Warmage-style Cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warmage-style Cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Korimyr the Rat
10-03-05, 01:05 AM A lot of people complain that Clerics have an odd flavor--they pray for miracles every morning, not knowing what miracles they're going to need, and if they prayed for the wrong ones, they're out of luck.

On the other hand, if you make them spontaneous casters using the Unearthed Arcana variant, there are a lot of essential spells that they're likely to skip over in favor of spells that are useful more often.

How often do PCs cast atonement in your games? But... what kind of priest can't offer atonement to his flock?

Some people, on the other hand, simply let the Cleric spontaneously cast from their entire spell list, like the Warmage. This... this is brokentastic.

What I am thinking of doing is giving Clerics multiple spell lists-- a Universal list, lists based on Alignment (probably using the Alignment Domains), and then the Domains. Clerics can automatically cast any Universal Cleric spell, their choice of cure or inflict, and their Domain spells.

To make up for the narrowed spell list, they get additional Domains as they level-- at 6th, 11th, and 16th-- and the Advanced Learning class feature of the Warmage (or a drastically reduced Spells Known progression), applicable for any Cleric spell.

Opinions?

edit: Current implementation is Clerics get the Universal Spells, plus their Domain Spells, and then use Table 2-2 from Unearthed Arcana at half-rounded down. I still give the extra Domains at 6th, 11th, and 16th, though one of your 1st level Domains has to be an alignment.
Gilean
10-04-05, 01:20 PM What I am thinking of doing is giving Clerics multiple spell lists-- a Universal list, lists based on Alignment (probably using the Alignment Domains), and then the Domains. Clerics can automatically cast any Universal Cleric spell, their choice of cure or inflict, and their Domain spells.Please post these lists. I have a use for them.

The levels at which you'll be granting new domains; 5 (or 7th), 11 and 16 would be better. 6th, 12th and 18th are already full of everything.
Lina_Inverse
10-04-05, 02:27 PM Warmage style magic wouldbe broken for any non-warmage class.
Remeber the warmage list is only 9 spells, hurt things lvl1 though hurt things lvl9.

clerics have to prepare for umm the obvious reason, thats how MAGIC works in D&D.You either prep it, or you can only access a small subset of spells. And no cleric is capable of useing magic to violate the laws of magic, just like you cant use physics to violate the laws of physics.
Korimyr the Rat
10-04-05, 08:02 PM Please post these lists. I have a use for them.

Sure. I scaled it down to "if you can't cast this, you're not a priest" spells, and nixed automatic cure/inflict, to avoid stepping all over Healing and Destruction.

http://home.bresnan.net/~korimyr/Cleric%20Spell%20Lists%20(House%20Rules) .rtf

The levels at which you'll be granting new domains; 5 (or 7th), 11 and 16 would be better. 6th, 12th and 18th are already full of everything.

6/11/16 follows the extra attack progression for BAB.

I could do 5/10/15/20 for a more Wizardly parallel, but if I did that, I'd cut them down to 1 Domain at 1st.

Warmage style magic wouldbe broken for any non-warmage class.
Remeber the warmage list is only 9 spells, hurt things lvl1 though hurt things lvl9.

That's actually a fair point, yeah. On the other hand, most of my Universal spells are either extremely limited or have XP components-- and mostly relate to unscrewing someone who's in really bad shape.

clerics have to prepare for umm the obvious reason, thats how MAGIC works in D&D.You either prep it, or you can only access a small subset of spells.

They're still only getting a small subset of spells. They get more than a Sorceror, and more than a Favored Soul (which this is meant to replace), but they don't get as much flexibility in their selection as either. That's why I mentioned the Warmage, since they're in a similar position.

And no cleric is capable of useing magic to violate the laws of magic, just like you cant use physics to violate the laws of physics.

However I make Clerics work in my games are how the laws of magic work in my games-- I fail to see how they can possibly violate the laws of magic while obeying my House Rules.
FlameLover
10-05-05, 12:20 AM I'm doing something like this in the CS i'm making too. Adepts (what i call clerics) have a Universal list they can all cast plus 3-5 domains (not sure how many yet) and would get a few extra spells of their choice every now and then (But they mainly rely on domains and universal spells). And they spontaneously cast, so they are very similar.

I would re-work the domains though. I'm thinking of having multiple levels of power for domains which would go up. Like you'd start with say Fire, lesser domain and by level 20 have Fire, greater domain which'd give you more powers (inspired by that article in Regdar's about expanded Domains).

Just make sure your universal list is no more than 3 spells per level. Anything more and your giving them too much. Crunching the numbers i think 2 universals a level plus 4 domains sounds good. 6 spells of each level known seems good to me.
FlameLover
10-05-05, 12:29 AM EDIT: Sorry about the double post, didn't notice it before. Hate it when that happens.
Lina_Inverse
10-05-05, 07:55 AM That's actually a fair point, yeah. On the other hand, most of my Universal spells are either extremely limited or have XP components-- and mostly relate to unscrewing someone who's in really bad shape.

They're still only getting a small subset of spells. They get more than a Sorceror, and more than a Favored Soul (which this is meant to replace), but they don't get as much flexibility in their selection as either. That's why I mentioned the Warmage, since they're in a similar position.

I think ill go over your lists before fully responding to this.
Which it 404d also did you think about the fact that theres alot more healing on the cleric list than the crappy healing domain? Many of which fall smack dab into the nessasary for the partys functioning role.

However I make Clerics work in my games are how the laws of magic work in my games-- I fail to see how they can possibly violate the laws of magic while obeying my House Rules.

That was ment to be used in response to flavor. The laws of magic give either small subsets or full access but prepatory.
Korimyr the Rat
10-06-05, 01:08 AM I think ill go over your lists before fully responding to this.
Which it 404d also did you think about the fact that theres alot more healing on the cleric list than the crappy healing domain? Many of which fall smack dab into the nessasary for the partys functioning role.

Most of it either relates to Poison and Disease-- which are temporary, mostly tolerable conditions-- and negative levels. I covered that with restoration, since it heals ability damage.

I could look it over again and probably put those spells back on the list, depending on what levels they are.

Sorry about the 404-- remove the "%20%20" between the last paranthesis and ".rtf". I would do it myself, but the forum software keeps replacing it.

That was ment to be used in response to flavor. The laws of magic give either small subsets or full access but prepatory.

Fair enough.
Lina_Inverse
10-08-05, 04:36 PM Most of it either relates to Poison and Disease-- which are temporary, mostly tolerable conditions-- and negative levels. I covered that with restoration, since it heals ability damage.

I could look it over again and probably put those spells back on the list, depending on what levels they are.

Whos going to cure them if not the cleric.
Also id like to note for all peoples complaining about clerics, its importent to remember that in the end the most importent aspect of the caimpaign world is how it functions for the PCs. takeing out clerics supreme healing prowess cuts out there role in the party but gives no viable replacement.

Have you ever just though of changeing clerics to spont cast there domains? it really does help them flavorwise alot.
that list looks way too small and boring, btw.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korimyr the Rat 10-03-05, 01:05 AM	A lot of people complain that Clerics have an odd flavor--they pray for miracles every morning, not knowing what miracles they're going to need, and if they prayed for the wrong ones, they're out of luck. On the other hand, if you make them spontaneous casters using the Unearthed Arcana variant, there are a lot of essential spells that they're likely to skip over in favor of spells that are useful more often. How often do PCs cast atonement in your games? But... what kind of priest can't offer atonement to his flock? Some people, on the other hand, simply let the Cleric spontaneously cast from their entire spell list, like the Warmage. This... this is brokentastic. What I am thinking of doing is giving Clerics multiple spell lists-- a Universal list, lists based on Alignment (probably using the Alignment Domains), and then the Domains. Clerics can automatically cast any Universal Cleric spell, their choice of cure or inflict, and their Domain spells. To make up for the narrowed spell list, they get additional Domains as they level-- at 6th, 11th, and 16th-- and the Advanced Learning class feature of the Warmage (or a drastically reduced Spells Known progression), applicable for any Cleric spell. Opinions? edit: Current implementation is Clerics get the Universal Spells, plus their Domain Spells, and then use Table 2-2 from Unearthed Arcana at half-rounded down. I still give the extra Domains at 6th, 11th, and 16th, though one of your 1st level Domains has to be an alignment.
Gilean 10-04-05, 01:20 PM	What I am thinking of doing is giving Clerics multiple spell lists-- a Universal list, lists based on Alignment (probably using the Alignment Domains), and then the Domains. Clerics can automatically cast any Universal Cleric spell, their choice of cure or inflict, and their Domain spells.Please post these lists. I have a use for them. The levels at which you'll be granting new domains; 5 (or 7th), 11 and 16 would be better. 6th, 12th and 18th are already full of everything.
Lina_Inverse 10-04-05, 02:27 PM	Warmage style magic wouldbe broken for any non-warmage class. Remeber the warmage list is only 9 spells, hurt things lvl1 though hurt things lvl9. clerics have to prepare for umm the obvious reason, thats how MAGIC works in D&D.You either prep it, or you can only access a small subset of spells. And no cleric is capable of useing magic to violate the laws of magic, just like you cant use physics to violate the laws of physics.
Korimyr the Rat 10-04-05, 08:02 PM	Please post these lists. I have a use for them. Sure. I scaled it down to "if you can't cast this, you're not a priest" spells, and nixed automatic cure/inflict, to avoid stepping all over Healing and Destruction. http://home.bresnan.net/~korimyr/Cleric%20Spell%20Lists%20(House%20Rules) .rtf The levels at which you'll be granting new domains; 5 (or 7th), 11 and 16 would be better. 6th, 12th and 18th are already full of everything. 6/11/16 follows the extra attack progression for BAB. I could do 5/10/15/20 for a more Wizardly parallel, but if I did that, I'd cut them down to 1 Domain at 1st. Warmage style magic wouldbe broken for any non-warmage class. Remeber the warmage list is only 9 spells, hurt things lvl1 though hurt things lvl9. That's actually a fair point, yeah. On the other hand, most of my Universal spells are either extremely limited or have XP components-- and mostly relate to unscrewing someone who's in really bad shape. clerics have to prepare for umm the obvious reason, thats how MAGIC works in D&D.You either prep it, or you can only access a small subset of spells. They're still only getting a small subset of spells. They get more than a Sorceror, and more than a Favored Soul (which this is meant to replace), but they don't get as much flexibility in their selection as either. That's why I mentioned the Warmage, since they're in a similar position. And no cleric is capable of useing magic to violate the laws of magic, just like you cant use physics to violate the laws of physics. However I make Clerics work in my games are how the laws of magic work in my games-- I fail to see how they can possibly violate the laws of magic while obeying my House Rules.
FlameLover 10-05-05, 12:20 AM	I'm doing something like this in the CS i'm making too. Adepts (what i call clerics) have a Universal list they can all cast plus 3-5 domains (not sure how many yet) and would get a few extra spells of their choice every now and then (But they mainly rely on domains and universal spells). And they spontaneously cast, so they are very similar. I would re-work the domains though. I'm thinking of having multiple levels of power for domains which would go up. Like you'd start with say Fire, lesser domain and by level 20 have Fire, greater domain which'd give you more powers (inspired by that article in Regdar's about expanded Domains). Just make sure your universal list is no more than 3 spells per level. Anything more and your giving them too much. Crunching the numbers i think 2 universals a level plus 4 domains sounds good. 6 spells of each level known seems good to me.
FlameLover 10-05-05, 12:29 AM	EDIT: Sorry about the double post, didn't notice it before. Hate it when that happens.
Lina_Inverse 10-05-05, 07:55 AM	That's actually a fair point, yeah. On the other hand, most of my Universal spells are either extremely limited or have XP components-- and mostly relate to unscrewing someone who's in really bad shape. They're still only getting a small subset of spells. They get more than a Sorceror, and more than a Favored Soul (which this is meant to replace), but they don't get as much flexibility in their selection as either. That's why I mentioned the Warmage, since they're in a similar position. I think ill go over your lists before fully responding to this. Which it 404d also did you think about the fact that theres alot more healing on the cleric list than the crappy healing domain? Many of which fall smack dab into the nessasary for the partys functioning role. However I make Clerics work in my games are how the laws of magic work in my games-- I fail to see how they can possibly violate the laws of magic while obeying my House Rules. That was ment to be used in response to flavor. The laws of magic give either small subsets or full access but prepatory.
Korimyr the Rat 10-06-05, 01:08 AM	I think ill go over your lists before fully responding to this. Which it 404d also did you think about the fact that theres alot more healing on the cleric list than the crappy healing domain? Many of which fall smack dab into the nessasary for the partys functioning role. Most of it either relates to Poison and Disease-- which are temporary, mostly tolerable conditions-- and negative levels. I covered that with restoration, since it heals ability damage. I could look it over again and probably put those spells back on the list, depending on what levels they are. Sorry about the 404-- remove the "%20%20" between the last paranthesis and ".rtf". I would do it myself, but the forum software keeps replacing it. That was ment to be used in response to flavor. The laws of magic give either small subsets or full access but prepatory. Fair enough.
Lina_Inverse 10-08-05, 04:36 PM	Most of it either relates to Poison and Disease-- which are temporary, mostly tolerable conditions-- and negative levels. I covered that with restoration, since it heals ability damage. I could look it over again and probably put those spells back on the list, depending on what levels they are. Whos going to cure them if not the cleric. Also id like to note for all peoples complaining about clerics, its importent to remember that in the end the most importent aspect of the caimpaign world is how it functions for the PCs. takeing out clerics supreme healing prowess cuts out there role in the party but gives no viable replacement. Have you ever just though of changeing clerics to spont cast there domains? it really does help them flavorwise alot. that list looks way too small and boring, btw.