Post/Author/DateTime	Post
starfyredragon 01-09-06, 08:38 PM	As we all know, no two people are truely the same... (Well, except for maybe preps, though then again, we know they're all just dopplegangers passing themselves off as humans.) So why play in such a way that sends people down near identical paths? For this, I propose making D&D a classless system. I'll be continually re-working the rules for it here, the current "version" being in the first post (and if I'm not too lazy, posting the older versions afterwards). The general idea is simple: Characters - to gain abilities, stat increases, etc. - spend Powerpoints that they gain through experience, instead of "spending" XP on entire levels at once. (As a note, base races are "free", and races with a level adjustment cost XP equal to the XP for a normal character to reach their level adjustment). Method 1: Quick and Dirty (Characters made by this method will be just slightly overpowered sometimes, and slightly underpowered at others.) You start off with all simple and martial weapon profeciencies, profeciency with light, medium, and heavy armour, and shield profeciency. You get 82 "Power Points" Every Level You get Int Mod in Skill points Every Level You get Con Mod in HP Every Level You get +1 Ability Score Every Four Levels Method 2: Precise (Character's made with this method should be in constant balance with normal characters) You start off with all simple and martial weapon profeciencies, profeciency with light, medium, and heavy armour, and shield profeciency. 1st level (int mod)x4 skill ranks (int mod) skills every level after Gain (con mod) hp every level Gain normal +1 ability increase every 4 levels. 1 = + additional 100 Power Points (100 total) 2 = + additional 82 Power Points (182 total) 3 = + additional 88 Power Points (270 total) 4 = + additional 82 Power Points (352 total) 5 = + additional 64 Power Points (416 total) 6 = + additional 106 Power Points (522 total) 7 = + additional 64 Power Points (586 total) 8 = + additional 82 Power Points (668 total) 9 = + additional 88 Power Points (756 total) 10 = + additional 82 Power Points (838 total) 11 = + additional 64 Power Points (902 total) 12 = + additional 106 Power Points (1008 total) 13 = + additional 64 Power Points (1072 total) 14 = + additional 82 Power Points (1154 total) 15 = + additional 88 Power Points (1242 total) 16 = + additional 82 Power Points (1324 total) 17 = + additional 64 Power Points (1388 total) 18 = + additional 106 Power Points (1494 total) 19 = + additional 58 Power Points (1552 total) 20 = + additional 88 Power Points (1640 total) Method 3: Experience Flow - Quick and Dirty (Gameplay using this method will make characters that are vastly underpowered before 10th level equivilent, and become vastly overpowered past 10th level equivilent, but succeeds in creating more of a diablo-esque feel for the game, where you can spend XP as soon as you earn it or save it up for something better.) You start off with all simple and martial weapon profeciencies, profeciency with light, medium, and heavy armour, and shield profeciency. You may trade in 50 XP for 1 Powerpoint, gain one ability point every 22,000 experience. Method 4: Experience Flow - Scaled (Similar to the above Experience flow, in this one, the XP : PP exchange rate changes depending on your equivelent character level - which makes tracking total experience earned neccesarry.) (Considering 100pp is equivelent to 1st level character without experience, the following can be scaled depending on how the DM wants the characters to advance. If the DM wishes them to be as powerful as a normal 1st level character right before they become second, they should be started out with next-to-no powerpoints. If the DM wishes them to be slightly more balanced, start them off with 50. If the DM wishes them to always be as powerful - or more powerful - as a level permits, start them off with the full 100.) You start off with all simple and martial weapon profeciencies, profeciency with light, medium, and heavy armour, and shield profeciency. Gain (int mod) skill ranks during each XP section for free Gain (con mod) hit points during each XP section for free 1 = 10xp:1 pp 2 = 16xp:1 pp 3 = 22xp:1 pp 4 = 28xp:1 pp; gain +1 ability 5 = 37xp:1 pp 6 = 40xp:1 pp 7 = 48xp:1 pp 8 = 54xp:1 pp; gain +1 ability 9 = 59xp:1 pp 10 =66xp:1 pp 11 = 72xp:1 pp 12 = 76xp:1 pp; gain +1 ability 13 = 84xp:1 pp 14 = 90xp:1 pp 15 = 96xp:1 pp 16 = 102xp:1 pp; gain +1 ability 17 = 110xp:1 pp 18 = 114xp:1 pp 19 = 122xp:1 pp 20 = 128xp:1 pp; gain +1 ability DM note: As one interesting option for using this method, the DM may only let characters spend XP for PP at training halls, with mentors,senseis,masters,teachers, etc. to allow for a more realistic feel to the power gain. Method 5: PP Rewards This method can be quite interesting actually. What happens is the DM assigns pp as being rewards for your actions, and just tosses out the idea of XP altogether. (although the DM should keep track of the XP equivelent of the characters to scale combat accordingly, and possibly provide and XP trade ratio as appropriate (see previous method for equivelents) when characters desire to spend XP for special spells, crafting magic items, etc. This option gives the DM the most power over the game, and the DM can increase or decrease leveling as she sees fit. Example session conversation: (Player) "Yay! I killed the orc commander! I should now have enough XP to get that ability, so I can slaughter any orc I come across with! This war's as good as over." (DM) "We're not using XP, remember? You'll have to tough out the war like a real human being instead of 'leveling above it'." Also, as an interesting possibility, the DM may require players to only spend pp on abilities they actively used and those related to it. "You spent the last 3 days salughtering orcs with a battle axe and you think that makes you a better spellcaster? I don't think so buddy." or "You spent this week apprenticed under a great wizard? You may have 10pp to spend on magic spells, congrats!" (As a note, this actually gives a REASON to train in D&D.)
starfyredragon 01-09-06, 08:58 PM	Here's the basic stuff you can buy with a power point: Everything is done with the following format: Thing to buy: Cost in Powerpoints Character Basics: 1 Skill Rank: 3pp 1 Hit Point: 4pp +1 to a Base Save: 6pp 1 Feat: 12pp +1 BAB: 36pp (As a note, to further balance things, I would make armour profeciency feats done for types of armor as opposed to the 3 general categories, such as having scale mail profeciency, plate profeciency, etc., making it more like the weapon profeciencies.) Rougish Talents: +1d6 sneak attack: 12pp Trapfinding: 12pp Evasion: 12pp +1 Trap Sense: 12pp (Prereq: Trapfinding) Uncanny Dodge: 12pp (Prereq: Evasion) Improved Uncanny Dodge: 12pp (Prereq: Uncanny Dodge) Rouge Special Ability: 13pp (Prereq: +3 TrapSense, Uncanny Dodge) Barbarian Talents: Rage 1/day: 18pp Indomitable Will: 20pp Greater Rage: 20pp (Prereq: Rage Ability) Tireless Rage: 20pp (Prereq: Rage Ability) Mighty Rage: 20pp (Prereq: Greater Rage) Fast Movement: 22pp +1/-- Damage Reduction:22 Sorcerer Talents Summon Familiar: 20pp (Prereq: Spellcasting ability) Spontaneous Spellcasting: 14pp (grants the bonus spells as well, have to buy spells known) Spells per day: 1pp for (spell level-1) (ex. 1 pp for 1 level 0 per day, 10 pp for 1 level 9 per day) Sorcery Spells Known: Level 0: 1pp for 3 spells Level 1: 1pp for 2 spells Level 2: 1pp for 1 spell Level 3: 3pp for 1 spell Level 4: 4pp for 1 spell Level 5: 5pp for 1 spell Level 6: 6pp for 1 spell Level 7: 8pp for 1 spell Level 8: 9pp for 1 spell Level 9: 11pp for 1 spell (The DM may wish to put a requirement on spells known, say that you must know a number of the previous level (such as 2) before knowing any in the given level. Trade-ins: 1 Flaw: -12 pp (such as illiteracy) Give up a starting profeciency group: -24 pp *note, class abilities may take longer to aquire or shortly sooner, depending on the class they're from, but they balance out to the total cost of the whole class.
starfyredragon 01-09-06, 11:37 PM	This post I'll try to post my work (WARNING: technical mumbo-jumbo here that is probably completely useless to whoever is looking at this thread, unless they're wanting to figure out how I came to create stuff the way I did. If you're just wanting to know how to do stuff classless, SKIP THIS POSTunless you really want to get a peek at the "behind the scenes" stuff to check my math, see how I put this together, and such.)... (To make this more consice, I'm going to reduce this to variables... Base Attack Bonus = B Fortitude = F Reflex = R Will = W Feats = P Ability Increases = A Base Skill Point Increase = S Skill Point Increase based on Int = I Level = L Base HP Gain = H (going to base on average roll) Con based HP Gain = C First, we need to establish value of things in comparison to eachother, considering class abilities, by themselves, are hard to place a value on, I'm going to start with the fighter. Who gains more feats instead of abilities. Fighter B(20) + F(12) + R(6) + W(6) + P(18) + A(4) + S(48) + I(20)= 20th Level B(19) + F(11) + R(6) + W(6) + P(18) + A(3) + S(46) +I(19) = 19th Level 19-20 Change: B(+1) + F(+1) + A(1) + S(2) + I(1) = 1 Level B(1) + F(2) + S(8) + I(4) + P(2) = 1st Level B(2) + F(3) + S(10) + I(5) + P(3) = 2nd Level 1-2 Change: B(+1) + F(+1) +S(2) + IntSkillUp (1) + Feat = 1 Level So, comparing the 19-20 change and the 1-2 change, we get... Level(1) - B(1) - F(1) - S(2) - I(1) = P(1) Level(1) - B(1) -F(1) - S(2) - I(1) = A(1) Normally, this could be reduced to Ability(1) = Feat(1) However, considering Ability Increases are harder to get than feats, feats probably cost less than ability. Evidently a comparitive cost of levels needs to be made. So, instead of the cost of each increase being a straight value, its actually a combination of 2 values - base value and increase value. This will require a graph, more than likely... The progression for the fighter, mathmatically, is as such... B(L) = floor(L) F(L) = floor((L/2)+2) R(L) = floor(L/3) W(L) = floor(L/3) P(L) = floor(L/3 + 1) + floor (L/2 + 1) S(L) = floor(L*2) I(L) = floor(L) A(L) = floor(L/4) H(L) = L*5.5 C(L) = floor(L) Also, In the feats section, generally a skill-based feat will +4 in skill ranks, or a +2 in Ref, Will, or Fort, or +3 hp (toughness). Also, Point Blank Shot gives a bonus of +1 on attack rolls within 30 ft, while Far Shot, by increasing the range increment, does it for beyond 30 ft. Combined with choosing Weapon Focus for whatever melee weapon you use, generally an all around +1 BAB is worth 3 feats. So, P = 4(s) P = 2(F) P = 2(R) P = 2(W) P = 3(H) P = 1/3(B) So far, the fighter has the equivilent of... P(L) = floor((L/3)+1) + floor((L/2)+1) + (floor(L*2))/4 + (floor((L/2)+2)/2 + (floor(L/3))/2 + (floor(L/3))/2 + (L*5.5)/3 + 3(floor(L)) I(L) = floor(L) A(L) = floor(L/4) C(L) = floor(L) I,A, and C can be ignored for now since they are consistant throughout classes. The following Table is roughly how many "feats" available at each level... Level = Total (Change) 1 = 8 2/6 (+ 8 1/3) 2 = 15 1/6 (+ 6 5/6) 3 = 22 3/6 (+ 7 2/6) 4 = 29 2/6 (+ 6 5/6) 5 = 34 4/6 (+ 5 2/6) 6 = 43 3/6 (+ 8 5/6) 7 = 48 5/6 (+ 5 2/6) 8 = 55 4/6 (+ 6 5/6) 9 = 63 (+ 7 2/6) 10 = 69 5/6 (+ 6 5/6) 11 = 75 1/6 (+ 5 2/6) 12 = 84 (+ 8 5/6) 13 = 89 2/6 (+ 5 2/6) 14 = 96 1/6 (+ 6 5/6) 15 = 103 3/6 (+ 7 2/6) 16 = 110 2/6 (+ 6 5/6) 17 = 115 4/6 (+ 5 2/6) 18 = 124 3/6 (+ 8 5/6) 19 = 129 2/6 (+ 4 5/6) 20 = 136 4/6 (+ 7 2/6) (...or, an average of + 6 5/6) From here, we can begin to calculate out how much each different class ability costs. Just calculate out the cost of the class's stats with the exception of the abilities on the first level with an ability, which will leave you the aproximate cost of the ability. Once you have the cost of that ability, you can total up the stats till the next ability to get its cost, and so on, although this can get tricky for classes that are balanced over a long time rather than a short time. In such cases, it may be better to to compare compare total cost at 20 levels and split the remaining cost among abilities as seems appropriate. (Maybe giving abilities prerequisites where they seem applicable.)
Rathje 01-10-06, 01:57 AM	I'm heading off to bed in a matter of moments, so I don't have time to check math and learn formulas, so I'm just going to throw this out: in my experience building systems (I've made a total of four, fifth in the works), complexity is over-all a bad thing. Now, I didn't read too much. I started at the top and then noticed it was a long post and skipped to say that. I'm generally against posting a comment with reading the thread, but I've school tomorrow. Also, if you're open to more versatility with easy-to-use rules, I suggest taking a shot at using Warrior, Spellcaster, and Expert in Unearthed Arcana. They're base classes that can generally learn class abilities of other classes. You can make an Expert and give him Sneak Attack, then slap on Wildshape. They're meant to be used exclusively, without using the eleven base classes or anything non-core (I'm not sure about non-core class abilities to add to the list, though). That said, the stuff does look interesting. If I remember, I'll check it out next time I'm on.
starfyredragon 01-10-06, 03:07 AM	I'm heading off to bed in a matter of moments, so I don't have time to check math and learn formulas, so I'm just going to throw this out: in my experience building systems (I've made a total of four, fifth in the works), complexity is over-all a bad thing. Now, I didn't read too much. I started at the top and then noticed it was a long post and skipped to say that. I'm generally against posting a comment with reading the thread, but I've school tomorrow. Also, if you're open to more versatility with easy-to-use rules, I suggest taking a shot at using Warrior, Spellcaster, and Expert in Unearthed Arcana. They're base classes that can generally learn class abilities of other classes. You can make an Expert and give him Sneak Attack, then slap on Wildshape. They're meant to be used exclusively, without using the eleven base classes or anything non-core (I'm not sure about non-core class abilities to add to the list, though). That said, the stuff does look interesting. If I remember, I'll check it out next time I'm on. Hmm.... 12:57(by my clock which currently reads 2:07 when this post is made)... evidently you were checking this while I was still working on the math (and posting it as I went). The players won't have to deal with complex formula, just gain xp and spend pp on what they want, simple as that. The tricky part is if you want to start taking class abilities in existing stuff and figuring out how much it costs. I've started doing that, and hope to add more. Although the base stuff was highly mathmatically figured out, class abilities are a little more arbitrary, so what I've been doing is figuring out the cost of all the already buyable stuff at 20th level for a 20 level class, and then seeing how much is left to split between the remaining abilities. However, the nice thing about this is, you can still prestige class into a class from being classless, since you still have the prerequisite abilities. (Though the DM might want to limit this to only being allowed at level changes.)
Thelon Fairblade 01-10-06, 10:31 AM	I believe Haldrik already made a class, on the Classes Board, called the Paragon. It basically is exactly what you have proposed... you get so many points each level, you buy your skills and HP and saves and BAB and feats, etc. with your points. Want 10 hp? 10 pts. Want Toughness? Toughness = 3 Hp = 3 pts. Want 4 skill points = 4 pts. Want Alertness? Alertness = 2 * 2pts = 4 pts. And so on.
Millennium 01-10-06, 12:51 PM	As we all know, no two people are truely the same... (Well, except for maybe preps, though then again, we know they're all just dopplegangers passing themselves off as humans.) ...and goths, and emo-kids, and skaters... So why play in such a way that sends people down near identical paths? For multiple reasons, actually... 1) No two people are truly the same, but you'd be surprised how similar two different people can be. It's estimated that 99% of the human genome is identical between all human beings, barring genetic diseases. 2) Depending on the path you intend to walk in life, there is a certain core skill set that you're just plain going to need. This isn't a Good Thing or a Bad Thing, it just is. Furthermore, some of these skills build upon other skills learned earlier, to the point where you can fit a fair number of them into a more or less linear progression. 3) It's a rare child indeed who learn to walk before they can crawl. Some do, of course -I did, in fact- but this is rare, and believe it or not it usually provides surprisingly little benefit; crawling develops certain motor skills which you're going to have to go back and pick up later if you didn't develop them the first time. 4) In no meaningful way are the paths "nearly identical" unless you're munchkinning. Feats and skills provide ample opportunity for character customization, while classes represent core "skill sets" for more over-arching archetypes. There may be certain cases where the classes are not generic enough, but this is what the Generic Classes variant of Unearthed Arcana is for. The general idea is simple: Characters - to gain abilities, stat increases, etc. - spend Powerpoints that they gain through experience, instead of "spending" XP on entire levels at once. (As a note, base races are "free", and races with a level adjustment cost XP equal to the XP for a normal character to reach their level adjustment). This sounds like Anime d20 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/animesrd.html)'s Character Points system. You might want to take a look. They even have a "classless class" which they call the Adventurer; its sole class feature is that it gets a set number of Character Points every level. It can work quite well as a transitional class if you're going from class-based to point-buy. Frankly, I'm not a fan of point-buy systems. The supposed "realism" is often anything but realistic; progressing in a logical fashion is extremely difficult to the point where people often end up just min-maxing because it's easier than keeping track of where you've been. Forgive me if I look askance at a that makes it easier to ruthlessly munchkin than it is to just play a believable character.
starfyredragon 01-10-06, 01:42 PM	...and goths, and emo-kids, and skaters...Actually, in my experience, there is more varieity in those groups than prep-dom. In those groups, I notice if you do something completely whacked and out of the norm, people are generally like "cool", but in prepdom if you do something completely whacked and out of the norm, you're sneered at. I've been on both sides of the line in my life, and they are drastically different (although the groups you mentioned DO tend to have a lot in common, but that's because of emulation, not discrimination. For multiple reasons, actually... 1) No two people are truly the same, but you'd be surprised how similar two different people can be. It's estimated that 99% of the human genome is identical between all human beings, barring genetic diseases. Yes, and as we all know, there are no species besides human in D&D. :rolleyes: Besides, that 1% difference, if written out in genetic sequencing, would still be more than is in 20 encyclopedias. That's a lot more than 1 character sheet. 2) Depending on the path you intend to walk in life, there is a certain core skill set that you're just plain going to need. This isn't a Good Thing or a Bad Thing, it just is. Furthermore, some of these skills build upon other skills learned earlier, to the point where you can fit a fair number of them into a more or less linear progression.And what if you chose a walk that no one had gone on before? Granted it doesn't happen all the time, but people happen to do that every now and then. 3) It's a rare child indeed who learn to walk before they can crawl. Some do, of course -I did, in fact- but this is rare, and believe it or not it usually provides surprisingly little benefit; crawling develops certain motor skills which you're going to have to go back and pick up later if you didn't develop them the first time. True, but you'd be surprised how many people learn how to take apart a computer before they can program one, and also vice-versa. Many "progressions" don't neccesarrily need to progress that way at all. (Like say I was working on techniques to improve my endurance, to give me effectively damage reduction, why in the heck would a barbarian rage have to be required to learn it?) 4) In no meaningful way are the paths "nearly identical" unless you're munchkinning. Feats and skills provide ample opportunity for character customization, while classes represent core "skill sets" for more over-arching archetypes. There may be certain cases where the classes are not generic enough, but this is what the Generic Classes variant of Unearthed Arcana is for.And some people (such as myself) beleive those "generic" classes are far from being generic enough, hence this classless system. I learnt from a nice system called Mutants&Masterminds how free-ing doing this can be, however, it wasn't nearly well balanced with normal D&D. This sounds like Anime d20 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/animesrd.html)'s Character Points system. You might want to take a look. They even have a "classless class" which they call the Adventurer; its sole class feature is that it gets a set number of Character Points every level. It can work quite well as a transitional class if you're going from class-based to point-buy.I actually own that book... nice, good stuff to it. Although I think they do too much complex work-around, and they're adventurer class is underpowered as well as not "generic" enough in my opinion. Also, if you notice, some of the options I put forth here allow you to practically toss out even the arbitrary level system almost out the window. Frankly, I'm not a fan of point-buy systems. The supposed "realism" is often anything but realistic; progressing in a logical fashion is extremely difficult to the point where people often end up just min-maxing because it's easier than keeping track of where you've been. Forgive me if I look askance at a that makes it easier to ruthlessly munchkin than it is to just play a believable character. I personally disagree with you there. People are very "min-max"y in their day to day lives. How many expert "high level" computer programmers do you know that can bench-press 140lbs and would automatically do better with a rifle than a mostly green but trained foot soldier who's seen combat just once? How many college philosophers do you know that would be able to make the reflex to dodge an explosion? Also, it leads to less min/maxing in some situations (especially when they just get a point here, and a point there, instead of a whole skew of points at once), such as "Hey... in this upcoming battle, I'm going to have to fight a flying opponent, I better learn how to do something ranged." And then next week "I can't beleive I was dominated by a mind flayer for the whole session, I don't want that to happen again, I'm going to work on my will." You get more reaction to character building instead of just goal oriented, and it's also more likely they'll leave gaping openings for a DM to exploit if they try to min/max. :cool:
starfyredragon 01-10-06, 01:50 PM	I believe Haldrik already made a class, on the Classes Board, called the Paragon. It basically is exactly what you have proposed... you get so many points each level, you buy your skills and HP and saves and BAB and feats, etc. with your points. Want 10 hp? 10 pts. Want Toughness? Toughness = 3 Hp = 3 pts. Want 4 skill points = 4 pts. Want Alertness? Alertness = 2 * 2pts = 4 pts. And so on. (Looking for what you mentioned as I type) Sounds good, but what I'm suggesting is slightly different. If you'll notice, mine is also trying to break from the whole level paradigm but still allow you to keep on par with the other characters with the same XP. Also, I'm trying to do this to make it compatible with as much existing material as possible without having to make special rules for everything. (For example, makes things much more accessible when feats all cost the same, so you don't need to make new costs for every new feat.), and even provide at least some simbilance of a way to figure out the cost of class abilities. (For example, say Henry loves wild shape, but magic, for the most part, isn't something he's interested in. Why force him to continually learn new spells if he wants to focus on wild shape?)
starfyredragon 01-10-06, 02:18 PM	Looking through my stuff, I'm quite proud of how balanced I managed to pull this off being, but I have the gut-feeling I'm overlooking a mathmatical flaw somewhere, if anyone wanted to check my math, I'd be glad.
Thelon Fairblade 01-10-06, 02:25 PM	D&D is a level-based system. It is an inherent benchmark in the game. It provides the guideline for all other measurements (spell power, appropriate cash, appropriate foes, etc.). A level-less player system put into the rest of the mechanics will result in characters being too weak or too strong half the time. D&D is a class-based system, but can be forced into almost-classless with variants (Generic Classes) and home rules (Crave's UberGenerics, Haldrik's Paragon, your rules, etc.). I have struggled with the creation of so many new classes that I just want a custom-class or generic-class system for my players to design as they choose -- but be balanced to each other. I tend toward really complicated systems... and then reactionarily snap back to super-simple. Right now, I'm in a snap-back mode -- I let players pick the class that seems closest to what they want, and then swap things in and out. Want a divine partial caster with an animal companion? Bard, divine spells instead of arcane, companion instead of music, tweak weapons and skill sets. Want a World of Warcraft Warrior? Barbarian, remove trap sense, add extra feats, and just make up "stance" benefits and limitations. Want a druid who loves wildshape and dosn't care about casting? There's a variant for that in UA. and so on.
Lina_Inverse 01-10-06, 04:53 PM	Diversity only exists because of what charecters cant do. If everyone can do everything then no one matters. Not mattering is anathema to haveing fun. Class systems exist to enforce diversity, they exist to make the game more fun.
starfyredragon 01-10-06, 08:12 PM	D&D is a level-based system. It is an inherent benchmark in the game. It provides the guideline for all other measurements (spell power, appropriate cash, appropriate foes, etc.). A level-less player system put into the rest of the mechanics will result in characters being too weak or too strong half the time. D&D is a class-based system, but can be forced into almost-classless with variants (Generic Classes) and home rules (Crave's UberGenerics, Haldrik's Paragon, your rules, etc.). I have struggled with the creation of so many new classes that I just want a custom-class or generic-class system for my players to design as they choose -- but be balanced to each other. I tend toward really complicated systems... and then reactionarily snap back to super-simple. Right now, I'm in a snap-back mode -- I let players pick the class that seems closest to what they want, and then swap things in and out. Want a divine partial caster with an animal companion? Bard, divine spells instead of arcane, companion instead of music, tweak weapons and skill sets. Want a World of Warcraft Warrior? Barbarian, remove trap sense, add extra feats, and just make up "stance" benefits and limitations. Want a druid who loves wildshape and dosn't care about casting? There's a variant for that in UA. and so on. That's pretty much what I'm attempting here, a simple and balanced class-less variant. Granted, it's not for every DM, but I am striving to make it balanced. The option to go level-less is just a nice added bonus. (As a note, it wouldn't be level-less, completely. The DM would still have to track power points and scale encounters and treasure according to the level equivelent, but as far as the players are concerned, they'd be playing completely open.)
starfyredragon 01-10-06, 08:17 PM	Diversity only exists because of what charecters cant do. If everyone can do everything then no one matters. Not mattering is anathema to haveing fun. Class systems exist to enforce diversity, they exist to make the game more fun.If you've ever played Mutants & Masterminds, you'd know that classless, although it doesn't force diversity, often ends up causing it in spades drastically more than a class-based system. (Again, I like M&M, one of the most fun d20 things out there, but based on a completely different scale than normal D&D so you can't use a lot of the d20 stuff... though then again, you're playing super heroes in M&M, so you should expect massive over-poweredness.) PS Lina Inverse, just as a note, I know the reference in your name, and Slayers is THE most awesome anime ever ^_^ and Slayers d20 has my favorite magic system of all time.
Lina_Inverse 01-11-06, 04:25 AM	If you've ever played Mutants & Masterminds, you'd know that classless, although it doesn't force diversity, often ends up causing it in spades drastically more than a class-based system. (Again, I like M&M, one of the most fun d20 things out there, but based on a completely different scale than normal D&D so you can't use a lot of the d20 stuff... though then again, you're playing super heroes in M&M, so you should expect massive over-poweredness.) Since when is heroesque things NOT basically class based? Mutants and masterminds would be much simpler(hence better) with a class based system. Remember, KISS. PS Lina Inverse, just as a note, I know the reference in your name, and Slayers is THE most awesome anime ever ^_^ and Slayers d20 has my favorite magic system of all time. I prefer XPH. But it prolly brings up second base. I want to see how they do with advanced magic personally.
starfyredragon 01-11-06, 07:40 PM	Since when is heroesque things NOT basically class based? Mutants and masterminds would be much simpler(hence better) with a class based system. Remember, KISS. Actually, in the mutants and masterminds system, as long as you bother to learn it, it's drastically easier and simpler than a class-based system. In D&D, it takes a good 30 minutes for me to make a fully fleshed out character. In M&M, it may take 3 minutes to make an equally fleshed character. And Mutants and Masterminds (put out by by Green Ronin publishing) is definately a non-class based system. In it, depending on how much power I can pump into it, I can make anything from a modern-day fully-realistic spy to a medevial cleric to things that mimic DragonBallZ to little Susie down the street.... (*thinks to self*... If I made "little susie" and bumped her up in power... I could have her cuteness as a compulsion effect and by her being able to convince super-heroes to do things in the most innocent of ways, magic to manipulate heroes into taking over the world for her...hmm....) I prefer XPH. But it prolly brings up second base. XPH? Never heard of it, what is it? I want to see how they do with advanced magic personally. Actually, it's pretty simple. You have "Common Magic" Which is accessible to all spellcasting classes. Then you can prestige class to gain access the the "real" spells of slayers. (Black Magic, White magic, and Shamanistic Magic, and later Holy and Demon Magic). The cool thing is that as in the series where "That third rate Wizard knows the dragon slave!?!" the same is possible in the game. Magic drains you instead of requiring spell slots, and anyone can learn nearly any magic. So you can learn the most destructive of spells at first level, but chances are the moment you've casted it, the drain will kill you. On the other hand, at higher levels, you can ignore lesser amounts of drain, and you can get a powerful wizard able to cast a low level spell over and over and over again to their hearts content. None of that, "I'm an archmage of the highest order, able to cast "wish" hastened, silently, and without movement, but I can only cast the cantrip "prestidigitation" six times a day."
Lina_Inverse 01-12-06, 02:11 AM	Actually, in the mutants and masterminds system, as long as you bother to learn it, it's drastically easier and simpler than a class-based system. In D&D, it takes a good 30 minutes for me to make a fully fleshed out character. In M&M, it may take 3 minutes to make an equally fleshed character. And Mutants and Masterminds (put out by by Green Ronin publishing) is definately a non-class based system. In it, depending on how much power I can pump into it, I can make anything from a modern-day fully-realistic spy to a medevial cleric to things that mimic DragonBallZ to little Susie down the street.... (*thinks to self*... If I made "little susie" and bumped her up in power... I could have her cuteness as a compulsion effect and by her being able to convince super-heroes to do things in the most innocent of ways, magic to manipulate heroes into taking over the world for her...hmm....) No its not simple, knowing a system as a player and it being simple are very diffrent things. XPH? Never heard of it, what is it? eXpanded Psionics Handbook. Actually, it's pretty simple. You have "Common Magic" Which is accessible to all spellcasting classes. Then you can prestige class to gain access the the "real" spells of slayers. (Black Magic, White magic, and Shamanistic Magic, and later Holy and Demon Magic). The cool thing is that as in the series where "That third rate Wizard knows the dragon slave!?!" the same is possible in the game. Magic drains you instead of requiring spell slots, and anyone can learn nearly any magic. So you can learn the most destructive of spells at first level, but chances are the moment you've casted it, the drain will kill you. On the other hand, at higher levels, you can ignore lesser amounts of drain, and you can get a powerful wizard able to cast a low level spell over and over and over again to their hearts content. None of that, "I'm an archmage of the highest order, able to cast "wish" hastened, silently, and without movement, but I can only cast the cantrip "prestidigitation" six times a day." I know the slayers system. There printing a book called advanced magic useing it for normal D&D.
starfyredragon 01-13-06, 04:42 PM	No its not simple, knowing a system as a player and it being simple are very diffrent things. I guess we differ there, I personally find it simpler in all aspects than D&D, unless you count having to decide between stuff, trying to figure out what you like more. eXpanded Psionics Handbook. Oh, I'd never heard it called that before. I know the slayers system. There printing a book called advanced magic useing it for normal D&D. Oh, okay. Didn't realize, I apologize for misunderstanding.
Lina_Inverse 01-13-06, 05:42 PM	I guess we differ there, I personally find it simpler in all aspects than D&D, unless you count having to decide between stuff, trying to figure out what you like more. It has the basic rules and more complex charecter generation, it also has several diffrent addon systems. Its clearly -not- simpler.
starfyredragon 01-14-06, 03:06 PM	It has the basic rules and more complex charecter generation, it also has several diffrent addon systems. Its clearly -not- simpler. The character generation isn't neccesarrily more complex, just different. Mutants & Masterminds (especially 2nd edition), in my experience, is much more streamlined than D&D. D&D makes a whole bunch of boundaries and seperations that aren't really neccesarry. Not to mention your magic items & tools & cash can greatly affect the strength of your character, without affecting his/her rating on ability to face opposition at all. (Point: A 10th-level naked warrior with no weapon left in the middle of the desert facing off against a red dragon will have the same level in difference as a 10th-level warrior armed to the teeth with magical weaponry, and with plate-mail +5 with protection from fire, and a wish ring that is riding a griffin mount. Will either character gain more experience for defeating the dragon than the other? Not unless the DM is feeling sympathetic. ) In Mutants & Masterminds, a PowerLevel 10 character is a PowerLevel 10 character. You're the same that PowerLevel 10 character over there, except you have mechanized armour that makes you immune to fire, able to strike down your enemies and fly? Oh, you're a PowerLevel 12 character. In Mutants & Masterminds, you really only have 1 base stat. Your number of points. Since everything is bought with them, people of equal level ARE equal, the question is "what are they good at"? The only complexity increase with M&M is that you have more options for each character, plain and simple. (Not to mention the Combat mechanics in M&M are actually simpler in every regard than the D&D ones). Yes, M&M adds on a few extra things as far as complexity goes, but it's removed just as many, and what is left is a lot more streamlined. To give an example, I made 2 character in M&M last night, one roughly the equivelent of a 12th level character, the other roughly the equivilent of a 14th. Those two combined took me less time than it took 1 second-level character in D&D. Both of the M&M ones are much more fleshed out, more detailed, and the gameplay with them is simpler as well. Also, I have ridiculously more play-time with D&D packed away. I've played M&M half as much as D&D (due to group preferences) in the past year since I was introduced to it, and I've been playing D&D for 15 years. M&M was easier to pick up, character generation is more streamlined than D&D even when I have more experience with D&D. The ONLY complaint I have about M&M is that not near as much compatible material has been released for it. Again, a classless system isn't for everyone, and I'm not forcing you to use my variant rules here if you don't want to. That's why they're an option . What they are for is those people (like myself) who want such a thing, and find that such a thing adds to gameplay. If you don't like a point-buy & classless system, than you don't have to use it. That's your perogative. But some of us want these kind of rules, and really like them, and find them easier. Classless & point-buy systems aren't neccesarrily good or bad in comparison to pointless & class-based systems, just less structure and more free reign. Or, to put it in a D&D light, "This isn't a good vs. evil issue, it's a law vs. chaos issue." Your're playing the part of a Justice Paladin while I'm playing the part of a Freedom Paladin.