Weapon Group feats and multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weapon Group feats and multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MightyMightyThundarr
03-01-04, 11:39 AM This is really just a quick opinion question for other DMs:

If you were to use the Weapon Group feats rather than class weapon proficiencies, would you give a multiclassing character all of the bonus feats listed for that class?

I.E. If a character starts out as a fighter (basic weapons and 4 weapon groups), then picks up a level of barbarian, do you give them three free groups?

Personally, I am not sure how I'd handle this.. one part of me says this is fine, and the other part says that it would encourage players to pick up single levels of many classes just for extra feats. Anybody have opinions on how to run this?
Krelios
03-01-04, 12:05 PM I give my players the highest total out of the class levels they have, so a fighter classing into barbarian (b+4 to b+3) gets no new proficiencies, but a barbarian classing into fighter (b+3 to b+4) gains one new proficiency of his choice. Ultimately it's just like standard games where people class into fighter (or some other "all martial weapons" class) for the proficiencies and it's worked great so far.
Pagan priest
03-01-04, 02:31 PM It seems to me that a character going into what was an all martial weapons class before should gain something when doing it uner this rule. So FTR to BRB gains one new weapon group, BRB to FTR gains one group.

A better question is what to do with fighter to wizard multiclassing?
DarkTouch
03-01-04, 03:14 PM The only reason for gaining an extra group would be some sort of cultural change. A fighter joining a group of barbarians might want to get axe proficiency. Or Monk weapons, or druid weapons if going with those classes. If it is cultural like that... heck, make them pay for that choice buy the feat.

For balancing and all, I don't think the order you take your class should impact your power level (my biggest issue with the ELH).. so certainly 'catchup feats' would be allowed.. but not for just taking a new class.
Krelios
03-01-04, 03:25 PM It seems to me that a character going into what was an all martial weapons class before should gain something when doing it uner this rule. So FTR to BRB gains one new weapon group, BRB to FTR gains one group. They didn't under the old system... A fighter had "all martial weapons" and classing into barbarian granted nothing new... So why should it with the weapon groups? Being able to apply feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to a group of weapons is reward enough on its own.
Ricardo Martinez Garza
03-01-04, 03:48 PM I think what Krelios says makes sense, the only thing I would add is that if someone changes to a class with an class-specific weapon group he could gain it. For example, a Fighter could benefit some with a level of druid (Druid Weapons) or monk (Monk Weapons). Also, if the DM makes other class specifics weapon groups (i.e. specific to clerics of certain deity or barbarian's of an specific totem) he could also gain those when taking a level in said class.
MightyMightyThundarr
03-01-04, 04:06 PM Thanks Krelios, thats kind of what I was thinking of doing with it in my game. I just figured it was a good idea to ask around and see if other people had widely different opinions on it :)
The White Sorcerer
03-01-04, 04:09 PM Originally posted by Krelios
I give my players the highest total out of the class levels they have, so a fighter classing into barbarian (b+4 to b+3) gets no new proficiencies, but a barbarian classing into fighter (b+3 to b+4) gains one new proficiency of his choice.

This is how I do it, too.
Greyman
03-02-04, 06:10 PM Yeap. I like the fact that no single class gives proficiency in all weapon groups. The best you can do is be an elf fighter.

I never liked how it seemed preferable to take a single level of fighter to gain proficiency in all martial weapons (plus armors and shields, and a bonus feat too) rather than take a single martial weapon proficiency (say, to qualify for a prestige class). Allowing the lists to stack, rather than overlap, is too evokative of that.

Besides, after a point you don't need to master that many weapon groups. You can only use a few weapons at a time, after all.
Greyman
03-02-04, 06:14 PM Originally posted by Krelios:
Being able to apply feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to a group of weapons is reward enough on its own.And worth a lot more than just expanding the list of useable weapons. Also, if you have the Complete Warrior, look into how well the Weapon Style feats work with Weapon Groups.
Tam
03-06-04, 07:39 PM One radical option would be to allow growth in BAB only in those weapon that you have chosen for the class being leveled; thus a fighter/barbarian would be forced to chose the same weapons for full growth (she shouldn't be as proficient in weapon than a single class fighter !!!).
If you specifically chose the weapon proficiency feat, the BAB for that weapon would increase according to the class progression, whatever class you took.
You could also allow the improving of the weapon you acquired throu other class with the expense of skill points (at the rate of 2 sp/ 1 BAB). A barbarian/fighter would then be able to advance in all the weapon she acquired during her fighter time...
strenoth
03-06-04, 08:50 PM nuh-uh. there's already a penalty for non-proficiency, and BaB is proficiency independant.
Norhg
03-07-04, 02:49 PM Hmm, you should have seen this situation we had our last gaming session. Our merry band of adventurers had been invited to the grand marriage of Thomas the Great, high duke and prince of Eldar's country. At the stage of the Contest of Youths held the day before the blessed cermony the archery contest was about to start.

"Grrr, I pull the bow given to me" the player of my friend and Companion in arms Lambrac the Brute (7'4")stated whilst nearly breaking the bow in half.

Little did he know that his choice of weapon groups wouldn't let him hit a single target.

"Grrr" , and who doesn't feel with him?

Anyway... here is one question for you. How would you handle weapon group profiencies for a Outsider? I have both the Tulani and Hound Archons in mind.

Oh, and is there a system for gaining new profiencies at higher levels? Lambrac is fighter pro and it felt slightly unfair he would be as shi'ty as me, as I have a bab not even one of third of his, and am three levels lower than him (he is 6, I'm 3)... Feats might work but I want another option... Was thinking of letting each player choose a new profiency every time they got a new attack.

Does it sound well? Would it be balanced?
grazzt_the_dark
03-08-04, 03:48 AM I give my players the highest total out of the class levels they have, so a fighter classing into barbarian (b+4 to b+3) gets no new proficiencies, but a barbarian classing into fighter (b+3 to b+4) gains one new proficiency of his choice.

Good system, but could I recommend one small change? Make the class specific weapons groups (monk and druid) automatic when multiclassing into either of those classes. Just a thought.
Greyman
03-08-04, 04:42 AM Originally posted by Norhg
Anyway... here is one question for you. How would you handle weapon group profiencies for a Outsider? I have both the Tulani and Hound Archons in mind.Most other groups were proficient with either no groups, or just with whatever weapons they are described as using (typically only one melee and perhaps one ranged weapon).  But Outsiders, in general, were proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and also with any type of armor.  So I'd say give them Basic Weapons plus Three other groups - which makes them like the other martial classes, and generally better than other Types, but not as quite good as a Fighter.

Hound Archons, in particular, typically weild a greatsword.  So one of their weapon groups has got to be Heavy Blades.  To that I'd add Bows, and either Light Blades or Claw Weapons.Oh, and is there a system for gaining new profiencies at higher levels? Lambrac is fighter pro and it felt slightly unfair he would be as shi'ty as me, as I have a bab not even one of third of his, and am three levels lower than him (he is 6, I'm 3)... Feats might work but I want another option... Was thinking of letting each player choose a new profiency every time they got a new attack.

Does it sound well? Would it be balanced?Nope, not at all.  The weapon groups are feats, and put on the fighter's bonus feat list just for this reason.  Further, I think they are rather more balanced and a heck of a lot more valuable than the old martial weapon proficiencies (which were mostly worthless).  Which means that giving them away free is not balanced.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MightyMightyThundarr 03-01-04, 11:39 AM	This is really just a quick opinion question for other DMs: If you were to use the Weapon Group feats rather than class weapon proficiencies, would you give a multiclassing character all of the bonus feats listed for that class? I.E. If a character starts out as a fighter (basic weapons and 4 weapon groups), then picks up a level of barbarian, do you give them three free groups? Personally, I am not sure how I'd handle this.. one part of me says this is fine, and the other part says that it would encourage players to pick up single levels of many classes just for extra feats. Anybody have opinions on how to run this?
Krelios 03-01-04, 12:05 PM	I give my players the highest total out of the class levels they have, so a fighter classing into barbarian (b+4 to b+3) gets no new proficiencies, but a barbarian classing into fighter (b+3 to b+4) gains one new proficiency of his choice. Ultimately it's just like standard games where people class into fighter (or some other "all martial weapons" class) for the proficiencies and it's worked great so far.
Pagan priest 03-01-04, 02:31 PM	It seems to me that a character going into what was an all martial weapons class before should gain something when doing it uner this rule. So FTR to BRB gains one new weapon group, BRB to FTR gains one group. A better question is what to do with fighter to wizard multiclassing?
DarkTouch 03-01-04, 03:14 PM	The only reason for gaining an extra group would be some sort of cultural change. A fighter joining a group of barbarians might want to get axe proficiency. Or Monk weapons, or druid weapons if going with those classes. If it is cultural like that... heck, make them pay for that choice buy the feat. For balancing and all, I don't think the order you take your class should impact your power level (my biggest issue with the ELH).. so certainly 'catchup feats' would be allowed.. but not for just taking a new class.
Krelios 03-01-04, 03:25 PM	It seems to me that a character going into what was an all martial weapons class before should gain something when doing it uner this rule. So FTR to BRB gains one new weapon group, BRB to FTR gains one group. They didn't under the old system... A fighter had "all martial weapons" and classing into barbarian granted nothing new... So why should it with the weapon groups? Being able to apply feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to a group of weapons is reward enough on its own.
Ricardo Martinez Garza 03-01-04, 03:48 PM	I think what Krelios says makes sense, the only thing I would add is that if someone changes to a class with an class-specific weapon group he could gain it. For example, a Fighter could benefit some with a level of druid (Druid Weapons) or monk (Monk Weapons). Also, if the DM makes other class specifics weapon groups (i.e. specific to clerics of certain deity or barbarian's of an specific totem) he could also gain those when taking a level in said class.
MightyMightyThundarr 03-01-04, 04:06 PM	Thanks Krelios, thats kind of what I was thinking of doing with it in my game. I just figured it was a good idea to ask around and see if other people had widely different opinions on it :)
The White Sorcerer 03-01-04, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Krelios I give my players the highest total out of the class levels they have, so a fighter classing into barbarian (b+4 to b+3) gets no new proficiencies, but a barbarian classing into fighter (b+3 to b+4) gains one new proficiency of his choice. This is how I do it, too.
Greyman 03-02-04, 06:10 PM	Yeap. I like the fact that no single class gives proficiency in all weapon groups. The best you can do is be an elf fighter. I never liked how it seemed preferable to take a single level of fighter to gain proficiency in all martial weapons (plus armors and shields, and a bonus feat too) rather than take a single martial weapon proficiency (say, to qualify for a prestige class). Allowing the lists to stack, rather than overlap, is too evokative of that. Besides, after a point you don't need to master that many weapon groups. You can only use a few weapons at a time, after all.
Greyman 03-02-04, 06:14 PM	Originally posted by Krelios: Being able to apply feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to a group of weapons is reward enough on its own.And worth a lot more than just expanding the list of useable weapons. Also, if you have the Complete Warrior, look into how well the Weapon Style feats work with Weapon Groups.
Tam 03-06-04, 07:39 PM	One radical option would be to allow growth in BAB only in those weapon that you have chosen for the class being leveled; thus a fighter/barbarian would be forced to chose the same weapons for full growth (she shouldn't be as proficient in weapon than a single class fighter !!!). If you specifically chose the weapon proficiency feat, the BAB for that weapon would increase according to the class progression, whatever class you took. You could also allow the improving of the weapon you acquired throu other class with the expense of skill points (at the rate of 2 sp/ 1 BAB). A barbarian/fighter would then be able to advance in all the weapon she acquired during her fighter time...
strenoth 03-06-04, 08:50 PM	nuh-uh. there's already a penalty for non-proficiency, and BaB is proficiency independant.
Norhg 03-07-04, 02:49 PM	Hmm, you should have seen this situation we had our last gaming session. Our merry band of adventurers had been invited to the grand marriage of Thomas the Great, high duke and prince of Eldar's country. At the stage of the Contest of Youths held the day before the blessed cermony the archery contest was about to start. "Grrr, I pull the bow given to me" the player of my friend and Companion in arms Lambrac the Brute (7'4")stated whilst nearly breaking the bow in half. Little did he know that his choice of weapon groups wouldn't let him hit a single target. "Grrr" , and who doesn't feel with him? Anyway... here is one question for you. How would you handle weapon group profiencies for a Outsider? I have both the Tulani and Hound Archons in mind. Oh, and is there a system for gaining new profiencies at higher levels? Lambrac is fighter pro and it felt slightly unfair he would be as shi'ty as me, as I have a bab not even one of third of his, and am three levels lower than him (he is 6, I'm 3)... Feats might work but I want another option... Was thinking of letting each player choose a new profiency every time they got a new attack. Does it sound well? Would it be balanced?
grazzt_the_dark 03-08-04, 03:48 AM	I give my players the highest total out of the class levels they have, so a fighter classing into barbarian (b+4 to b+3) gets no new proficiencies, but a barbarian classing into fighter (b+3 to b+4) gains one new proficiency of his choice. Good system, but could I recommend one small change? Make the class specific weapons groups (monk and druid) automatic when multiclassing into either of those classes. Just a thought.
Greyman 03-08-04, 04:42 AM	Originally posted by Norhg Anyway... here is one question for you. How would you handle weapon group profiencies for a Outsider? I have both the Tulani and Hound Archons in mind.Most other groups were proficient with either no groups, or just with whatever weapons they are described as using (typically only one melee and perhaps one ranged weapon).  But Outsiders, in general, were proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and also with any type of armor.  So I'd say give them Basic Weapons plus Three other groups - which makes them like the other martial classes, and generally better than other Types, but not as quite good as a Fighter. Hound Archons, in particular, typically weild a greatsword.  So one of their weapon groups has got to be Heavy Blades.  To that I'd add Bows, and either Light Blades or Claw Weapons.Oh, and is there a system for gaining new profiencies at higher levels? Lambrac is fighter pro and it felt slightly unfair he would be as shi'ty as me, as I have a bab not even one of third of his, and am three levels lower than him (he is 6, I'm 3)... Feats might work but I want another option... Was thinking of letting each player choose a new profiency every time they got a new attack. Does it sound well? Would it be balanced?Nope, not at all.  The weapon groups are feats, and put on the fighter's bonus feat list just for this reason.  Further, I think they are rather more balanced and a heck of a lot more valuable than the old martial weapon proficiencies (which were mostly worthless).  Which means that giving them away free is not balanced.