Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 01-06-07, 08:23 AM	Hi all, I'm reposting these house roles in here (previously posted at "Equipment and Combat"), hoping to get more feedback of views. The purpose is to build a more realistic description of weapons and certain combat aspects. Please feel free to share your thoughts. The Weapon Groups in general: Each weapon group belongs to 1 of 3 possible categories: 1. "Stand Alone" Melee Weapon Groups. 2. "Multiple" Melee Weapon Groups. 3. Range-Weapon Groups How many weapon groups does everyone get? - Fighters: start with 5 melee groups and 2 range groups. - Rogues: start with 3 melee groups and 2 range groups. - Divine casters: start with 2 melee groups and 1 range group (subjected to ethos requirements) - Arcane casters: start with 1 melee groups and 1 range group. - All others: treat as ___________ (what ever you find appropriate) or define yourself. Every time a character reaches BAB that's divisible by 4, s/he's entitled to another weapon group. This may also be used for armor/shield proficiencies. How are the weapons distributed? - Each basic weapon group consists of several weapons that have a simplified operation technique. - Some weapons demand elaborate techniques to operate and require background in 2 (or 3) weapon groups to fully comprehend. Having background in the required groups automatically confers proficiency with them. - Exotic weapons are very tricky to use. They require explicit training, manifested as an expenditure of a separate weapon group slot. Weapon sizes and weapon speed: The given "sizes" (see "Abbreviations" later on) are actually representations of how quick the weapon is. At lower levels, it's not really possible to take advantage of weapons' quickness, because you're still learning to position yourself correctly within the melee combat "arena". With time and experience, you learn how to lend more punches/stabs/slices per time quota with the smaller weapons, provided you meet the criteria (otherwise, your weapon speed degrades). Large/huge weapons, Bows and tossed objects (Multiple ranged attacks require Quick Draw): +0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 / +0 +7 / +1 +8 / +2 +9 / +3 +10 / +4 +11 / +5 +12 / +6 / +0 +13 / +7 / +1 +14 / +8 / +2 +15 / +9 / +3 +16 / +10 / +4 +17 / +11 / +5 +18 / +12 / +6 / +0 +19 / +13 / +7 / +1 +20 / +14 / +8 / +2 Medium Weapon (medium/light/no armor; medium/light load; a small weapon/shield is the most you can carry in your off hand): +0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 / +0 +6 / +1 +7 / +2 +8 / +3 +9 / +4 +10 / +5 / +0 +11 / +6 / +1 +12 / +7 / +2 +13 / +8 / +3 +14 / +9 / +4 +15 / +10 / +5 / +0 +16 / +11 / +6 / +1 +17 / +12 / +7 / +2 +18 / +13 / +8 / +3 +19 / +14 / +9 / +4 +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 / +0 Small/tiny weapons (light/no armor; light loaded; buckler/tiny weapon/nothing in the your off hand) +0 +1 +2 +3 +4 / +0 +5 / +1 +6 / +2 +7 / +3 +8 / +4 / +0 +9 / +5 / +1 +10 / +6 / +2 +11 / +7 / +3 +12 / +8 / +4 / +0 +13 / +9 / +5 / +1 +14 / +10 / +6 / +2 +15 / +11 / +7 / +3 +16 / +12 / +8 / +4 / +0 +17 / +13 / +9 / +5 / +1 +18 / +14 / +10 / +6 / +2 +19 / +15 / +11 / +7 / +3 +20 / +16 / +12 / +8 / +4 / +0 Redefinition of TWF Ambidexterity [DEX 15+]: Off hand counts as primary hand (full STR damage modifiers on primary and secondary attack). It also allows you to switch hands if one is disabled, without suffering penalties. Without this feat, your off hand always takes a -4 hit penalty (on top of the -4 hit penalties to both hands without TWF) and you add only 1/2 STR-mod. Two Weapon Fighting: You gain one extra attack and can either strike interchangeably, or save the off-hand attack for last. Hitting with both weapons interchangeably equalizes the off-hand's attack bonus to that of the primary hand (if you have Ambidexterity, otherwise, the off-hand attack takes a -4 hit penalty), penalizing all attacks by -2 to hit. By saving the off hand attack for last, you don't receive any penalties to your primary attack and you gain 1 extra attack at your second highest attack bonus. A 20th level fighter with TWF and Ambidexterity that hold 2 small weapons thus has +18/+18 / +13/+13 / +8/+8. The same fighter, saving the extra attack for last, would have the following attack bonuses: +20/+15/+10/+5/+0 / +15 (or +11 without Ambidexterity). With both methods, if you wield 2 separate weapons, you do not need to make a full round action to gain an off-hand attack. You can refrain from attacking with the off hand weapon and use it to “aid self” on your primary attack the same way someone else could aid you in combat Double weapons cannot strike interchangeably, but they don't require Ambidexterity, except for applying full STR-mod to the secondary attack. Note I: Improved / Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats are irrelevant with this approach. Note II: 2WF is technique based, not DEX based. There's no prerequisite. Ambidexterity just makes it much more effective. * The above two feats are practically all there is to say about TWF. (And for those of you who're asking about 2W-defense) Weapon Focus: also adds +1 to AC against melee attacks / thrown weapons. Greater Weapon focus further adds another +1 to AC, and wielding 2 focused-weapons stacks the AC adjustment. Critical Enhancements (all stack): - Masterwork: increases the critical multiplier by 1. - Keen (magical): increases the critical threaten range and damage multiplier by 1, rather than doubling threaten range. - Greater Weapon Focus: Also increases critical threaten range by 1. - Greater Weapon Specialization: Also increases critical damage multiplier by 1. Strength score and weapon sizes : Your STR determines the "size" of weapons you can wield without penalties (if you wield a weapon your STR score is not high enough to wield, you suffer a -2 penalty to hit and init – cumulative for each deviation). Light weapons require STR=7, one-handed weapons and medium 2H weapons require STR=11, Large weapons require STR=15 and Huge weapons require STR=19. These numbers are modified by +/- 4 for each size category the character is larger/smaller than medium (just for size calculations, tiny weapons require STR=4). < THE WEAPONS and HOW IT ALL WORKS> Abbreviations T - Tiny weapon S - Small weapon M - Medium weapon L - Large weapon – large weapons may be wielded 1H. this makes them count as huge weapons. H – Huge weapon – add +4 to avoid disarm and to all sunder checks, both defensive and offensive. Apply a -2 init penalty and a -1 AC penalty. 1H/2H – A weapon designed for one-handed or two-handed use. When held 1-handed, use the large-weapons' attack roll progression. When held 2-handed, use the medium-weapons' attack roll progression. The weapon grants no extra attacks when used as off-hand weapon. That's the reason no one has ever seen in real life a warrior wielding 2 bastard swords or 2 War Axes. Ex – Exotic Weapon ExEx – This weapon has such a complex technique, that you must receive outside tutoring and invest 1 weapon-group slot just to make it usable at all and another weapon group slot to use it without penalties. Bl – This weapon does bludgeoning damage. Pi – This weapon does piercing damage. Sl – This weapon does slashing damage. Cho – This weapon's damage type is "chopping", meaning it combines edge and mass for slashing and bludgeoning damage on every hit. Pry – This weapon combines penetration with a crushing force. It deals piercing and bludgeoning damage Re – This weapon penetrates and tears its target from within. It deals piercing and slashing damage. Note I : if more than 1 type of damage is available, the 1st is the weapon's intuitive damage. Applying the other type deals -2 hit penalty (calculated separately on every weapon swing). In case of "typeA or typeB", both options are available at no penalty. Note II : unarmed attacks count as tiny weapons for Monks' BAB calculations and number of attacks, and as large for all other classes. Melee Weapon Groups (stand alone) : Axes: hand axe (S, Sl), throwing axe (S, Sl), Battleaxe (M, Cho), Steel War Axe (1H/2H, Cho), Great-Axe (L, Cho) Claw Weapons: punching dagger (T, Pi/Sl), Spiked Gauntlet (T, Pi), Bladed Gauntlet (M, Pi/Sl) Flails & Chains: Light Flail (M, Bl), Heavy Flail (L, Bl) Heavy Blades: Longsword (M, Sl or Pi), Greatsword (L, Cho), Falchion (L, Cho, Ex), Scimitar (M, Sl/Pi), Bastardsword(1H/2H, Cho/Pi) Light Blades: Dagger (T, Pi or Sl), Parrying Dagger (T, Pi/Sl), Rapier (S, Pi), Shortsword (S, Pi/Sl), Sickle(S, Sl/Pi), Kukri (S, Sl/Pi), Sapara (S, Sl/Pi, Ex), War Fan (S, Sl or Bl/Pi, Ex) Maces & Clubs: Club (S, Bl), Great Club (L, Bl), Light Mace (S, Bl), Heavy Mace (M, Bl), Sap (S, Bl) Picks & Hammers: Light Pick (S, Pi), Heavy Pick (M, Pry), Light Hammer (S, Bl), War Hammer (M, Bl), Maul (1H/2H, Bl), Dire Maul (H, Bl, Ex) Polearms: Glaive (L, Re), Gisarme (L, Sl), Ranseur (L, Pi/Sl), Lance (L, Pi, Ex) Spears: Javelin (S, Pi), Short Spear (S, Pi/Sl), Trident (S, Pi), Harpoon (S, Sl) String Based: Whip (L, Bl), Scourge (M, Bl), Net (M, --) Staffs: Quarterstaff (M, Bl), Battlestaff (L, Bl) Melee Weapon Groups (Multiple) : Axes + Heavy Blades: Khopesh (1H/2H, Cho, Ex) Axes + Heavy Blades + Staffs: Night Cleaver (H, Cho/Re, Ex) Axes + Maces & Clubs: Crusher-Axe (L, Cho and Bl, Ex) Axes + Spears + Staffs: Halberd(L, (Cho or Pi) and Bl), Urgosh(M, Cho and Pi/Sl) Flails & Chains + Light Blades + String Based: Kusarigama (M, Re or Bl) Flails & Chains + Maces & Clubs: Nunchaku (S, Bl), Tonfa (S, Bl) Flails & Chains + Maces & Clubs + Staffs: Three Section Staff (M, Bl, Ex) Flails & Chains + String Based: Battle Chain (M, Bl) Flails & Chains + Staffs: Flailed Staff (M, Bl) Heavy Blades + Light Blades: Katana (1H/2H, Sl or Pi, Ex) Heavy Blades + Maces & Clubs: Pounding Staff (L, Bl) Heavy Blades + Picks & Hammers: Scythe (M, Re) Heavy Blades + Staffs: Double Scimitar (M, Sl/Pi), 2-Bladed-Sword (L, Pi or Sl) Light Blades + Maces & Clubs: Sai (S, Bl), Siangham (S, Bl/Pi) Light Blades + Picks & Hammers: Kama (S, Re) Light Blades + String Based: Silken Pike (S, Bl or Sl, ExEx) Maces & Clubs + Picks & Hammers: Morningstar (M, Pry, Ex), Great Morningstar (H, Pry, Ex) Range Weapon Groups : Bows: Shortbow, Longbow, Composite Shortbow, Composite Longbow Crossbows: Hand Crossbow, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Light Crossbow, Repeating Heavy Crossbow Sling & Bola: Sling, Bola Tiny Projectiles: Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Iron Thrown Blades: Boomerang, Chakram Blowgun: Hand Blowgun / Long Blowgun: Core-Weapons removed : Double Axe: totally unwieldy, a problem to carry around and dangerous to the user. Dire Flail: dido. Spiked Chain: dido. Gnome Hooked-Hammer: dido Modified Core Weapons : Dart: 20’ range multiplier. Falchion: does 1d12 damage. Halberd: The halberd is a double weapon! It also allows the wielder to impale & "hoist" his opponents and slam them to the ground on a successful critical (hoisting & throwing requires STR 10 against small opponents, 16 against medium and 26 against large). This maneuver increases the critical multiplier by 1, but may be avoided with fort save (DEX based) against DC23 and renders the wielder exposed to AoO's. If you choose to attempt hoisting when scoring critical, you lose any remaining attacks until your next turn. Kama: crit 20/x3. Morningstar: crit.: 19-20 / x3. This weapon was greatly feared for a reason. It was affectively a one strike-one kill weapon. Nunchaku: Those proficient with this weapon and have Ambidexterity gain an extra attack, as if wielding 2 small weapons interchangeably. This has nothing to do with 2WF or off hand attack, but rather exchanging holds on a symmetrical weapon. The Nunchaku is usually made of steel and deals d6 damage. Its wooden version does d4 non lethal damage, but counts as a tiny weapon, thus using the best BAB progression. Quarterstaff: The quarterstaff automatically grants its wielder +2 AC bonus against melee and thrown weapons, and an additional +1 when fighting defensively and +2 for total defense. Quarterstaff wielders are unaffected by counter-tripping. An improvised wooden stick does d4 damage, but a highly fashioned combat staff is fitted with steel tips that enhance the damage to d6. Shuriken: d3 slashing or piercing damage (there are 2 general types), 15’ range multiplier. Sling: this weapon does d6 (20/x2) with metal bullets and d4 with improvised ammunition. Spear: Does d8 damage. When held 2H, it's similar to the quarterstaff in functionality, except the primary side does d8 damage. It doesn't confer the basic +2 AC against melee and thrown weapons, but it does grant the extra AC bonus for fighting on the defensive, or for total defense. The Longspear is actually a Pike. The given pole weapons have made it obsolete. Trident: skewers on a critical hit. Removing a skewered trident causes d6 damage and requires a full round's action. If one continues to fight with the trident in place, he takes d3 points per round and suffers -2 hit and -1 init penalties, and -3 to all perception based skills. Additional weapons: Battle Chain: functions the same as described for the spiked chain (a reach weapon that allows attacks against adjacent opponents), but it does d6 (20/x2) bludgeoning damage. Unlike other weapons, the Battle Chain allows other effects on top of damage, if you have Combat Expertise & Weapon Specialization. 1. You may make a grapple check with your chain weapon out to the extent of its reach. The grapple (touch attack) is initiated by a normal attack roll (for potential damage). Chain Grapple negates the possibility for critical hits and STR mod isn’t added to damage. If an opponent cannot reach you it cannot attempt to counter-grapple. He may instead attempt to disarm you of the chain weapon without provoking an AoO. If successfully initiating a grapple at a -4 check penalty and managing to pin, the chain gets wrapped around the target’s face. Each round thereafter and until your opponent disarms you (at a -4 penalty) or makes a successful Escape Artist check (DC 20 + your STR mod), he suffers -4 penalties to all perception based skills, and cannot speak. He must also make a Fort save (DC: [10 + BAB/2 + STR mod]) or fall unconscious for 1 round for every point below the DC value. 2. Upon successfully striking an opponent in melee combat, you may immediately attempt to trip them as a free action. Even if successful, you don’t get the follow-up attack usually gained from Improved Trip (the trip was a follow-up in itself). As with Chain Grapple, Chain Trip negates the possibility for critical hits and STR-mod isn’t added to damage. Battlestaff: this double weapon is a massive steel-reinforced version of the quarterstaff with studded steel tips that does d8 (20/x2) damage and lacks the quarterstaff's defensive advantage. Bladed Gauntlet: This gauntlet has 3 blades protruding forward from its back, each about the length of a dagger beyond the knuckles. It does d6 (20/x2) damage and cannot be disarmed. Blowgun (hand) : 20' range increment. Deals 1 point of damage + poison effect. Blowgun (large) : 60' range increment. Deals 1d3 points of damage + poison effect. Boomerang: this weapon does d4 (20X2) damage when it hits. If it misses, it returns to the wielder. Cestus: adds d3 bludgeoning damage to unarmed strike, at the expense of a -2 penalty to all climb checks. Chakram: this circular blade does d6 (19-20/x2) damage and has a range increment of 20'. Crusher-Axe: this weapon is an elongated large axe (d10, 20/x3) with a studded steel ball (d8, 20/x2) at the back side. Dire Maul: Does 2d6 (20/x3). Any hit from this devastating weapon counts as Bull Rush. Flailed Staff: This weapon looks like 2 staffs connected together, one of normal length and the other just 1/3rd length. The primary side does d8 damage, but allows counter-tripping. In all other aspects, this weapon functions like a regular quarterstaff. Great Morningstar: 2d6 (19-20/x3), metal hafted. Flailed Staff (Flails & Chains+ Staffs): This weapon looks like 2 staffs connected together, one of normal length and the other just 1/3rd length. The primary side does d8 damage, but allows counter-tripping. In all other aspects, this weapon functions like a regular quarterstaff. Katana: the highest quality blade known. A standard Katana (5000gp, hardness 15, 20 HP) does 2d6+1 (18-20/x3) damage. It may be used either 1H or 2H (equivalent to Bastardsword) and counts as masterwork weapon. One usually cannot simply buy Katana, since they are custom made for high military positions or nobility in certain cultures and take 6 months to make by 3 different master craftsmen. Masterwork Katana double the usual effects of masterwork weapons, are 100% stainless, and although not made of adamantine, they penetrate hardness just as effectively. They require 5 years of preparations and are made only for the use of a state's highest military position. There's no record of a masterwork Katana ever being sundered (in or outside of battle) and no market value set for them. Although the Katana counts as exotic, it's incredibly balanced. Someone with background with Light Blades and Heavy Blades that didn't take the required exotic weapon training uses it as if it were a Bastardsword. Khopesh: this sword seems like a bizarre hybrid between a sword and an axe. It does d8 (19-20/x2) damage. Kusarigama: the next step in the evolution of the Battle Chain, this weapon is a Battle Chain with a Kama attached to one side instead of a weight. Maul: Does d10 (20/x2). Night Cleaver: this weapon is a massive and elongated axe-like blade, connected to a short and heavy pole with 4 docking points. It does 2d6 (19-20/x3) damage. For sundering attempts during combat it has hardness 15 and 20 HP. Parrying Dagger: This triple-bladed version trades some damage potential for defense and maneuverability. It does d4 (20/x2) piercing damage. Pounding Staff: this weapon (introduced in “crouching tiger, hidden dragon”) is a 4’ “cubistic” fashioned steel staff with a sword-like 2-handed handle. It’s serrated throughout the entire length and does 2d6 (20/x2) damage, and adds +4 to all sundering attempts. Its mass makes it useful for tripping. Scourge: this shorter and more battle-appropriate version of the whip does d8 (20/x2) damage. Silken Pike: only a handful of individuals master the usage or the means of preparation of this weapon. The silken pike is actually a 10' scarf, woven out of extremely fine steel threads intertwined with silk, which has undergone special treatment with oils and minerals to withstand fire to some extent. When used correctly, it does d6 (20/x2) bludgeoning (forward jab – hence the name) or slashing damage. It can trip, disarm, entangle, strike up to 10' away and sunder. In terms of speed, it counts as a small weapon and it can be used 1H or 2H. Without the proper training, this weapon is no more than a piece of garment. Steel War-Axe (1H/2H): the classic symmetrical metal hafted axe. It does d10 (20/x3) damage. Unlike other axes, its handle is too short for tripping. However, because of its relatively short haft, it can be used in confined spaces. Three-section-staff: this double weapon has the same stats as quarterstaff. To disarm a 3-sec-staff, one actually needs two successful and consecutive disarm actions against a 1-handed weapon. For all 2WF applications, 3-section-staff counts as 2 separate ideal-paired weapons. You may also swing it as a 2-handed weapon for d8 damage, usually saved to gain reach attacks, but then you may be disarmed normally. Throwing Iron: this piercing weapon uses the same stats as shuriken. It's useless for cutting soft materials, but it reduces the defense of any chain or scale based armor by -2, by penetrating in between the metal parts. Tonfa: Think of a policeman’s nightstick. This weapon does d4 (20/x2) damage. A single tonfa matches the quarterstaff’s defense. When used in pairs, the AC bonuses stack on all applications. This weapon is slow on the offensive side. In order to enjoy the defensive advantage of this weapon, you must attack with it as if it were a large weapon (in terms of weapon speed). War Fan: When held open, this weapon does d6 slashing damage and grants +2 bonuses to disarm and to AC. It can be used for bludgeoning or piercing damage when closed, but then it loses the bonuses to disarm and AC. Switching operatus modes can be done once on a combat round cycle as a swift action (the second time requires a move action). Note I: Unless noted otherwise, all melee weapons have a range increment of 5'. Note II: All weapons related to Staffs (except Great Spear and Night Cleaver) can utilize reach attacks. Medium weapons allow switching uses 1ce/round between double-weapon and reach-weapon as a swift action and large weapons require a move action to do so. Reach attacks made by non-reach weapons prohibit diagonal maneuvers (e.g. AC bonus, trip, disarm, slash, hoist…) Note III: Except for combat in confined places, all reach weapons allow attacks against adjacent opponents. Note IV: All x4 crit multipliers are reduced to x3. Ideal Pairs: usually, when wielding 2 weapons of the same size category (small or medium), the "Firing rate" is reduced to that of the larger category. Some weapons, however, are designed to work perfectly as pairs and do not impose this limitation (as pairs). These weapons are: Kama, Light Mace, Nunchaku, Sai, Sapara, Scimitar, Siangham and Shortsword. Combat Maneuvers and relevant weapons Trip - applicable for any weapon related to Axes (except War Axe – see weapon's descrition), Flails & Chains, Picks (but not Hammers), Staffs and sting Based. Other weapons that may Trip are: Guisarme, Kama, Khopesh, Pounding Staff, Scythe and Sapara. Disarm - applicable for any weapon related to Axes and Flails & Chains. Other weapons that may disarm are: all swords, Bladed Gauntlet, Kama, Parrying Dagger, Quarterstaff, Ranseur, Sai, Scourge, Siangham, Sickle and Whip. Sunder - applicable for any bludgeoning or slashing weapon, except for Bola, Sap, Shuriken and Whip Deflect (see below) - applicable for any weapon related to Axes, Flails & Chains, Heavy Blades, Maces & Clubs, Picks & Hammers and Staffs. Other weapons that may deflect are: Parrying Dagger, Sai, Sapara, Siangham and Shortsword. Deflect: some weapons allow you to avoid receiving an immanent blow. This option comes at the expense of an attack roll (or several) forfeited in your previous action, or an unused AoO. If attacked by a melee weapon (either in melee or when thrown) and hit, you may forfeit an attack and roll against AC 20 + the extra score achieved beyond the minimum score needed to hit you. This maneuver, if successful, negates the attack. Missile attacks and lanced charges cannot be deflected, nor can attacks made by creatures 2 size categories larger. This maneuver has no validity agains sundering attempts. Deflecting natural attacks: the attacker is aware that pushing through means certain injury. Should the attacker continue, he/she/it automatically gets hit and takes a -4 hit penalty. A shield can be used for deflection : at the risk of being sundered. Improved Deflect [Combat Expertise]: a successful deflection allows an immediate retaliation with the same maneuver and the same attack bonus. If you score a hit, the attacker also losses his next immediate attack (if any left before his next action). A failed deflect still wastes an attack and applies no penalty on the attacker. Reverse Attack [Improved Deflect, Improved Unarmed Strike]: if you successfully deflect a weapon carrying opponent with your bare hands, instead of making a follow-up attack, you can make your opponent attack himself (without calculating STR-mod or any feat-related damage enhancement) and lose all remaining attacks until his next turn. To accomplish this maneuver, you must beat you opponent at grapple check.
Dex 01-07-07, 03:10 AM	I like the groupings and 'combination groupings', as well as some of your new weapons (the silken pike in particular). However, I think the lance should be a combination polearms + spears weapon, or maybe just in one of those two. I'm also not sure about the BAB progressions for the type of weapon. Perhaps you should limit the number of attacks per round, rather than have a new progression for each weight/type. For example, a character weilding a light weapon has no limit on their attacks (ie attacks as whatever their BAB and two-weapon and flurry etc. allows), whereas two handed weapons could have a maximum of three attacks per round or something. Having to refer to multiple sets of BAB tables could get confusing if a character uses different weapons in a fight. I recall one encounter with a disarm specialist - we were down to spiked gauntlets and unarmed attacks after quickdrawing enough different weapons for a small army - I'd hate to think how much longer it would have taken to refer to a bunch of different tables in the middle of the combat.
nonsi 01-07-07, 05:04 AM	I like the groupings and 'combination groupings', as well as some of your new weapons (the silken pike in particular). However, I think the lance should be a combination polearms + spears weapon, or maybe just in one of those two. I believe you're right. And since many fighters in history had no proficiency with the Lance, often WITH background in polearms, I guess it should be Exotic. whereas two handed weapons could have a maximum of three attacks per round or something If you'll notice, the large-weapons' BAB has already taken a mild penalty. I think that more than that would raise some serious objections. I recall one encounter with a disarm specialist - we were down to spiked gauntlets and unarmed attacks after quickdrawing enough different weapons for a small army - I'd hate to think how much longer it would have taken to refer to a bunch of different tables in the middle of the combat. it's really quite easy. with nothing but your clothes on and a single weapon: - Tiny/Small weapons: consequent attacks take a cumulative -4 decrease. - Medium weapons: consequent attacks take a cumulative -5 decrease. - Large weapons: consequent attacks take a cumulative -6 decrease. (Large offhand weapon = absolutely redundant. You cannot maneuver with it to gain the extra attack) Offhand weapons or weapon-equivalents: - Buckler / Light-Armor ~= Tiny offhand weapon - Small-Shield / Medium-Armor ~= Small offhand weapon - Beyond that you always use the "Large weapons" BAB Calculations: 1. The character's load (this doesn't change too often). 2. The character's armor (this doesn't change too often). (1 & 2 set how "quick" the character can possibly be) 3. Check the character's primary weapon. 4. Check the character's secondary weapon (when relevant. regard the heavier weapon first).
Neutronium_Dragon 01-07-07, 05:48 AM	The issue with this method is that the current weapon stats were based on the assumption of an equal number of attacks. If smaller weapons suddenly get more attacks, their damage needs to be heavily reduced, larger weapons need to do much more, or both. Although to be honest, I stopped reading when I saw the katana entry.
nonsi 01-07-07, 08:26 AM	The issue with this method is that the current weapon stats were based on the assumption of an equal number of attacks. If smaller weapons suddenly get more attacks, their damage needs to be heavily reduced, larger weapons need to do much more, or both. Although to be honest, I stopped reading when I saw the Katana entry. 1. A masterwork great scimitar does 2d6+1 (crit. 18-20/x2) and costs much less than 5000. given the introduced descriptive limitations (cost & (lack of)abundance), I don't really notice any major problem. I really tried to draw from the reality we know. 2. I believe you didn't pay much attention to "Redefinition of TWF". With this approach there is no Improved/Greater/Oversized TWF. Larger weapon indeed have a far greater damage potential - with Power Attack (which I found appropriate to limit to +/-5 modifiers). 3. Too bad you stopped there. You missed some interesting stuff (IMO at least).
IronMouse 01-07-07, 10:29 AM	The katana entry makes you flinch, indeed... Consider renaming the weapon. Ambidexterity [DEX 14+]: Off hand counts as primary hand (full STR damage modifiers on primary and secondary attack). It also allows you to switch hands if one is disabled, without suffering penalties. Without this feat, your off hand always takes a -4 hit penalty (on top of the -4 hit penalties to both hands without TWF) and you add only 1/2 STR-mod. Even numbers are never used as stat prerequisites in 3.x. You should change it to either 13 or 15 Dex (the 3.0 ambidexterity needed 15).
nonsi 01-07-07, 11:20 AM	The katana entry makes you flinch, indeed... Consider renaming the weapon. I do believe that compared to other weapons, the stats I introduced are quite reasonable. A well crafted Katana cuts better than any other blade you can come up with (including a surgical knife) and is extremely hard to break (even with another Katana). Even numbers are never used as stat prerequisites in 3.x. You should change it to either 13 or 15 Dex (the 3.0 ambidexterity needed 15). Thanks, I corrected that error.
IronMouse 01-07-07, 12:58 PM	I do believe that compared to other weapons, the stats I introduced are quite reasonable. A well crafted Katana cuts better than any other blade you can come up with (including a surgical knife) and is extremely hard to break (even with another Katana). When reading your first post, I can see that you did some research. However, whatever your katana source was, it's not a good one. A well crafted katana was indeed a good weapon, but far from beeing so superior as it's often portrayed. Sadly, there are still fanboi-pages out there who claim that the katana was the most uber weapon in existense, nearly unbreakable, able to cut through steel like butter and such crap. That's just not true... Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana#Comparisons_with_swords_of_other_ cultures It's a common houserule to give katanas the following stats: 1d8, 18-20/x2, twohanded martial, onehanded exotic. This puts them in line with the other curved blades and is probably the most realistic solution available.
nonsi 01-07-07, 05:43 PM	When reading your first post, I can see that you did some research. However, whatever your katana source was, it's not a good one. A well crafted katana was indeed a good weapon, but far from beeing so superior as it's often portrayed. Sadly, there are still fanboi-pages out there who claim that the katana was the most uber weapon in existense, nearly unbreakable, able to cut through steel like butter and such crap. That's just not true... Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana#Comparisons_with_swords_of_other_ cultures It's a common houserule to give katanas the following stats: 1d8, 18-20/x2, twohanded martial, onehanded exotic. This puts them in line with the other curved blades and is probably the most realistic solution available. I really hate myself for doing this (since this isn't a Katana thread), but With all due respect to Wikipedia . . . It so happens that I've just spent the last 2 hours viewing a scientific documentary (on National Geographic) that presented an agenda to put martial arts myths to the test. Let's just sum it up that after viewing dozens of unarmed & armed styles, the bottom line was unquestionable and unarguable: The Katana is the refined essence of martial arts. It's sharper, more durable, more maneuverable and deadlier than any other face to face weapon ever crafted on this earth. I've seen it cut, I've seen it thrust and I've seen it move in the hands of some of the world's leading martial artists. What can I say, seeing is believing.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-07-07, 07:38 PM	The ham-acted National Geographic episode which prompted Mythbusters to do an episode of their own on the subject and shoot that NG's claims more full of holes than swiss cheese? Yeah, great research there. :P
Shaftiel 01-07-07, 08:09 PM	I'm far from an expert on katanas, but according to a fairly knowledgable friend of mine the ninjato evolved from - and commonly was - just a broken katana. Which would imply that not only did katanas break, but they did so often enough that the broken ones could be reliably salvaged from battlefields. Again, I'm not an expert, but this is a lot more believable than a non-magical blade that allows anyone to effortlessly cut through an engine block, which is how you currently have it described. Other weapons: Tonfa: I don't see how a tonfa could be a better defensive item than a heavy shield; for that matter, I'm not even sure a staff should. At the very least you should change the AC bonuses to shield bonuses that stack with other shield bonuses b/c as written, they apply against touch attacks. They should be equal to bucklers. Spiked Chain: Believe it or not, I think spiked chains are perfectly viable weapons - in the hands of creatures with DR against them. But that's just me. Morningstar: Um... 19-20 x3 is really high. For a bat with nails. And... it's an exotic weapon now? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your definition of the weapon... i mean, i can see that it looks nasty, but I don't understand why the crit rating is higher than, say, a battle axe. Spear: I'd actually keep it identical to the staff, except for the pointy bit at the end. Can't think of a reason why you wouldn't parry with it just like a staff. Battlestaff: Same as spear, keep all the bonuses of a normal staff - just drop on a Str requirement (13 or 15, your choice). Great Spear: I personally think this is a dumb weapon and since you got rid of the double weapons you should get rid of this too. It'd be too heavy to stab with using any real force, much less swing around to engage opponents to you flanks. War Fan: Same issues as tonfa. -Shaftiel
nonsi 01-08-07, 05:54 AM	I'm far from an expert on katanas, but according to a fairly knowledgable friend of mine the ninjato evolved from - and commonly was - just a broken katana. Which would imply that not only did katanas break, but they did so often enough that the broken ones could be reliably salvaged from battlefields. 1. I just found out yesterday that "katana", originally, simply means Sword. I tend to believe that the average foot soldier in those days never even got to see a mastercrafted Katana, not to mention own one. 2. Far from me to claim that something is unbreakable. Again, I'm not an expert, but this is a lot more believable than a non-magical blade that allows anyone to effortlessly cut through an engine block, which is how you currently have it described. 1-point of damage beyond a Greatsword is hardly cutting through an engine block. Other weapons: Tonfa: I don't see how a tonfa could be a better defensive item than a heavy shield; for that matter, I'm not even sure a staff should. At the very least you should change the AC bonuses to shield bonuses that stack with other shield bonuses b/c as written, they apply against touch attacks. They should be equal to bucklers. 1. It's not my fault WotC insist on assigning shields such a non-realisticaly low AC-mod. I would scale them +1 to +4 (according to size). 2. While the shield is limited to serve as a somewhat mobile barrier, some weapons are designed to block and deflect. To my better knowledge, the Tonfa is the number one defensive melee weapon. 3. The AC adjustment is said to be against melee weapons only (in melee or when thrown). Spiked Chain: Believe it or not, I think spiked chains are perfectly viable weapons - in the hands of creatures with DR against them. But that's just me. Which is a very solid claim why it was never invented in the first place. Morningstar: Um... 19-20 x3 is really high. For a bat with nails. And... it's an exotic weapon now? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your definition of the weapon... i mean, i can see that it looks nasty, but I don't understand why the crit rating is higher than, say, a battle axe. The spikes are long & thick and have an impressive force behind them. A single blow to the torso or the head and you can kiss your mortgage goodbye. The spikes are set in such a way the it'd be almost impossible to miss all the vital organs in a decent strike - and that's exactly the thing that makes this weapon hard to handle without self injury. Spear: I'd actually keep it identical to the staff, except for the pointy bit at the end. Can't think of a reason why you wouldn't parry with it just like a staff. The speer is a bit narrower, has an inferior weight distribution and the wielder has to take the sharp tip into consideration. Seeing the pros in action (I did yesterday) you'll notice a difference in the fighting technique. The staff is more fluent. Battlestaff: Same as spear, keep all the bonuses of a normal staff - just drop on a Str requirement (13 or 15, your choice). The Battlestaff has almost twice the diameter and a steel core in the middle, to make it almost unbreakable. It lacks the speed and maneuverability to grant protection with merely basic proficiency. Great Spear: I personally think this is a dumb weapon and since you got rid of the double weapons you should get rid of this too. It'd be too heavy to stab with using any real force, much less swing around to engage opponents to you flanks. You make a strong argument there and I have no choice but to agree. War Fan: Same issues as tonfa. -Shaftiel I've seen it in action. Its technique is very confusing to the opponent. It also utilizes aerodynamics to a certain degree, to allow quick maneuvers otherwise not possible. It can easily block small projectiles and would definitely get in the way of arrows to a certain degree.
Shaftiel 01-08-07, 05:31 PM	1-point of damage beyond a Greatsword is hardly cutting through an engine block. Ah, that'd be the masterwork katana. And that's exactly what the "ignores DR" from adamantium does - given a few minutes and your masterwork katana, you or I could cut the engine from my 2000 Corolla into dozens of tiny pieces. Or rip through a brick wall. 1. It's not my fault WotC insist on assigning shields such a non-realisticaly low AC-mod. I would scale them +1 to +4 (according to size). 3. The AC adjustment is said to be against melee weapons only (in melee or when thrown). Okay, I missed the "vs. melee weapons". How would you balance shields, then? It's tough to judge the other items without that info. 2. While the shield is limited to serve as a somewhat mobile barrier, some weapons are designed to block and deflect. To my better knowledge, the Tonfa is the number one defensive melee weapon. I disagree, and from what I've seen anyone who was actually skilled with a shield would use it as a fully functional off-hand weapon - i.e. block, bash, push incoming weapons out of line to create openings, etc - but there are virtually no historic manuals for shield fighting aside from buckler use. So it's all opinion and SCA stuff. But with tonfa >= shield (even if only in full defense) you are saying that tonfa >= shield for ALL melee and thrown weapons. You really think a tonfa would be better than a heavy shield against a greatsword, or a half-ogre's great club, or a thrown javelin? Or that a pair of tonfa would be substantially better against these weapons? The spikes are long & thick and have an impressive force behind them. A single blow to the torso or the head and you can kiss your mortgage goodbye. The spikes are set in such a way the it'd be almost impossible to miss all the vital organs in a decent strike - and that's exactly the thing that makes this weapon hard to handle without self injury. Okay, here I disagree with you on almost all points. A fire axe to the head or the torso is gonna kill you just as certainly, as will a 5 lb. sledge. Heck, a gladius through the head leaves you dead. But by your system all are absolutely inferior. And unlike those weapons the rediating spikes make the club easier to handle. I'm sure you've swung bats in your day; throwing some spikes on the end doesn't magically mean you impale yourself on them. The spear is a bit narrower, has an inferior weight distribution and the wielder has to take the sharp tip into consideration. Seeing the pros in action (I did yesterday) you'll notice a difference in the fighting technique. The staff is more fluent. Sounds good. The Battlestaff has almost twice the diameter and a steel core in the middle, to make it almost unbreakable. It lacks the speed and maneuverability to grant protection with merely basic proficiency. I still think this is just a matter of strength... but look at it from a balance perspective. In your system the battlestaff is a universally inferior weapon. You have a worse AC and less attacks/round in exchange for +1 damage/hit - a terrible trade off no matter who you are. No one should ever use it as written. by making it identical to a normal staff, but with a Str prereq, at least it becomes a valid option. I've seen it in action. Its technique is very confusing to the opponent. It also utilizes aerodynamics to a certain degree, to allow quick maneuvers otherwise not possible. It can easily block small projectiles and would definitely get in the way of arrows to a certain degree. Again, same comments as tonfa. You've rather have a warfan than a heavy shield when a stone giant is attempting to crush you, or a foe with a greatsword, or someone with a pile of javelins? On the whole, looking at how you've upped the crits for so many weapons I suspect that you want deadlier weapons on the whole. Have you thought about switching over to a WP/VP or other variant damage system? -Shaftiel
nonsi 01-09-07, 09:41 AM	Ah, that'd be the masterwork katana. And that's exactly what the "ignores DR" from adamantium does - given a few minutes and your masterwork katana, you or I could cut the engine from my 2000 Corolla into dozens of tiny pieces. Or rip through a brick wall. I think we both misread the "masterwork" description, but we both had the same correct instinct. masterwork simply means "of better quality", so indeed it should affect damage rather than hit (the overall shape and weight distribution is not that (or at all) different from the regular versions). Anyway, the means for obtaining a masterwork Katana (the one that ignores DR) could and should be as outrageous the the DM's imagination can make them. There shouldn't even be 10 in a game world. Okay, I missed the "vs. melee weapons". How would you balance shields, then? It's tough to judge the other items without that info. Buckler: +1 AC. Small Shield: +2 AC Large Shield: +3 AC Tower Shield: +4 AC + Cover. With the different weapon speeds, you won't brake the game no matter what you pick. each has its own advantages. I disagree, and from what I've seen anyone who was actually skilled with a shield would use it as a fully functional off-hand weapon - i.e. block, bash, push incoming weapons out of line to create openings, etc - but there are virtually no historic manuals for shield fighting aside from buckler use. So it's all opinion and SCA stuff. Then let's redefine the Shield-feats tree and see if it makes more sense: Improved Shield Bash ---> Agile Shield Attack ---> ---> Shield Ward ---> ---> Shield Sling ---> ---> Focus & Specialization progression as any other weapon (the AC increase would come automatically from Greater Weapon Focus) (Shield Specialization, btw, is canceled) But with tonfa >= shield (even if only in full defense) you are saying that tonfa >= shield for ALL melee and thrown weapons. You really think a tonfa would be better than a heavy shield against a greatsword, or a half-ogre's great club, or a thrown javelin? Or that a pair of tonfa would be substantially better against these weapons? You're right. Let's redefine. Tonfa: Think of a policeman’s nightstick. This weapon does d4 (20/x2) damage. A single Tonfa can grant +1 AC vs. melee attacks. This bonus increases to +2 when fighting defensively and +3 for total defense. When used in pairs, the AC bonuses are increased by +1 on all applications. In order to enjoy the defensive advantage of this weapon, you must attack with it as if it were a large weapon (in terms of weapon speed). Now a pair equalizes the staff's defense. You pay for the TWF and must slow down to gain the defensive benefits, but you can use them in confined spaces. A fire axe to the head or the torso is gonna kill you just as certainly, as will a 5 lb. sledge. Heck, a gladius through the head leaves you dead. But by your system all are absolutely inferior. Assuming one would first watch his head, an axe/sword/club might slide when hitting the torso. a Morningstar - once hit - would probably go all the way in because it doesn't slide (now imagine how it gets out). And unlike those weapons the rediating spikes make the club easier to handle. I'm sure you've swung bats in your day; throwing some spikes on the end doesn't magically mean you impale yourself on them. You could swing any other weapon to even touch your bare skin without any risk. With the Morningstar there's no safe side and you need to keep it quite distant from your body, otherwise you might end up killing yourself. I still think this is just a matter of strength... but look at it from a balance perspective. In your system the battlestaff is a universally inferior weapon. You have a worse AC and less attacks/round in exchange for +1 damage/hit - a terrible trade off no matter who you are. No one should ever use it as written. by making it identical to a normal staff, but with a Str prereq, at least it becomes a valid option. The battlestaff is definitely NOT inferior. you do get the extra attack when using TWF technique and while the quarterstaff is reasonably easy to break, this one is at least as durable as any other weapon and would faithfully accompany you for a long time. If you match it to the querterstaff, the querterstaff's quickness would be meaningless and no fighter would ever use it (unless it would allow reach attacks - which would be very reasonable, along with the spear). Again, same comments as tonfa. You've rather have a warfan than a heavy shield when a stone giant is attempting to crush you, or a foe with a greatsword, or someone with a pile of javelins? Again you're right. Let's redefine War Fan: When held open, this weapon does d6 slashing damage and grants +2 bonuses to disarm. It can be used for bludgeoning or piercing damage when closed, but then it loses the bonuses to disarm. Switching operatus modes can be done as a swift action in between attacks. On the whole, looking at how you've upped the crits for so many weapons I suspect that you want deadlier weapons on the whole. Have you thought about switching over to a WP/VP or other variant damage system? Not really. I don't know the stats of the Chakram, but yes, it probably should crit only on 20. - The huge weapons have their advantages & DISadvantages. - The Kama should match the pick, mechanically. - The Sling is limited to 1 use / combat turn and it's quite reasonable that a metal ball from a sling would have double damage potential than a thrown improvised stone. - Regarding the Katana. Being so scarce on the magical equipment list and in blacksmiths' shops, and costing so much should even it up. - Other weapons either have 20/x2 or stayed the same (and all x4 were lowered).
Shaftiel 01-09-07, 04:02 PM	K, looks good. I've been thinking about the whole katana thing and am sure that it shouldn't bother me. I still disagree with you from an aesthetic standpoint, but in terms of balance, it seems fine - it's basically just a Fighter boost, and I'm from the spells>>Fighters camp, so that's okay. And the masterwork one is essentially a minor artifact, so no biggie there. And it seems unfair that I've been critiquing your weapons without giving you the chance to hit mine, which are, if anything, far more ridiculous than yours, so I'll throw a few up for you enjoyment. The first is pretty normal but they grow incresaingly absurd: Military Hammer d8 x3 crit bludgeoning or d6 x4 cit piercing, 5 lbs. Axe & mace basic weapon A larger version of the light military hammer, this has a haft of wood and an equally efficient combination hammer/pick for a head. It is not a double weapon; you get only your normal number of attacks, although you may choose which side of the head to use for each attack. Sword, ribbon d6 x2 crit slashing, 3 lbs. Whip & chain exotic weapon As the name suggests, a ribbon sword is a 15’ length of paper-thin steel with razor sharp edges and a grip at one end. It is among the most difficult of all weapons to wield; a character without both exotic whip & chain proficiency and a minimum Dexterity of 15 cannot use it at all. The ribbon sword is typically used by master martial artists to show off. When not being wielded it is worn as a belt. A ribbon sword is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach and you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). You threaten the entire area. Do not apply your Strength modifier to a ribbon sword. It is too lightweight to carry the extra force that a strong character can usually impart to a melee weapon. You cannot use Power Attack to increase the damage that you deal with a ribbon sword. You can make trip attacks with a ribbon sword. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the ribbon sword to avoid being tripped. In addition, when using a ribbon sword, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a ribbon sword even though it is a one-handed weapon. Pulverizer 2d8 x3 crit bludgeoning, 22 lbs. 2H axe & mace exotic weapon A pulverizer is an absurdly oversized warhammer, the type of weapon that one would expect to find in an anime. Historically, such a weapon would be useless, but when you are fighting dragons, giants, and demons there are times when normal weapons are insufficient. A pulverizer is a massive weapon. A character without both exotic 2H axe & mace proficiency and a minimum Strength of 15 cannot use it at all. Unless you possess the Massive Weapon Mastery feat, it requires a full-round action to make a single attack with a pulverizer and you cannot use it to make attacks of opportunity. Regardless of whether or not you have the Massive Weapon Mastery feat you cannot make charge attacks with a pulverizer. Omniweapon Varies (see below) *inspired by the WFRP "generic hand weapon"* Omniweapons are at once both the most fearsome and most absurd weapons ever designed. The weapon generally consists of a 3’-4’ long shaft with an obscenely complicated blade/saw/hammer/pick/ spear mounted at each end. For example, one end may be an 8” saw blade, leading into a 12” sword blade, followed by a pick and topped with a spear head, the whole thing having an axe head on the backside. The other end of the omniweapon would, of course, be completely different. For each attack with an omniweapon the wielder may choose the type of damage to deal from the following choices: 1d8 19-20/x2 Slashing 1d8 x3 Slashing 1d8 x3 Piercing 1d6 x4 Piercing 1d8 x3 Bludgeoning You can use an omniweapon as either a one-handed weapon or a double weapon. If you use it with two hands, it counts as a one-handed weapon being wielded with two hands. You can make trip attacks with an omniweapon. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the omniweapon to avoid being tripped. In addition, when using an omniweapon, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can even set an omniweapon against a charge, and if you use a ready action to do so, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character. The drawback to an omniweapon is that it is so bloody hard to wield. A character must either be proficient with exotic axe & mace, exotic polearm, and exotic sword to use it effectively, or take the "Wield Omniweapon" feat. He must also possess a Dexterity of at least 13, and even then he must have a minimum Strength of 13 to wield it one-handed. But those rare individuals who meet all the requirements do love their omniweapons… :D -Shaftiel
nonsi 01-09-07, 06:25 PM	Military Hammer d8 x3 crit bludgeoning or d6 x4 cit piercing, 5 lbs. Axe & mace basic weapon A larger version of the light military hammer, this has a haft of wood and an equally efficient combination hammer/pick for a head. It is not a double weapon; you get only your normal number of attacks, although you may choose which side of the head to use for each attack. I'd go "Picking Axe" with that notion, for either Cho or Pry damage type (both d8, 20/x3) and applicable for both 1H or 2H use. This could indeed be one of the most practical melee weapons ever invented. Sword, ribbon ... a character without both exotic whip & chain proficiency and a minimum Dexterity of 15 cannot use it at all. ... A ribbon sword is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach and you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). You threaten the entire area. ... Do not apply your Strength modifier to a ribbon sword. ... You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a ribbon sword even though it is a one-handed weapon. 1. It is known world wide that one shouldn't replay "House of Flying Daggers" more than 37 times :D 2. DEX=15 is definitely reasonable for "Silken Pike". Good idea. 3. Anything ribbon-shaped longer than 10' would be absoluteely useless in melee. I was quite hesitant myself with 10'. 4. STR-mod is no go for "Silken Pike" and "War Fan" held open. I'd say both are finesseable, and the "War Fan" specifically could allow DEX-mod to damage when held open, if it's finesseable, since the damage is basically momentum based. Thanks for the ideas. Pulverizer Basically, sounds like a very practical way of getting your opponent to cut you to ribbons while you stagger along. Omniweapon ... :D :D :D