Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mula 03-25-05, 04:54 PM	The VP/WP system is great but nonlethal damage with it is not. As written, the only way to knock someone unconscious is to almost kill the creature. Any solutions to this problem?
rbingham2000 03-27-05, 04:30 AM	Personally, I'd rule that any Wound damage inflicted on someone with something that deals nonlethal damage (either from knocking VP down to 0 or scoring a crit) requires the victim to make a Fortitude save to avoid getting knocked unconscious, with a DC of 10 + the damage done.
Keoki 03-27-05, 10:24 AM	I modified the system somewhat, and you can see my efforts here: http://dndcounters.tripod.com/vitality.htm
Mula 03-27-05, 02:45 PM	That looks like it fixes things nicely, Keoki. Thanks.
Ranger REG 03-27-05, 07:59 PM	The VP/WP system is great but nonlethal damage with it is not. As written, the only way to knock someone unconscious is to almost kill the creature. Any solutions to this problem? Normally, unarmed strike do not crit, therefore it does not bypass VP. You could houserule that unarmed strike can inflict double damage on a crit to VP. Alternatively, you could use D&D nonlethal (formerly subdual) damage and tally up and compare against VP, unless you roll a crit, and then compare nonlethal damage against WP. Second alternative has a bit of danger: If you crit, it bypass VP, and mark unarmed damage toward your WP instead. Chances are you can unwillingly kill that person (like throwing a heart punch that suddenly disrupt the heart's rhythm and sends the victim into cardiac arrest).
scwolf 03-27-05, 09:26 PM	Normally, unarmed strike do not crit If that's true, why does the weapon table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons) from the system reference document list "x2" in the critical column of the entry for unarmed strike? Unless you mean normally in the sense of "When I roll 1d20, it normally comes up some other number than 20".
rbingham2000 03-28-05, 12:12 AM	If that's true, why does the weapon table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons) from the system reference document list "x2" in the critical column of the entry for unarmed strike? I'm thinking that he's talking about unarmed strikes in the VP/WP system, because the weapon table you're referring to is based on the regular D&D hit point system. An unarmed crit in the VP/WP system would dish out up to three points of damage, plus your Strength modifier. Hardly enough to kill anyone with one hit (unless you're dealing with Raistlin with his CON of only 3), but with enough such hits, it could happen -- people have been beaten to death before, and people have died in the ring before.
scwolf 03-28-05, 01:36 AM	I'm thinking that he's talking about unarmed strikes in the VP/WP system, because the weapon table you're referring to is based on the regular D&D hit point system. UA's VP/WP system doesn't change which weapons crit and which don't, it just changes the threat range on weapons that have a multiplier higher than x2. Keoki's system, which has been linked to from this thread, also doesn't change which weapons crit and which don't. Are we talking about a different system other than these two?
rbingham2000 03-28-05, 03:22 PM	UA's VP/WP system doesn't change which weapons crit and which don't, it just changes the threat range on weapons that have a multiplier higher than x2. Keoki's system, which has been linked to from this thread, also doesn't change which weapons crit and which don't. Are we talking about a different system other than these two? I am talking about the VP/WP system as presented in Unearthed Arcana. Nonlethal Damage This system doesn't differentiate between lethal and nonlethal damage. Attacks and effects that normally deal nonlethal damage reduce vitality points, except on a critical hit, in which case they reduce wound points Emphasis mine. Since an unarmed strike has a crit multiplier in the hit point system, as you pointed out in the weapon table, that means that it can crit on a natural 20. Unarmed crits in the hit point system aren't very effective, however, against anything above the lower levels unless you're a monk. And unless you're a monk or have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, your opponent also gets an attack of opportunity on you. Like I said before, an unarmed crit in the VP/WP system would result in dealing up to three points of damage, plus your Strength modifier, to your opponent's Wound Points. Mula had a problem with this, as it means that you have to almost kill someone in order to knock him out, which is why he started this thread.
Ranger REG 03-29-05, 04:30 AM	My bad. Then consider my second alternative above as normal under the VP/WP System, and the other two as alternatives.
JohnSnow 04-01-05, 08:18 PM	A solution to this problem was proposed by one of the posters on the Midnight fansite Against the Shadow. His solution was to create a category of "nonlethal" wound damage, in effect combining the nonlethal core rules with VP/WP per Unearthed Arcana. In effect, nonlethal damage does VP as long as the target has VP. On a critical hit (or when the defender has no VP left), a nonlethal strike deals nonlethal WP. When the character's nonlethal WP exceeds his remaining WP, he falls unconscious. Yes, this means that characters can be rendered unconscious by a few VERY well-placed "lucky punches" (1d3 + Str bonus + Power attack...you could even do this on one punch, in theory). For even more effective nonlethal combat, add in the d20 Modern feats for increasing punching damage and crit ranges (Knockout Punch, Brawl, and Improved Brawl) and you're good to go. Just my thoughts. But the nonlethal WP definitely solves the problem. Personally, I'm not so wedded to "realism" that I think hit points are unrealistic...
Mula 04-03-05, 08:57 AM	Personally, I'm not so wedded to "realism" that I think hit points are unrealistic... That's true, especially with heroic RPGs like D&D. But the VP/WP adds a flair of cinematic action, which is very nice.