Weapon Finesse house rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weapon Finesse house rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gruuletheaxe
04-16-05, 07:18 PM I'm thinking about instituting the following house rule regarding Weapon Finesse:

Under the normal rules, light weapons do not get the 1.5 Strength bonus when wielded 2-handed. IMC, any weapon that benefits from the Weapon Finesse feat is considered to be light for the purposes of the feat (even if it fits into a larger size category) and therefore does not gain any additional Strength bonus when used 2-handed. If the weapon is larger than light, but can be used with Weapon Finesse, a character may opt to forgo Weapon Finesse for the round and use his Strength bonus to attacks instead of Dexterity. In this case, the weapon may get the additional Strength bonus to damage for being used 2-handed, dependant upon it’s physical size (i.e. a light sized weapon never gets the Strength bonus bump).

I have a few of my players are crying foul. Does this seem fair/balanced to folks? It's my effort to balance the various Finessible weapons (elven thinblade, spiked chain, elven courtblade, etc.) without disallowing them completely or nerfing them to uselessness.
HailSpork
04-16-05, 10:59 PM If you dropped this rule on them mid-campaign, then there's the problem of characters designed around finesse/power attack. I assume that when you count it as a light weapon for strength damage purposes, you're doing the same for power attack purposes.

Aside from that, I don't particularly see a problem with it.
gruuletheaxe
04-16-05, 11:07 PM If you dropped this rule on them mid-campaign, then there's the problem of characters designed around finesse/power attack.

Yeah, that would be unfair. No, this is a new campaign. I'm laying out all the house rules in advance so their are no misunderstandings.
I assume that when you count it as a light weapon for strength damage purposes, you're doing the same for power attack purposes.

Yes, while using Weapon Finesse, the weapon would be treated as light for everything, Power Attack included.

Thanks for the feedback.
gruuletheaxe
04-16-05, 11:28 PM The argument against the house rule so far is that most of the Finesse weapons are Exotic so you'd need to take EWP in addition to Weapon Finesse = 2 feat slots total. In other words, a fighter would be better served and more effective (i.e. do more damage) using a Greatsword and taking Power Attack + Weapon Focus instead. My thinking is that most of these weapons give you other benfits besides straight damage and that they are slightly imbalanced versus other weapons to begin with (spiked chain & thinblade come to mind). This is my attempt at balancing them without nerfing them.

I modeled the house rule after double weapons. They have the versatility to be used as a 2-handed weapon or be used as a Two-weapon Fighting system. They can be used with only the EWP feat as-is or, with Two-Weaponed Fighting feat for additional versatility. But the bonus damage they do is dependant upon which way they're used. You can't get the 2-handed Strength bonus when the weapon is used with TWF. And you don't get the extra attack when using the weapon 2-handed.

Admittedly, the house rule hinges on the idea that most of the sought-after Finesse weapons are a bit imbalanced. I think they are but it is certainly debatable.
lostone
04-17-05, 07:39 AM I think this house rule makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint. But then I also feel it is a bit unfair because two-weapon fighters often seem to get the short end of the stick compaired to two-handed weapon fighters. Personally I say if they want to spend feats on power attack and the twf tree, let them, there are worse things they could do.
gruuletheaxe
04-17-05, 12:06 PM I think this house rule makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint. But then I also feel it is a bit unfair because two-weapon fighters often seem to get the short end of the stick compaired to two-handed weapon fighters.

But the house rule doesn't penalize Two-Weapon Fighters, it actually strengthens their playability by taking away the 2-Handed Fighting benefits for the larger Finesse weapons making their use more balanced versus other weapons.

I don't want to exclude weapons like spiked chain and elven courtblade from my campaign but I also don't want them to be unbalanced and dominant. But I want to make sure I'm being fair with my players. That's why I'm looking for some outside opinions.
lostone
04-17-05, 12:38 PM Maybe I should have phrased that as "I have always felt that two-weapon fighters get the short end of the stick." I wasn't saying your house rule hurts them any, in fact I do believe it makes it more comparable to two-handed power attackers. I just don't know how balanced it is, I believe I saw a comparison somewhere at one time that showed that other than the amount of feats it sucks up, twf is balanced with thf as far as damage dealing capacity goes. TWF do less damage but get more attacks, yada yada yada.
gruuletheaxe
04-17-05, 04:18 PM Maybe I should have phrased that as "I have always felt that two-weapon fighters get the short end of the stick." I wasn't saying your house rule hurts them any, in fact I do believe it makes it more comparable to two-handed power attackers. I just don't know how balanced it is, I believe I saw a comparison somewhere at one time that showed that other than the amount of feats it sucks up, twf is balanced with thf as far as damage dealing capacity goes. TWF do less damage but get more attacks, yada yada yada.

sorry, i didn't mean to jump on you. i dig what you're saying although the TWF track is so darn feat intensive that it seems to lose a bit of playability vs. 2HF, IMHO. The house rule was mainly created to address what I perceive as an imbalance between "regular" martial weapons and some of the exotic Finesse weapons. I think it makes things a little more fair without making those weapons unplayable or "a bad choice".

thanks for the input.
Thelon Fairblade
04-18-05, 10:19 AM If you're seeing a lot of Exotic Weapons being selected by the characters, the problem isn't the existing feats or the weapons, but the players. And remember that the players are unlikely to find improved (or even replacement!) versions of their exotic weapons. In my last campaign, the elven bard had a thinblade... and at level 10 when the campaign ended, she had never found another thinblade, nor had she paid to upgrade her existing one (which thankfully for her never broke).

Personally, I don't see any problems for mixing Power Attack and Weapon Finesse. Joe Fighter with 18 STR and Power Attack is just as effective as J'oh F'ter the elven fighter with 18 DEX and Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. The high-dex low-str guy already has to spend an extra feat for weapon finesse, and then an extra feat for an exotic weapon....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gruuletheaxe 04-16-05, 07:18 PM	I'm thinking about instituting the following house rule regarding Weapon Finesse: Under the normal rules, light weapons do not get the 1.5 Strength bonus when wielded 2-handed. IMC, any weapon that benefits from the Weapon Finesse feat is considered to be light for the purposes of the feat (even if it fits into a larger size category) and therefore does not gain any additional Strength bonus when used 2-handed. If the weapon is larger than light, but can be used with Weapon Finesse, a character may opt to forgo Weapon Finesse for the round and use his Strength bonus to attacks instead of Dexterity. In this case, the weapon may get the additional Strength bonus to damage for being used 2-handed, dependant upon it’s physical size (i.e. a light sized weapon never gets the Strength bonus bump). I have a few of my players are crying foul. Does this seem fair/balanced to folks? It's my effort to balance the various Finessible weapons (elven thinblade, spiked chain, elven courtblade, etc.) without disallowing them completely or nerfing them to uselessness.
HailSpork 04-16-05, 10:59 PM	If you dropped this rule on them mid-campaign, then there's the problem of characters designed around finesse/power attack. I assume that when you count it as a light weapon for strength damage purposes, you're doing the same for power attack purposes. Aside from that, I don't particularly see a problem with it.
gruuletheaxe 04-16-05, 11:07 PM	If you dropped this rule on them mid-campaign, then there's the problem of characters designed around finesse/power attack. Yeah, that would be unfair. No, this is a new campaign. I'm laying out all the house rules in advance so their are no misunderstandings. I assume that when you count it as a light weapon for strength damage purposes, you're doing the same for power attack purposes. Yes, while using Weapon Finesse, the weapon would be treated as light for everything, Power Attack included. Thanks for the feedback.
gruuletheaxe 04-16-05, 11:28 PM	The argument against the house rule so far is that most of the Finesse weapons are Exotic so you'd need to take EWP in addition to Weapon Finesse = 2 feat slots total. In other words, a fighter would be better served and more effective (i.e. do more damage) using a Greatsword and taking Power Attack + Weapon Focus instead. My thinking is that most of these weapons give you other benfits besides straight damage and that they are slightly imbalanced versus other weapons to begin with (spiked chain & thinblade come to mind). This is my attempt at balancing them without nerfing them. I modeled the house rule after double weapons. They have the versatility to be used as a 2-handed weapon or be used as a Two-weapon Fighting system. They can be used with only the EWP feat as-is or, with Two-Weaponed Fighting feat for additional versatility. But the bonus damage they do is dependant upon which way they're used. You can't get the 2-handed Strength bonus when the weapon is used with TWF. And you don't get the extra attack when using the weapon 2-handed. Admittedly, the house rule hinges on the idea that most of the sought-after Finesse weapons are a bit imbalanced. I think they are but it is certainly debatable.
lostone 04-17-05, 07:39 AM	I think this house rule makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint. But then I also feel it is a bit unfair because two-weapon fighters often seem to get the short end of the stick compaired to two-handed weapon fighters. Personally I say if they want to spend feats on power attack and the twf tree, let them, there are worse things they could do.
gruuletheaxe 04-17-05, 12:06 PM	I think this house rule makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint. But then I also feel it is a bit unfair because two-weapon fighters often seem to get the short end of the stick compaired to two-handed weapon fighters. But the house rule doesn't penalize Two-Weapon Fighters, it actually strengthens their playability by taking away the 2-Handed Fighting benefits for the larger Finesse weapons making their use more balanced versus other weapons. I don't want to exclude weapons like spiked chain and elven courtblade from my campaign but I also don't want them to be unbalanced and dominant. But I want to make sure I'm being fair with my players. That's why I'm looking for some outside opinions.
lostone 04-17-05, 12:38 PM	Maybe I should have phrased that as "I have always felt that two-weapon fighters get the short end of the stick." I wasn't saying your house rule hurts them any, in fact I do believe it makes it more comparable to two-handed power attackers. I just don't know how balanced it is, I believe I saw a comparison somewhere at one time that showed that other than the amount of feats it sucks up, twf is balanced with thf as far as damage dealing capacity goes. TWF do less damage but get more attacks, yada yada yada.
gruuletheaxe 04-17-05, 04:18 PM	Maybe I should have phrased that as "I have always felt that two-weapon fighters get the short end of the stick." I wasn't saying your house rule hurts them any, in fact I do believe it makes it more comparable to two-handed power attackers. I just don't know how balanced it is, I believe I saw a comparison somewhere at one time that showed that other than the amount of feats it sucks up, twf is balanced with thf as far as damage dealing capacity goes. TWF do less damage but get more attacks, yada yada yada. sorry, i didn't mean to jump on you. i dig what you're saying although the TWF track is so darn feat intensive that it seems to lose a bit of playability vs. 2HF, IMHO. The house rule was mainly created to address what I perceive as an imbalance between "regular" martial weapons and some of the exotic Finesse weapons. I think it makes things a little more fair without making those weapons unplayable or "a bad choice". thanks for the input.
Thelon Fairblade 04-18-05, 10:19 AM	If you're seeing a lot of Exotic Weapons being selected by the characters, the problem isn't the existing feats or the weapons, but the players. And remember that the players are unlikely to find improved (or even replacement!) versions of their exotic weapons. In my last campaign, the elven bard had a thinblade... and at level 10 when the campaign ended, she had never found another thinblade, nor had she paid to upgrade her existing one (which thankfully for her never broke). Personally, I don't see any problems for mixing Power Attack and Weapon Finesse. Joe Fighter with 18 STR and Power Attack is just as effective as J'oh F'ter the elven fighter with 18 DEX and Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. The high-dex low-str guy already has to spend an extra feat for weapon finesse, and then an extra feat for an exotic weapon....