Vitality and Wound Points: Critical Hits? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Vitality and Wound Points: Critical Hits? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Laszlo Koller
10-23-05, 07:35 PM I have a question regarding critical hits for the "Vitality and Wound Points" variant. From the Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040206a&page=3) excerpt (available on the Wizards website), we can read the following about critical hits:

Critical Hits

A critical hit deals the same amount of damage as a normal hit, but that damage is deducted from wound points rather than from vitality points. Critical hits do not deal extra damage; for that reason, no weapon in this system has a damage multiplier for its critical hits.

Any critical hit automatically overcomes a creature's damage reduction, regardless of whether the attack could normally do so.

While this text does mention overcoming damage reduction, it makes no mention of being able to critically hit a creature that is not subject to critical hits, like a construct or an undead. However, later in that same excerpt, we can read the following [emphasis mine]:

Damage Reduction

Damage reduction functions normally, reducing damage dealt by attacks. However, any critical hit automatically overcomes a creature's damage reduction, regardless of whether the attack could normally do so. For example, a critical hit against a skeleton (DR 5/bludgeoning) overcomes the creature's damage reduction even if it was hit with a weapon that does not deal bludgeoning damage.

Knowing that a skeleton is undead--and thus, not subject to critical hits--how can a critical hit be performed in it? Unless, of course, that while using the VP/WP variant, critical hits apply to all creatures. Is this supposition true?

I look forward to your responses. Thank you.
TJWitz
10-23-05, 08:27 PM Creatures without Constitution Scores

Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have Constitution scores. If a creature has no Constitution score, it has no vitality points. Instead, it has wound points equal to the number of vitality points it would have based on its HD and type. Such creatures are never fatigued or stunned by wound damage.

In the VP/WP system, critical hits function in two regards now, instead of the old crits which have 1 function (extra multiplied damage):

1) damage is applied directly to wound points (no different than a non-crit hit for undead, constructs, and other no-CON monsters)

2) damage ignores any DR

----

Based on the above, I believe the intent is for all creatures to be vulnerable to critical hits, especially considering the example you provided specifically uses undead.

Why it wasn't explicitly stated... :confused:
Jerks
10-24-05, 09:08 AM I caught that too when I read through the rules. I honestly think that using the skeleton as an example was just a mistake on the part of the writer and editor, instead of inferring that undead are now crit'able. The fact that it isn't referenced anywhere else kinda confirms this to me.

Of course, individual opinions and mileage may vary.
Temrek
10-25-05, 02:22 AM IIRC, creatures immune to critical hits have wounds equal to the hitpoints they would have in the normal system but they have no vitality at all.
Millennium
10-25-05, 09:25 AM This is one of those areas where they really needed more explanation. You can essentially take this one of three ways:

1) Creatures which were immune to critical hits are still immune to critical hits, and whoever write that example just chose a poor example.

2) Creatures which were immune to critical hits now lose their damage reduction on a critical hit, but the damage is not applied directly to Wounds unless the creature has no Vitality.

3) Creatures which were immune to critical hits aren't anymore.

I'm not exactly sure which way this is supposed to go. If anyone here has the Star Wars d20 guide, what does that say? Vitality/Wounds was invented for that system, so I'd tend to go with whatever it says.
DigitalMage
10-25-05, 10:57 AM I'm not exactly sure which way this is supposed to go. If anyone here has the Star Wars d20 guide, what does that say? Vitality/Wounds was invented for that system, so I'd tend to go with whatever it says.
I wouldn't take what Star Wars D20 says on the matter to apply here as there are distinct differences with how the two implementations of Wounds & Vitality work.

For example in Star Wars D20 Armour DR only applies when doing Wound damage, any time damage is applied to Vitality armour DR has no effect (as Vitality indicates a near miss or whatever and so the armour wouldn't come into play).

In Star Wars there is still the rule of some Creatures being Immune to Critcial Hits though, I am pretty sure.
FlameLover
10-25-05, 05:39 PM I'd make it that it ignores DR on ANYONE but only go stright to wounds if they arn't immune to critical hits. If you make everyone critable you allow the Rogue SA and balance is found in that they have to take a back seet in such encounters.
Carmath The Pure
10-25-05, 07:17 PM I caught that too when I read through the rules. I honestly think that using the skeleton as an example was just a mistake on the part of the writer and editor, instead of inferring that undead are now crit'able. The fact that it isn't referenced anywhere else kinda confirms this to me.

Of course, individual opinions and mileage may vary.
That's how I see it too. They were discussing DR, so picked a monster with DR; the fact that it was undead (and thus immune to crits) slipped past them. Use the example as an explanation of how to adjudicate DR in the VP/WP system and nothing more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laszlo Koller 10-23-05, 07:35 PM	I have a question regarding critical hits for the "Vitality and Wound Points" variant. From the Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040206a&page=3) excerpt (available on the Wizards website), we can read the following about critical hits: Critical Hits A critical hit deals the same amount of damage as a normal hit, but that damage is deducted from wound points rather than from vitality points. Critical hits do not deal extra damage; for that reason, no weapon in this system has a damage multiplier for its critical hits. Any critical hit automatically overcomes a creature's damage reduction, regardless of whether the attack could normally do so. While this text does mention overcoming damage reduction, it makes no mention of being able to critically hit a creature that is not subject to critical hits, like a construct or an undead. However, later in that same excerpt, we can read the following [emphasis mine]: Damage Reduction Damage reduction functions normally, reducing damage dealt by attacks. However, any critical hit automatically overcomes a creature's damage reduction, regardless of whether the attack could normally do so. For example, a critical hit against a skeleton (DR 5/bludgeoning) overcomes the creature's damage reduction even if it was hit with a weapon that does not deal bludgeoning damage. Knowing that a skeleton is undead--and thus, not subject to critical hits--how can a critical hit be performed in it? Unless, of course, that while using the VP/WP variant, critical hits apply to all creatures. Is this supposition true? I look forward to your responses. Thank you.
TJWitz 10-23-05, 08:27 PM	Creatures without Constitution Scores Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have Constitution scores. If a creature has no Constitution score, it has no vitality points. Instead, it has wound points equal to the number of vitality points it would have based on its HD and type. Such creatures are never fatigued or stunned by wound damage. In the VP/WP system, critical hits function in two regards now, instead of the old crits which have 1 function (extra multiplied damage): 1) damage is applied directly to wound points (no different than a non-crit hit for undead, constructs, and other no-CON monsters) 2) damage ignores any DR ---- Based on the above, I believe the intent is for all creatures to be vulnerable to critical hits, especially considering the example you provided specifically uses undead. Why it wasn't explicitly stated... :confused:
Jerks 10-24-05, 09:08 AM	I caught that too when I read through the rules. I honestly think that using the skeleton as an example was just a mistake on the part of the writer and editor, instead of inferring that undead are now crit'able. The fact that it isn't referenced anywhere else kinda confirms this to me. Of course, individual opinions and mileage may vary.
Temrek 10-25-05, 02:22 AM	IIRC, creatures immune to critical hits have wounds equal to the hitpoints they would have in the normal system but they have no vitality at all.
Millennium 10-25-05, 09:25 AM	This is one of those areas where they really needed more explanation. You can essentially take this one of three ways: 1) Creatures which were immune to critical hits are still immune to critical hits, and whoever write that example just chose a poor example. 2) Creatures which were immune to critical hits now lose their damage reduction on a critical hit, but the damage is not applied directly to Wounds unless the creature has no Vitality. 3) Creatures which were immune to critical hits aren't anymore. I'm not exactly sure which way this is supposed to go. If anyone here has the Star Wars d20 guide, what does that say? Vitality/Wounds was invented for that system, so I'd tend to go with whatever it says.
DigitalMage 10-25-05, 10:57 AM	I'm not exactly sure which way this is supposed to go. If anyone here has the Star Wars d20 guide, what does that say? Vitality/Wounds was invented for that system, so I'd tend to go with whatever it says. I wouldn't take what Star Wars D20 says on the matter to apply here as there are distinct differences with how the two implementations of Wounds & Vitality work. For example in Star Wars D20 Armour DR only applies when doing Wound damage, any time damage is applied to Vitality armour DR has no effect (as Vitality indicates a near miss or whatever and so the armour wouldn't come into play). In Star Wars there is still the rule of some Creatures being Immune to Critcial Hits though, I am pretty sure.
FlameLover 10-25-05, 05:39 PM	I'd make it that it ignores DR on ANYONE but only go stright to wounds if they arn't immune to critical hits. If you make everyone critable you allow the Rogue SA and balance is found in that they have to take a back seet in such encounters.
Carmath The Pure 10-25-05, 07:17 PM	I caught that too when I read through the rules. I honestly think that using the skeleton as an example was just a mistake on the part of the writer and editor, instead of inferring that undead are now crit'able. The fact that it isn't referenced anywhere else kinda confirms this to me. Of course, individual opinions and mileage may vary. That's how I see it too. They were discussing DR, so picked a monster with DR; the fact that it was undead (and thus immune to crits) slipped past them. Use the example as an explanation of how to adjudicate DR in the VP/WP system and nothing more.