Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legendarius 02-25-06, 03:54 PM	One of the areas of the rules I don't particularly care for is the energy draining rules. I certainly find them a lot nicer in the 3.0 and 3.5 era than in past editions but I still hate the idea of an attack "erasing" your experience, skills (where did I last allocate points again? I forgot how to sail?), feats (which one goes?), etc. While not directly related in the rules, I also dislike the way XP costs work for spell casting, item creation, etc. You're telling me the 20th level wizard with just enough XP to reach that level can't create a wand that the 10th level wizard who is 1 XP shy of 11th level could easily make because he has a pool of available XP? Has anyone created an alternate to this situation? I was thinking of creating an experience pool that mirrors your experience point total with that total being the max XP you have at your disposal. So for example a PC who just reached level 3 has 3000 XP as his max XP and his pool starts at the same value. If he casts a spell that has an XP component or otherwise uses XP in item creation for example his pool is reduced. Once his pool reaches zero then he can no longer use XP to "power" effects. XP in the pool is restored by rest like hit points are only say at the rate of about 100 XP per day per level. So even a 20th level wizard would only gain 2000 XP per day to their pool not to exceed the maximum. Energy drain would work as follows in this system. If the negative level gained becomes permanent because of a failed fortitude saving throw, the PC loses an amount of XP from the pool equal to half the delta between their current level and the next level below. They would also maintain the negative modifier on all of the checks. A negative pool is also created by the loss for the same amount. Restored XP from rest is used to reduce negative pool before it goes back to restoring the normal XP pool. A spell effect that removes a negative level removes the penalty and reduces the negative pool by half the delta between current level and the next level below. If the standard pool is reduced in this fashion below zero, it just becomes negative and takes longer to restore to the max value again. Receiving negative levels greater than current level still drops you dead. Example 1: 3rd level PC has pool of 3000 XP to use. Casts a spell that has a 50 XP cost. New Pool level is now 2950 XP. Gets a negative level from an undead. Fails save making the loss permanent. Current pool is now at 2950-(3000-1000)/2 = 1950 and the PC has a negative pool of 1000 points. Being at 3rd level that means it will take over three days to remove the negative pool and then over six days to get back to max assuming the pool isn't tapped again before then. In the meantime, the PC has a negative penalty and is considered 2nd level for level based effects, such as spell durations. Example 2: Same as above except the PC had already used their XP pool to power spells and item creation and was down to only 500 XP in their pool when they are attacked. 500-(3000-1000)/2 = -500 for the current pool with a negative pool of 1000 points. Thus it takes over three days to remove the negative pool and then another eleven to get back to max. thoughts? L
Phoenix Knight 02-25-06, 04:16 PM	That's interesting. I also never really liked XP drain. In my current campaign, I handled it by saying that negative levels become permanent negative levels, but never result in actual level loss. Though I actually tweaked several monsters that normal deal negative levels to deal ability damage instead, anyway, because that made more sense to me. I had no real way to handle XP costs for spells and item creation, though. Your way might work. It also gives me the idea that you could have a certain number of craft points each level (I think the Artificer has something like this). Not sure how this would work with XP costs for spells (which seem like a bad way to balance spells, but are the most effective way I can think of in the case certain killer spells like wish).
Mist of Shadows 02-25-06, 04:20 PM	I like the idea of some other system for stuff then spending exp. I mean I will admit right now it's not hard getting exp. Wander into a dark forest and hunt monsters like any good pc. But I dislike the idea for much the reasons you said. The 20th level wizard having issues where the lower level char doesn't. The problem is this, I have an exp pool WWEEEEEEE cool. I spend a day to scribe a wish scroll. So even a 20th level wizard would only gain 2000 XP per day to their pool not to exceed the maximum. Alright I'm down 5000 exp I wait a day scribe another down 8000 (1000-2000 for the day of recharge. Wait another day and scribe another. (8000 + 5000 -2000 = 11,000 exp down. Still okay for my crafting wait a day scribe another. 14000 spent. one more day for a total of 17,000 so in 5 days I have five wish scrolls. 17,000 /2000 = in 8. 5 days so just over a week my craft exp pool is back up to full. (under your system.) I burn the five scrolls one right after another to increase my int. Put it this way in 13.5 days I can put a 5 to any one stat. If you look at the draconomician there is an item in there that gives a +5 inherient bonus to a skill (draco mysterie) So if the dm allows. In 81 days I have buffed up every stat I have then I start on my skills and other things I can increase with wish. This isn't nessicarily a bad thing, but it is a product of your system. Another way to look at it is this. 5 * 5000 * 6 (stats) = 150,000 So you could blow through your exp to increase yourself a large amount then do normal adventuring, with gaining exp to make anything you need while your pool comes back. You charge the people you increase say half what a book that increases stats would cost. They are your friends after all. You make a lot of money. In other words people would abuse it. Though if you want a world like that :) it's another way to go. I sort of like the idea. I'm just offering some hopefully constructive critisim.
Mist of Shadows 02-25-06, 04:28 PM	Ah the problem with typing long posts is people beat you to posting at points. Phoenix Knight I like your idea of changing monsters to deal ability damage rather then memory damage (ie exp loss.) I use a system where spell casters can canabalise exp from magical items to make other ones. It works pretty well for me. There is also an ability that lets them take the cost from some items and use all of the gold and exp to make something else related or slightly related. It's used in the game to power up family swords and things rather then just let them get tossed for a copper weapon because the copper weapon deals more damage cause it's in the next town, opps sorry flash backs to computer games. But yeah something could be done with the exp stuff, not sure what though. I like the idea of a spell to fuel making magic items by draining the life force from fighters, monsters and npcs to pay for it. They want that flashy new +5 sword they should pay for it.
RaspK FOG 02-25-06, 04:30 PM	The XP pool idea is cool when it comes to magic item creation and spells, though you have to wonder how this mechanic can be made to work... Maybe you have an amount of available XP to spend equal to your total? One could also rework the XP costs of the various activities.
Legendarius 02-25-06, 08:34 PM	Thank you, I do indeed appreciate the constructive criticism. The chance for the abuse of the system like you mention is a concern of mine. My main problem with the current mechanics are it can make it so a high level character isn't able to do something a low level character can. Another problem in my opinion is this. If you have a PC who wants to focus on item creation as his or her thing, doing so costs experience points. Does it cost the fighter to swing his sword? No, in fact he'll be gaining experience in the process. I agree there needs to be a limit to how powerful an item or spell a caster can create at a given level and there needs to be a limit as to how often they can do so but such things should have the potential to earn experience in my opinion more so than just cost. Making a new item or spell shouldn't be free or easy but it likewise shouldn't prevent advancement. L
Phoenix Knight 02-25-06, 11:52 PM	You could consider adding rules that making an item requires special components that must be adventured for (in addition to more money), and eliminate the xp component. Want to make a flaming sword? You need the blood of a salamander king, given willingly. Sounds like a quest! Mist of Shadows pointed out a serious danger of abuse I hadn't really thought about. A recharging pool of XP could give balance issues. I think a per level number of points sounds more balanced. As an aside, a fighter swinging his sword is not quite analogous to a wizard making a permanent magic item, or, even, frankly, casting a spell, because of power and versatility of the spellcasting. No matter how many times the fighter swings the sword, it will not make him fly, or invisible, or able to hit twenty foes at once, or teleport, unless some wizard did that to the sword (which takes the power out of the fighter's hands, once again). Not to mention, to swing his sword, the fighter has to get up in the dragon's face and risk his life, and, of course, actually roll well. To scribe a scroll, the wizard just sits on his butt and drinks coco, while catching with his familiar, Scruffy.
Lina_Inverse 02-26-06, 03:55 AM	Level is a representation of the strengh of your charecters soul, as well as an acumulation of experience and ability. You become worse at sailing because a portion of your very being has been ripped out of you. This is why items cost EXP, because your imbueing some of your essense into there creation. This is why negative energy, the stuff of annilation drains your levels. This is why you lose a level when you die, part of you is gone forever in the trip between death and back. Oh as for previous editions. The vampire hits you, you lose 2 levels, no save no nothing. There gone permanetly.
Mist of Shadows 02-26-06, 06:33 PM	I don't know about you but I think I could make a fighter that could hit twenty people in a round. But that isn't the point. As for the whole big wizard not being able to do something the little wizard can. I simply explain it in game as the character realizing that they have just grasped a new understanding of their craft so making a magical item right now would be bad and so they don't do it. As for a craft pool well I can see doing something with that. Mist's Idea use at own risk. Feat Craft pool reserve X (maybe x times level, maybe x being 100) so at level twenty you have a craft pool of 2000 exp) maybe per feat. No spend a feat on exp you say? Well not so much really. The feat would just give you a craft pool that you fill by canabalizing other magical items. So you find a few +1 swords that you don't need you drain them of magic and it fills up your craft pool by the exp in the item. It's not a free gift you could have sold the swords you could have enchanted them more or something. So there is balance there. But a craft pool would allow a wizard to store up some exp by using the soul energy of past casters. I think it's pretty balanced because the sword would be slag when your done with it. You get the exp out of it and go on to make other things. The craft pool even if used to fuel a wish is still bought and paid for in the blood of other magic items. (Magical sword "Please please don't hurt me" Wizard "you outlived your used" Magical item as it's melting "AHHHHHHH" Wizard evil laughter.") So it shouldn't be unblancing being that you aren't getting the gold piece cost back. Thoughts on this other idea?
Phoenix Knight 02-26-06, 08:02 PM	(Magical sword "Please please don't hurt me" Wizard "you outlived your used" Magical item as it's melting "AHHHHHHH" Wizard evil laughter.") My thoughts on that...Um...Do you think about this stuff a lot? Anyway, the idea looks pretty good. I assume you mean something like you gain that much starting XP for Craft Magic Arms and Armor, but you could gain extra craft XP by taking, say, Craft Wonderous Item. If all you get is the XP out of the magic item, then it shouldn't be unbalancing, because the 2300gp for the weapon is probably worth more than the couple of XP you get from a weapon that cheap.
Mist of Shadows 02-27-06, 01:34 AM	Do I think about this type of thing a lot well maybe. :) One of the campaigns I'm in the fighter has an "Intelligent" singing sword that has no ranks in sing and sounds like a drunk dwarf. (this is because the dm that sings parts of the song has no musical skill so yeah maybe just a touch. Anyways yes I think that you should get some exp for each crafting feat taken as well. Sort of your starting exp to play around with. And yeah selling the weapons is probably better then consuming them for exp but hey not my choice really. That's up to the players to see if it's worth it.
Stanwick 02-27-06, 11:33 PM	Umm, so you want to take the key powers of the Artificer and give them to a Wizard? For the cost of a feat!?:blink: I would advise against that. If you want to have a character that concentrates on crafting items, complete with the crafting pool and the ability to scavange crafting xp from extra magic items then play an Artificer. Doing what you propose will make high level Wizards even more rediculously(sp?) powerful than they already are. You might be able to look at the Artificer base class and boil it down to a decent balanced 10 or 5 level Prc though. :lightbulb ... now that i think about it that might be the way to go here. As far as undead and level/xp draining effects go, i also dislike the mechanic. I usually end up tweeking the critters to do ability damage as others have mentioned (usually con).:plotting: All that being said,this is what works for me and my group and from that expierience. What works (or dosnt work) for us may not work (or may) for you and your group. All i can do is throw out the suggestions/comments and hope to be constructive.:P Game Long, Game Happy Stanwick:pint: