Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pathos 12-14-06, 02:00 PM	Good day... Do you remember the old days of 2nd edition and weapon speed factors? Well, here is a pet project I have been twiddling around with, to attempt to bring this type or rule into a game. So... feel free tocomment, be brutally honest, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Weapon Speed Factor (SF) The weapon speed factor represents how fast a weapon is to wield in combat, as reflected as a penalty to your initiative. Your standing within the initiative line up can be modified through the normal options (hold action, refocus etc.), being disarmed or switching to a different weapon. Combat: 1) Roll initiative as usual, with a further modifier as dictated by the weapon(s) speed factor (SF) you have ready when combat begins. a) If the character is dual wielding weapons, use the speed factor of the weapon in your primary hand. b) If you are using a shield, use the slowest speed factor of the two. As a heavy, bulky shield tends to undo the benefits of using a fast weapon. c) If you have no weapon or shield in hand when combat starts (unarmed), you have a SF of 0 until you draw a weapon. This determines your initiative for the first round of combat. 2) Initiative, in the event of a tie... a) First, the person with the lowest speed factor goes first (if a caster has a weapon in hand, use that SF. Otherwise the SF is 0). b) Second, go by the person who has the highest initiative modifier (figuring in feats, flaws etc.). c) Third, the person with the highest Dex goes first. d) If all of the above still has not resolved this, use any random method agreed upon to break the tie. 3) Initiative beyond the first round. Provided the character uses the same weapon (or one of the same SF value), casts a spell of that same SF value, or engage in an action that has a SF of 0, they retain their initiative for the following round. 4) Changing weapons during combat. Dropping/sheathing and drawing a new weapon works the same as the current rules state, with the following exception: a) When a weapon is switched out, a character may still attack as normal in that round. However, his initiative is modified, according to the difference in the speed factor of the new weapon used, at the beginning of the next round. So, if a character was using a weapon with a SF of –3 and then switched to one with a SF of –1, at the beginning of the next round, his initiative would improve by 2 points, as he is now using a quicker weapon than what he started with. (Figure any resulting ties as per above). b) For shields, the same rule applies. 5) Spell casters follow the same rules as above, for switching out weapons, when either casting their spells of engaging in a melee attack. For the SF values of spell casting, see Casting Spells below. 6) If you are disarmed, stunned or otherwise disabled for a round or more, that point in the combat cycle becomes your new default initiative place. Should you then draw or pick up a new weapon from there, your initiative is then determined off of that number the next round, just as if your were starting a new combat as an unarmed combatant. Miscellaneous Actions and SF Any miscellaneous action that requires a standard or move equivalent action to accomplish, such as activate a magic item or initiate a special combat maneuver, has a SF of 0. Maintaining the characters place in initiative the next round, as it replaces their normal attack routine. Spells & Special Abilities and the Speed Factor: The use of spell-like, extraordinary and supernatural abilities are not affected by the speed factor and as such, have a SF of 0. Spells and psionic powers, however, are affected by a speed factor. Casting Spells: For casters (including psionic characters), spells of 0 level or those used as a free, swift or immediate action have a SF of 0. Spells and powers beyond this have a SF depending on their level, as follows: 1st-2nd level:.... -1 3rd-4th level:.... -2 5th-6th level:.... -3 7th-8th level:.... -4 9th level: ...........-5 The above SF are assuming a spell with a single component (V, M/F/XP, S). Spells incur an additional 1 point penalty for each additional component required in casting the spell. For example a fireball spell would have a SF of –4, as it has a verbal, somatic, and material component. Warlocks: While warlocks do make use of spell-like abilities, theirs differ from the norm in that they require a somatic component to activate them, resulting in a SF of –1 to make use of them, including their eldritch blast. When a warlock modifies his eldritch blast, he incurs a 1 point SF penalty for each eldritch essence or blast shape invocation he applies to it. For example, a plain eldritch blast would have a SF of –1, while one with the eldritch spear blast shape, or sickening blast eldritch essence, applied to it would have a SF of –2. If both were applied to the blast, it would have a –3 SF. Hold Action, Delay Action and Refocus: These actions remain unchanged in how they affect initiative. It is only when a character is disarmed, changes to a weapon of a different speed factor or a caster using a higher level spell, that he may not be equipped to cast effectively, that affects ones place in initiative. General Guidelines for Weapon Speed Factors: The following guidelines were used for coming up with the SF for the weapons found in the PHB. 1) Weight, the heavier it is, the slower it is to wield. up to 1 lb.:....... –1 2 to 4 lbs.:....... –2 5 to 7 lbs.:....... –3 8 to 10 lbs.:..... –4 11+ lbs.:.......... –5 2) Light weapons have their SF reduced by 1. a) Rapier, whip and spiked chain, as well as any other weapons that qualify for use with the Weapon Finesse feat, also benefits from this reduction in SF. 3) Two-handed weapons, including bows and crossbows (not hand crossbow), have their SF increased by 1. a) Bastard swords have a dual listing. The first is for being wielded one handed, the second number is for when it is being used as a two-handed weapon. b) A net is treated as a two handed weapon when throwing it. After the initial throw and it unfurls, it becomes more cumbersome to use and incurs an additional 2 point reduction in SF. 4) Flails have a 1 point increase to their SF due to their shifting weight of the weapon at the end of the chain. 5) Melee weapons with reach have their SF increased by 1. a) Whip has an increase of 2 on its SF, due to its increased range of reach. 6) Shields, due to their primarily defensive nature and how they are used and equipped, they are treated as if their weight is 5 lbs less when determining their SF. a) Tower shields, because to their cumbersome nature, suffer a 1 point increase on their SF. b) Bucklers and light shields gain a 1 point reduction in SF, as a light weapon. Natural Weapons and Speed Factor: Creatures that make use of natural attacks, normally have a SF of 0, provided they have only a single type of natural attack (claw or bite for example). If the creature has multiple types of attacks, such as a claw and a bite attack, the SF increases by 1, for each additional natural attack option they have beyond the first, regardless of how many times they may use it in a round. It is the different types of attacks that matters here. For example, a bear may make a claw and bite attack, it would then have a SF of -1. While a large dragon may make a claw, bite, wing buffet and a tail slap attack in a single round, with a SF of –3. Special attacks, such as tail sweep, rake and such, are not counted in this, as they are either triggered (rake) or take the place of a normal attack routine (tail sweep as a standard action). Creatures that may be able to make use of natural attacks and a weapon, use the slower SF of the two. Size and Speed Factor: Size may also play a part in a creatures or weapons SF. Creatures of different sizes, beyond medium, incur the following bonuses or penalties to the SF of their natural weapons: Larger than Medium: Large...........-0 Huge............-1 Gargantuan....-2 Colossal........-3 Smaller than Medium: Small............+0 Tiny.............+1 Diminutive......+2 Fine..............+3 (this bonus may not result in a positive SF) If you attempt to use a weapon that is ill suited to your size, you suffer an additional 2 point penalty to the weapons SF per size category difference. Otherwise, us the SF listed in the tables below if the weapon is of appropriate size for you. Simple Weapons.... (SF) Unarmed Attacks Gauntlet.....................0 Natural Weapons..........0 Unarmed strike.............0 Light Weapons Dagger.......................0 Dagger, punching.........0 Gauntlet, spiked...........0 Mace, light.................-1 Sickle........................-1 One-Handed Melee Weapons Club..........................-1 Mace, heavy..............-4 Morningstar................-3 Shortspear.................-2 Two-Handed Melee Weapons Longspear..................-6 Quarterstaff...............-3 Spear........................-4 Ranged Weapons Crossbow, heavy.........-4 Crossbow, light............-2 Dart...........................0 Javelin.......................-1 Sling...........................0 Martial Weapons.... (SF) Light Weapons Axe, throwing..............-1 Hammer, light...............-1 Handaxe......................-1 Kukri...........................-1 Pick, light....................-1 Sap............................-1 Sword, short................-1 One-handed Melee Weapons Battleaxe.....................-3 Flail............................-4 Longsword....................-2 Pick, heavy...................-3 Rapier..........................-1 Scimitar........................-2 Trident.........................-2 Warhammer...................-3 Two-Handed Melee Weapons Falchion........................-5 Glaive...........................-6 Greataxe.......................-6 Greatclub.......................-5 Flail, heavy.....................-6 Greatsword.....................-5 Guisarme........................-7 Halberd..........................-6 Lance............................-6 Ranseur..........................-7 Scythe...........................-5 Ranged Weapons Longbow.........................-3 Longbow, Composite..........-3 Shortbow........................-3 Shortbow, Composite ........-3 Exotic Weapons.... (SF) Light Weapons Kama............................-1 Nunchaku......................-1 Sai................................0 Siangham........................0 One-Handed Melee Weapons Sword, bastard..............-3 (-4) Waraxe, dwarven............-4 Whip.............................-3 Two-Handed Melee Weapons Axe, orc double................-6 Chain, spiked...................-5 Flail, dire.........................-6 Hammer, gnome hooked......-4 Sword, two-bladed............-5 Urgrosh, dwarven...............-6 Ranged Weapons Bolas.................................-1 Crossbow, hand ..................-1 Crossbow, repeating heavy ..-6 Crossbow, repeating light......-4 Net..................................-1 (-3) Shuriken..............................0 Shields.... (SF) Buckler..............................0 Shield, light wooden.............0 Shield, light steel................-1 Shield, heavy wooden..........-3 Shield, heavy steel..............-4 Shield, tower......................-6 Feats and Speed Factors: To help offset the penalties of SF, characters may take the Improved Initiative feat. Other feats available should also be modified as follows, to incorporate how they affect a characters SF. Keep in mind, reductions to SF from any source may not reduce a SF to a positive value. 1) Weapon Focus In addition to the to-hit bonus provided, this feat also reduces the SF for that particular weapon by 1 point. With Greater Weapon Focus, this bonus increases to a 2 point SF reduction. 2) Spell Focus Casters using spells from their chosen school, also have the SF reduced by 1 point when casting spells from these schools. With Greater Spell Focus, this bonus increases to a 2 point SF reduction.. 3) Improved Shield Bash While you have a shield equipped, treat the SF as if it were one category lighter (for example, a tower shield would be treated as a heavy steel shield). 4) Silent or Still Spell These metamagic feats reduce the SF of a modified spell by 1 point each, as these components have been removed from the spell. This bonus applies to the “Sudden” versions of these feats as well. 5) Eschew Materials This feat reduces the SF of spells affected by this feat by 1 point. Spells still requiring an XP loss or focus still have the 1 point penalty to their SF. Special Materials and SF Weapons and shields made with Darkwood or Mithral, in addition to their other benefits, also have their SF reduced by 1 point.
e7way 12-14-06, 02:55 PM	i think you should turn the speed factor numbers around and each class of weapons give you a different speed factor and the smaller the weapon the better your Initiative roll would be. All two handed weapons give you 0 speed factor due to thier bulky nature. a weapon like a dagger should give you a +3 to your intitive roll if your not using an off handed weapon, if you are using a dagger in each hand you only get a +2 because of making sure you are perfectly balanced. medium weapons should get you a +1 to initiative roll. However if you are focused or specialized in the a paticular weapon then you could get a bonus due to your familiarity with the weapon. Or if your not proficient in the weapon at all then maybe you could get a -1 to your inti. roll maybe that would make things a little more simple??? I like the over all idea though. im sure all these young pups will hate it cause they know nothing different :D like we old schoolers LOL. addition is always easier than subtraction :)
Ranger REG 12-14-06, 04:38 PM	Good day... Do you remember the old days of 2nd edition and weapon speed factors? *rocking his rocking chair* I remember the old days of weapon speed factor which dates back EARLIER than 2nd Edition, my child. I don't recall them being good. The problem with weapon speed factor is that many view that smaller weapons make them faster and should strike first. If that is the case, why did weapon technology evolves from dagger to longsword to greatsword? Reach. Not the "reach weapon" defined by 3e, but reach as in the longsword has a longer reach than a dagger, therefore longsword should strike before the dagger. The same applies to spear. But weapon reach have never been taken into account in the weapon speed factor rule. Never. :nonono:
strenoth 12-14-06, 05:45 PM	weapon reach vs speed comes close enough to evening out that it's not worht the effort to design a system to account for the minute details, nor is it worth the time it eats up in combat.
CroBob 12-15-06, 04:22 AM	Honestly, speed factors are a bunch of bollocks. someone holding a dagger doesn't get to hit you first just because you have a great axe. There are many factors to combat, and more massive weapons (assuming you can actually use them as they're supposed to be used) will not slow you down. Weapon speed assumes pauses in combat where one person attacks, then the other does, when that's simply not how combat works in the real world. Real combat is an exchange of faints, attacks, and parries, all occuring simultaniously. Basically, there is no reason for the rule, unless you can think of a reason to imagine your D&D characters actually standing around inbetween swings and waiting for their next turn to start swinging again, instead of actively battling. The system makes absolutely no sense.
Pathos 12-15-06, 05:41 AM	First... thanks guys for your replys, they're greatly appreciated. :bow: For a little background as to why I started playing with this idea. The group I play D&D with switch off DM duties, and the guy who will be taking up the reigns, for the next campaign, seems to be leaning quite strongly towards adding this variant rule to the game (where I won't even get into his interpretation of the rule :blink: ). So, I started to have the idea go through my head... If a group wanted this type of rule, how would I handle it? All two handed weapons give you 0 speed factor due to thier bulky nature. a weapon like a dagger should give you a +3 to your intitive roll if your not using an off handed weapon, if you are using a dagger in each hand you only get a +2 because of making sure you are perfectly balanced. medium weapons should get you a +1 to initiative roll.Well, I went with negative numbers becuase, as I see it, your Dex already affects how fast you react in combat. The SF here is a modification to your reaction time in combat, countering your Dex based reaction time. Another reason for a lack of positive SF numbers is, a weapon isn't going to be able to allow you to react faster, should you have a initiative penalty, due to a bad Dex score. Ranger REG, strenoth & CroBob, The argument of reach vs. speed is also one that trampled through my head, including in my initial arguments with my fellow DM... "Sure a dagger may be fast, but you stll have to get past the buiness end of your opponents longsword." So, I started to look at how the current 3.5 rules have weapon reach handled. Regardles if you have a 6' two-handed sword or a 15" dagger, you have, as a medium or small creature, a 5' reach. Which brings us back down to the weight of the weapon as a defining factor. Does Joe-fighter decide to use a fast, low damage shortsword, or does he go for the more cumbersome high damage two-hander? The rule-set already has us defined as having a 5' reach, now, how do I wanna use that reach? Quickly or slowly?
Ranger REG 12-16-06, 05:23 AM	So, I started to look at how the current 3.5 rules have weapon reach handled. Only they don't. The only time weapon reach -- as opposed to reach weapon -- is applied in the 3.5e ruleset is the ability to use light weapon in tight-quarter combat (i.e., grappling range), where one-handed and two-handed weapons are ineffective.
Pathos 12-16-06, 11:56 AM	Another good point Reg, and I have no intention of debating the very old argument of reach vs. speed. But, what I'm looking for here is feedback on my origional post, for those who may interested in making use of a variant speed factor rule.
Ranger REG 12-17-06, 02:48 AM	Another good point Reg, and I have no intention of debating the very old argument of reach vs. speed. Of course not, because every weapon speed factor rules I've read ignore weapon reach, in order to advocate smaller "allegedly fast" weapons over big weapons. :bored:
fatal error 12-17-06, 08:12 AM	Why are double weapons slow?
IceFractal 12-18-06, 01:18 AM	While I'm not against the concept of weapon speed factor, I think that the way they're usually implemented isn't all that accurate, for the reasons mentioned (reach vs speed). Since reach is abstract, hit points are abstract, and even the very concept of the attack roll is abstract, it would make sense that weapon speed rules should be abstract as well. That is, weapon speed should be an independant factor, and should modify the other factors like damage and crit range. Most weapons would have a speed factor of +0. Some particularly fast ones, such as daggers and unarmed strikes, would have a positive factor (and should have lower damage to compensate). Others could have a negative speed factor in exchange for better damage/criticals. Speed would represent not just how fast the weapon can be moved, but also its reach and flexibility in wielding - basically, how much of an advantage it gives to the wielder. Note that a large weapon could have a positive speed modifier if, for instance, it had greater than average reach and was designed to strike opponents from multiple angles.
Sleepwalker13666 12-18-06, 04:02 AM	In the Everquest D20 system they did bring back weapon speed, but it was very broken, and I would'nt reccomend using thier variation, but they do have one. As far as reach being accounted for for weapon speed I would say thats where AoO come into play, engaging someone with a reach weapon generally means first getting hit by the reach weapon. While weapons larger than a dagger may not have a reach score (like the short sword), they still do have more reach than a dagger, but the dagger is a lighter weapon, it is easier to respond with a knife than a sword (having had practive with both weapons I can say this with confidence). Exceptions are curved blades such as kukris, gurthkas, scimitars because they can strike from shorter distances, unlike a shortsword which does have to be brought to bear, it may not have to be hiked over your head like a greatsword, but in general a sword sword is harder to weild quickly than a knife, and those fractional secounds spent positioning a weapon for strike are what gives it a lower speed factor. I myself do not wish to use speed factor rules, but for a group that wishes to use them this is a good article.
CroBob 12-18-06, 08:45 PM	Everyone's making a big deal about reach. It's not even that, it's more how contiguous combat is. A battle axe and long sword have about the same reach, but the axe is still slower. Much. That does not give the person with the long sword an inate advantage, though. It's all use and skill, which is what we have initiative modifiers and base attack bonus for.
Ranger REG 12-18-06, 11:57 PM	Everyone's making a big deal about reach. It's not even that, it's more how contiguous combat is. A battle axe and long sword have about the same reach, but the axe is still slower. Says who? An unproficient axe-wielder or a master axe-wielder? :bored: Until you resolve speed vs. reach, you WILL NOT have a plausible weapon speed factor rules. It will be nothing more than promoting tiny weapons. Sighs. :nonono: AFAIC, One's own Dex can determine who goes first (or last) in the game.
SageBahamut 12-19-06, 01:21 AM	I actually prefer the version of weapon speed - I forget if it's the Everquest one or something else - where the type of weapon you use determines how much BAB you need to get a second attack with it. Broken may it be in D&D rules, I find that to be closer to real life. Even if combat is a complex series of feints and parries and what-have-you, the fact remains that a quick poke with a dagger is quicker to recover from, and can therefore be repeated more quickly, than is a skull-splitting greataxe swing.
CroBob 12-19-06, 01:38 AM	Says who? An unproficient axe-wielder or a master axe-wielder? :bored: Until you resolve speed vs. reach, you WILL NOT have a plausible weapon speed factor rules. It will be nothing more than promoting tiny weapons. Sighs. :nonono: AFAIC, One's own Dex can determine who goes first (or last) in the game. ... I was saying that speed factors should not be included at all, because initiative and base attack already cover speed and skill. Size and weight of a weapon is irrelevant even considering the skill (or lack thereof) of it's weilder in a real fight, why make it relevant in a fictional one? The rules are abstract. A weapon is not superior for use to a different weapon due to it's being lighter, nor is a larger weapon preferable because of it's reach. Neither of those are significant factors in a fight. Not significant enough for their own rule-set. Hence the exclusion of speed factors.
Eikcuf 12-19-06, 11:47 AM	Why does every weapon need to have its own speed? Why can't you simplify to the categories that are in the game now? This slightly improves the speed versus range debate, with light weapons being smaller than the two handers. Just my thoughts :)
Radijs 12-22-06, 07:05 PM	Can't you just KISS? Combat takes enough time as it is, why add more?
Ranger REG 12-23-06, 01:28 AM	Can't you just KISS? Combat takes enough time as it is, why add more? Because someone wants to offer a new optional rule, which is what Unearthed Arcana thread is all about: optional rules.
Sleepwalker13666 12-26-06, 09:19 PM	I actually prefer the version of weapon speed - I forget if it's the Everquest one or something else - where the type of weapon you use determines how much BAB you need to get a second attack with it. Broken may it be in D&D rules, I find that to be closer to real life. Even if combat is a complex series of feints and parries and what-have-you, the fact remains that a quick poke with a dagger is quicker to recover from, and can therefore be repeated more quickly, than is a skull-splitting greataxe swing. Yeah that sounds like the everquest one, the weapons had thier seperate number of attacs based on your B.A.B. the unarmed strie was lie 1 attack for every 2 B.A.B.
Seldriss 12-27-06, 03:07 PM	If it can help, in my own system, I use a weapon speed according to the type of weapon. Natural weapons +0 Light weapons +1 One hand weapons +2 Two-handed weapons +3 Bows and small thrown weapons +2 Crossbows and large thrown weapons +3 Precisions : Initiative is rolled for each round. Maluses (weapon speeds) are added to the roll, bonuses (Dex, Improved Initiative and other feats) are substracted. So the lower the end result the better. I use a similar system for Casting Time, the level of the spell being a penalty to Initiative.
Ranger REG 12-27-06, 05:26 PM	If it can help, in my own system, I use a weapon speed according to the type of weapon. Natural weapons +0 Light weapons +1 One hand weapons +2 Two-handed weapons +3 Bows and small thrown weapons +2 Crossbows and large thrown weapons +3 Precisions : Initiative is rolled for each round. Maluses (weapon speeds) are added to the roll, bonuses (Dex, Improved Initiative and other feats) are substracted. So the lower the end result the better. I use a similar system for Casting Time, the level of the spell being a penalty to Initiative. Again, this does not take into account weapon reach. If that's how you wish to play, Your Campaign, Your Rules.TM IMNSHO, it's too one-sided, heavily favoring tiny weapons with no reach, and diminishing weapon reach.
Pathos 12-30-06, 08:49 AM	Well, one way to think of it, as well as to add as an addendum to what has been said before... While reach is not directly addressed, beyond certain circumstances as noted in the PHB. One thing weapons with reach/weight do excell over lighter weapons, is in their damage potential. Especially where two-handed weapons are concerned, with their 1.5 strength damage increase. One option to address weight issues with light/fast weapons, could be to reduce the damage bonus due to exceptional strength by half. The same as if the character were weilding a weapon in their off-hand. If duel weilding light weapons, both are reduced by half. Should the character have the Weapon Focus feat for his chosen weapon, he can claim the full strength bonus in his primary hand. Natural attacks would be exempt from this rule.
Marrethiel 01-02-07, 12:33 AM	The only time I've seen a good weapon speed system is in a game called Ars Magica. Look it up and you will find some good ideas. One thing to note though about any change like this is that at high levels the base dice damage of weapons becomes less significant. There fore a high level warrior and rogue will naturally move to faster weapons. Also if you are facing spell casters you will need a faster weapon so you can act before them (this gets odd), move over to them and hold your action for their spell casting.
Stormbrand 01-02-07, 12:51 AM	I have had sword training and some dagger practice. The dagger is quicker to move but the sword gives you more control over the combat. When fighting with a bastard sword I was very quick. I am looking forward to trying 2h techniques. Unfortunately safety rules favour dagger and shield where I fight, but in my experience large weapons allow more ability to direct the fight.
Marrethiel 01-02-07, 01:01 AM	...in my experience large weapons allow more ability to direct the fight. I agree and think this is the fundamental problem when people add things to dnd to make them more "realistic". IMO If I felt the _need_ to do weapon speeds then I'd make it real simple and say that in any melee the person with the highest weapon dice (ie d8 goes before d6) goes first. A foe with an inherantly more dangerous weapon has to be respected and generally they will be able to decide when to attack. This would work quite well and not be too unbalancing and be without the need for tables. Eg. 2 Fighters. d6 wielder rolls 14 initiative. d8 wielder rolls 12. If the d6 wielder choses to attack on 14 then he provokes an OOP or he can wait until initiative 12, after the d8 user. If a mage enters the combat, the d6 person could attack the mage on 14 with out the OOP. This still provides some speed factor flavour without (too many) complications.
Ranger REG 01-02-07, 03:33 AM	IMO If I felt the _need_ to do weapon speeds Resist the need. (Ooh! I can boldface text! :P ) As someone tried to warn me, better to forget the weapon speed rules if it cannot address weapon reach.
Marrethiel 01-02-07, 07:21 PM	Resist the need. (Ooh! I can boldface text! :P ) As someone tried to warn me, better to forget the weapon speed rules if it cannot address weapon reach. The system I wrote does address weapon reach, in general. d8 weapons generally are larger and have more reach than d6... but like I said, I don't think it is needed in the 3.5 tactical environment. To address the OP's post: Too complicated, too open for abuse and disadvantages one fighter type over another.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-03-07, 08:29 PM	Sean K. Reynolds wrote a pretty good article on why weapon speeds don't work. A lot of the same points have been brought up here, but there're a few others he makes: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/weaponspeeds.html