Vitalizing Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Vitalizing Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowslayer
05-20-04, 06:47 PM My group and I have recently been playtesting Spell Points with the Vitalizing variant. Our current conclusion: Vitalizing can be too much bookkeeping, even though we like the concept of your spellcasting power being tied to your physical state. So we've come up with some mechanics for a variant on Vitalizing, and I thought we'd post them here to see what everyone thought:

It's really pretty simple. Constitution is used as the relevant ability for determining bonus spell points. Worrying about your current number of spell points (half, quarter, two-thirds, etc...) is eliminated. You have the spell points or you don't, and you do not become fatigued for using all your spell points. If you wish to exceed your normal pool of spell points, doing so requires a successful Concentration check DC 20 + the spell level. If you fail this check you do not cast the spell. If you do exceed your spell point pool, you automatically become fatigued and take lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the level of the spell cast (no save or Concentration check to avoid this). If you do it successfully a second time you become exhausted and take lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the level of the spell cast. If you do it successfully a third time, you take lethal and nonlethal damage equal to the level of the spell cast and must make a Concentration check DC 20 + level of the spell cast to remain conscious. This DC increases by +1 for every additional time you exceed your spell point pool. If you are previously fatigued or exhausted, penalties and mechanics apply normally (if you are already fatigued and exceed your spell point pool once, you become exhausted, etc...).There it is, constructive comments are appreciated.
Reney
05-22-04, 05:24 AM I don't use this variant with my players. Hopefully, yours are better behaved, but I'll tell you what our problem would be with it.

The guy who likes to play a Wizard in my party would get a Clerical cohort and Cast himself to near-death then have his Cleric heal him.

There are also spells and magical items that either remove or prevent the effects of Fatigue/Exaustion/etc. How will you deal with those?
Shadowslayer
05-22-04, 12:56 PM Thanks for the reply.

Casting oneself to near-death and then getting healed is a good consideration. Fortunately, the fatigue/exhaustion is not connected to his hit points. He could cast himself into unconciousness just from the non-lethal damage, but as you mentioned, cure spells (for example) could easily heal all that up in a single casting. Fatigue automatically occurs after exceeding his spell point pool, and exhaustion automatically occurs the next time he does it (assuming he's still fatigued and not been the recipient of a restoration spell, for instance). Unconciousness follows exhaustion if he fails an ever-increasingly difficult Concentration check. No saves. So unless he's got a friendly divine caster willing to sacrifice his every action to alternate between casting cure and restoration spells on him, eventually he'll black out.

Fortunately, I do have good players so I don't forsee this as a problem for our group. However, I do want this mechanic to be soundly balanced; I'm open to suggestions for this. Perhaps a tougher DC? Make the DC increase more rapidly? Rule that magical aid cannot erase the effects of the hit point / non-lethal damage or fatigue/exhaustion?
Reney
05-22-04, 04:38 PM Depending on what books you use there are spells that cancel Fatigue and Exaustion without the GP cost. I think one is a 2nd level spell, but I can't recall right now. It wouldn't be too far fetched that a healer type would give up their attacks to watch the Wizard blast everything out of their way. Especially, if they run out of ways to damage whatever they're fighting.

I liked this variant too so I combined it with the Wound/Vitality mixture and set it up so that they could exceed their normal limit, but they had to make the checks and then the damage went straight to wounds. The non-leathal damage is ignored in that variant.

Using the Wound variant, any character who has wound damage is automatically fatigued anyway. I'm not sure it's implied in the rules, but we keep the fatigued condition even after the character has been healed. The Diehard feat allows you to ignore the penalties, but the condition still applies.

If you don't like that variant, I don't think I would up the DC's. It would only make it harder for the people who don't try to power game. The ones who do would find a way around a higher DC.

You could always make up some other condition that applies instead of basic fatigue and exhaustion. Like Casting Sickness - Stage 1, 2, 3, etc.... It could even have the same penalties just not be removable by any means other than rest.

That would still be easy for high level spellcasters to keep casting their highest level spell. Maybe you could make the damage automatic and as a variant (if you want them to be able to do that or if your players are really that well behaved :)) you can chose to give them the Concentration check.

Or you could do damage equal to the spell check multiplied by 1/2 or 1/5 the amount you failed by.

So, if you wanted to recast your 7th level spell and you needed a 27, but you get 15 you missed by 12. Using the 1/5 version you'd take 14 (7x2) damage. The threat of more damage might make it a little more threatening to higher level characters.

Of course by level 17 even a Wizard can probably take 9 or 18 damage and his ranks are possibly at 20 by themselves. That's why I thought x2. Maybe even multiplied by the total you missed by. That would make it harder for low level characters who are more likely to fail and less likely to have too many hit points. That could work just fine if the idea is working with spellcasting longer makes higher level characters more likely to do it than low level characters.

I probably seem paranoid, but I played Wheel of Time with my friends. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but basically there was a way for a magic user to "Overchannel" and cast extra spells if they could make the checks. One of the worst things that could happen was that you could burn the ability to use magic out of yourself and others included instant insanity, death, etc...

My player got his Concentration really high through feats and putting his highest ability score there and then proceeded to blow up everything that looked at them funny. Of course, there were concequences, but the point is... it was a far cry from rescuing the villagers from wolves who had started to get a little too close to town for the comfort of the villagers.

It was like... "you see a half-starved wolf cub"
-fireball
"you see it's mother trying to guard a makeshift den"
-fireball
"you see cave bear who forced them out of their homes and normal hunting groun---"
-fireball, fireball, and, if it's still moving, fireball
"you see the burning ruins of what used to be a peaceful forest. the villagers are horrified. they shun you and say they want you never to return to their village..."
-.....fireball
Reney
05-22-04, 04:40 PM Also, I'm going on a trip for a few months and I might not get a chance to check the boards. I'll check on this one when I get a chance, but if you figure out how to mash everything together I'd be happy to see what advice you come up with.
Shadowslayer
05-22-04, 07:54 PM Originally posted by Reney
Depending on what books you use there are spells that cancel Fatigue and Exaustion without the GP cost. I think one is a 2nd level spell, but I can't recall right now. Names of the spells would certainly help (since I don't feel like rummaging through all my sourcebooks ;) ). If at all possible, I'd like to keep the fatigue/exhaustion mechanics the way they are for simplicity's sake.

We tried the Vitality/Wound point variant, but the group as a whole felt it just wasn't for us. We liked the concept, but the application felt as if it would damage our game more than serve it.
If you don't like that variant, I don't think I would up the DC's. It would only make it harder for the people who don't try to power game. The ones who do would find a way around a higher DC. Good point. I think a steadily scaling DC is the better answer. Perhaps we should make the DC increase by +1 for every attempt to exceed your spell points made after the first?
Maybe you could make the damage automatic and as a variant (if you want them to be able to do that or if your players are really that well behaved ) you can chose to give them the Concentration check. I already mentioned (though perhaps my wording was unclear) that all damage taken from exceeding your spell point pool was automatic with no save. The Concentration check is to determine if you were successful casting the spell. If so, then you automatically take lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the spell level.Or you could do damage equal to the spell check multiplied by 1/2 or 1/5 the amount you failed by. Like my sig shows, I try to be an advocate of simplicity. Maybe if we ruled that you take double damage if you missed your Concentration check by 5 or 10? Sounds like a reasonable rule without too much bookkeeping.My player got his Concentration really high through feats and putting his highest ability score there and then proceeded to blow up everything that looked at them funny. I understand the fear there; that's why I would like this to be a solidly balanced mechanic (if there is such a thing). That said, players who adopted that sort of behavior in my game wouldn't last long. :devil:

Thanks for the input - it's good to have.
Reney
05-22-04, 08:14 PM You were very clear about the damage. Sorry, I don't know how I missed it :rolleyes:

I really like the idea of increasing the DC for each time you do it. That makes it possible for low level people, but harder for the people who want to do it continuously.

I didn't really like the idea of calculating the 1/2 and 1/5 thing. Your idea of basing the result on the amount you missed by is very similar to my 1/5, but easier. Would you stop at double damage? Maybe you could do x3 on a natural 1, but only if you're real into critical sucesses and misses.

We use the variant that adds 20 on a natural 20 or subtracts 20 on a natural 1, but only if the event wouldn't normally be too affected by simple success or failure (like Initiative or sometimes Craft). We like that because it gets a little boring when you know there's no possible way any of the monsters are going to go before most of the party members. It's also funny to watch the +24 Init Rogue go butt last. :D

In my game, if someone rolled a one they'd miss the DC and add -20 to their modifier. So, they'd probably take a lot more damage than normal if we were trying to do it the way I suggested. Bleh.
Reney
05-22-04, 08:30 PM I can't find the 2nd level spell, and I should pack my books up before my boyfriend gets home. Maybe it was in one of the weird books like Sword and Sorcery or something.

Minatures Handbook
Panacea
Conjuration (healing)
Level: Cleric 4, Druid 5, Healer 4
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell channels positive energy into a creature to wipe away afflictions. It immediately ends any of the following conditions affecting the target: blinded, confused , dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, and stunned. It negates sleep effects and the effects of the feeblemind spell, and ends any additional effects from poison, as the neutralize poison spell. It also cures 1d8 points per caster level (up to +20).
Panacea does not remove ability damage, negative levels, or permanently drained levels. It does not remove conditions caused by spells of 7th level or higher, or by spells or effects that cannot be dispelled.
Used against an undead creature, panacea deals damage instead of curing the creature (which takes half damage if it makes a Will saving throw), but it has no other effect.

Only one I could find today. Have fun.
Shadowslayer
05-22-04, 09:08 PM Yeah, I don't have the miniatures handbook, so I would've missed that one (unless it's printed elsewhere as well). Removing any fatigue or exhaustion probably won't be a big issue as long as the DC steadily increases from when you first attempt to exceed your spell points. After all, regardless of your state of fatigue, you still lose hit points and take subdual damage for succeeding at your Concentration checks, and it gets tougher to continually do so. Granted, the cleric/wizard combo could be potentially troubling, but we may just have to consider it one of those loopholes we find so regularly within the core rules. Besides, most intelligent foes would probably realize what was going on eventually and specifically target the cleric.

So in summary, it looks like the rules I've outlined above should work, with perhaps the following alterations: The DC of the Concentration check increases by +1 for each attempt to exceed your spell point pool after the first attempt (note that I use the word attempt here, not just on a success).
If the Concentration check fails by 5 or more, the caster takes lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the spell level x2 (no save).Hopefully that covers it. I'll pitch it to my players ASAP. If you can think of anything else let me know. Thanks for the help!
Reney
05-22-04, 09:30 PM I like it the way you have it there. Hope it works.

:invasion:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowslayer 05-20-04, 06:47 PM	My group and I have recently been playtesting Spell Points with the Vitalizing variant. Our current conclusion: Vitalizing can be too much bookkeeping, even though we like the concept of your spellcasting power being tied to your physical state. So we've come up with some mechanics for a variant on Vitalizing, and I thought we'd post them here to see what everyone thought: It's really pretty simple. Constitution is used as the relevant ability for determining bonus spell points. Worrying about your current number of spell points (half, quarter, two-thirds, etc...) is eliminated. You have the spell points or you don't, and you do not become fatigued for using all your spell points. If you wish to exceed your normal pool of spell points, doing so requires a successful Concentration check DC 20 + the spell level. If you fail this check you do not cast the spell. If you do exceed your spell point pool, you automatically become fatigued and take lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the level of the spell cast (no save or Concentration check to avoid this). If you do it successfully a second time you become exhausted and take lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the level of the spell cast. If you do it successfully a third time, you take lethal and nonlethal damage equal to the level of the spell cast and must make a Concentration check DC 20 + level of the spell cast to remain conscious. This DC increases by +1 for every additional time you exceed your spell point pool. If you are previously fatigued or exhausted, penalties and mechanics apply normally (if you are already fatigued and exceed your spell point pool once, you become exhausted, etc...).There it is, constructive comments are appreciated.
Reney 05-22-04, 05:24 AM	I don't use this variant with my players. Hopefully, yours are better behaved, but I'll tell you what our problem would be with it. The guy who likes to play a Wizard in my party would get a Clerical cohort and Cast himself to near-death then have his Cleric heal him. There are also spells and magical items that either remove or prevent the effects of Fatigue/Exaustion/etc. How will you deal with those?
Shadowslayer 05-22-04, 12:56 PM	Thanks for the reply. Casting oneself to near-death and then getting healed is a good consideration. Fortunately, the fatigue/exhaustion is not connected to his hit points. He could cast himself into unconciousness just from the non-lethal damage, but as you mentioned, cure spells (for example) could easily heal all that up in a single casting. Fatigue automatically occurs after exceeding his spell point pool, and exhaustion automatically occurs the next time he does it (assuming he's still fatigued and not been the recipient of a restoration spell, for instance). Unconciousness follows exhaustion if he fails an ever-increasingly difficult Concentration check. No saves. So unless he's got a friendly divine caster willing to sacrifice his every action to alternate between casting cure and restoration spells on him, eventually he'll black out. Fortunately, I do have good players so I don't forsee this as a problem for our group. However, I do want this mechanic to be soundly balanced; I'm open to suggestions for this. Perhaps a tougher DC? Make the DC increase more rapidly? Rule that magical aid cannot erase the effects of the hit point / non-lethal damage or fatigue/exhaustion?
Reney 05-22-04, 04:38 PM	Depending on what books you use there are spells that cancel Fatigue and Exaustion without the GP cost. I think one is a 2nd level spell, but I can't recall right now. It wouldn't be too far fetched that a healer type would give up their attacks to watch the Wizard blast everything out of their way. Especially, if they run out of ways to damage whatever they're fighting. I liked this variant too so I combined it with the Wound/Vitality mixture and set it up so that they could exceed their normal limit, but they had to make the checks and then the damage went straight to wounds. The non-leathal damage is ignored in that variant. Using the Wound variant, any character who has wound damage is automatically fatigued anyway. I'm not sure it's implied in the rules, but we keep the fatigued condition even after the character has been healed. The Diehard feat allows you to ignore the penalties, but the condition still applies. If you don't like that variant, I don't think I would up the DC's. It would only make it harder for the people who don't try to power game. The ones who do would find a way around a higher DC. You could always make up some other condition that applies instead of basic fatigue and exhaustion. Like Casting Sickness - Stage 1, 2, 3, etc.... It could even have the same penalties just not be removable by any means other than rest. That would still be easy for high level spellcasters to keep casting their highest level spell. Maybe you could make the damage automatic and as a variant (if you want them to be able to do that or if your players are really that well behaved :)) you can chose to give them the Concentration check. Or you could do damage equal to the spell check multiplied by 1/2 or 1/5 the amount you failed by. So, if you wanted to recast your 7th level spell and you needed a 27, but you get 15 you missed by 12. Using the 1/5 version you'd take 14 (7x2) damage. The threat of more damage might make it a little more threatening to higher level characters. Of course by level 17 even a Wizard can probably take 9 or 18 damage and his ranks are possibly at 20 by themselves. That's why I thought x2. Maybe even multiplied by the total you missed by. That would make it harder for low level characters who are more likely to fail and less likely to have too many hit points. That could work just fine if the idea is working with spellcasting longer makes higher level characters more likely to do it than low level characters. I probably seem paranoid, but I played Wheel of Time with my friends. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but basically there was a way for a magic user to "Overchannel" and cast extra spells if they could make the checks. One of the worst things that could happen was that you could burn the ability to use magic out of yourself and others included instant insanity, death, etc... My player got his Concentration really high through feats and putting his highest ability score there and then proceeded to blow up everything that looked at them funny. Of course, there were concequences, but the point is... it was a far cry from rescuing the villagers from wolves who had started to get a little too close to town for the comfort of the villagers. It was like... "you see a half-starved wolf cub" -fireball "you see it's mother trying to guard a makeshift den" -fireball "you see cave bear who forced them out of their homes and normal hunting groun---" -fireball, fireball, and, if it's still moving, fireball "you see the burning ruins of what used to be a peaceful forest. the villagers are horrified. they shun you and say they want you never to return to their village..." -.....fireball
Reney 05-22-04, 04:40 PM	Also, I'm going on a trip for a few months and I might not get a chance to check the boards. I'll check on this one when I get a chance, but if you figure out how to mash everything together I'd be happy to see what advice you come up with.
Shadowslayer 05-22-04, 07:54 PM	Originally posted by Reney Depending on what books you use there are spells that cancel Fatigue and Exaustion without the GP cost. I think one is a 2nd level spell, but I can't recall right now. Names of the spells would certainly help (since I don't feel like rummaging through all my sourcebooks ;) ). If at all possible, I'd like to keep the fatigue/exhaustion mechanics the way they are for simplicity's sake. We tried the Vitality/Wound point variant, but the group as a whole felt it just wasn't for us. We liked the concept, but the application felt as if it would damage our game more than serve it. If you don't like that variant, I don't think I would up the DC's. It would only make it harder for the people who don't try to power game. The ones who do would find a way around a higher DC. Good point. I think a steadily scaling DC is the better answer. Perhaps we should make the DC increase by +1 for every attempt to exceed your spell points made after the first? Maybe you could make the damage automatic and as a variant (if you want them to be able to do that or if your players are really that well behaved ) you can chose to give them the Concentration check. I already mentioned (though perhaps my wording was unclear) that all damage taken from exceeding your spell point pool was automatic with no save. The Concentration check is to determine if you were successful casting the spell. If so, then you automatically take lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the spell level.Or you could do damage equal to the spell check multiplied by 1/2 or 1/5 the amount you failed by. Like my sig shows, I try to be an advocate of simplicity. Maybe if we ruled that you take double damage if you missed your Concentration check by 5 or 10? Sounds like a reasonable rule without too much bookkeeping.My player got his Concentration really high through feats and putting his highest ability score there and then proceeded to blow up everything that looked at them funny. I understand the fear there; that's why I would like this to be a solidly balanced mechanic (if there is such a thing). That said, players who adopted that sort of behavior in my game wouldn't last long. :devil: Thanks for the input - it's good to have.
Reney 05-22-04, 08:14 PM	You were very clear about the damage. Sorry, I don't know how I missed it :rolleyes: I really like the idea of increasing the DC for each time you do it. That makes it possible for low level people, but harder for the people who want to do it continuously. I didn't really like the idea of calculating the 1/2 and 1/5 thing. Your idea of basing the result on the amount you missed by is very similar to my 1/5, but easier. Would you stop at double damage? Maybe you could do x3 on a natural 1, but only if you're real into critical sucesses and misses. We use the variant that adds 20 on a natural 20 or subtracts 20 on a natural 1, but only if the event wouldn't normally be too affected by simple success or failure (like Initiative or sometimes Craft). We like that because it gets a little boring when you know there's no possible way any of the monsters are going to go before most of the party members. It's also funny to watch the +24 Init Rogue go butt last. :D In my game, if someone rolled a one they'd miss the DC and add -20 to their modifier. So, they'd probably take a lot more damage than normal if we were trying to do it the way I suggested. Bleh.
Reney 05-22-04, 08:30 PM	I can't find the 2nd level spell, and I should pack my books up before my boyfriend gets home. Maybe it was in one of the weird books like Sword and Sorcery or something. Minatures Handbook Panacea Conjuration (healing) Level: Cleric 4, Druid 5, Healer 4 Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 Standard Action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell channels positive energy into a creature to wipe away afflictions. It immediately ends any of the following conditions affecting the target: blinded, confused , dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, and stunned. It negates sleep effects and the effects of the feeblemind spell, and ends any additional effects from poison, as the neutralize poison spell. It also cures 1d8 points per caster level (up to +20). Panacea does not remove ability damage, negative levels, or permanently drained levels. It does not remove conditions caused by spells of 7th level or higher, or by spells or effects that cannot be dispelled. Used against an undead creature, panacea deals damage instead of curing the creature (which takes half damage if it makes a Will saving throw), but it has no other effect. Only one I could find today. Have fun.
Shadowslayer 05-22-04, 09:08 PM	Yeah, I don't have the miniatures handbook, so I would've missed that one (unless it's printed elsewhere as well). Removing any fatigue or exhaustion probably won't be a big issue as long as the DC steadily increases from when you first attempt to exceed your spell points. After all, regardless of your state of fatigue, you still lose hit points and take subdual damage for succeeding at your Concentration checks, and it gets tougher to continually do so. Granted, the cleric/wizard combo could be potentially troubling, but we may just have to consider it one of those loopholes we find so regularly within the core rules. Besides, most intelligent foes would probably realize what was going on eventually and specifically target the cleric. So in summary, it looks like the rules I've outlined above should work, with perhaps the following alterations: The DC of the Concentration check increases by +1 for each attempt to exceed your spell point pool after the first attempt (note that I use the word attempt here, not just on a success). If the Concentration check fails by 5 or more, the caster takes lethal and non-lethal damage equal to the spell level x2 (no save).Hopefully that covers it. I'll pitch it to my players ASAP. If you can think of anything else let me know. Thanks for the help!
Reney 05-22-04, 09:30 PM	I like it the way you have it there. Hope it works. :invasion: