Weakening Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weakening Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
obsidianrose
12-02-06, 11:22 AM I was thinking that a good way to weaken gestalt down to a playable level is to really make each gestalt playable is to make half their levels go to one class, half to the other, but progress half a level at atime. As in, give them half the skill points each class would gain, but apply inteligence modifiers only once, half the hitpoints but constitution only once, half the bab from each, etc. This would mean that you'd have to keep track of halves of course. For class abilities, the DM could arbitrarily give one half of the abilities from each class, or pick randomly, and for spells, one half from each class if applicable, because stat modifiers. Any opinions on this? I have to make gestalts balanced vs nongestalts in my campaign.
Ryusage
12-02-06, 11:30 AM It's gonna be really complicated keeping track of all the rules; are you sure your players are going to be thrilled about keeping track of everything they have to do every level?
obsidianrose
12-02-06, 11:49 AM The one guy who wants gestalt loves keeping track of rules. It's his trade off for not taking normal classes anyways, as I was reluctant to allow gestalt. Is it balanced?
TarlSS
12-02-06, 12:16 PM There's no good way to balance gestalt because the entire point OF gestalt was to make more powerful PCs. I hate to say it, but your guy is shanking you.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-02-06, 01:07 PM First of all... it's weakening. Transitive verb form of weaken. Weaking, at best, is a misspelling of Wii King, which is what Shigeru Miyamoto demands to be called by his mistresses.

Secondly, gestalt is a campaign variant that has a deliberately higher power level for very small parties and anime fans. If you don't want to play something that powerful, don't use the variant. Just play with single classes and standard multiclassing.
Witch
12-02-06, 01:16 PM Hey, I hate anime, and I don't play very small parties, and I like Gestalt.
IdleAltruism
12-02-06, 03:11 PM Alot of PLAYERS like gestalt, for DMs its a nightmare to try and balance the game.
trapspringer
12-02-06, 05:05 PM I recommend you use gestalt, but one class must be an NPC class.

Fighter/Adept, Barbarain/Aristocrat, Rogue/Warrior, etc.

The power level is still considerably higher, but not near what it would be in regular gestalt.
trapspringer
12-02-06, 05:14 PM You would probably want to restrict the available NPC classes to be paired with wizard and sorcerer....
Witch
12-02-06, 05:15 PM Alot of PLAYERS like gestalt, for DMs its a nightmare to try and balance the game.
Not if you ban obviously broken combinations.
Grizzled Gryphon
12-02-06, 07:09 PM So, you would have a level 2 fighter/rogue with the level 1 abilites of a fighter, and the level 1 abilities of a rogue. Great idea!! Hey, wait, that is called multiclassing...
obsidianrose
12-02-06, 11:12 PM It basically is, except that at level one you have half of a level in each. Basically, the odd levels are handled differently. It's inspired by Vorpal Kickasso.
Sphyre
12-03-06, 12:27 AM First of all... it's weakening. Transitive verb form of weaken. Weaking, at best, is a misspelling of Wii King, which is what Shigeru Miyamoto demands to be called by his mistresses.

LOL :bow:
Larz_Fang
12-03-06, 05:44 AM It basically is, except that at level one you have half of a level in each. Basically, the odd levels are handled differently. It's inspired by Vorpal Kickasso.

His name is Señor Vorpal Kickass'o! Goblins - Life through Their Eyes rules! If my players would play Gestalt characters, I'd make sure that they would still be on the same line as single-class characters, even if my campaign is a little higher-powered than, say, NWN. If their racial ability score adjustments make their ability bonus total +0, they have total modifier of +7 (Though, when I saw that in NWN2 the wizard-girl at the beginning had ability score modifier total of +9 and she was just a human, I flipped out and couldn't stop ranting for half an hour). They shouldn't get any "distance advantage" when it's single-class chars versus Gestalt chars.
Witch
12-03-06, 08:11 AM His name is Señor Vorpal Kickass'o! Goblins - Life through Their Eyes rules! If my players would play Gestalt characters, I'd make sure that they would still be on the same line as single-class characters, even if my campaign is a little higher-powered than, say, NWN. If their racial ability score adjustments make their ability bonus total +0, they have total modifier of +7 (Though, when I saw that in NWN2 the wizard-girl at the beginning had ability score modifier total of +9 and she was just a human, I flipped out and couldn't stop ranting for half an hour). They shouldn't get any "distance advantage" when it's single-class chars versus Gestalt chars.
Yes, they should.
The entire idea is that Gestalt characters are more powerful. Why the hell use the variant if you don't want to make characters more powerful.
User5127
12-03-06, 08:28 AM Yes, they should.
The entire idea is that Gestalt characters are more powerful. Why the hell use the variant if you don't want to make characters more powerful.

Completly agree. you play gestalt to play overpower pcs. the very nature of the variant means that you can't balance the variant.

what you proposed is basically half a level up at each level for each class and to keep track of all the book keeping and halves flying around.

as dm, i'd say no. never. uh uh. and hellz no. since it pretty much is the same as regular multi classing, i'd advice you use regular multiclassing.

the only way to balance gestalt is to make every player gestalt.
explain to your player that every one can have just as much fun in a non gestalt campaign as in a normal campaign. ^_^

have fun
mkill
12-03-06, 09:11 AM C'mon, there is a way to weaken Gestalt... remove one of the two classes and use standard rules!
Novabomb
12-03-06, 09:22 AM Gestalt is not meant to be comparable to single classed units. Weakening Gestalt is self defeating, and the variant you propose is a more complicated form of multiclassing. They are functionally equivilent
Magrus
12-03-06, 09:42 AM Any opinions on this? I have to make gestalts balanced vs nongestalts in my campaign.

It won't work. It will leave a lop-sided character which won't be up to snuff with the standard characters.

I am starting a gestalt campaign because I happen to only have two players, and gave them multiple options, including running 2 chars a piece, or making gestalt chars, or picking up NPC's I throw at them to control in addition to their characters. Something to make them closer to being the equivalent of a 4 person party.

What you are trying to do is compare standard PC's vs gestalts, and it just won't work. Not unless you can correctly identify the equivalent ECL of a gestalt char and make say, a 5th level gestalt and the other characters say, 8th level standards. No clue whether that would be appropriate, but just an example. That way, it would be kind of like a level adjustment type thing. A more powerful class instead of a more powerful race. That'd be the most logical way to go about this thing you want to try out I think.
Templar_Prime
12-03-06, 01:08 PM Any opinions on this? I have to make gestalts balanced vs nongestalts in my campaign.

Um....Why? The entire point is that Gestalt is all or nothing. Either everything is gestalt or nothing is.

Speaking as someone from a group that has been using gestalt rules for over two years now, I have never had a problem. Sure, it takes a bit more work to make up encounters and character creation takes longer, but it ends up with more diverse characters. No more one-trick ponies.

Granted, we up the number of feats characters get and have skill points *stack* instead of taking the larger value, but still...
Green_eyes
12-03-06, 01:38 PM Use AD&D rules for multiclasses. I think that is what you are looking for.
It will certainly weaken his character. yet it will still be interesting to play.
Armoracia Rusticana
12-03-06, 02:53 PM I have run a game recently. I allowed players to create either geshtalt characters for level 8, or non-geshtalt ones for level 11. And treated both as ECL 11 characters. I.e. I added LA +3 to geshtalt characters. Know what happened? Out of the four, only a single character was geshtalt one.
DreamerInsane
12-03-06, 03:53 PM Naturally. Somewhere on the WotC site it says that a Gestalt party will be able to handle encounters approx. 1CR higher than a standard party.
scienceman47
12-03-06, 11:36 PM Um....Why? The entire point is that Gestalt is all or nothing. Either everything is gestalt or nothing is.

Speaking as someone from a group that has been using gestalt rules for over two years now, I have never had a problem. Sure, it takes a bit more work to make up encounters and character creation takes longer, but it ends up with more diverse characters. No more one-trick ponies.

Granted, we up the number of feats characters get and have skill points *stack* instead of taking the larger value, but still...

I've told people this, and got yelled at. People are convinced that gestalts extremely powerful or is a good idea to put with non gestalts, and its a chore and hassle to tell em otherwise.

This is just a complicated way to multiclass. Just demand that nobody play as gestalt or everyone play as gestalt.
ShinoAburame
12-04-06, 03:32 AM I thought of a simple way to balance out Gestalt..

a) Spellcasting classes can only gestalt with other spellcasting classes, just as non-spellcasing classes can only gestalt with non-spellcasting classes.

b) Clerics, druids, and psi warriors can only gestalt with npc classes. (Because these three classes are broken to begin with.)
Witch
12-04-06, 04:09 AM a) Spellcasting classes can only gestalt with other spellcasting classes, just as non-spellcasing classes can only gestalt with non-spellcasting classes.
This is actually a bad thing, in some cases, such as Duskblades. Duskblade + non-spellcasting = fine. Duskblade + spellcasting = auwtch.

b) Clerics, druids, and psi warriors can only gestalt with npc classes. (Because these three classes are broken to begin with.)
That's rather sad. They'll actually end up weaker due to this fact.
mkill
12-04-06, 10:57 AM I've told people this, and got yelled at. People are convinced that gestalts extremely powerful or is a good idea to put with non gestalts, and its a chore and hassle to tell em otherwise.

This is just a complicated way to multiclass. Just demand that nobody play as gestalt or everyone play as gestalt.

Right. The point about gestalt is not so much about raw power but sheer versatility. In their area of specialty, a normal character can keep up with the gestalt to some degree. After all, they cast the same highest-level spells, they have about the same number of hp, same bab, same number of actions per round, same number of feats.

The advantage of the gestalt is mainly that he can make up for the weaknesses of one class by adding a second one. It's harder for the DM to present a situation where the gestalt does not have the right tool. And that's why gestalt is for smaller parties.
mkill
12-04-06, 11:00 AM I thought of a simple way to balance out Gestalt..

a) Spellcasting classes can only gestalt with other spellcasting classes, just as non-spellcasing classes can only gestalt with non-spellcasting classes.

b) Clerics, druids, and psi warriors can only gestalt with npc classes. (Because these three classes are broken to begin with.)

Right... So a Gestalt Fighter/Rogue is balanced against a fighter only because... Well, they obviously both don't have spellcasting! Great logic. Do you really DM or just post here out of boredom?

The cleric idea is wonderful too... If you can't handle a single-class cleric you shouldn't start DMing gestalt maybe.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-04-06, 01:46 PM If you think gestalt is too powerful, just make everybody gestalt with commoner.
trapspringer
12-04-06, 01:52 PM I wonder if purely NPC gestalt would balance with player characters...

Expert/Magewrite seems like a fair match for a rogue.

I don't imagine Warrior/Adept would be more powerful than a gish build.

I bet Aristocrat/Warrior would be a little touch-and go at early levels because he can fullfill both tank/melee guy and social roles, but then again so can expert/something.

I bet that'd work.
DarkThoughts24
12-04-06, 05:43 PM meh the fix of just applying an LA+2 to anyone playing gestalt makes people wanna play them but hate not being as good as the single class character. if they make it to high levels where they shine, the single class 2 levels higher is really still pretty on par (similar amount of feats, a bit higher on the spellcasting/skill levels) saves and BAB might differ, in most cases the point is moot
scienceman47
12-05-06, 05:47 AM meh the fix of just applying an LA+2 to anyone playing gestalt makes people wanna play them but hate not being as good as the single class character. if they make it to high levels where they shine, the single class 2 levels higher is really still pretty on par (similar amount of feats, a bit higher on the spellcasting/skill levels) saves and BAB might differ, in most cases the point is moot

I would not recommend the use of LA for gestalts.

Consider, a lvl 20 character with 10lvls of mystic theurge and 5lvls of wizard and cleric versus a lvl 18 wizard cleric gestalt.

HP wise, the gestalt should gain 17 HP, assuming 14 con.
A gestalt will also cast as 18/18, versus 15/15.
No difference skill point wise.
saves have no clear winner; 4/1/4+1/1/4+3/3/7=8/5/15 over 11/6/11,
base attack bonus will favor gestalt by 5 Including the itereve attack
The gestalt will gain a total of 2 feats over the multiclass
The gestalt will continue to gain uses of turn undead and familiar progression

The winner is clear. I'll post further analysis for consideration (or rather, evidence in favor of not adding an LA)
Dæгơs
12-05-06, 11:47 PM ...Consider, a lvl 20 character with 10lvls of mystic theurge and 5lvls of wizard and cleric versus a lvl 18 wizard cleric gestalt.

if you want to actually compare them, why not use a descent PrC, like True Necromancer, rather than one that is commonly acknowledged as somewhat weak? to wit: the necro. would have the following going for it:

HP: avg 74 (gestalt=93, MT=63), all without con adjustments
caster level: 17/17 (gestalt=18/18, MT=15/15)
skills again the same
saves: 6,6,15 (gestalt=12,6,12; MT=8,5,15)
BAB: +10 (gestalt=15; MT=10)

as far as class abilities goes, the TN is no slouch, and i would say they are about even.
Malkieri
12-06-06, 12:08 AM To answer the OP, if everyone in your party doesn't Gestalt, no one should. There is no way to balance it with LA or any of this other stuff mentioned compared to a normal character.

I see plenty of fussing and bumbling on the boards about Gestalt characters, obviously posted by people that do not understand/have never played the option.

Gestalting is simple, it's easy, and it can add a lot of versatility to your PC's/BBEG. Something that is very important and must be remembered, is no matter if the PC's are gestalt or not, they still only get ONE action a round, that's it, just one.

What gestalting adds is survivability to PC's. Because the PC's have a few more tricks, they can generally survive more contingent encounters. Even as a gestalt, they still can't safely take on CR's more than 2 or so above the party [and I've seen normal parties do that], because once you get past Party Level+2 CR's, you tend toward having enemies with one hit kills and/or abilities.
User5127
12-06-06, 12:13 AM that i'd like to add they can take on more battles per day as well. you have to remeber that the normal 25% resouces doesn't apply any more since they have pretty much doubled that amount (except for HP)

IIRC the can also take on 5 challenges a day.
and thats at the +1 or +2 CR. the CR is variable depending on what kind of enemies they fight. ones that have heavy save effects for example would be +1 CR since the players will often times have at least 2 good saves if not all good saves. +2 CR critters are the ones that have tons of HP and what not. because they can take the beating that will be dished out.

EDIT: the dm generally has to fine tune it when he first starts playing a gestalt campaign, but thats no different than a new dm trying to create challenges for his players. sometimes the CR isn't appropriate regardless of that it says. the dm should always judge the encounter correctly. ^_^

but gestalt is a great variant. I recommend players try nongestalt because the added book keeping can sometimes confuse newer players. but otherwise its great!
Keterys
12-06-06, 05:10 PM About halfway down is one way to do a weakened gestalt that may be fine compared to normal classes (if anything, it may be weak), posted by TempusFujit, not the early stuff:

http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm12.showMessage?topicID=5 889.topic

Now, I personally am not a huge fan of having normal people, pseudo-gestalts and gestalts in the same party, but I do wonder if something like...

Level 1: Gestalt as normal (1/1)
Level 2: class A (2/1)
Level 3: Gestalt as normal (3/2)
Level 4: class B (3/3)
Etc

would work (you'd maybe need to do a little math explanation of how to deal with skill points, etc)

give you 20 hit dice, etc, but the class progressions of 15/15... by carving out the very upper band of spellcasting, it might also make it less obvious to do caster/noncaster as a combo, and take out some of the more broken class/prestige class abilities and spells.

Might be a more pleasant options for DMs to control. Wonder how it would compare ECL/CR-wise.
Larz_Fang
12-07-06, 04:36 AM How about adding flaws without bonus feats to gestalt chars? And how about just letting them choose their good save between the two classes and balancing the Hit Dice to the average value of the two classes, exept that in such cases such as Fighter/Barbarian Gestalt it's the lower Hit Dice. Base Attack Bonus should be the better one.

Btw, what is the case in 3-way Gestalts?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
obsidianrose 12-02-06, 11:22 AM	I was thinking that a good way to weaken gestalt down to a playable level is to really make each gestalt playable is to make half their levels go to one class, half to the other, but progress half a level at atime. As in, give them half the skill points each class would gain, but apply inteligence modifiers only once, half the hitpoints but constitution only once, half the bab from each, etc. This would mean that you'd have to keep track of halves of course. For class abilities, the DM could arbitrarily give one half of the abilities from each class, or pick randomly, and for spells, one half from each class if applicable, because stat modifiers. Any opinions on this? I have to make gestalts balanced vs nongestalts in my campaign.
Ryusage 12-02-06, 11:30 AM	It's gonna be really complicated keeping track of all the rules; are you sure your players are going to be thrilled about keeping track of everything they have to do every level?
obsidianrose 12-02-06, 11:49 AM	The one guy who wants gestalt loves keeping track of rules. It's his trade off for not taking normal classes anyways, as I was reluctant to allow gestalt. Is it balanced?
TarlSS 12-02-06, 12:16 PM	There's no good way to balance gestalt because the entire point OF gestalt was to make more powerful PCs. I hate to say it, but your guy is shanking you.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-02-06, 01:07 PM	First of all... it's weakening. Transitive verb form of weaken. Weaking, at best, is a misspelling of Wii King, which is what Shigeru Miyamoto demands to be called by his mistresses. Secondly, gestalt is a campaign variant that has a deliberately higher power level for very small parties and anime fans. If you don't want to play something that powerful, don't use the variant. Just play with single classes and standard multiclassing.
Witch 12-02-06, 01:16 PM	Hey, I hate anime, and I don't play very small parties, and I like Gestalt.
IdleAltruism 12-02-06, 03:11 PM	Alot of PLAYERS like gestalt, for DMs its a nightmare to try and balance the game.
trapspringer 12-02-06, 05:05 PM	I recommend you use gestalt, but one class must be an NPC class. Fighter/Adept, Barbarain/Aristocrat, Rogue/Warrior, etc. The power level is still considerably higher, but not near what it would be in regular gestalt.
trapspringer 12-02-06, 05:14 PM	You would probably want to restrict the available NPC classes to be paired with wizard and sorcerer....
Witch 12-02-06, 05:15 PM	Alot of PLAYERS like gestalt, for DMs its a nightmare to try and balance the game. Not if you ban obviously broken combinations.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-02-06, 07:09 PM	So, you would have a level 2 fighter/rogue with the level 1 abilites of a fighter, and the level 1 abilities of a rogue. Great idea!! Hey, wait, that is called multiclassing...
obsidianrose 12-02-06, 11:12 PM	It basically is, except that at level one you have half of a level in each. Basically, the odd levels are handled differently. It's inspired by Vorpal Kickasso.
Sphyre 12-03-06, 12:27 AM	First of all... it's weakening. Transitive verb form of weaken. Weaking, at best, is a misspelling of Wii King, which is what Shigeru Miyamoto demands to be called by his mistresses. LOL :bow:
Larz_Fang 12-03-06, 05:44 AM	It basically is, except that at level one you have half of a level in each. Basically, the odd levels are handled differently. It's inspired by Vorpal Kickasso. His name is Señor Vorpal Kickass'o! Goblins - Life through Their Eyes rules! If my players would play Gestalt characters, I'd make sure that they would still be on the same line as single-class characters, even if my campaign is a little higher-powered than, say, NWN. If their racial ability score adjustments make their ability bonus total +0, they have total modifier of +7 (Though, when I saw that in NWN2 the wizard-girl at the beginning had ability score modifier total of +9 and she was just a human, I flipped out and couldn't stop ranting for half an hour). They shouldn't get any "distance advantage" when it's single-class chars versus Gestalt chars.
Witch 12-03-06, 08:11 AM	His name is Señor Vorpal Kickass'o! Goblins - Life through Their Eyes rules! If my players would play Gestalt characters, I'd make sure that they would still be on the same line as single-class characters, even if my campaign is a little higher-powered than, say, NWN. If their racial ability score adjustments make their ability bonus total +0, they have total modifier of +7 (Though, when I saw that in NWN2 the wizard-girl at the beginning had ability score modifier total of +9 and she was just a human, I flipped out and couldn't stop ranting for half an hour). They shouldn't get any "distance advantage" when it's single-class chars versus Gestalt chars. Yes, they should. The entire idea is that Gestalt characters are more powerful. Why the hell use the variant if you don't want to make characters more powerful.
User5127 12-03-06, 08:28 AM	Yes, they should. The entire idea is that Gestalt characters are more powerful. Why the hell use the variant if you don't want to make characters more powerful. Completly agree. you play gestalt to play overpower pcs. the very nature of the variant means that you can't balance the variant. what you proposed is basically half a level up at each level for each class and to keep track of all the book keeping and halves flying around. as dm, i'd say no. never. uh uh. and hellz no. since it pretty much is the same as regular multi classing, i'd advice you use regular multiclassing. the only way to balance gestalt is to make every player gestalt. explain to your player that every one can have just as much fun in a non gestalt campaign as in a normal campaign. ^_^ have fun
mkill 12-03-06, 09:11 AM	C'mon, there is a way to weaken Gestalt... remove one of the two classes and use standard rules!
Novabomb 12-03-06, 09:22 AM	Gestalt is not meant to be comparable to single classed units. Weakening Gestalt is self defeating, and the variant you propose is a more complicated form of multiclassing. They are functionally equivilent
Magrus 12-03-06, 09:42 AM	Any opinions on this? I have to make gestalts balanced vs nongestalts in my campaign. It won't work. It will leave a lop-sided character which won't be up to snuff with the standard characters. I am starting a gestalt campaign because I happen to only have two players, and gave them multiple options, including running 2 chars a piece, or making gestalt chars, or picking up NPC's I throw at them to control in addition to their characters. Something to make them closer to being the equivalent of a 4 person party. What you are trying to do is compare standard PC's vs gestalts, and it just won't work. Not unless you can correctly identify the equivalent ECL of a gestalt char and make say, a 5th level gestalt and the other characters say, 8th level standards. No clue whether that would be appropriate, but just an example. That way, it would be kind of like a level adjustment type thing. A more powerful class instead of a more powerful race. That'd be the most logical way to go about this thing you want to try out I think.
Templar_Prime 12-03-06, 01:08 PM	Any opinions on this? I have to make gestalts balanced vs nongestalts in my campaign. Um....Why? The entire point is that Gestalt is all or nothing. Either everything is gestalt or nothing is. Speaking as someone from a group that has been using gestalt rules for over two years now, I have never had a problem. Sure, it takes a bit more work to make up encounters and character creation takes longer, but it ends up with more diverse characters. No more one-trick ponies. Granted, we up the number of feats characters get and have skill points stack instead of taking the larger value, but still...
Green_eyes 12-03-06, 01:38 PM	Use AD&D rules for multiclasses. I think that is what you are looking for. It will certainly weaken his character. yet it will still be interesting to play.
Armoracia Rusticana 12-03-06, 02:53 PM	I have run a game recently. I allowed players to create either geshtalt characters for level 8, or non-geshtalt ones for level 11. And treated both as ECL 11 characters. I.e. I added LA +3 to geshtalt characters. Know what happened? Out of the four, only a single character was geshtalt one.
DreamerInsane 12-03-06, 03:53 PM	Naturally. Somewhere on the WotC site it says that a Gestalt party will be able to handle encounters approx. 1CR higher than a standard party.
scienceman47 12-03-06, 11:36 PM	Um....Why? The entire point is that Gestalt is all or nothing. Either everything is gestalt or nothing is. Speaking as someone from a group that has been using gestalt rules for over two years now, I have never had a problem. Sure, it takes a bit more work to make up encounters and character creation takes longer, but it ends up with more diverse characters. No more one-trick ponies. Granted, we up the number of feats characters get and have skill points stack instead of taking the larger value, but still... I've told people this, and got yelled at. People are convinced that gestalts extremely powerful or is a good idea to put with non gestalts, and its a chore and hassle to tell em otherwise. This is just a complicated way to multiclass. Just demand that nobody play as gestalt or everyone play as gestalt.
ShinoAburame 12-04-06, 03:32 AM	I thought of a simple way to balance out Gestalt.. a) Spellcasting classes can only gestalt with other spellcasting classes, just as non-spellcasing classes can only gestalt with non-spellcasting classes. b) Clerics, druids, and psi warriors can only gestalt with npc classes. (Because these three classes are broken to begin with.)
Witch 12-04-06, 04:09 AM	a) Spellcasting classes can only gestalt with other spellcasting classes, just as non-spellcasing classes can only gestalt with non-spellcasting classes. This is actually a bad thing, in some cases, such as Duskblades. Duskblade + non-spellcasting = fine. Duskblade + spellcasting = auwtch. b) Clerics, druids, and psi warriors can only gestalt with npc classes. (Because these three classes are broken to begin with.) That's rather sad. They'll actually end up weaker due to this fact.
mkill 12-04-06, 10:57 AM	I've told people this, and got yelled at. People are convinced that gestalts extremely powerful or is a good idea to put with non gestalts, and its a chore and hassle to tell em otherwise. This is just a complicated way to multiclass. Just demand that nobody play as gestalt or everyone play as gestalt. Right. The point about gestalt is not so much about raw power but sheer versatility. In their area of specialty, a normal character can keep up with the gestalt to some degree. After all, they cast the same highest-level spells, they have about the same number of hp, same bab, same number of actions per round, same number of feats. The advantage of the gestalt is mainly that he can make up for the weaknesses of one class by adding a second one. It's harder for the DM to present a situation where the gestalt does not have the right tool. And that's why gestalt is for smaller parties.
mkill 12-04-06, 11:00 AM	I thought of a simple way to balance out Gestalt.. a) Spellcasting classes can only gestalt with other spellcasting classes, just as non-spellcasing classes can only gestalt with non-spellcasting classes. b) Clerics, druids, and psi warriors can only gestalt with npc classes. (Because these three classes are broken to begin with.) Right... So a Gestalt Fighter/Rogue is balanced against a fighter only because... Well, they obviously both don't have spellcasting! Great logic. Do you really DM or just post here out of boredom? The cleric idea is wonderful too... If you can't handle a single-class cleric you shouldn't start DMing gestalt maybe.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-04-06, 01:46 PM	If you think gestalt is too powerful, just make everybody gestalt with commoner.
trapspringer 12-04-06, 01:52 PM	I wonder if purely NPC gestalt would balance with player characters... Expert/Magewrite seems like a fair match for a rogue. I don't imagine Warrior/Adept would be more powerful than a gish build. I bet Aristocrat/Warrior would be a little touch-and go at early levels because he can fullfill both tank/melee guy and social roles, but then again so can expert/something. I bet that'd work.
DarkThoughts24 12-04-06, 05:43 PM	meh the fix of just applying an LA+2 to anyone playing gestalt makes people wanna play them but hate not being as good as the single class character. if they make it to high levels where they shine, the single class 2 levels higher is really still pretty on par (similar amount of feats, a bit higher on the spellcasting/skill levels) saves and BAB might differ, in most cases the point is moot
scienceman47 12-05-06, 05:47 AM	meh the fix of just applying an LA+2 to anyone playing gestalt makes people wanna play them but hate not being as good as the single class character. if they make it to high levels where they shine, the single class 2 levels higher is really still pretty on par (similar amount of feats, a bit higher on the spellcasting/skill levels) saves and BAB might differ, in most cases the point is moot I would not recommend the use of LA for gestalts. Consider, a lvl 20 character with 10lvls of mystic theurge and 5lvls of wizard and cleric versus a lvl 18 wizard cleric gestalt. HP wise, the gestalt should gain 17 HP, assuming 14 con. A gestalt will also cast as 18/18, versus 15/15. No difference skill point wise. saves have no clear winner; 4/1/4+1/1/4+3/3/7=8/5/15 over 11/6/11, base attack bonus will favor gestalt by 5 Including the itereve attack The gestalt will gain a total of 2 feats over the multiclass The gestalt will continue to gain uses of turn undead and familiar progression The winner is clear. I'll post further analysis for consideration (or rather, evidence in favor of not adding an LA)
Dæгơs 12-05-06, 11:47 PM	...Consider, a lvl 20 character with 10lvls of mystic theurge and 5lvls of wizard and cleric versus a lvl 18 wizard cleric gestalt. if you want to actually compare them, why not use a descent PrC, like True Necromancer, rather than one that is commonly acknowledged as somewhat weak? to wit: the necro. would have the following going for it: HP: avg 74 (gestalt=93, MT=63), all without con adjustments caster level: 17/17 (gestalt=18/18, MT=15/15) skills again the same saves: 6,6,15 (gestalt=12,6,12; MT=8,5,15) BAB: +10 (gestalt=15; MT=10) as far as class abilities goes, the TN is no slouch, and i would say they are about even.
Malkieri 12-06-06, 12:08 AM	To answer the OP, if everyone in your party doesn't Gestalt, no one should. There is no way to balance it with LA or any of this other stuff mentioned compared to a normal character. I see plenty of fussing and bumbling on the boards about Gestalt characters, obviously posted by people that do not understand/have never played the option. Gestalting is simple, it's easy, and it can add a lot of versatility to your PC's/BBEG. Something that is very important and must be remembered, is no matter if the PC's are gestalt or not, they still only get ONE action a round, that's it, just one. What gestalting adds is survivability to PC's. Because the PC's have a few more tricks, they can generally survive more contingent encounters. Even as a gestalt, they still can't safely take on CR's more than 2 or so above the party [and I've seen normal parties do that], because once you get past Party Level+2 CR's, you tend toward having enemies with one hit kills and/or abilities.
User5127 12-06-06, 12:13 AM	that i'd like to add they can take on more battles per day as well. you have to remeber that the normal 25% resouces doesn't apply any more since they have pretty much doubled that amount (except for HP) IIRC the can also take on 5 challenges a day. and thats at the +1 or +2 CR. the CR is variable depending on what kind of enemies they fight. ones that have heavy save effects for example would be +1 CR since the players will often times have at least 2 good saves if not all good saves. +2 CR critters are the ones that have tons of HP and what not. because they can take the beating that will be dished out. EDIT: the dm generally has to fine tune it when he first starts playing a gestalt campaign, but thats no different than a new dm trying to create challenges for his players. sometimes the CR isn't appropriate regardless of that it says. the dm should always judge the encounter correctly. ^_^ but gestalt is a great variant. I recommend players try nongestalt because the added book keeping can sometimes confuse newer players. but otherwise its great!
Keterys 12-06-06, 05:10 PM	About halfway down is one way to do a weakened gestalt that may be fine compared to normal classes (if anything, it may be weak), posted by TempusFujit, not the early stuff: http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm12.showMessage?topicID=5 889.topic Now, I personally am not a huge fan of having normal people, pseudo-gestalts and gestalts in the same party, but I do wonder if something like... Level 1: Gestalt as normal (1/1) Level 2: class A (2/1) Level 3: Gestalt as normal (3/2) Level 4: class B (3/3) Etc would work (you'd maybe need to do a little math explanation of how to deal with skill points, etc) give you 20 hit dice, etc, but the class progressions of 15/15... by carving out the very upper band of spellcasting, it might also make it less obvious to do caster/noncaster as a combo, and take out some of the more broken class/prestige class abilities and spells. Might be a more pleasant options for DMs to control. Wonder how it would compare ECL/CR-wise.
Larz_Fang 12-07-06, 04:36 AM	How about adding flaws without bonus feats to gestalt chars? And how about just letting them choose their good save between the two classes and balancing the Hit Dice to the average value of the two classes, exept that in such cases such as Fighter/Barbarian Gestalt it's the lower Hit Dice. Base Attack Bonus should be the better one. Btw, what is the case in 3-way Gestalts?