Vitality/Wound points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Vitality/Wound points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dantano
01-10-07, 08:10 PM I've played star wars d20 and I really liked it, and I was excited to discover the variant in unearthed arcana. My question is, how do you deal with magic? Some spells like magic missile automatically connect, so what then? I can see how you can play it off as a vitality damage instead of wound points, but melf's acid arrow would HAVE to deal wound points. The campaign I'm using this for is going to be low magic so this may tip the scales and reballance the magic using classes.

For people that have used it, how have youd one it, and how did it effect the game?
IronMouse
01-11-07, 04:59 AM Spell damage is usually VP damage. The only exception are spells that require an attack roll, usually touch attacks. They can crit as usual and then deal WP damage. That's all.

However, I use a house rule that if you roll a natural 1 on a saving throw against a spell or other effect (breath weapons etc.) that doesn't require an attack roll, and you "confirm" the roll (roll the save again, if you fail, it's confirmed) then the spell/effect deals WP damage instead. This can quickly lead to insta-kills, especially at higher levels, so be careful to use that.
Dantano
01-13-07, 02:48 PM What about area effects like fireball? Is that when you're saying you use the save fail rule for criticals?
Xeviat-DM
01-13-07, 03:13 PM Spells need critical failures and critical successes, in my opinion. This would require some changes with several mechanics, but I think it could be rewarding:

Critical Spells[list]
20 = Critical Success; you suffer no effect.
Success < 20 = Success; generally suffer half or partial effect.
Failure > 1 = Failure; suffer full effect.
1 = Critical Failure; you suffer an expanded effect.

For damaging spells, the expanded effect should be 1 WP damage per die of VP damage; anything more would get rediculous, as this would turn 4th level or higher evocation spells to almost instant kill spells past 11th level.

Then, evasion now allows you to treat successes as critical successes, and improved evasion allows you to treat failures as successes.

This would require creating a simple solution, such as double durration or 1 WP per damage die, or it would requie creating custom Critical Failures for all spells.
Dantano
01-13-07, 03:31 PM hmm, I really like the 1 WP per damage die for critical attacks/critical fails. I really like this system but I feel like the way its presented leaves so many questions.

I'm going to run a low magic campaign so I'm still weighing options with magic to try and ballance it. I'm worried about not giving enough insentive to be a casting class if I keep limitting them.
IronMouse
01-13-07, 04:58 PM What about area effects like fireball? Is that when you're saying you use the save fail rule for criticals?
Exactly. If you get hit by a fireball, you roll your save. If you succeed, half damage to VP, normally. If you fail, full damage to VP. If you fail on natural 1, the spell "threatens a crit", so roll again. Success means full damage to VP, as above. Fail means damage goes to WPs.
Either full, which is very lethal, or half (despite the failed save). Half is still quite dangerous.
Ra-Tiel
01-14-07, 07:43 AM Exactly. If you get hit by a fireball, you roll your save. If you succeed, half damage to VP, normally. If you fail, full damage to VP. If you fail on natural 1, the spell "threatens a crit", so roll again. Success means full damage to VP, as above. Fail means damage goes to WPs.
Either full, which is very lethal, or half (despite the failed save). Half is still quite dangerous.

And what about spells that hit automatically, like magic missile or pretty much any other Target spell? What about spells that already have a different effect depending on the save, like disintegrate? What about spells that don't deal HP damage normally, like avasculate?

You either have to look at almost any damaging spell in existance and adjust its effect, or you create mechanical irregularities because spell A works this way and spell B works a different way.

If you design the game system from ground up to include layered effects for saving throws/spells it's ok, but jury-rigging that onto DnD/d20 is prone to problems. Also, the suggested mechanic of spells "threatening" even more increases chance of PC fatality, especially if the spell targets a character's weak save and failure is highly probable to begin with.

My suggestion would be to use VP/WP as written: all damage goes to VP first, and bleeds over to WP if VP are depleted (although this opens up a completely different can of worms :shifty: ). Critical hits, and only critical hits, bypass VP and go directly to WP. Anything else is a big nono imho.
IronMouse
01-14-07, 09:33 AM And what about spells that hit automatically, like magic missile or pretty much any other Target spell? What about spells that already have a different effect depending on the save, like disintegrate? What about spells that don't deal HP damage normally, like avasculate?
Spells that don't allow a saving throw (and don't require an attack roll, neither) can never bypass the VPs, yes. Spells that don't do HP damage don't have any other effects on a natural 1.
I'm aware that some spells get improved by this system, others not. But sadly, I couldn't come up with a working system for those other spells, so far.

You might be right and the whole idea is crap, but it *did* sound good at first. :)
Ra-Tiel
01-14-07, 10:44 AM Spells that don't allow a saving throw (and don't require an attack roll, neither) can never bypass the VPs, yes. Spells that don't do HP damage don't have any other effects on a natural 1.
I'm aware that some spells get improved by this system, others not. But sadly, I couldn't come up with a working system for those other spells, so far.
That's exactly what I meant with "irregularities". A burning hands could kill a character instantly, while a magic missile could not. From a logic point of view it should be the other way round because mm strikes "unerringly" and stuff. ;)

You might be right and the whole idea is crap, but it *did* sound good at first. :)
As said, a system designed from the ground up with scaled saving throws in mind would be pretty cool - probably. But just trying to put that in DnD does not work out smoothly, there're just too many spells and abilities that are incompatible with such a system.

Which leads to the goal of developing said system designed from the ground up with such a mechanic in mind. ;) :plotting:
IronMouse
01-14-07, 02:50 PM Ah, why not? Go ahead, I'll be glad to help ^^
Arcade
01-16-07, 07:52 PM Spells that don't allow a saving throw (and don't require an attack roll, neither) can never bypass the VPs, yes. Spells that don't do HP damage don't have any other effects on a natural 1.
I'm aware that some spells get improved by this system, others not. But sadly, I couldn't come up with a working system for those other spells, so far.

Why don't you just have the target of those spells make saving throws. The save doesn't affect damage, but it can be used to determine critical hits or not.
Dantano
01-16-07, 08:52 PM I'm also planning on using the class defense and armor as damage reduction variant. In the star wars system I know damage reduction only applies to wound points, which makes sense, but I'm curious as to how those mechanics would translate to D&D. Should DR also be applied to vitality in D&D? The main difference is that in D&D this variant's class defense bonus' are much higher than in the star wars game for their respective classes.

This raises another question, how would multiclassing work with class defense in mind? In star wars you can simply -2 from the class defense at first level in any new class. In the variant tables in unearthed arcana, this wouldnt make much sense, there'd be too little insentive to stick to one class.
LordMax
02-07-07, 10:45 AM Hello... I have a question that you guys/girls might be able to assist me with.

If you hit a Troll with a fireball, the troll will probably be totally destroyed since he will get the damage to his WP and wont succed with the transfer-to-VP save. Avarage 10D6 fireball is an avarge DC 45 for the poor troll. Usually a troll is a good monster to use against magic-users since they are tough, good hp, good damage and regereration. Now however can a lv 5 mage destroy trolls by the dozen with a little luck. Do you have any comments or houserules to handle this?

Thanks for your help
Xeviat-DM
02-07-07, 06:35 PM Simple. Rather than there be a fortitude save to transfer WP damage to VP, make it a fortitude check instead. They then transfer a number of WP to VP damage equal to the result of their check.

It's clunky, but it gets the job done. The only other way to really manage things would be to once again reintroduce nonlethal damage, or to use a Injury System. The WP/VP system wasn't really designed with D&D in mind, a fact I am lothe to admit now, and there are many little issues that are tough to handle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dantano 01-10-07, 08:10 PM	I've played star wars d20 and I really liked it, and I was excited to discover the variant in unearthed arcana. My question is, how do you deal with magic? Some spells like magic missile automatically connect, so what then? I can see how you can play it off as a vitality damage instead of wound points, but melf's acid arrow would HAVE to deal wound points. The campaign I'm using this for is going to be low magic so this may tip the scales and reballance the magic using classes. For people that have used it, how have youd one it, and how did it effect the game?
IronMouse 01-11-07, 04:59 AM	Spell damage is usually VP damage. The only exception are spells that require an attack roll, usually touch attacks. They can crit as usual and then deal WP damage. That's all. However, I use a house rule that if you roll a natural 1 on a saving throw against a spell or other effect (breath weapons etc.) that doesn't require an attack roll, and you "confirm" the roll (roll the save again, if you fail, it's confirmed) then the spell/effect deals WP damage instead. This can quickly lead to insta-kills, especially at higher levels, so be careful to use that.
Dantano 01-13-07, 02:48 PM	What about area effects like fireball? Is that when you're saying you use the save fail rule for criticals?
Xeviat-DM 01-13-07, 03:13 PM	Spells need critical failures and critical successes, in my opinion. This would require some changes with several mechanics, but I think it could be rewarding: Critical Spells[list] 20 = Critical Success; you suffer no effect. Success < 20 = Success; generally suffer half or partial effect. Failure > 1 = Failure; suffer full effect. 1 = Critical Failure; you suffer an expanded effect. For damaging spells, the expanded effect should be 1 WP damage per die of VP damage; anything more would get rediculous, as this would turn 4th level or higher evocation spells to almost instant kill spells past 11th level. Then, evasion now allows you to treat successes as critical successes, and improved evasion allows you to treat failures as successes. This would require creating a simple solution, such as double durration or 1 WP per damage die, or it would requie creating custom Critical Failures for all spells.
Dantano 01-13-07, 03:31 PM	hmm, I really like the 1 WP per damage die for critical attacks/critical fails. I really like this system but I feel like the way its presented leaves so many questions. I'm going to run a low magic campaign so I'm still weighing options with magic to try and ballance it. I'm worried about not giving enough insentive to be a casting class if I keep limitting them.
IronMouse 01-13-07, 04:58 PM	What about area effects like fireball? Is that when you're saying you use the save fail rule for criticals? Exactly. If you get hit by a fireball, you roll your save. If you succeed, half damage to VP, normally. If you fail, full damage to VP. If you fail on natural 1, the spell "threatens a crit", so roll again. Success means full damage to VP, as above. Fail means damage goes to WPs. Either full, which is very lethal, or half (despite the failed save). Half is still quite dangerous.
Ra-Tiel 01-14-07, 07:43 AM	Exactly. If you get hit by a fireball, you roll your save. If you succeed, half damage to VP, normally. If you fail, full damage to VP. If you fail on natural 1, the spell "threatens a crit", so roll again. Success means full damage to VP, as above. Fail means damage goes to WPs. Either full, which is very lethal, or half (despite the failed save). Half is still quite dangerous. And what about spells that hit automatically, like magic missile or pretty much any other Target spell? What about spells that already have a different effect depending on the save, like disintegrate? What about spells that don't deal HP damage normally, like avasculate? You either have to look at almost any damaging spell in existance and adjust its effect, or you create mechanical irregularities because spell A works this way and spell B works a different way. If you design the game system from ground up to include layered effects for saving throws/spells it's ok, but jury-rigging that onto DnD/d20 is prone to problems. Also, the suggested mechanic of spells "threatening" even more increases chance of PC fatality, especially if the spell targets a character's weak save and failure is highly probable to begin with. My suggestion would be to use VP/WP as written: all damage goes to VP first, and bleeds over to WP if VP are depleted (although this opens up a completely different can of worms :shifty: ). Critical hits, and only critical hits, bypass VP and go directly to WP. Anything else is a big nono imho.
IronMouse 01-14-07, 09:33 AM	And what about spells that hit automatically, like magic missile or pretty much any other Target spell? What about spells that already have a different effect depending on the save, like disintegrate? What about spells that don't deal HP damage normally, like avasculate? Spells that don't allow a saving throw (and don't require an attack roll, neither) can never bypass the VPs, yes. Spells that don't do HP damage don't have any other effects on a natural 1. I'm aware that some spells get improved by this system, others not. But sadly, I couldn't come up with a working system for those other spells, so far. You might be right and the whole idea is crap, but it did sound good at first. :)
Ra-Tiel 01-14-07, 10:44 AM	Spells that don't allow a saving throw (and don't require an attack roll, neither) can never bypass the VPs, yes. Spells that don't do HP damage don't have any other effects on a natural 1. I'm aware that some spells get improved by this system, others not. But sadly, I couldn't come up with a working system for those other spells, so far. That's exactly what I meant with "irregularities". A burning hands could kill a character instantly, while a magic missile could not. From a logic point of view it should be the other way round because mm strikes "unerringly" and stuff. ;) You might be right and the whole idea is crap, but it did sound good at first. :) As said, a system designed from the ground up with scaled saving throws in mind would be pretty cool - probably. But just trying to put that in DnD does not work out smoothly, there're just too many spells and abilities that are incompatible with such a system. Which leads to the goal of developing said system designed from the ground up with such a mechanic in mind. ;) :plotting:
IronMouse 01-14-07, 02:50 PM	Ah, why not? Go ahead, I'll be glad to help ^^
Arcade 01-16-07, 07:52 PM	Spells that don't allow a saving throw (and don't require an attack roll, neither) can never bypass the VPs, yes. Spells that don't do HP damage don't have any other effects on a natural 1. I'm aware that some spells get improved by this system, others not. But sadly, I couldn't come up with a working system for those other spells, so far. Why don't you just have the target of those spells make saving throws. The save doesn't affect damage, but it can be used to determine critical hits or not.
Dantano 01-16-07, 08:52 PM	I'm also planning on using the class defense and armor as damage reduction variant. In the star wars system I know damage reduction only applies to wound points, which makes sense, but I'm curious as to how those mechanics would translate to D&D. Should DR also be applied to vitality in D&D? The main difference is that in D&D this variant's class defense bonus' are much higher than in the star wars game for their respective classes. This raises another question, how would multiclassing work with class defense in mind? In star wars you can simply -2 from the class defense at first level in any new class. In the variant tables in unearthed arcana, this wouldnt make much sense, there'd be too little insentive to stick to one class.
LordMax 02-07-07, 10:45 AM	Hello... I have a question that you guys/girls might be able to assist me with. If you hit a Troll with a fireball, the troll will probably be totally destroyed since he will get the damage to his WP and wont succed with the transfer-to-VP save. Avarage 10D6 fireball is an avarge DC 45 for the poor troll. Usually a troll is a good monster to use against magic-users since they are tough, good hp, good damage and regereration. Now however can a lv 5 mage destroy trolls by the dozen with a little luck. Do you have any comments or houserules to handle this? Thanks for your help
Xeviat-DM 02-07-07, 06:35 PM	Simple. Rather than there be a fortitude save to transfer WP damage to VP, make it a fortitude check instead. They then transfer a number of WP to VP damage equal to the result of their check. It's clunky, but it gets the job done. The only other way to really manage things would be to once again reintroduce nonlethal damage, or to use a Injury System. The WP/VP system wasn't really designed with D&D in mind, a fact I am lothe to admit now, and there are many little issues that are tough to handle.