Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 10-15-06, 04:19 AM	Ever since I saw the weapon proficiency group system in Unearthed Arcana (which made me remember the groups in Baldur's Gate), I have desired to use them. But a thought has recently come to my mind: What matters more to how a weapon is used, the weapon's relative size (longsword vs. greatsword), or the weapon's construction (warhammer vs. longsword). Currently, I have weapons grouped with similar weapons: straight swords are all together, curved swords are all together, hammers and picks are together, polearms are together. I've even maintained a distinction between simple and martials (for example, the clubs group, including the club, maces, and staff, is a required proficiency to learn hammers, flails, or axes). But, as I've never used anything more than a staff and a foil/epee, I've been wondering if grouping weapons by sizes would be a more accurate set up. A greatsword is used differently than a longsword, and the greatsword is possibly more similar to other two-handed weapons than it is to a longsword. I'm seeking an amount of realism, but more importantly balance. What do you think is best?
Relic 10-15-06, 11:44 AM	I equate it to college... if you go to school for Law you learn about all manners of Law (corporate, civil, environmental, etc). You can focus in one aspect of Law with further education but your general education encompasses all the basics of Law. Thus, if you had Weapon Group: Axes, you were trained in all the basic combat weapons for axes from the great axe to the hand axe to the battle axe. If you want to specialize then that is represented by Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and further "education." Exotic Weapons and weapons that require learning multiple combat forms (i.e. using a dwarven axe both one-handed and two-handed, for example) still require the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for training. Here's the groups and the associated weapons that I use, which is a little different from Unearthed Arcana's weapon groups: Axes: hand axe, battle axe, great axe, dwarven buckler-axe, hero lei kwei axe, and dwarven axe (two-handed). Basic: brass knuckles, gauntlet, club, dagger, iron staff, jambiya, quarterstaff, stiletto, and unarmed strike. Bows: composite long bow, composite short bow, long bow, and short bow. Claw Weapons: punching dagger, spiked armor, and spiked gauntlet. Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and repeating crossbow. Flails: heavy flail, light flail, and two-section staff. Large Blades: claymore sword, executioner sword, falchion, flamberge sword, flax sword, great scimitar, and great sword. Maces & Clubs: club, great club, heavy mace, iron staff, light mace, light shield, morningstar, quarterstaff, sap, spiked light shield, spiked club, tetsubo club, and war mace (two-handed). Medium Blades: bastard sword (two-handed), broad sword, butterfly sword, long sword, machete, sapara sword, and scimitar. Picks & Hammers: dwarven battlehammer (two-handed), dire pick (two-handed), hammer-pick, heavy pick, kama, light hammer, light pick, lucerne hammer, scythe, and warhammer. Polearms: awl pike, bec de corbin, glaive, guisarm, halberd, kwan dao (Asian halberd), lucerne hammer, maul, nagimaki, naginata, partisan, and ranseur. Slings & Thrown Weapons: dart, sling, and thrown dagger. Small Blades: cutlass, dao sword, jitte, main-gauche dagger, push knife, rapier, saber, sai, scholar's sword (tai chi sword), siangham, sickle, short sword, and tamo dagger. Spears & Lances: harpoon, javelin, lance, long spear, pilum, trident, and war fork (two-handed).
Xavon 10-15-06, 12:15 PM	Construction is more important than size. The way a longsword and greatsword are used are similar. Longsword and warhammer, not so much. Smashing shields or trying to jar your opponent are natural for a warhammer, but inadvisable with a sword. Similarly, most warhammers don't have a stabbing point, so that occasionable stab to mix things up you do with a long blade will just get you in trouble. And trying the land a light blow and then draw/cut into your opponent? That will just get you laughed at.
Xeviat-DM 10-15-06, 03:00 PM	Cool; any others?
sigma999 10-15-06, 05:48 PM	Remember sword-axes from AD&D ha Where would you place "sword-axes"? Would they be included in both "sword" and "axe" groups or would a character require both proficiencies to use one? This isn't an invitation to argue, I actually wholeheartedly support weapon groups over a blunt SIMPLE WEAPON PROFICIENCY feat. How droll! After all, would a level 1 Fighter really have training in every single weapon during their few years in whatever academy? Surely they missed something. And yet in D&D the second they find a new weapon, they can use it with full expertise (disregarding those "exotic" ones, which by some innate property are simply too alien to master?)
Xeviat-DM 10-15-06, 07:11 PM	These are my weapon groups, if anyone's interested: Armor Proficiency (light) - Armor Proficiency (medium) -- Armor Proficiency (heavy) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Individual Weapon; must be proficient with related martial group) Shield Proficiency - Tower Shield Proficiency Simple Weapon Proficiency (claws) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (weaponized armor) Simple Weapon Proficiency (crossbows) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (firearms) Simple Weapon Proficiency (maces) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (axes) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (flails) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (hammers and picks) Simple Weapon Proficiency (blades) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (sabers) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (swords) Simple Weapon Proficiency (spears) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (polearms) Simple Weapon Proficiency (thrown weapons) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (thrown weapons) Simple Weapon Proficiency (short bows) - Martial Weapon Proficiency (long bows) And here are which weapons fall into each group: Simple Basic (cannot take weapon group specific feats for the basic weapon category): Club, dagger, quarterstaff Claws and Fists: Punching dagger (Katar), spiked gauntlet Crossbows: Hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow Maces: Club, light mace, heavy mace, greatclub, quarterstaff, sai, sap, morningstar Simple Blades: Sickle (Kama), Machete, dagger Spears: Javelin, longspear, shortspear, trident, light spear (siangham) Thrown Weapons: Dart, shuriken, sling Short Bows: bow, composite bow Martial Axes: Handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe, waraxe (2-h) Sabers: Falchion, war saber (katana; 2-h), kukri, scimitar, rapier Long Bows: longbow, composite longbow Flails and Chains: Flail, heavy flail, light flail (nunchaku), whip Swords: Bastard sword (2-h) , greatsword, longsword, short sword Picks and Hammers: Heavy pick, light hammer, light pick, scythe, warhammer Polearms: Glaive, guisarm, halberd, ranseur, lance, trident Hurled Weapons: Bolas, Net Weaponized Armor: Armor Spikes, Shield Spikes Exotic (taken individually) Axes: Double axe, Waraxe (1-h) Sabers: War saber (1-h; Katana) Flails: Dire flail, Spiked Chain Swords: Two-bladed sword, Bastard Sword (1-h) Picks and Hammers: Hooked hammer Polearms: Urgrosh
058 10-15-06, 07:32 PM	Actually, a weapon like a Greatsword or a Bastard sword (which is actually just a term for a long longsword) would be more bludgeoning than slashing (their edges weren't the sharpest, but those were some massive sheets of metal), so perhaps size is better. . . . However, if I was to re-group weapon profficiency, I would probably arrange all of the similarly used and sized together--longswords and shortswords, greatswords and bastard swords, battle-axes and hand-axes, etc. etc. . . but I'm also happy with the current system, anyway.