Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AstralFire 03-08-04, 10:12 PM	Been thinking about this for a while, and I think this would make more sense than it is now, where Wis boosts Will Saves. Charisma is supposedly force of personality (read: Willpower) but it's unrelated to the Will Save (which really never made sense to me.) For Paladins, change it so they get a boost to their saves from Wisdom, which seems more tied to deities.
jagggar 03-08-04, 10:42 PM	I'd say just one or the other for everyone. I have thought about this since I read in 3.5 MM that charisma "Reflects the creature's sense of self. . ." It would make sense for, if not all Will saves, saves made against compulsion and charm effects.
MadBlue 03-09-04, 12:56 AM	This came up in a discussion about Charisma on another board. Someone pointed out that Charm affects how the target views the caster, as opposed to affecting the free will of the target. So, I'd say Charm would still be Wisdom-based (to notice what is really going on). The character can resist being charmed with Charisma if instructed to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, so the Charisma element is already present to reflect sense of self, etc. I agree that Compulsion should be Charisma-based, since, by default, it involves getting a character to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. IMHO, this gives Charisma a well-needed boost without unduly weakening Wisdom. :) MadBlue
Mathuhlu 03-09-04, 12:53 PM	I don't know the correct psychological terms for it, but there are two distinct parts to everyone’s personality. A defensive part that keeps you sane and a forward part that dictates social interaction and how you portray yourself. These are perfectly we represented by Wisdom and Charisma respectively. Just make the comparison with how your physical ability to deal damage is represented by strength and the ability to take damage is represented by constitution.
Roxlimn 03-09-04, 01:29 PM	The variant already exists in the DMG.
AstralFire 03-09-04, 01:59 PM	It does? o_O; I use the SRD for just about everything since I expend most of my money on splatbooks, so I wouldn't know...
MadBlue 03-10-04, 10:50 PM	Originally posted by Mathuhlu I don't know the correct psychological terms for it, but there are two distinct parts to everyone’s personality. A defensive part that keeps you sane and a forward part that dictates social interaction and how you portray yourself. These are perfectly we represented by Wisdom and Charisma respectively. Just make the comparison with how your physical ability to deal damage is represented by strength and the ability to take damage is represented by constitution. That's pretty much the way I look at it too. The six abilities generally represent physical and mental power (Strength/Charisma), aptitude (Dexterity/Intelligence) and resistance (Constitution/Wisdom), although there are a few other factors involved (such as Wisdom representing perception, etc. and Charisma representing self-awareness, etc.). Regarding using Charisma vis a vis Will Saves vs Compulsion, I think of it as using Charisma to resist in the same way you'd resist doing something you wouldn't ordinarily do when under the influence of a Charm spell, except that you're resisting a Compulsion spell directly. Of course it makes just as much sense to keep Will Saves against Compulsion Wisdom based, being that Wisdom is the "mental resistance" ability (and it would be less complicated), but since the Will Save incorporates some Charisma-related elements (self-awareness, self-confidence), it also makes sense to use Charisma for Will Saves that draw upon those elements. Plus, it makes Charisma a more valuable stat without taking away too much from Wisdom. The variant in the DMG suggests basing Will Saves vs Enchantment on Charisma, but that might take too much away from Wisdom. MadBlue
Roxlimn 03-11-04, 02:23 AM	Madblue: The variant in the DMG suggests basing Will Saves vs Enchantment on Charisma, but that might take too much away from Wisdom. I don't know about that. Spot - arguably the most used skill in the game - is already based on Wis.
MadBlue 03-11-04, 06:25 AM	Originally posted by Roxlimn [b]I don't know about that. Spot - arguably the most used skill in the game - is already based on Wis. True. And since many classes don't have Spot (or Sense Motive and Listen) on their list, a high Wisdom is especially beneficial for them. Nobody really wants Wisdom as their "dump stat". For the record, I don't really think it would be that big of a blow to Wisdom to have Will Saves vs Enchantment based on Charisma, as there are plenty of calls for Will Saves outside of Enchantment. It was an argument someone had brought up on another thread, though, so I thought I'd add the caveat as food for thought. MadBlue
Polaris 03-11-04, 11:10 AM	Madblue said: For the record, I don't really think it would be that big of a blow to Wisdom to have Will Saves vs Enchantment based on Charisma, as there are plenty of calls for Will Saves outside of Enchantment. It was an argument someone had brought up on another thread, though, so I thought I'd add the caveat as food for thought. Well, as you already know, I do. In the first place spot and listen aren't worth taking at all unless it is a class skill for you (due to the opposed nature of the skill). Besides, even cross-class skills aren't a sufficient reason to have a good stat. We've been through all that in the 'other' thread. Here's the problem (as was already discussed). There isn't enough game-mechanical octane to support three mental stats. That means if you boost charisma in this way, you wind up with two dump stats (Wisdom and Charisma) rather than one. Why? Because as it is, no one wants to dump wisdom because will saves are too important. However, will saves are not important enough to boost two stats....which is what this varient would demand. In short, WOTC needs to find another way to boost charisma. This just doesn't cut the mustard. -Polaris
Impeesa 03-11-04, 01:10 PM	I've been tossing around this same idea more or less since day one of 3E, but I've never gotten around to trying it out in a game. If anyone ever does, let us know how it goes. Originally posted by MadBlue That's pretty much the way I look at it too. The six abilities generally represent physical and mental power (Strength/Charisma), aptitude (Dexterity/Intelligence) and resistance (Constitution/Wisdom), although there are a few other factors involved (such as Wisdom representing perception, etc. and Charisma representing self-awareness, etc.). That's interesting. I've always looked at it as str:int (intelligence representing brute-force mental processing power), dex:wis (wisdom representing mental reaction time, awareness, and ability to think in unusual ways), and con:chr (charisma representing force of personality, including how well one's "self" holds up to outside influences such as another's social skills, or that chaos ooze stuff). Anyone else have any thoughts? --Impeesa--
Aurotuli 03-12-04, 09:04 PM	Str / Cha = strength of body / mind Dex / Int = agility of body / mind Con / Wis = fortitude of body / mind I'm in the process of trying to create a six - save system. I think it has a good chance of working since little changes and the changes are both easy to understand and easy to implement. Str (endr): Strength is based on muscle mass, and to a degree so is endurance. Running that extra lap, climbing those last few feet, etc. It can even help explain Str being used for melee weapon accuracy: constant training (again a test of endurance) has aided in gaining the skill necessary to strike true. Used mostly for prolonged physical / strenuous activities. Dex (refl): Dexterity and Reflex, same as always.Used for moving out of the way of danger. Con (fort): Constitution and Fortitude, same as always. However, suffocation is considered a form of starvation (for air), and therefore is a Fort check, not an Endr check. Used for combatting ills of the body (poison, disease, starvation, etc). Int: I'm at a loss for Int. I originally considered using it for Snty, but that doesn't seem very realistic after consideration as I can think of highly intelligent insane persons. I think I might leave it blank, since it is the only ability used for skill points (showing the degree to which a person can learn: learn the tricks / tips / etc to be a better climber, a better healer, a better hider, etc). That will be how I balance it with the other stats. Wis: (Prcp / Snty): Since Int has no associated save, I moved Snty over to Wis. Thus Wis is responsible for 2 saves: Perception (used to see through illusions, more common, etc IMCW, also used to see through various other forms of magically assisted mental deceptions, also used when discernment (&/or Common Sense) is needed to be tested) & Sanity (used in a manner similar to Fear / Horror / Maddness saves in Ravenloft, except Fear is battled by Cha, not Wis). Wisdom being the core of two saves may cause some minor balance issues, until one considers that I basically broke will saves into three parts, and Wis got two of them (saves vs sanity, saves vs disbelieving illusions, etc). Thus, it is actually a slight lessening of the original save rather than an extra save associated with the ability. Cha (Will): Charisma is the force and strength of the personality and mind of the character. A mind may lack discernment and reason while still being a force to be reckoned with. To resist compulsions, charms, and all magical affects that seek to alter, supress, etc the will of the mind this ability is used (as a Will save). This is the other third of the original will save. It is used for all instances where the mind has to resist the influence of outward forces. The senses, in this instance are considered separate from the mind (and are dealt with in the Prcp save (Wis)). Incidentally, I'm toying with the idea that understanding magic is either learned (Int) or instinctual (Wis), and that the force applied is entirely based on the Will of the user (Cha). Thus, when determining bonus spells, caster level checks, etc, either Int or Wis is used, but when determining the strength of the magic (DC for saves, getting through SR / MR, etc) Cha is used. It still needs work. Needless to say, I'm tinkering with a lot, so it will be some time before I have a system that is both workable and balanced (at least as much (or little) as the standard system).
MadBlue 03-12-04, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by Polaris Here's the problem (as was already discussed). There isn't enough game-mechanical octane to support three mental stats.I agree with you to a certain extent. As far as classes who don't use Charisma as a stat to base their special abilities on, it doesn't do a whole lot more other than add a bonus to skills, whereas all the other abilities have a purpose other than skills, that's useful for any class. However, that doesn't mean that Charisma is an inappropriate stat for those classes that do base their special abilities on Charisma. It's just that beyond certain skills, you're not going to get much out of Charisma unless you have some ability that allows you to apply it to supernatural uses, whereas the other stats don't have that kind of limitation. Also, considering that eight of the eleven core classes in the PHB cast spells or have some kind of supernatural ability governed by mental stats, that half of the Psionic disciplines are based on the three different mental stats, and that there are many PrCs that have special abilities keyed to different mental stats, I think it can be argued that the game makes sufficient distinction between what the three mental stats represent, that there's plenty of "game-mechanical octane" to support all three, and that two mental stats would be too limiting. That being said, I do think Charisma should be made more useful to every class than it is now (although I think that a lot of that can be handled now by the DM not letting players treat it like a dump stat). That means if you boost charisma in this way, you wind up with two dump stats (Wisdom and Charisma) rather than one. Why? Because as it is, no one wants to dump wisdom because will saves are too important. However, will saves are not important enough to boost two stats....which is what this varient would demand.Then again, there are many other ways to boost Will Saves other than boosting Wisdom, and even in the case of boosting a stat, in a game where characters can purchase magical augmentation, the notion of any stat being a dump stat doesn't carry that much weight. I don't see splitting the Will Save as a problem, especially if it would be appropriate for some of the saves to be based on Charisma. MadBlue
Veton 03-13-04, 12:24 AM	Originally posted by AstralFire It does? o_O; I use the SRD for just about everything since I expend most of my money on splatbooks, so I wouldn't know... Yup. Page 35 of the DMG, a sidebar that talks about it. For example, if you fall down a pit and want to cast a spell, it could be a Reflex save using your Wisdom modifier. Or Intelligence could be used instead of Wisdom against illusions as intelligence represents your abilty to analyze things.
TieraStarr 03-13-04, 09:49 AM	AstralFire: I use the SRD for just about everything since I expend most of my money on splatbooks, so I wouldn't know... I reccommend browsing the DMG and considering purchasing it. In my opinion, only about half on the content of the DMG is included in the SRD, unlike the 90%+ of the PHB and MM. PS: The above is completely off topic.
Lago AM3P 03-13-04, 08:22 PM	Notice that the challenge of a lot of things in the game would vary IMMENSELY if you did that, as the majority of opponents either have really low charisma scores (even animals have average to above average wisdom scores) or have absolutely awesome charisma scores, like celestials and whatnot. So encounters against undead would become laughably easy now while dragons would completely own your stupid ass. If you don't have a problem with wizards and clerics owning everything in the game with spells that target will saves, I guess that's fine.