Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Czar of Jesters 03-09-05, 09:36 PM	I'm sure many of you have seen the vitality/woudn point variant in Unearthed Arcana or star wars d20. I myself love the system, however it bugs me that enough vitality points let you shrug off an infinate number of damage from one blow. Its because of this that i came up with an aditional mechanic, the defense class or DC. Its a single number that represents how much damage a charachter can shrug off from a single source. For any charachter thats meant to be in melee this number will be much higher than any normal oponent will deal in one blow, for mages it will probably have them take a few wounds while ducking in and out of melee. Its main purpose, however, is to prevent tougher charachters from completely shrugging off explosions, long falls, and powerfull hits from large oponents. This DC is equal to: maximum HD roll+level+AC-10(to remove the base 10 AC most charachters recieve). So a first level fighter with 15 AC has a DC of 16 (10[max HD]+1[level]+5[AC-10]). Thoughts?
Harlequin_666 03-09-05, 09:40 PM	I was thinking of using that system myself, I even read it 3 or 4 times to really soak it in. I'm just not a fan of going from 80 to 0 hitpoints...your down...your bleeding...10 rounds have passed...your dead :) The Vitality/Wound one had a bit of realism to me.
Ranger REG 03-10-05, 03:46 AM	Thoughts? Have you experimented with Improved Critical feat under VP/WP? Power Attack?
jnrhayz 03-10-05, 10:25 AM	The only real problem I see with this, is for non combat pcs, or pcs that use little armor. For example: 20th level wizard - Ring of protection +5, Bracers +8, Amulet of Natural +5 Your formula is unclear as to whether dex is added. Being flat-footed would then also come into consideration. Also, I assume the remaining damage applies to Wound Points =42 (62 points is instant death for average con wizard) So one good hit from a 20CR creature could end this character. Bye bye 20th level wizard. I don't like the idea of one hit one kill at such high levels. I guess I would just like to see a little more high level development before I would use this, but I do like the idea.
Czar of Jesters 03-10-05, 07:10 PM	hrm, perhaps you could gain double your level instead of just your level
Robbo 03-12-05, 07:07 AM	There is another way of looking at this - VP are purely a combat ability. If an orc swings his axe at you, and is on target so doing damage to VP, then the loss of your VP is effectively a reduction in the amount of further combat you can undertake before your guard is down and the orc can hit you (for WP damage) at will. In other words you have successfully defended yourself from an on target blow, by parrying etc. A giant swinging a gargantuan club at you is another level of difficulty altogether. Trying to deflect the blow with a weapon in hand, or your shield, is pretty pointless if you are a human, even 20th level, unless your strength has been exceptionally boosted somehow. I would interpret a loss of VP in such circumstances as the character expending energy to avoid the blow altogether. If he cannot dodge and weave, then it is no different from being subject to a trap that you are not aware of - if the blow is on target it WILL deal massive damage. 20th level characters might attempt to survive such circumstances by preparing themselves with magical protections, take skills and feats that boost dexterity, combat tumbling, reactions, and savings throws, surround themselves with followers, get the first blow in and make it count (initiative and critical enhancements) etc. Just some thoughts!
Czar of Jesters 03-12-05, 05:24 PM	yes, thats my interpretation of the system, the idea of the DC is so that, especialy things like giant clubs will deal some actual damage to the PC, and not just be dodged or paried completely.
Czar of Jesters 03-16-05, 02:39 PM	another posible variant, remove the VP completely, and instead have something like a HD roll that works as damage reduction for each attack, it could either be a roll of HD+con mod+one or two times level, or you could work some system where you have a few bonus die rolls per day based on level, thoughts?
Larathiel 03-17-05, 07:32 PM	I think d20 Modern has a similar system whereby if you are hit by an attack that deals over a certain amount then You have to make a Fort save or die. I *thought* the rule was re-printed within UA actually and said "don't mix with Wound Points", but I could be wrong...
Czar of Jesters 03-18-05, 12:34 AM	Do you mean the death by massive damage rule, beacuse thats in the DMG. But thats not quite the point of the DC, its mainly there so a pc might take a glancing blow that deals some damage, or take a minor wound form a large fall, something along those lines.
Keenath 03-18-05, 09:58 AM	I myself love the system, however it bugs me that enough vitality points let you shrug off an infinate number of damage from one blow.I'm not sure what you mean by "infinite". You still only shrug off as much as your VP, right? The thing is, VP isn't always the same thing. As some people mentioned, it represents parrying, blocking, rolling, dodging, minor wounds like scratches and nicks, and even hero-wounds (you know -- the kind that bleeds a lot and makes him clutch it for a minute. It keeps the hero from doing anything more strenuous than martial arts, leaping chasms, hanging from a truck, etc.) If I understand your post, you simply want to put in a limit of the number of VP you can lose from any given attack, with the remainder going to wounds? That's going to make combat FAR more deadly. Even if you're using the VP style where crits don't deal extra damage, but go straight to wounds, you're talking about making it possible to strike down a high level character with a lucky hit. That seems counter to the whole point of VP. The VP/WP system is meant to make combat more cinematic, where you don't need healing after every battle because you're not "really" taking injuries until you run out of VP, and a few points of wound is actually something to be concerned about. I would also mention that this change will make casters more deadly than they already are. Magic tends to produce effects that roll lots of dice at the same time, a few times per day, while a fighter deals one or two dice several times per turn and all day long. If the limit is, say, 20 points for my 5th level character, a fighter with a greatsword is probably not going to make that without power attack or a crit. Meanwhile, a caster with fireball can easily hit that limit for the entire party at a single blow by rolling SLIGHTLY over average damage...
Czar of Jesters 03-18-05, 10:13 AM	I understand that VP represents an ability to avoid actual damage through dodges and parys, and I realize that it makes combat more deadly, but especialy the fireball part was kindof the point. It takes an incredible amount of skill/luck/whatever to get caught in a massive burst of fire and not actualy get hurt. So big damaging spells like fireball, or large falls, are likey to do some wound point damage even if the players are at full strength. At the same time, however, casters have very very low DC's, because of thier small HD and generaly low AC, making a typical greatsword slinger able to give em a few wounds before that lucky crit finishes them off. Yes its not completely balanced, and yes it makes combat a bit more deadly, but it makes low HD charachters more vulnerable in melee, and very very large amounts of damage are likely to actualy wound the PC's a bit; its a little dash of realism that i like.
Robbo 03-24-05, 09:39 PM	I can see the problem with fireballs and the like, but I deal with it by redefining what that kind of "energy" effect does. I don't like the idea that a fireball has relatively less effect to a 20th level fighter than a 1st level commoner. Everything else being equal, they both get burned somewhat, depending upon the die rolls. I reduce VP but also 1WP per 3.5 points of damage rolled. (That is a little awkward, but I prefer to have some variability rather than just 1WP per die for example.) To my mind, VP are only about relative combat ability, I don't want the same fireball to kill a mage (only xd4 VP) and leave a fighter (xd10 VP) with just singed hair if they both fail their saves.
Czar of Jesters 04-10-05, 01:24 PM	I agree with you, but only to a point. This is the point of the DC, and it can be assumed that a level 20 charachter will be able to shield himself from the blast much better then a level 1 charachter. I have no problems with a level 20 anything shrugging off a fireball from a low level mage, they can protect themselves, but a higher level fireball is going to do some damage regardless.
PurdueDave 04-10-05, 02:17 PM	I've played under a vitality point system for a futuristic campaign. IMO, it only fits in systems where characters aren't prohibited from wearing armor as a class-limiting feature.
Czar of Jesters 04-11-05, 11:04 PM	Um, i fail to see your reasoning on this one, the VP/WP system has no gambreaking, either fluff or stat wise, on systems with armor limitations that i can see
SaddestPleasure 04-12-05, 08:31 AM	So basically you want a massive damage threshold under the VP/WP system, where damage over the threshold doesn't kill you but goes straight to wound points. It's a decent idea and if you want to do it that way you should look at the massive damage threshold variants. You could even throw in a save somewhere, like, damage over the massive damage threshold is halved on a successful Fort save (I wouldn't call it 'DC' because that already exists as an abbreviation in the game, and having two 'DC's would be confusing). There's another option though. It's close to Robbo's idea. You could have a 'hero damage threshold' (perhaps Charisma + highest base hit die type + HD, or something else) and damage above that begins 'leaking' through to wound points at the rate of 1 wound point for every 2 points of damage. So a level 6 fighter with a 10 Charisma would have a 'hero damage threshold' of 10+10+6, or 26. If he took 30 points of damage from a single attack, the 4 points of damage above his threshold 'leak through' for 2 points of wound damage. The exact formula for calculating the 'hero damage threshold' is something just off the top of the head. Finessing it probably requires more thought than I'm prepared to give right now. :p The rate at which damage leaks through to wound points could also be adjusted to your liking. I do think the hero damage threshold should at least take level into account. YMMV. Cheers, SaddestPleasure
Wrathamon 04-12-05, 06:32 PM	I ran a campaign using a Toughness score (Massive Damage Threshold) and a Hitpoint/Wound system... pretty much vitality/wounds. Every character had a Toughness rating based on Level and other modifiers. If damage exceeded the rating, than they had to make a Damage save to avoid wound damage. Armor had a Damage Resistance that increased your Damage Save. It worked when I played mid level games to play test, but fell apart at low levels and slowed down combat and was confusing for newbs who had a hard time grasping the core system. in the end it just didnt seem worth the effort
LordofIllusions 04-14-05, 10:39 AM	I don't like using the vitality/wound point variant due to the fact that it makes the game seem like another version of that corny Star Wars Role Playing Game. ~~~
Wrathamon 04-14-05, 01:38 PM	I don't like using the vitality/wound point variant due to the fact that it makes the game seem like another version of that corny Star Wars Role Playing Game. cause that is a good reason not to use a game play mechanic. :rolleyes:
Monster_Jam 04-14-05, 08:35 PM	I love the Star Wars universe and anything Star Wars. I like the d20 system 3.5 version of D&D. I don't like the d20 system for Star Wars. I do like Star Wars' VP/WP system. I don't like using the VP/WP system for D&D; at least not yet. I don't think UA covers all of the bases so to speak to fully convert a game heavily dependant on "extra dice", "critical multipliers", and other effects creatures or spells would have in a game with this option. That said, if it were incorporated fully, and play tested (say, a 4.0 D&D version), I would embrace it.
LordofIllusions 04-15-05, 08:32 AM	cause that is a good reason not to use a game play mechanic. :rolleyes: Sure is, especially when the decision is being made for my game at my gaming table alone and has nothing to do with what goes on at your gaming table. ;) Leave it at that. Also, to other posters, there is no 4.0. Moderators have already said this numerous times. Multiple threads concerning the mythical 4.0(constantly discussed by the handful of new edition mongers) have been locked due to the fact that they are nothing but flamewars waiting to happen, and spam. Why some people stubbornly refuse to listen, or adhere when the mods say there is no 4.0 ? I don't know. Maybe they have not matured enough yet to know what "No" means ? ~~~
Steel Dragon 04-16-05, 12:02 PM	Um, i fail to see your reasoning on this one, the VP/WP system has no gambreaking, either fluff or stat wise, on systems with armor limitations that i can see Actually - there is a huge problem in your view of VP/WP system with D&D. You're saying that VP is actually the character's ability to dodge/parry/etc. Two words, and a simple Arcane Spell: Magic Missile This spell doesn't miss. If a spell has a 0% miss - according to theory of a person "physically taking damage," wouldn't this mean that Magic Missile should go straight to wounds? Unless you're VP is a more "Supernatural Toughness" and not a expendature of energy - spells which don't miss or spells which have a range of Touch (since you're physically touching them) could become far more problamatic, depending on how you look at the system. (This problem occurs in SW:RPG too. Does Force Choke deal VP or WP damage? You're crushing Organs...so why would it deal VP beyond the sake of balance?)
Czar of Jesters 04-16-05, 08:47 PM	You have a good point, however it dosnt specificly state what the magic missles DO when they connect. For the purposes of the HP/VP system they could be either an energy draining type thing, making you more tired, or they could cause light bruses etc which arnt enough to be considered wound point damage, but enough to hamper you in combat.