VP/WP messed up and wrong?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

VP/WP messed up and wrong?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rice830
01-03-07, 06:32 PM Ok, i love the vp/wp system, i really do. unfortunetly something came to mind. Ok, a 1st lvl elven Fighter with wpn focus longbow and point blank shot shoots at a goblin, 1st warrior. He rolls a twenty! The goblin has no vp so it already goes to his wp, so crits dont help at all; then he rolls a max damage! 9 damage! The goblin gets nailed right in the eye, because lets face it, a goblin is going to get hit in the eye some time or another. The goblin lives... only has 3 wp left, but lives... How messed up it that? is there somthing im missing?
Archmage Atrus
01-03-07, 06:36 PM The first time a character takes wound damage—even a single point—he becomes fatigued. A fatigued character can’t run or charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity until he has rested for 8 hours (or until the wound damage is healed, if that occurs first). Additional wound damage doesn’t make the character exhausted.

In addition, any time an attack deals wound damage to a character, he must succeed on a Fortitude saving thow (DC 5 + number of wound points lost from the attack) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. (During that time, any other character can take a standard action to help the stunned character recover; doing so ends the stunned condition.)

Uhm. This is pretty huge, dude. Sure, you didn't one-shoot the goblin, but there is no good ******* reason why it's going to keep fighting at this point.

The Vit/Wounds system is meant to be, overall, less deadly. I think you'll find that a lot of the time once you get into dealing wound points there's really little option but to surrender or die.
058
01-03-07, 06:58 PM Uh, no, VP/WP was designed to be more deadly . . . that's why things like crits and fire go straight to WP, skipping VP (or is it the other way around? I forget).

Anyway, in answer to your problem, I would simply house-rule it that a critical hit versus a foe with no remaining VP does double damage.

Also, don't role-play it as hitting the goblin in the eye if it isn't killing the thing.
Archmage Atrus
01-03-07, 08:22 PM I should have rephrased.

It's theoretically meant to be deadlier, yes. But in actual practice it ends up being less deadly, for the reasons stated above. (Until high level, at which point the average critical will kill you.)
Ranger REG
01-03-07, 09:03 PM Ok, i love the vp/wp system, i really do. unfortunetly something came to mind. Ok, a 1st lvl elven Fighter with wpn focus longbow and point blank shot shoots at a goblin, 1st warrior. He rolls a twenty! The goblin has no vp so it already goes to his wp, so crits dont help at all; then he rolls a max damage! 9 damage! The goblin gets nailed right in the eye, because lets face it, a goblin is going to get hit in the eye some time or another. The goblin lives... only has 3 wp left, but lives... How messed up it that? is there somthing im missing?
Nah. You're used to the effect of critical hits being applied in normal hit points system. In VP/WP, it's not so much yet the system itself is much more fatal to the character's health. You just have to remember, any damage to WP (wound points) -- even 1 point of damage -- is fatal to the character's health. And losing VP means you lose the only buffer or defense against your fragile WP.

If your VP is 0, then all future hits against you are always CRITICAL.
rice830
01-03-07, 10:31 PM I realize that ranger reg, but theoretically a goblin getting shot in the face with a bow from anyone, or for this example a 1st lvl archer, then it should die, the arrow could easily penetrate through the hollow area right above the eye and it would die;
this is all that im saying, i was just giving the example of a critical hit to show that even the best hit of an expert archer could kill a goblin.
058
01-04-07, 12:07 AM Not every critical hit is in the eye. If you kill the goblin with your critical hit, you can roleplay it as a shot in the eye, but if it just does a great deal of damage, then roleplay it as, say, getting kneecapped, or impaled through the torso - not an immediately lethal wound, but one that still feels like a critical hit.

Your problem is not in the system, but in the way you roleplay it.
legophreak
01-04-07, 01:55 AM Not every critical hit is in the eye. If you kill the goblin with your critical hit, you can roleplay it as a shot in the eye, but if it just does a great deal of damage, then roleplay it as, say, getting kneecapped, or impaled through the torso - not an immediately lethal wound, but one that still feels like a critical hit.

Your problem is not in the system, but in the way you roleplay it.

What he said

It sounds like you are trying to apply realistic values to an abstract mechanic.

In a realistic sense, landing a critical hit could/would be a death-dealing blow.

In the abstract of D&D combat, a critical hit is simply one that does lots of damage.

The DM at this point is free to embellish as they see fit.

Using the VP/WP mechanic, a critical hit should mean that death is easier to obtain then under the normal rules, but that doesn't mean that EVERY critical hit should be inst-o-death...unless your DM wants it that way of course.
Xeviat-DM
01-04-07, 03:14 AM Describe where an attack hits after you roll damage and compare it to WP.

WP/VP does increase survivability of first level characters; and that's why fractional CR creatures get their CRs increased in WP/VP.
IronMouse
01-04-07, 11:06 AM Also don't forget that the goblin who takes 9 WP damage also has to make a fort save (DC 5+9=14) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. So there's a good chance that he goes down even if he survives that hit.
Gold Katana
01-04-07, 01:24 PM We played with VP/WP last campaign. Although it was interesting at first (and gave low-levelers a bonus), it became a real downer after 10th level. Inconsistent and way too deadly.

This campaign, we are using using HP's, allowing armor to convert damage to nonlethal. Much more balanced and easy to use. So far, my group loves it.
legophreak
01-04-07, 04:09 PM This campaign, we are using using HP's, allowing armor to convert damage to nonlethal. Much more balanced and easy to use. So far, my group loves it.

Kinda like the Armor as DR in UA, but you take the difference in non-lethal?
rice830
01-04-07, 05:01 PM Please explain Gold Katana, that sounds interesting, and i realize that i was just trying to apply real world situations to the game; that armor to non-lethal sounds interesting though.
Gold Katana
01-06-07, 11:37 PM I'm not sure but I believe we actually took this from UA.

Anyhow, we consider armor, shield, and natural armor to add to overall AC (as usual). However, those bonuses also count toward what we call "armor reduction". When you take damage from melee (or spells that have to hit your AC, etc), damage up to your armor reduction is taken in the form of non-lethal, instead. Thus, your nonlethal is adding up as your hit points are coming down. When the nonlethal exceeds hp's - you're unconscious (again, as usual).

The system is very simple to use, with the only added bookkeeping being your nonlethal total. It takes exactly the same amount of damage to take out the PC (or monster or whatever) as in the standard rules, except most tend to be "knocked out" rather than fighting like a wildcat until the death blow (i.e. 0 hp's or below). It has made our game much more oriented towards the heal (skill) and allows the PC's and others to actually be taken prisoner, knocked out and robbed, held for interrogation, etc. Also, the moral viewpoints come out much more often because often the PC's are faced with vanquished, but still alive, opponents.

Anyhow, it works well for us and I'm sure we'll keep using it.
Ranger REG
01-07-07, 05:51 PM Please explain Gold Katana, that sounds interesting, and i realize that i was just trying to apply real world situations to the game; that armor to non-lethal sounds interesting though.
Yeah, I recommend you don't do that. :smirk:
Jerks
01-09-07, 12:12 AM In Star Wars if you score a critical hit on a character without any Vitality (most mooks) that drops the character to 0 Wounds.

You could adopt that rule for crits against mooks if you want.
rice830
01-09-07, 12:50 AM Ooh, that's a possiblity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rice830 01-03-07, 06:32 PM	Ok, i love the vp/wp system, i really do. unfortunetly something came to mind. Ok, a 1st lvl elven Fighter with wpn focus longbow and point blank shot shoots at a goblin, 1st warrior. He rolls a twenty! The goblin has no vp so it already goes to his wp, so crits dont help at all; then he rolls a max damage! 9 damage! The goblin gets nailed right in the eye, because lets face it, a goblin is going to get hit in the eye some time or another. The goblin lives... only has 3 wp left, but lives... How messed up it that? is there somthing im missing?
Archmage Atrus 01-03-07, 06:36 PM	The first time a character takes wound damage—even a single point—he becomes fatigued. A fatigued character can’t run or charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity until he has rested for 8 hours (or until the wound damage is healed, if that occurs first). Additional wound damage doesn’t make the character exhausted. In addition, any time an attack deals wound damage to a character, he must succeed on a Fortitude saving thow (DC 5 + number of wound points lost from the attack) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. (During that time, any other character can take a standard action to help the stunned character recover; doing so ends the stunned condition.) Uhm. This is pretty huge, dude. Sure, you didn't one-shoot the goblin, but there is no good ******* reason why it's going to keep fighting at this point. The Vit/Wounds system is meant to be, overall, less deadly. I think you'll find that a lot of the time once you get into dealing wound points there's really little option but to surrender or die.
058 01-03-07, 06:58 PM	Uh, no, VP/WP was designed to be more deadly . . . that's why things like crits and fire go straight to WP, skipping VP (or is it the other way around? I forget). Anyway, in answer to your problem, I would simply house-rule it that a critical hit versus a foe with no remaining VP does double damage. Also, don't role-play it as hitting the goblin in the eye if it isn't killing the thing.
Archmage Atrus 01-03-07, 08:22 PM	I should have rephrased. It's theoretically meant to be deadlier, yes. But in actual practice it ends up being less deadly, for the reasons stated above. (Until high level, at which point the average critical will kill you.)
Ranger REG 01-03-07, 09:03 PM	Ok, i love the vp/wp system, i really do. unfortunetly something came to mind. Ok, a 1st lvl elven Fighter with wpn focus longbow and point blank shot shoots at a goblin, 1st warrior. He rolls a twenty! The goblin has no vp so it already goes to his wp, so crits dont help at all; then he rolls a max damage! 9 damage! The goblin gets nailed right in the eye, because lets face it, a goblin is going to get hit in the eye some time or another. The goblin lives... only has 3 wp left, but lives... How messed up it that? is there somthing im missing? Nah. You're used to the effect of critical hits being applied in normal hit points system. In VP/WP, it's not so much yet the system itself is much more fatal to the character's health. You just have to remember, any damage to WP (wound points) -- even 1 point of damage -- is fatal to the character's health. And losing VP means you lose the only buffer or defense against your fragile WP. If your VP is 0, then all future hits against you are always CRITICAL.
rice830 01-03-07, 10:31 PM	I realize that ranger reg, but theoretically a goblin getting shot in the face with a bow from anyone, or for this example a 1st lvl archer, then it should die, the arrow could easily penetrate through the hollow area right above the eye and it would die; this is all that im saying, i was just giving the example of a critical hit to show that even the best hit of an expert archer could kill a goblin.
058 01-04-07, 12:07 AM	Not every critical hit is in the eye. If you kill the goblin with your critical hit, you can roleplay it as a shot in the eye, but if it just does a great deal of damage, then roleplay it as, say, getting kneecapped, or impaled through the torso - not an immediately lethal wound, but one that still feels like a critical hit. Your problem is not in the system, but in the way you roleplay it.
legophreak 01-04-07, 01:55 AM	Not every critical hit is in the eye. If you kill the goblin with your critical hit, you can roleplay it as a shot in the eye, but if it just does a great deal of damage, then roleplay it as, say, getting kneecapped, or impaled through the torso - not an immediately lethal wound, but one that still feels like a critical hit. Your problem is not in the system, but in the way you roleplay it. What he said It sounds like you are trying to apply realistic values to an abstract mechanic. In a realistic sense, landing a critical hit could/would be a death-dealing blow. In the abstract of D&D combat, a critical hit is simply one that does lots of damage. The DM at this point is free to embellish as they see fit. Using the VP/WP mechanic, a critical hit should mean that death is easier to obtain then under the normal rules, but that doesn't mean that EVERY critical hit should be inst-o-death...unless your DM wants it that way of course.
Xeviat-DM 01-04-07, 03:14 AM	Describe where an attack hits after you roll damage and compare it to WP. WP/VP does increase survivability of first level characters; and that's why fractional CR creatures get their CRs increased in WP/VP.
IronMouse 01-04-07, 11:06 AM	Also don't forget that the goblin who takes 9 WP damage also has to make a fort save (DC 5+9=14) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. So there's a good chance that he goes down even if he survives that hit.
Gold Katana 01-04-07, 01:24 PM	We played with VP/WP last campaign. Although it was interesting at first (and gave low-levelers a bonus), it became a real downer after 10th level. Inconsistent and way too deadly. This campaign, we are using using HP's, allowing armor to convert damage to nonlethal. Much more balanced and easy to use. So far, my group loves it.
legophreak 01-04-07, 04:09 PM	This campaign, we are using using HP's, allowing armor to convert damage to nonlethal. Much more balanced and easy to use. So far, my group loves it. Kinda like the Armor as DR in UA, but you take the difference in non-lethal?
rice830 01-04-07, 05:01 PM	Please explain Gold Katana, that sounds interesting, and i realize that i was just trying to apply real world situations to the game; that armor to non-lethal sounds interesting though.
Gold Katana 01-06-07, 11:37 PM	I'm not sure but I believe we actually took this from UA. Anyhow, we consider armor, shield, and natural armor to add to overall AC (as usual). However, those bonuses also count toward what we call "armor reduction". When you take damage from melee (or spells that have to hit your AC, etc), damage up to your armor reduction is taken in the form of non-lethal, instead. Thus, your nonlethal is adding up as your hit points are coming down. When the nonlethal exceeds hp's - you're unconscious (again, as usual). The system is very simple to use, with the only added bookkeeping being your nonlethal total. It takes exactly the same amount of damage to take out the PC (or monster or whatever) as in the standard rules, except most tend to be "knocked out" rather than fighting like a wildcat until the death blow (i.e. 0 hp's or below). It has made our game much more oriented towards the heal (skill) and allows the PC's and others to actually be taken prisoner, knocked out and robbed, held for interrogation, etc. Also, the moral viewpoints come out much more often because often the PC's are faced with vanquished, but still alive, opponents. Anyhow, it works well for us and I'm sure we'll keep using it.
Ranger REG 01-07-07, 05:51 PM	Please explain Gold Katana, that sounds interesting, and i realize that i was just trying to apply real world situations to the game; that armor to non-lethal sounds interesting though. Yeah, I recommend you don't do that. :smirk:
Jerks 01-09-07, 12:12 AM	In Star Wars if you score a critical hit on a character without any Vitality (most mooks) that drops the character to 0 Wounds. You could adopt that rule for crits against mooks if you want.
rice830 01-09-07, 12:50 AM	Ooh, that's a possiblity.