Weapon Groups for Non-Core [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weapon Groups for Non-Core [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 10:44 AM Does anyone have any suggestion's for the amount of weapon group feats classes outside of core would get?

There are quite a few classes that I am not sure about. Specifically, the Tome of Battle classes. Should they get the same amount as a fighter? I am thinking that the Warblade should get the amount the Barbarian gets, the Swordsage should get the same as the Rogue, and the Crusader should get the same as the Paladin.

Also, some other classes come to mind. How many should the Factotem get? And the Archivist, should they get a Clerics amount, or a Wizards? How about the Scout? Or the Warmage?

There are simply too many new classes. LOL. There are the classes in the PHBII to consider, too. And, last but not least, what of the Dragonfire Adept?

Thanks for any help, everyone.
blade265
12-04-07, 11:39 AM Of the three ToB classes:
1) Warblade : the warblade will get 4 bonus feats at lvl's 5, 9, 13 and 17 + the standard feat all characters get.
2) Swordsage will only get the standard feats that every character will get.
3) Crusader will only get the standard feats every character gets.
The scout gets bonus feats at lvls 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 + standard feats.
The Warmage receives only the standard character feats.
The other I'm not sure about.
Standard feats all characters get at lvls 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 11:45 AM Sorry, I should have specified what I was asking, here.

In Unearthed Arcana, there is the weapon group option. With that option, the various classes can choose which weapon groups they know, rather than "all martial weapons, all simple, etc., etc." So, a fighter might know long blades, bows, and simple weapons. Which means that he does not have any profieciency with pole arms or spears, to name a few.

They list just how many each class gets. However, they only have the core classes listed, and none of the new ones, of course.

So, how many should each class start with?
nonsi
12-04-07, 11:45 AM While the Weapn-Groups concept is a vast inprovement over the simple/martial/exotic categorization, it's still quite lacking IMO.

There are too many weapons that are totally unwieldy IRL and most categories make no sense. Furthermore, there's poor rationale between the shape of a weapon and its functionality.

Here's an attampt I made a while back to improve 3.5e exiting weapon system:
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-767191
(haven't had a chance to test it yet)

See what you think of it.
BobbyMac
12-04-07, 04:41 PM The Crusader matchs the Paladin both in weapon and armor proficiencys and in flavor...

I would indeed use the suggested Paladin Weapon Group starting feats for a Crusader.

The Warblade weapon proficiencies match the Barbarians so go with that also.

The Swordsage's weapon proficiences match the Rogue's (except for shields) but the flavors don't.

In any case, the suggested Weapon Groups for the PH classes are very broad. For the Swordsage I would just go with the same Weapon Groups as the other two. Basic weapons, plus any other 3.
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 08:21 PM Nonsi: It appears to be set up for 3.0. I have never dealt with 3.0, so much of it is really an unknown quantity to me. If I was familiar with it, then I would probably have more of an idea about your fix. However, you have the weapon size and speed thing going, and the last time I dealt with that was in 2E.

BobbyMac: 3 plus basics, huh? That might be best.

What about those other classes? Archivist and Scout mostly, but some other ones are hard to nail down, too. Warlock, Dragon Shaman, and Dragonfire Adept are the prominent ones in my mind. The rest aren't too hard to figure out.

Beguiler as Rogue
Duskblade as Fighter
Knight as Fighter

However, the Scout and Archvist are two classes that greatly resemble two different core classes. The Archivist is similiar to the Wizard and the Cleric, and the Scout is similiar to the Rogue and the Ranger.

I don't know what core class the Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, and the Warlock are similiar to.
Yawar
12-14-07, 03:22 PM I would say, to keep things simple:

Dragon shaman = cleric
Dragon Fire adept = wizard
Warlock= sorcerer
Grizzled Gryphon
12-14-07, 07:48 PM I would say, to keep things simple:

Dragon shaman = cleric
Dragon Fire adept = wizard
Warlock= sorcerer

That works as well as anything. I was mostly curious about which one the Dragon Shaman should get, as it is primarily a combat class. I was either going to go with Cleric or Barbarian. For the Dragonfire Adept and Warlock, it isn't all that important for the most part as they don't really rely on weapons. I guess with Hideous Blow, what weapon a Warlock can or can't use is somewhat important. That should work fine, though.

Lets see, I would say
Knight = Fighter
Duskblade = Fighter
Beguiler= Rogue
Dragon Shaman = Cleric
Dragon Fire Adept = Wizard
Warlock = Sorcerer
Hexblade = ... Fighter(?)
Spelltheif = Rogue
Scout = Ranger
Favored Soul = Cleric
Wu Jen = Wizard
Archivist = Wizard
Dread Necromancer = Sorcerer
Shugenja = Cleric
Spirit Shaman = ??
Samurai = Fighter
Factotem = Bard(?)
Psion = Wizard
Wilder = Sorcerer
Psychic Warrior = Fighter
Soulknife = Cleric(?)
Ardent = Cleric
Divine Mind = Fighter
Lurk = Rogue
Erudite = Sorcerer
I think those are mostly right. I based most of the choices on the weapon proficiencies of the class. however, some could be changed as the flavor of the class more closely resembles another class, and perhaps the weapon group it has should reflect this.

Did I miss any? Does anyone disagree with any of the above?

I am sure I missed some, as I am going from memeory, here.
JimProfit
12-18-07, 02:48 PM I was going to make a pure psionics game, so each classes weaon group would have to greatly effect them as it would be one of the few ways to create game-balance.

Soulknife: Basic plus any other four.
(Might seem redundant, afterall, he has the mindblade right? Wrong. A soulknife introduced to an anti-psionic field is damn near useless. Now he's not)

Psychic Warrior*: Basic weapons plus any other two.
*Can choose weapon group (any) as a bonus feat.
(Weaker then you'd expect, but the psychic warrior is powerful enough.)

Psion: Basic weapons plus spears or crossbows.
(Like a sorcerer.)

Wilder: Basic weapons plus any other three.
(Stronger then you'd expected, for good reason, the wilder sucks.)

Ardent: Basic weapons plus any other two.
(No real explanation, I was just winging it)

Lurk: Basic weapons plus any other one.
(Same here)

Divine Mind: Basic weapons or crossbows.
(Psionic Clerics?! Clerics are broken, they could afford a poor weapon selection..)

Psychic-Rogue: Basic weapons plus any other two.
(This mind's eye class seems neither really powerful or really weak, so his weapon groups seems to keep him the most balanced.)

Erudite: None
(I'm using Dragon Magizine's version which makes it a seperate class from the psion, which seems rather broken enough.. with no weapons profficietcy he'll need to take feats to use anything.)
Grizzled Gryphon
12-19-07, 12:19 AM JimProfit You might want to look at the various threads on the Psionics Boards about the various psionic classes.

Divine Mind is crap in a hat. Seriously.

The Wilder is one of the most, if no the most, powerful of the psionic classes. Wild Surge is the key. For more explanation, check the psionic boards.

I would go this way for the psychic classes, personally;

Psion = Sorcerer
Wilder = Sorcerer
Psychic Warrior = Barbarian
Soulknife = Rogue
Lurk = Rogue
Ardent = Cleric
Divine Mind = Fighter (gives them a little more 'power', but not nearly enough to make them worth playing)
Erudite = Wizard

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 10:44 AM	Does anyone have any suggestion's for the amount of weapon group feats classes outside of core would get? There are quite a few classes that I am not sure about. Specifically, the Tome of Battle classes. Should they get the same amount as a fighter? I am thinking that the Warblade should get the amount the Barbarian gets, the Swordsage should get the same as the Rogue, and the Crusader should get the same as the Paladin. Also, some other classes come to mind. How many should the Factotem get? And the Archivist, should they get a Clerics amount, or a Wizards? How about the Scout? Or the Warmage? There are simply too many new classes. LOL. There are the classes in the PHBII to consider, too. And, last but not least, what of the Dragonfire Adept? Thanks for any help, everyone.
blade265 12-04-07, 11:39 AM	Of the three ToB classes: 1) Warblade : the warblade will get 4 bonus feats at lvl's 5, 9, 13 and 17 + the standard feat all characters get. 2) Swordsage will only get the standard feats that every character will get. 3) Crusader will only get the standard feats every character gets. The scout gets bonus feats at lvls 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 + standard feats. The Warmage receives only the standard character feats. The other I'm not sure about. Standard feats all characters get at lvls 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 11:45 AM	Sorry, I should have specified what I was asking, here. In Unearthed Arcana, there is the weapon group option. With that option, the various classes can choose which weapon groups they know, rather than "all martial weapons, all simple, etc., etc." So, a fighter might know long blades, bows, and simple weapons. Which means that he does not have any profieciency with pole arms or spears, to name a few. They list just how many each class gets. However, they only have the core classes listed, and none of the new ones, of course. So, how many should each class start with?
nonsi 12-04-07, 11:45 AM	While the Weapn-Groups concept is a vast inprovement over the simple/martial/exotic categorization, it's still quite lacking IMO. There are too many weapons that are totally unwieldy IRL and most categories make no sense. Furthermore, there's poor rationale between the shape of a weapon and its functionality. Here's an attampt I made a while back to improve 3.5e exiting weapon system: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-767191 (haven't had a chance to test it yet) See what you think of it.
BobbyMac 12-04-07, 04:41 PM	The Crusader matchs the Paladin both in weapon and armor proficiencys and in flavor... I would indeed use the suggested Paladin Weapon Group starting feats for a Crusader. The Warblade weapon proficiencies match the Barbarians so go with that also. The Swordsage's weapon proficiences match the Rogue's (except for shields) but the flavors don't. In any case, the suggested Weapon Groups for the PH classes are very broad. For the Swordsage I would just go with the same Weapon Groups as the other two. Basic weapons, plus any other 3.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 08:21 PM	Nonsi: It appears to be set up for 3.0. I have never dealt with 3.0, so much of it is really an unknown quantity to me. If I was familiar with it, then I would probably have more of an idea about your fix. However, you have the weapon size and speed thing going, and the last time I dealt with that was in 2E. BobbyMac: 3 plus basics, huh? That might be best. What about those other classes? Archivist and Scout mostly, but some other ones are hard to nail down, too. Warlock, Dragon Shaman, and Dragonfire Adept are the prominent ones in my mind. The rest aren't too hard to figure out. Beguiler as Rogue Duskblade as Fighter Knight as Fighter However, the Scout and Archvist are two classes that greatly resemble two different core classes. The Archivist is similiar to the Wizard and the Cleric, and the Scout is similiar to the Rogue and the Ranger. I don't know what core class the Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, and the Warlock are similiar to.
Yawar 12-14-07, 03:22 PM	I would say, to keep things simple: Dragon shaman = cleric Dragon Fire adept = wizard Warlock= sorcerer
Grizzled Gryphon 12-14-07, 07:48 PM	I would say, to keep things simple: Dragon shaman = cleric Dragon Fire adept = wizard Warlock= sorcerer That works as well as anything. I was mostly curious about which one the Dragon Shaman should get, as it is primarily a combat class. I was either going to go with Cleric or Barbarian. For the Dragonfire Adept and Warlock, it isn't all that important for the most part as they don't really rely on weapons. I guess with Hideous Blow, what weapon a Warlock can or can't use is somewhat important. That should work fine, though. Lets see, I would say Knight = Fighter Duskblade = Fighter Beguiler= Rogue Dragon Shaman = Cleric Dragon Fire Adept = Wizard Warlock = Sorcerer Hexblade = ... Fighter(?) Spelltheif = Rogue Scout = Ranger Favored Soul = Cleric Wu Jen = Wizard Archivist = Wizard Dread Necromancer = Sorcerer Shugenja = Cleric Spirit Shaman = ?? Samurai = Fighter Factotem = Bard(?) Psion = Wizard Wilder = Sorcerer Psychic Warrior = Fighter Soulknife = Cleric(?) Ardent = Cleric Divine Mind = Fighter Lurk = Rogue Erudite = Sorcerer I think those are mostly right. I based most of the choices on the weapon proficiencies of the class. however, some could be changed as the flavor of the class more closely resembles another class, and perhaps the weapon group it has should reflect this. Did I miss any? Does anyone disagree with any of the above? I am sure I missed some, as I am going from memeory, here.
JimProfit 12-18-07, 02:48 PM	I was going to make a pure psionics game, so each classes weaon group would have to greatly effect them as it would be one of the few ways to create game-balance. Soulknife: Basic plus any other four. (Might seem redundant, afterall, he has the mindblade right? Wrong. A soulknife introduced to an anti-psionic field is damn near useless. Now he's not) Psychic Warrior: Basic weapons plus any other two. Can choose weapon group (any) as a bonus feat. (Weaker then you'd expect, but the psychic warrior is powerful enough.) Psion: Basic weapons plus spears or crossbows. (Like a sorcerer.) Wilder: Basic weapons plus any other three. (Stronger then you'd expected, for good reason, the wilder sucks.) Ardent: Basic weapons plus any other two. (No real explanation, I was just winging it) Lurk: Basic weapons plus any other one. (Same here) Divine Mind: Basic weapons or crossbows. (Psionic Clerics?! Clerics are broken, they could afford a poor weapon selection..) Psychic-Rogue: Basic weapons plus any other two. (This mind's eye class seems neither really powerful or really weak, so his weapon groups seems to keep him the most balanced.) Erudite: None (I'm using Dragon Magizine's version which makes it a seperate class from the psion, which seems rather broken enough.. with no weapons profficietcy he'll need to take feats to use anything.)
Grizzled Gryphon 12-19-07, 12:19 AM	JimProfit You might want to look at the various threads on the Psionics Boards about the various psionic classes. Divine Mind is crap in a hat. Seriously. The Wilder is one of the most, if no the most, powerful of the psionic classes. Wild Surge is the key. For more explanation, check the psionic boards. I would go this way for the psychic classes, personally; Psion = Sorcerer Wilder = Sorcerer Psychic Warrior = Barbarian Soulknife = Rogue Lurk = Rogue Ardent = Cleric Divine Mind = Fighter (gives them a little more 'power', but not nearly enough to make them worth playing) Erudite = Wizard