).
Lina_Inverse
10-25-06, 08:08 AM Generally on the boards its been agreed upon that the monk is a lower tier fighter, on par with rogue depending on enemies.

The rogue is an incredibly effective fighter, see sneak attack.
The correct comparison is the fighter class itself, But the monk has more utility. Not that id ever bring a monk over a rogue, but he DOES have some utility.

some people just look at statistically how it should end up, but dont bother to actually play one and see how useful some of their abilities are. the upped movement speed and spring attack are pretty amazing. improved disarm can destroy most other melee types.

someone runs next to your unarmed monk. your turn. disarm grab his weapon and run 70 feet that way. He is not gonna be pleased.

Duels are not D&D. Adventureing is. And inside an adventure disarm is extremely niche as 90% of monsters dont have weapons. Since most of your foes dont have weapon, claiming a class is a tier 2 combatent alongside the barbarian and rogue because of a feat THEY CAN TAKE AND DO BETTER WITH is laughable.
Krusk
10-25-06, 01:42 PM Duels are not D&D. Adventureing is. And inside an adventure disarm is extremely niche as 90% of monsters dont have weapons. Since most of your foes dont have weapon, claiming a class is a tier 2 combatent alongside the barbarian and rogue because of a feat THEY CAN TAKE AND DO BETTER WITH is laughable.

That was one example of how to play one, there are many others. My arguement was that the class is versitile, and decent at combat too. Not that all monks should always disarm everything. Also what percentage of BBEG's/Masterminds have weapons? what percentage of their bodygaurds have weapons? id say thast definatly worth looking into as now the hardest guys to fight will be unarmed. The feat you take negates the -4, it grants a +4.

Are you saying a barbarian and a rogue are tier two fighters? couldnt really make sense of the post. A barbarian has one job and that job is to do as much damage as fast as possible. the rogue when played proberly can be a devistating fighter thanks to sneak attack and the right selection of feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth Sephiroth 10-13-06, 02:30 PM	How effective would it be to replace the Monks Flurry of blows with Turn/Rebuke Undead as the Cleric (Probably the Banish outsider variant though)? I'm trying to aim for a more Oriental priest without any actual magic for the character to use but an Inuyasha type setting
RobbyPants 10-13-06, 02:49 PM	Would he be able to use any divine feats that let you channel turn attempts into other abilities?
Darth Sephiroth 10-13-06, 02:51 PM	I'm not really sure about that, at the moment the idea is yes, perhaps ditching the extra stunning fist uses and switch them back to standard progression as well then.
RobbyPants 10-13-06, 02:57 PM	I'm not really sure about that, at the moment the idea is yes, perhaps ditching the extra stunning fist uses and switch them back to standard progression as well then. Of course, you could create a whole slew of new feats just for that class... I don't see anything terribly unbalanced by it. It gives up one of the nicer monk abilities, but they get something completely different in return. I might make a feat that allowed you to use a turn attempt to increase the damage to your next unarmed attack (+1d6 or 2d6 good damage).
scienceman47 10-16-06, 01:41 AM	Turn attempts are worthless. Flurry of blows is the only thing that allows the monk to sorta keep up in melee. Try turning stunning fist into something that hurts undead instead.
Krusk 10-16-06, 02:29 AM	Turning is the only thingi like about the cleric class. Especially when you can spend them for other cool abilities. That also makes some sense as thats what i would think of when i think of traditional -nondnd-clerics and monks. A combo of those two things. Unarmed defenders of the living. Sounds like a cool idea, definatly post it when your done.
Toptomcat 10-16-06, 08:26 AM	This'll be fine at lower levels, but as levels get higher the turning-monk will fall behind in power, because flurry gets so strong at higher levels. Have you taken a look at the sohei and inkyo classes in Oriental Adventures? They both fit quite well in the role you're looking for.
Toptomcat 10-19-06, 09:44 PM	My apologies- the inkyo is in the Rokugan Campaign Setting.
Bard-of-all-trades 10-20-06, 12:17 AM	Not sure if this might be the angle you're going for, but have you thought about substituting the Stunning Fist for a Paladin's Smite? Then you could qualify for Improved Smiting. This would effect undead as well. Toptomcat mentions how turning undead would fall behind in power (which I'm a little unclear on), but what if you also added Extra Turning and either Empower Turning or Quickened Turning at the levels when the Flurry would increase. Would that make it an equitable substitution? What you might also consider doing is substituting the ability to Turn Elementals as the Elemental Domains. Then they could qualify for Elemental Smiting. This also sticks with the elemental flavor of the Shugenja class in the oriental setting. And just to clarify, this would only be a substitution for Flurry of Blows, correct? Nothing else would be changed from the Monk class? The Monk would still retain Unarmed Strike, Unarmored AC bonus, Speed bonus, etc. It would basically be like a Cleric swapping spells for the Monk abilities minus the Flurry of Blows. Yes?
Oneiros 10-20-06, 10:19 AM	I just added some changes to my campaign to make a more "monkish" cleric, and added a feature to monks which would allow them to Turn Undead (or use some other effect if they choose.) The idea is that turning undead is just one of many Divine Channeling techniques, and there is one technique associated with each clerical domain. (Also, my Turn Undead uses a house rule version which does damage to the undead, plus some other options.) I added these changes to beef the monk up a tad, and power down the cleric a bit. Plus, there's the cool factor of being able to do a flurry of blows with flaming fists! :D Campaign Website main page (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/) • Variant Cleric (Monastic) (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#Monastic) • Variant Monk (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#Monk) • Divine Channeling rules (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#%5B%5BDivine%20Channeling%5D%5D) • Turn Undead variant (http://home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/#TurningUndead)
Greg K 10-20-06, 12:14 PM	Perhaps, you could use the OA Shaman as a starting point.
Lina_Inverse 10-20-06, 12:43 PM	How effective would it be to replace the Monks Flurry of blows with Turn/Rebuke Undead as the Cleric (Probably the Banish outsider variant though)? I'm trying to aim for a more Oriental priest without any actual magic for the character to use but an Inuyasha type setting Takeing out a classes primary combat tool for a secondary ability(a very nice one, but secondary) is never a balanced trade. Would you trade a wizards spellcasting for the fighters feat progression? Instead i suggest removeing stunning fist's slot for turn undead, that would work better.
Bard-of-all-trades 10-22-06, 03:16 PM	I'm a little confused here. When did Flurry of Blows become the most powerful class ability of the Monk? Or for that matter how is a Cleric's Turn/Rebuke Undead a secondary class ability? Just wondering.
Toptomcat 10-22-06, 04:15 PM	You don't think two additional attacks at the highest BAB with no penalty isn't the Monk's best feature? Granted, at low levels it might be Wisdom to AC or unarmed damage, but the way it advances at higher levels makes it difinitively the Monk's greatest asset in combat.
Bard-of-all-trades 10-23-06, 01:26 AM	Ah, I see my mistake; I missed the "combat" part of your comment. Though one might argue that Divine feats with Turn Undead uses can replicate or surpass that ability, but I'm not going to do that right now.
Darth Sephiroth 10-23-06, 02:34 AM	If its not equal for you, how about boosting BAB as well then?
scienceman47 10-24-06, 09:25 PM	Not to be hostile, but giving the monk turn undead in return for flurry could quite possibly be the worst idea ever. 1.Turn undead hinges on charisma, one of two abilities that the monk dumps to deal with the worst MAD in the game. A five point MAD is almost impossible for a class to deal with. 2.Turn undead is decidely worthless. ESPECIALLY at the higher levels. Its the reason divine feats exist, to try and make a low grade feature worthwhile. 3.Flurry of blows is good. Its in fact the only thing that allows the monk to participate in melee. Without it he is the worst class in DnD, not counting the NPC classes. 4.The feats that use turn undead are usually keyed towards paladins and clerics, who have above average charisma. Other example require spellcasting or such. Most give very very temporary boosts to combat ability, in return for feats. Now then, I like the idea of a monk fighting undead, but this is not the way. Stunning fist does not work on undead and would not make a lick of sense on a undead fighing monk, why don't you try something there?
Toptomcat 10-24-06, 10:54 PM	I really must plug Rokugan Campaign Setting's inkyo once more. It is precisely what you are looking for.
Bard-of-all-trades 10-24-06, 11:22 PM	Not to be hostile, but giving the monk turn undead in return for flurry could quite possibly be the worst idea ever. 1.Turn undead hinges on charisma, one of two abilities that the monk dumps to deal with the worst MAD in the game. A five point MAD is almost impossible for a class to deal with. 2.Turn undead is decidely worthless. ESPECIALLY at the higher levels. Its the reason divine feats exist, to try and make a low grade feature worthwhile. 3.Flurry of blows is good. Its in fact the only thing that allows the monk to participate in melee. Without it he is the worst class in DnD, not counting the NPC classes. 4.The feats that use turn undead are usually keyed towards paladins and clerics, who have above average charisma. Other example require spellcasting or such. Most give very very temporary boosts to combat ability, in return for feats. Now then, I like the idea of a monk fighting undead, but this is not the way. Stunning fist does not work on undead and would not make a lick of sense on a undead fighing monk, why don't you try something there? This comes back to what I first suggested; possibly trading out Flurry for Smite. But, I'm a bit fuzzy on how a Monk could be the worst class in melee or D&D. Take away the Flurry and it still gets an improved unarmed strike progression comparable to weapons, unarmored speed comparable to spells, a better AC at least comparable to magic items, and the second best BAB in the game. I fail to see how that makes it the worst combat class or worst class altogether in D&D.
Krusk 10-24-06, 11:51 PM	I fail to see how that makes it the worst combat class or worst class altogether in D&D. some people just look at statistically how it should end up, but dont bother to actually play one and see how useful some of their abilities are. the upped movement speed and spring attack are pretty amazing. improved disarm can destroy most other melee types. someone runs next to your unarmed monk. your turn. disarm grab his weapon and run 70 feet that way. He is not gonna be pleased.
Glensather 10-25-06, 12:50 AM	I have a variant on my computer that simply takes away the Monk's Bonus Feats and gives them Turn Undead, Smite Evil, and Aura of Courage at first level (and they progress as a Cleric and Paladin, respectively). Would that work?
scienceman47 10-25-06, 03:25 AM	Generally on the boards its been agreed upon that the monk is a lower tier fighter, on par with rogue depending on enemies. Improved disarm is fine and all, but to steal it, you have to use your hand, which is at -4 for being a light weapon. Combine with the fact that the monk with its high MAD is unable to deal properly with contested rolls and you get a subpar disarmer. The inability to wear armor is highly detrimental to his AC, meaning he will be spending more money to get a lower AC score. This has been proven mathematically in the past. A monk is 10 points behind in attack bonus if you dont use a weapon, and has a hit die that cannot stand up to punishment. Not to say the monk is weak. He is potentially very stealthy, he is decidly swift and very difficult to take out of a fight through magic. Stunning fist enables him to work with other characters, and while his AC is low for a melee character, its the best touch AC in the game. As per the Glensather suggestion, its okay. As long as its a scaling ability (so as to ward dips).
Lina_Inverse 10-25-06, 08:08 AM	Generally on the boards its been agreed upon that the monk is a lower tier fighter, on par with rogue depending on enemies. The rogue is an incredibly effective fighter, see sneak attack. The correct comparison is the fighter class itself, But the monk has more utility. Not that id ever bring a monk over a rogue, but he DOES have some utility. some people just look at statistically how it should end up, but dont bother to actually play one and see how useful some of their abilities are. the upped movement speed and spring attack are pretty amazing. improved disarm can destroy most other melee types. someone runs next to your unarmed monk. your turn. disarm grab his weapon and run 70 feet that way. He is not gonna be pleased. Duels are not D&D. Adventureing is. And inside an adventure disarm is extremely niche as 90% of monsters dont have weapons. Since most of your foes dont have weapon, claiming a class is a tier 2 combatent alongside the barbarian and rogue because of a feat THEY CAN TAKE AND DO BETTER WITH is laughable.
Krusk 10-25-06, 01:42 PM	Duels are not D&D. Adventureing is. And inside an adventure disarm is extremely niche as 90% of monsters dont have weapons. Since most of your foes dont have weapon, claiming a class is a tier 2 combatent alongside the barbarian and rogue because of a feat THEY CAN TAKE AND DO BETTER WITH is laughable. That was one example of how to play one, there are many others. My arguement was that the class is versitile, and decent at combat too. Not that all monks should always disarm everything. Also what percentage of BBEG's/Masterminds have weapons? what percentage of their bodygaurds have weapons? id say thast definatly worth looking into as now the hardest guys to fight will be unarmed. The feat you take negates the -4, it grants a +4. Are you saying a barbarian and a rogue are tier two fighters? couldnt really make sense of the post. A barbarian has one job and that job is to do as much damage as fast as possible. the rogue when played proberly can be a devistating fighter thanks to sneak attack and the right selection of feats.