VP/WP and NPCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

VP/WP and NPCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
allenchan
03-18-06, 04:40 PM Does anybody have any house rules on vitality points for NPC classes, beyond "they dont get them" ? I just have problems when a CR 10 creature has 15 hit points.
Xeviat-DM
03-18-06, 08:48 PM I tend to disreguard that portion of the rules; it's silly. I also don't boost the CR of low HD creatures, though I do boost the CR of very large creatures as the book says.

The reason is that an NPC classed creature, be it a warrior or an adept or a commoner, should probably surrender, play dead, or flee upon taking any wound damage, unless they're under the leadership of a high charisma leader. I utilized rules similar to the morale system in Miniature's Handbook to decide this; but I don't tend to worry about rolling.
jrg2118
03-19-06, 12:05 PM I would give 1 VP or more per level depending on their BAB progression. A "good" (ends at +20) would get 3 VP per level, a "moderate" (ends at +15) would get 2 VP per level, and a "poor" (ends at +10) gets only 1 VP per level.

This gives NPCs (especially high level ones) a chance of taking some hits before they are wounded. This way, a Warrior 10 would have 30 VP, not nearly as much as an average Fighter 10 (with 55 VP), but enough to make him more of a worthy oppoenent if you need to.

It works well for my game. ;)

Cheers,
-Jim
Millennium
03-19-06, 02:20 PM I'm not sure what you're getting at. Most monsters do have vitality points, equal to the HP they would normally have. Are you talking about NPC humanoids? Even these have VP in much the same way characters do, except for the DMG-specific "NPC classes".
allenchan
03-19-06, 06:29 PM I'm not sure what you're getting at. Most monsters do have vitality points, equal to the HP they would normally have. Are you talking about NPC humanoids? Even these have VP in much the same way characters do, except for the DMG-specific "NPC classes".

Hence why my original post stated "NPC classes". Thanks for reading. :rolleyes:
Phoenix Knight
03-19-06, 09:48 PM I actually kind of like it, although, of course, I tone down the CRs. It gives me troops that can actually hit PCs at that level, while still being easy enough to kill that battles don't last too long. Perhaps this is b/c I use the Iron Heroes defense system which would make PCs unhittable at higher levels, though.

One of the issues with the d20 system base, is that even large numbers of average soldiers is very little threat to high level PCs, because they can't hit enough. VP/WP kind of fixes this, but it relies on those NPCs to be able to not only hit, by crit (which requires hitting twice).

I would rather not think that a 16th level fighter can literally take on a thousand warriors because they cannot hit him. By making the warriors higher level but with no WP, they can hit, without in any way becoming as powerful as a PC of their level, and thus not throwing out of balance the ecology of the world (that is, core rules, it's hard to imagine people fearing a troll in a town with two dozen 10th level warriors protecting it; but if those warriors have only WP, they still fear the troll in a way a PC wouldn't).

Of course, if you don't like the rule, just change it, instead of changing the CR of the NPC.
allenchan
03-19-06, 11:28 PM Interesting point, Phoenix Knight. Mind if I ask how you assign CRs for higher level NPCs, then?
Phoenix Knight
03-20-06, 12:43 PM Generally at 1/2 the level of the character, though I admit I kind of base it ad hoc on the situation. Any time you deal with an unorthodox encounter, you sort of have to look at it and see how much of a challenge it is.

If the party has a wizard and nukes them all with a single fireball, I'm not sure six 16th level warriors should count as three CR 8s. I run Iron Heroes, so this is not an issue. To defeat a 16th level warrior, a 16th level fighter at least probably has to risk taking some damage himself.

I explain it more by saying that common soldiers might be good with their weapons, but they lack the reflexes and defensive training of true heroes (PCs/major NPCs).

Admittedly, if you use a 1st level warrior and say 1/2 level CR, he will come out harder than a CR 1/2 monster (though PCs have more damage they can take than those without WP, so it can even out), but in my setting, I generally assume the average soldier is 2nd-4th level, having had some battle experience.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
allenchan 03-18-06, 04:40 PM	Does anybody have any house rules on vitality points for NPC classes, beyond "they dont get them" ? I just have problems when a CR 10 creature has 15 hit points.
Xeviat-DM 03-18-06, 08:48 PM	I tend to disreguard that portion of the rules; it's silly. I also don't boost the CR of low HD creatures, though I do boost the CR of very large creatures as the book says. The reason is that an NPC classed creature, be it a warrior or an adept or a commoner, should probably surrender, play dead, or flee upon taking any wound damage, unless they're under the leadership of a high charisma leader. I utilized rules similar to the morale system in Miniature's Handbook to decide this; but I don't tend to worry about rolling.
jrg2118 03-19-06, 12:05 PM	I would give 1 VP or more per level depending on their BAB progression. A "good" (ends at +20) would get 3 VP per level, a "moderate" (ends at +15) would get 2 VP per level, and a "poor" (ends at +10) gets only 1 VP per level. This gives NPCs (especially high level ones) a chance of taking some hits before they are wounded. This way, a Warrior 10 would have 30 VP, not nearly as much as an average Fighter 10 (with 55 VP), but enough to make him more of a worthy oppoenent if you need to. It works well for my game. ;) Cheers, -Jim
Millennium 03-19-06, 02:20 PM	I'm not sure what you're getting at. Most monsters do have vitality points, equal to the HP they would normally have. Are you talking about NPC humanoids? Even these have VP in much the same way characters do, except for the DMG-specific "NPC classes".
allenchan 03-19-06, 06:29 PM	I'm not sure what you're getting at. Most monsters do have vitality points, equal to the HP they would normally have. Are you talking about NPC humanoids? Even these have VP in much the same way characters do, except for the DMG-specific "NPC classes". Hence why my original post stated "NPC classes". Thanks for reading. :rolleyes:
Phoenix Knight 03-19-06, 09:48 PM	I actually kind of like it, although, of course, I tone down the CRs. It gives me troops that can actually hit PCs at that level, while still being easy enough to kill that battles don't last too long. Perhaps this is b/c I use the Iron Heroes defense system which would make PCs unhittable at higher levels, though. One of the issues with the d20 system base, is that even large numbers of average soldiers is very little threat to high level PCs, because they can't hit enough. VP/WP kind of fixes this, but it relies on those NPCs to be able to not only hit, by crit (which requires hitting twice). I would rather not think that a 16th level fighter can literally take on a thousand warriors because they cannot hit him. By making the warriors higher level but with no WP, they can hit, without in any way becoming as powerful as a PC of their level, and thus not throwing out of balance the ecology of the world (that is, core rules, it's hard to imagine people fearing a troll in a town with two dozen 10th level warriors protecting it; but if those warriors have only WP, they still fear the troll in a way a PC wouldn't). Of course, if you don't like the rule, just change it, instead of changing the CR of the NPC.
allenchan 03-19-06, 11:28 PM	Interesting point, Phoenix Knight. Mind if I ask how you assign CRs for higher level NPCs, then?
Phoenix Knight 03-20-06, 12:43 PM	Generally at 1/2 the level of the character, though I admit I kind of base it ad hoc on the situation. Any time you deal with an unorthodox encounter, you sort of have to look at it and see how much of a challenge it is. If the party has a wizard and nukes them all with a single fireball, I'm not sure six 16th level warriors should count as three CR 8s. I run Iron Heroes, so this is not an issue. To defeat a 16th level warrior, a 16th level fighter at least probably has to risk taking some damage himself. I explain it more by saying that common soldiers might be good with their weapons, but they lack the reflexes and defensive training of true heroes (PCs/major NPCs). Admittedly, if you use a 1st level warrior and say 1/2 level CR, he will come out harder than a CR 1/2 monster (though PCs have more damage they can take than those without WP, so it can even out), but in my setting, I generally assume the average soldier is 2nd-4th level, having had some battle experience.