Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bifford 04-15-04, 04:32 AM	Normally, the save DC for a spell is 10 + spell level + ability modifier (not counting bonuses from feats and other things). At high levels, enemy saving throws become so much higher that spells with saving throws become useless. How about making save DCs equal to 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier? For every two caster levels, your save DCs go up by 1, and spell level is immaterial. How would this alter the game? The main points I can think of is that low-level spells will be used more often (because they keep working), and at epic levels spells with saving throws are no longer obsolete.
Michael Tree 04-15-04, 08:39 AM	For a non-epic game, it might make spellcasters too powerful, since all of their spells gain very high saving throws. I agree that there's a problem in epic levels though. Perhaps a compromise rule would be best: An epic caster's spell saving throw DCs all increase by +1 for every two manifester levels he has over 20.
Bifford 04-15-04, 04:25 PM	Ok, let's do a little maths then to try, using a min/maxed sorceror who started off with 18 Charisma and developed it exclusively (23 Cha at 20th level), and wears no Charisma-enhancing items nor feats that boost spell DCs. At 1st level, the save DC for a 1st-level spell would normally be 10 + 1 + 4 = 15. Under my variant, all his spells would have 10 + 0 + 4 = 14. At 10th level, the save DC for a 5th-level spell would normally be 10 + 5 + 5 = 20. Under my variant, all his spells would have 10 + 5 + 5 = 20 as a save DC. At 14th-level, the save DC for a 7th-level spell would normally be 10 + 7 + 5 = 22. Under my variant, all his spells would have 10 + 7 + 5 = 22 as a save DC. At 20th level, the save DC for a 9th-level spell would normally be 10 + 9 + 6 = 25. Under my variant, all his spells would have 10 + 10 + 6 = 26 as a save DC. In conclusion, the save DCs for the most powerful spells remain more or less the same under both systems. The big advantage of my variant is that all lower level spells have a DC just as high. At epic levels, all epic characters gain +1 to all saving throws every even-numbered level. Likewise, under my variant, the sorceror would also get +1 to his save DCs every even-numbered level. The balance established at level 20 is maintained all the way.
Krelios 04-15-04, 05:45 PM	Personally I like it. A fighter's attack bonus doesn't go down if he uses a dagger instead of a greatsword (barring Weapon Feats since they are like Wizard Specialization/Feats) so why should a wizard's primary attack value go down if he chooses to use a less damaging spell? There's no real issue with balance there, I think it's a great compromise.
Lina_Inverse 04-15-04, 05:56 PM	the problem is simple.three words.SAVE OR DIE.any decent mage has long abadoned nukes by lvl9 and now you want to make lvl12+ save or dies BETTER?!?!?!save or dies are already hard enough to resist,they already are the only factor in pc/npc survival and you want to make them BETTER O_Oi have no logical problem with this for nukes and what not,but it does reward save or die spells even more.something which is very very bad.
Cathon 04-15-04, 08:01 PM	Well you could go the 2nd Edition route and just lower the DC's for Save or Die spells, make it -4 to Spell DC. Or you could set damage dice on all save or die spells instead, but that is a lot of work. (I've seen the theory postulated that most spells are save or die spells for a normal person because of damage, therefore there should just be lots of negative energy damage for spells like slay living instead of save or die. It's a theory.)
Crashy75 04-16-04, 07:36 PM	I can't stand save or die spells anyway. I've wanted to make them drain con on a failed save but havnt' thought of a good mechanic.
Lina_Inverse 04-16-04, 07:58 PM	Originally posted by Crashy75 I can't stand save or die spells anyway. I've wanted to make them drain con on a failed save but havnt' thought of a good mechanic. well that makes em pretty much save or die too.look at poison,thats lvl3(overpowered but yeah)and deals 1d10+1d10 con damage.most people will die from 11 con damage.negative levels and con hits could work if you balence them.but theres still colorspray,sleep hold.those are save or dies or the best one ever,dominate.
Doomhawk 04-16-04, 08:54 PM	It is an interesting house rule, although I think it does make many higher-level spells less valuable. Still, I don't think it would unbalance the game terribly. My only question is, how would the Heighten Spell feat work under this system?
Bifford 04-17-04, 03:53 AM	Heighten Spell would no longer be worthwhile, as the main reason people used it was to boost save DCs. It can still be useful for punching through certain defenses based on spell level, such as a globe of invulnerability.
TieraStarr 04-19-04, 03:04 AM	This house-rule keeps pace with monster spell-like and supernatural abilities. DC is 10 +½ monster HD + ability mod. =================== However, a more complex option that would keep pace with poor saves instead of good saves would be to allow +1 DC for every three caster levels the character has above the minimum required to cast the spell. Thus a 20'th level caster casting a first level spell would have a DC of 17 + mod, and the same 20th level caster casting a 9th level spell would have a DC of 20 + mod. However, I don't think the small difference is worth the added complication, and would like to seriously consider the above-mentioned house-rule.
Michael Tree 04-19-04, 01:03 PM	I do like this rule - in fact, when 3rd edition first came out, I was annoyed that they didn't use something like it - but it would make offensive spellcasters much more powerful, and that concerns me. You're right that it gives essentially the same saving throw as a spellcaster's highest level spell, but spellcasters usually can only cast their highest level spell 2-5 times, and then have to rely on less powerful ones. At the very least, if you use this variant get rid of the Spell Focus feats. Spell DCs will be high enough as it is. Also try implementing the "+4 bonus to save against save-or-die spells". 3.5 has already done this a little bit. Look at baleful polymorph.
Bifford 04-19-04, 02:41 PM	I figure that at high levels, most wizards will discharge their highest level spells first and end the fight in a few rounds, long before they would have to fall back on their newly-boosted lower-level spells. ;)
Bifford 04-19-04, 03:06 PM	This system will also make metamagic a more viable option, especially for wizards. Under the present system, damage-dealing spells enhanced with the Empower Spell feat are still weaker than the spells of the slot level they go in, because the DC is 2 points lower. An empowered fireball does the same amount of damage as a cone of cold, but as it has the DC of a 3rd-level spell, opponents will make their Reflex saves more often. Such feats are handy for a sorceror who wants to get more out of his spell selection, but a wizard may be better off getting a higher-level version of the spell and taking a different feat. If DCs are tied to caster level rather than spell level, metamagic-enhanced spells will be just as powerful as higher-level spells.
God of Slivers 04-19-04, 10:16 PM	This is a great houserule, thats why I've been using this :D . I always found it odd that no matter what your level was your DCs never increased. This was especialy problematic in epic where saves increase every other level while your DCs only go up every eight. This rule has never unbalance the game when we played, so I see no reason not to use it. Besides, now those first level spells are viable for more than a few levels. Spell DCs in 3.5 are far from insane, saving throws are. You can buy a cloak that gives you +5 to all of your saves, but you cant buy a cloak to give you +5 to your spell DCs. Heck, the saves help you against all effects, not just magical. It's just not fair to us casters.