Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BladeMage_1 12-18-05, 12:14 PM	Has anyone made up any HR on Weapons of Legacy? As everyone knows, there are downsides to having a WOL, and it is really a bad way (IMO) to balance out the power of the item. I was thinking of just trashing the cons and calling it a day but of course that wouldn't help the all powerful scale of game balance much. ;) So, any ideas?
ssvegeta555 12-18-05, 08:48 PM	Maybe after every ritual to unlock the weapons powers you have to give up some of your life force such as EXP. I'm not sure how much though.
Lord Schpungus 12-18-05, 10:33 PM	I'm a huge fan of the drawbacks, and yet I don't use them in my campaign. Why? Because there are no other magic items. At all. Only in that context would I suggest removing the penalties. I'm serious. The penalties (of some sort, and I believe that the drawbacks are the best solution) are there to balance out the fact that you're getting an artifact of the highest caliber for a pittance. Something has to give. XP doesn't work, because you'll just earn more back. Simple gp doesn't work because there's always more of that, and if you wanted to have to pay fairly no one could afford it.
WarColonel 12-21-05, 01:30 PM	This is something I posted on a forun where people were just complaining about the penaltiess, not understanding them: Items of legacy are much akin to prestige classes. A PrC is a sacrafice of a lesser HD, different BaB and Saves, and loss of Core class abilities for special abilities granted as you level. The tradeoff for an item of legacy is much the same. Primary tank classes, specializing in feats won't mind a few loss skill points for better damage, a monk does not hurt much with a -3 to one save, and whens the last time a 15th level sorcerer went into combat toe to toe without fireing off a fireball instead. The penalties of the weapon are far smaller then the benifites of a legacy weapon. Lord Schpungus, I think you were on the other forum, and yeah, since WoL are the only magic items in your game, you should take away the penalties. But in a normal campaign, you should come to realize they make sense.
Xeviat-DM 12-22-05, 04:04 PM	WarColonel, I noticed back when the Weapons of Legacy were first unveiled in a preview article that they resembled PrCs. None of my players have questioned why there are penalties. I've had a hard time understanding what the complaints have been. Perhaps they stem from the fact that the book was written in such a way that it is a little hard to understand.
-Arcanum- 12-24-05, 10:20 AM	I play a character who utilizes a Legendary Weapon used by the God of Death (Charon, in the Scarred Lands) to test his cleric's potential and reward them. My brother wrote the class (he co-runs it with my other brother... well... he runs the RP side of it mainly) and he made it a five level class. At each level I get a +2 ability bonus to a specific score as well as use of spells granted to me through the sword... my brother who runs the combat side of the game is going to slap a +5 level adjustment on the class once i finish getting it simply because: Once I finish the five levels in the class, they are converted into five levels of Divine Disciple and all the ability bonuses from the sword become permanent along with all the magical abilities that it granted temporarily once before. My solution to deal with that level adjustment is just to take it head on... because having the class complete would give me several devastating spell like abilities and such. Anyhow, that's my my Legendary weapon: Terminus Minor
Phalse_One 12-26-05, 08:20 PM	In my campaign I am working on a variation of the legendary weapons from Unearthed Arcana. According to the optional rule in there, you can take one of four prestige class (Spell Scion, Faith Scion, Swift Scion, and the other one which I think is called Battle Scion). Each of these ten level classes have BAB progression, save progression, skill progression and HD progression. The Faith Scion and Spell Scion have full spellcasting advancement, and the Swift Scion gains limited advancement of previous class features (sneak attack and so on). Each class has also offers increasing power with the weapon it is tied to. These classes are slightly more powerful than standard prestige classes, but this is compensated by the lack of another magic item. For example, if you are a Battle Scion of Ravager's Tooth (a legendary short sword) you gain most of your prestige class abilities only when using Ravager's Tooth, and so cannot gain any benefit from a +3 ghost touch bastard sword that you find. I am currently working on balancing stats for about 50 items. Unlike the rules from UA, I include non-weapon items, primarily those that occupy item slots (and a few that must be wielded, such as books that must be held in a hand to offer their power). I am also working on a Psion Scion (and wondering what kind of name to use that doesn't sound so stupid). If you like the idea of powerful defining weapons, but don't like the weapon of legacy rules check out UA and see if you like those rules. If your character has devoted 10 levels into being the wielder of Ravager's Tooth, it certainly defines the character, and it ties the character to certain aspects of the campaign world and it's history (maybe another group of PCs have even encountered Ravager's Tooth in the distant past, or had to kill the past wielder and know of its amazing power).
Greg K 12-26-05, 08:56 PM	Why not just reduce the amount of treasure that you give out each level? If characters are assumed to have X amount worth of magic items each level, determine how much the new abilities are worth and reduce the treasure you give out at that level accordingly.
Rathje 12-30-05, 10:48 PM	I think a fair trade-off would be that for each ritual, the character has to take the feat himself as one of his normal feats (as opposed to receiving it as a bonus feat). For a top-knotch Legacy Item, that's three feats gone, whereas a smaller one only costs a single feat. Fighters may get around this easily, but other classes would be paying a lot. I know I'd think long and hard before taking a Legacy Item under those conditions, but I'd still be tempted.
Xeviat-DM 12-31-05, 04:49 AM	That may be something. Let's look at this logically, and compare the losses of eah table to the values of three feats (I will compare the value of feats to the penalties emposed by Unearthed Arcana's flaws: -3 to a single save is a feat, -1 hp/level is a feat, -2 to hit is a feat, ect). 4-1: -2 Attack, -3 all saves, -16 hp. 4-2: -3 Attack, -4 single save, -10 hp. 4-3: -3 Skill checks, -20 hp. 4-4: -2 Attack, -3 Skill checks, -8 hp, -16 skill points 4-5: -3 Skill check, -2 all saves, -4 HP, -18 skill points 4-6: -2 Skill check, -1 all saves, -2 caster level penalty, -8th level spell slot 4-7: -1 Attack, -12 hp, -8th level spell slot 4-8: -3 Skill check, -3 caster level, -14 skill points, -5th level spell slot 4-9: -2 manifester level, -16 pp (note: this doesn't seem to compare to table 4-6 in severity; all things considered equal, I'd rather loose 16 pp than take -2 skill checks, -1 saves, and -8th level spell slot) 4-10: -1 Attack, -2 Manifester level, -14 hp, -12 pp Now, do most of these appear to be the negative value of 3 feats? I'd say that, at a glance, most of them seem to be worth three feats. You may have an idea there; the only problem is this: what happens to a character who looses their legacy item? Normally, one can perform an unbinding ritual and gain your lost abilities back, but I don't think one could perform an unbinding ritual to reselect feats (because if you found a new legacy item, you'd have to level up and regain feats; though I don't think you can give up abilities that were already spent, like skill points, when you find a new legacy item; or can you?).
Rathje 01-07-06, 03:13 AM	You may have an idea there; the only problem is this: what happens to a character who looses their legacy item? Normally, one can perform an unbinding ritual and gain your lost abilities back, but I don't think one could perform an unbinding ritual to reselect feats (because if you found a new legacy item, you'd have to level up and regain feats; though I don't think you can give up abilities that were already spent, like skill points, when you find a new legacy item; or can you?). I actually pumped that idea out without considering consequences or balance issues. It was just something I was kicking around but hadn't gone to the extent of really calculating, since I figured the penalties weren't that bad and I'd just take Wizards' rules on it. That said, you could always rely on the goodness of the DM's heart. As a small trade-off and since we're already coming up with house rules, what if one could use minimal Legacy Item bonuses with mundane items of the same type (such as Legacy longsword compared to mundane longsword)? With the Least feat: Nothing. With the Lesser feat: He can use bonuses from the Least feat with mundane items of the same type. With the Greater Feat: He can use bonuses from Least and Lesser feat with mundane items of the same type. This could signify the character creating his own legacy with the item. That would also justify not getting anything with Least feat, since the legacy of the new wielder hasn't progressed yet.
dakkon75 02-12-06, 03:35 PM	i like the idea of spending 3 feats instead of the drawbacks of a WoL. You may have an idea there; the only problem is this: what happens to a character who looses their legacy item? Normally, one can perform an unbinding ritual and gain your lost abilities back, but I don't think one could perform an unbinding ritual to reselect feats (because if you found a new legacy item, you'd have to level up and regain feats; though I don't think you can give up abilities that were already spent, like skill points, when you find a new legacy item; or can you?). how about this. if you lose your WoL you have to perform the unbinding ritual to "free up the 3 feats", you would still have the feats in your feat list but for the moment they would be taking up space. Now find a new WoL and choose a ritual that would be associated with it. Perform the ritual and spend gp and xp appropriately for the least, lesser, and greater abilities. This would bond the WoL to you and still have it so that you wouldn't have to level up and regain feats. Granted that this might be considered expensive in gp and xp, but i am currently playtesting this in a game. This is assuming that the character can't find their old WoL. Let me know what you think.
BladeMage_1 02-12-06, 05:35 PM	i like the idea of spending 3 feats instead of the drawbacks of a WoL. how about this. if you lose your WoL you have to perform the unbinding ritual to "free up the 3 feats", you would still have the feats in your feat list but for the moment they would be taking up space. Now find a new WoL and choose a ritual that would be associated with it. Perform the ritual and spend gp and xp appropriately for the least, lesser, and greater abilities. This would bond the WoL to you and still have it so that you wouldn't have to level up and regain feats. Granted that this might be considered expensive in gp and xp, but i am currently playtesting this in a game. This is assuming that the character can't find their old WoL. Let me know what you think. That's a good idea. Makes more sense if you lose one, too. I mean, I still don't like the whole spending feats thing, but it comes down to what's available.
Mist of Shadows 02-13-06, 09:46 PM	could you use the chameleon's Bonus feat ability to duplicate the legacy feats? I mean you would get the bonus's temp and the penalties temp without spending stupid amounts of gold..
BladeMage_1 04-15-06, 01:09 PM	sorry for the long silence... I think I may have figured out a way to work legacy items into the game without actually using WoL. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of this: Weapons that gain EXP. Every magic weapon now has a set path (like a legacy gained through rituals). A +1 longsword, can, over time become a +5 icy burst Fire Outsiders bane longsword upon gaining experience. Like a player charcter gains EXP from killing creatures or disabling traps, a magic weapon gains EXP through battle with it's wielder. Artfacts and/or legacy weapons can still exist, although in addition to gaining EXP, the wielder must still perform the rituals required to unlock the weapon's mysteries (and artifacts cost more). So what do you think about this?
Mist of Shadows 04-15-06, 04:26 PM	I'll point out something, most of the legacy weapons are worse then weapons you can make. Other then the whole not breaking thing. But for the most part they are just weapons with certain abilities that could be made easily by the time you get all of the gold together to do the ritual. For one people can't use them before 5th level. It's not impossible to have enough gold to start enchanting a weapon, by the time you finish I'm pretty sure that you will have something better then most of the Leg weapons. Keep in mind that you can save by not giving it a + 5 and casting that greater magical weapon spell on it. The legacy weapons just aren't all that good for something that gives you so many negatives. I really like the weapons out of the unearthed arcana. They were interesting weapons that required a prestige class but at least they has special abilities I couldn't just buy.
Xeviat-DM 04-16-06, 01:23 AM	If you have a +2 weapon by 5th level, your DM is not playing by the standard DMG wealth levels; a legacy weapon is generally a +1 weapon before 5th level. Yes, you could make a magic item that has the same statistics as a legacy weapon. When WoL first came out, I went through the creation guidelines and priced what each ability rank was roughly worth. I came up with a rather simplistic pricing guideline, which I posted on this board. With it, I determined that the normal value for a WoL item at 20th level is roughly ... 282,000 gp! And the character only has to pay about 50,000 gp for it! That's a savings of more than 200,000 gp! And you're complaining about the penalties! You could easily purchase items to shore up those weaknesses to cover 200,000 gp in costs. Darn, that's a lot of GP savings, I hadn't realized it was that much and people are still whinning about the penalties. Dang.
Mist of Shadows 04-16-06, 03:46 AM	You're kidding right? 200,000 is nothing compared to the penalties. I would rather spend the 200,000 and be happy then spend the 50,000 and gimp myself. The problem is that it's not really 282,000 for me it's most likely 160,000 because I could craft it myself for a number of my characters. As for the wealth if I run with any of the money making schemes, in other words take jobs that pay loot the bodies of things that have money. Fabricate things for gold. Actually keep the loot of fallen hirelings and pcs. Then I'll normally have extra money around before 20th level to make that. I would rather make the items I want with just what I want then to have the weapon of legacy gimp me. Add in being able to save money by not enchanting an item to +5 and using a spell to do that work and you come out ahead. I would rather spend money there are plenty of ways to make it up. You can't make up some of those penalties from the legacy weapons. Even if you get rid of the cursed thing some of the downsides are still going to be there. But if you want cheap weapons go for it. Mostly it's the idea of paying with base attack for a melee weapon. It's like you're gettin worse with the sword then if you had used something else. Well geee let me see I think I'm going to choose something that doesn't make me fell like it's cursed.
Xeviat-DM 04-16-06, 06:53 PM	Let's look at the basic penalties okay? Table 4-1 penalizes -2 attack (not base attack), -3 saves (not base saves), and -16 hp. -2 attack is roughly two flaws, -3 to all saves is 3 flaws, and -16 hp isn't even a single flaw (single flaw would be -20 hp at this point). So for gaining a "cheeper weapon", you give up roughly six feats (I have to correct my earlier statement that they were worth 3 feats). Table 4-3 is simple too: -3 to skill checks and -20 hp. -20 hp is a single flaw, and -3 to skill checks is roughly 3 flaws (one flaw for -2 to all physical skills, then you could translate that to -2 to all mental skills, and another one for -1 to all skills). So this chart is only 4 flaws. See a patern? If the legacy item was accessed through a 15 level PrC, that granted almost all of the abilities of your base class but made you take a 3/4ths BAB, a lower HD, all low base saves, and a required you to keep a "worthless" skill at maxed ranks (such as knowledge history for the flavor of it), I highly doubt you'd complain. Seriously, the penalties aren't that much, and I hope my attempt to change your mind at least opens the minds of others reading this thread.
Mist of Shadows 04-18-06, 06:33 PM	So I lose 6 feats more or less, for a cheaper weapon.. Well a prc would give some of the stuff but not the other issues. For example I wouldn't care what the base attack progression would be if I took the class after level 20 same with the saves. The hp I would and the skills being lower but the worst a class is going to give is 2 so no worse then fighter or wizard. the worst hd is 4 so no worse then a wizard. I sort of like the prestige class because it grows with you, rather then jumping by how ever many levels you are then growing with you. I like the weapons of legacy because it grows with you from the moment you pick it up. Maybe it's worth it depending on the item and the campaign maybe it's not. I don't much care either way. It's rarely ever worth it for me.
Xeviat-DM 04-20-06, 08:32 AM	The beauty is that a WoL doesn't infringe on your other class abilities. A fighter PrC will most definately give less bonus feats to help balance it, while a wizard PrC may loose a few caster levels. Sorry I couldn't help convince you.
Mist of Shadows 04-20-06, 10:35 PM	They would most likely lose something like spell casting or fighter feats. They already lose attack bonuses and spell slots in some cases. I guess I don't like the weapon of legacy book for a few reasons, I spent money on it, I was sort of hoping to find some more useful things all around. It's not that I care so much about the drawbacks, they are not more then some of the weapons are worth nor out of balance with certain other game issues. It's the flavor text you use this weapon you lose these things for these levels.. So I pick up the weapon and suddenly get worse at fighting or lose a number of skill points. Or just from carrying this weapon I get worse at dodging a fireball. Or any of the other draw backs. You say but you spent time learning how to use the weapon rather then practicing your skills. ER NO not if I just got the weapon the penalties can backwards as well. You take all of the bad things for all of the levels of the item even if you just got it. So suddenly I'm worse then I was before. Sure I have an item with some neat abilities but really who cares when you have to explain why your character is worse for having the weapon or why you just forgot how to speak elvish (if you took the points out of speak languages) or a number of things from ancient history or several important magical theories that you have known like the back of your hand for several years. It just ticks me off when you lose stuff like that. I don't care that it's their idea of balance woopt-de-doo-doo the whole concept of the drawbacks has logic wholes, in more than a number of cases. Er keep a useless skill maxed? Where? I don't remember ever reading a class like that. I know of some that it's a good idea to keep skills maxed but none that are required.
Xeviat-DM 04-21-06, 01:09 AM	Typically, you never loose more at each level than you would have gained that level; so it doesn't feel like a loss, it feels like you just gained your ability slower. And a single attack bonus point is worth less than a single point of BAB (BAB contributes to multiple attacks), and a spell slot is worth less than a caster level (caster level contributes to over all spell strength). The book is designed around the idea that you'd be handing out these weapons early in the game. And what I mean by "keep a useless skill maximized" would be if the class required Knowledge (History) ranks to access certain weapon abilities, to simulate that you've been studying the weapon's past.
Mist of Shadows 04-21-06, 03:26 PM	Xeviat-DM Typically, you never loose more at each level than you would have gained that level; so it doesn't feel like a loss, it feels like you just gained your ability slower. And a single attack bonus point is worth less than a single point of BAB (BAB contributes to multiple attacks), and a spell slot is worth less than a caster level (caster level contributes to over all spell strength). Sure that's fine if you have the weapon while leveling. It falls to pieces of crap if you get the weapon later. The book is designed around the idea that you'd be handing out these weapons early in the game. Yeah well what about taking them from the dead big bad that has one. I would be higher then level 5 at that point in some games. So I do the ritual and find that I lose skills and such things. Ah joy great and bag of smelly horse crap. The logic of the world just suffered another defeat. And what I mean by "keep a useless skill maximized" would be if the class required Knowledge (History) ranks to access certain weapon abilities, to simulate that you've been studying the weapon's past. I agree that would be a stupid concept considering it lets you have other people make the lore check in the book. So I don't see why you would need to have the skill. You could just pay people to research it. I'm not complaining so much about the balance of the abilities just the (to me) stupid way they are enforced.
Lord Schpungus 04-22-06, 06:46 PM	So I do the ritual and find that I lose skills and such things. Ah joy great and bag of smelly horse crap. The logic of the world just suffered another defeat. But look what you get in return: An Artifact! With powers you could never hope to gain normally unless you multiclassed heavily into spellcaster! It's such a small price to pay, I don't see why people are kvetching. It must just be the 'free lunch' cravers.
Mist of Shadows 04-22-06, 07:52 PM	Lord Schpungus Quote: Originally Posted by Mist of Shadows So I do the ritual and find that I lose skills and such things. Ah joy great and bag of smelly horse crap. The logic of the world just suffered another defeat. But look what you get in return: An Artifact! With powers you could never hope to gain normally unless you multiclassed heavily into spellcaster! It's such a small price to pay, I don't see why people are kvetching. It must just be the 'free lunch' cravers. First BLAHHH I say. Most of the legacy weapons are hardly on par with artifacts, oh wait never mind 3rd ed and such took a nerf bat to artifacts. So yeah I guess your right. They are probably close to some of the weaker artifacts. That being said a number of the weapons of legacy aren't worth it for spell casters. Maybe I'm just bitter because of that. (most likely) for the fighter types they are probably a better deal. As they don't have to relie on a magic type to enchant their things. It's not losing the points that bothers me, I don't really care about a few lost points here and there. What bothers me is the logic. It's not like the sword drains you of the power, it gives crap for a rational for losing the abilities. It's one of the worst parts of the book. I guess I'm just ****** that you can't increase the legacy weapons via enchanting or such. Or that they don't list a cost for some of the more interesting legacy abilities. Or heck give better details on how to enchant a weapon as a legacy weapon. I mean that seems sort of fun. Or what type of magic other then the prestige class would be needed to change a legacy weapons powers. (either evil or good or what not.) As for the requirements (imnsho) it's a stupid way to go about trying to balance a weapon. If you pick one of the things up after level 5 you basically lose abilities you already earned. That just seems like a shallow thing. Maybe I just look at the legacy items as crutches. When is the last time you looked at the One ring from tolken and thought hey I wouldn't mind having that. I don't really think the costs are better then what you get in most cases. But that really isn't the point it's the poor execution of the drawbacks that I complain about.
Phoenix Knight 04-23-06, 12:53 PM	As far as the One Ring goes, perhaps something more along those lines would make items more iffy, but allow them to be more powerful, and satisify your desires, here. Something that gradually corrupts can be more dangerous than the lose of a few skill points. You could also have such an item slowly weaken the person, draining Con, or something.
rydi123 04-24-06, 10:52 PM	i feel rather strongly about this topic, so this will be a little long, but please hear me out. if you get bored w/my explanation, just skip to the end where i give my recomendations for improving legacy items. Magic items since 2nd ed have undergone many changes for the better. the standardization of abilities, the creation rules, xp costs, etc have made the game more streamlined and versatile. but. the magic items have lost much of thier flavor as well; if you dont believe me just take a look back at the old encyclopaedia magica stuff in the swords section. shanadine's holy avenger, celestial fury, etc all had great personality and roleplay value, not to mention great abilities that made them seem like the cool magic items out of books and movies. the new items, even the most powerful, are still rather mundane. cloak of charisma +6, +4 holy shocking longsword. what happened to the neat little flavor abilities like your sword always pointing to magnetic north or letting you resist the flames of the dragons you are fighting? because i was looking forward to the return of 'cool' magic items (and, believe it or not, for story and feel purposes rather than simple power gaming) i was enthused to see weapons of legacy come out. until i read it. and here is what dissapointed me: 1-the items remove abilities. while maybe this works from a game balance perspective, it only rarely makes story sense. further, these supposedly powerful characters wielding thier legacy weapons are actually less proficient overall than their equal level counterparts. fighters with melee legacy weapons cannot shoot bows as well as other fighters, and if they have to change weapon types to circumvent dr, they are again at a disadvantage. mages are in the same boat, as they lose spell versatility for a few extra casts of a spell, a feat much better accomplished by a standard staff or a ring of wizardry. all character classes are more vulnerable to damage due to save and hit point loss. 2-despite a gold point advantage in using a weapon of legacy, there is little if any reason to use one over a standard magic weapon that you could gain at around the same level. lets look at two examples: a)caput mortem-it gives you a +10 weapon with an unseen servant ability (+5 unholy vicious wounding), but in actuality it is a +9 (-1 attack) with another +1 spent on an ability very few would choose on a weapon (vicious). further, you lose 12 hit points, which is 1-2 lvls worth of hp depending on the clerics con mod, and you lose an 8th lvl spell slot. the weapon costs 52,700 in rituals vs. 162,00 for a standard +9 weapon (that could be found 'free' as random treasure after medium and high level encounters). b)desert wind-one of the best items in the book imo, but giving horrible penalties. you get +6 dex, several neat spell like abilities, q.draw, and a +7 weapon (at least a 160,00gp after all the spells are acounted for). but you take -3 attack, -15 skill pts (3 feats of open minded), -2 hp (worth almost a feat of toughness), and -2 save penalty (worth a feat in the form of iron will, g.fortitude, etc), making the weapons abilities much less meaningful. your final weapon, after negatives, is a +4 weapon (+1/+3 worth of abilities) that gives you +6 dex and -4 feats for for 55,000gp, roughly half of what the actual price of the weapon should be (around 110,000 when the negatives are taken into account). as you can see, the weapons, even after bonuses and neat abilities, are rather mediocre, and cost many feats worth of class benefits, a commodity much more meaningful than the boatloads of gold available in most games. 3)the epic leagacies are worthless compared to a standard epic item. the advances that are made are not worth sacrificing an epic feat for every new ability and losing 3 hit points (worth a feat of toughness) at 2/3 of your levels. this lack of worth effects roleplay poorly as well, as the characters are forced to abandon their wonderful legacy items in favor of bland but much more beneficial epic items 4)you can not have a legacy item that has cool abilities and is of equal power to the highest level standard equipment, for game balance reasons i assume. so, the awesome legacy item is never going to have a +10 bonus unless it forgoes all other abilities, making it just a bad version of a standard item. you can not have a +10 item that also gives you other abilities unless you break the legacy creation guidelines. 5)while the item construction lists are fairly long, most of the realy unique/interesting abilities are reserved for the premade items, again i assume for game balance. one could always pull abilities from the premade items when creating a new legacy, but that becomes a bit hard to gauge and is not technically in the rules --------------------solutions------------------- in my campaign i run the premade items without any costs at all. when any of the players i have spoken to (my games and others) look at legacy item costs they are at best less enthusiastic, and at worst refuse to even use them. legacy items are, for the most part, just glorified magic items with a few extra abilities that could be found by combining several magic items. they do not dramatically increase the power level of the game and actualy serve thier intended purpose: making the players excited over thier cool magic item and integrating it into the roleplay of thier character (as opposed to tossing on thier new belt of strength and never mentioning it again). the only time i consider using the costs for items is when i create a legacy item, as i generally optimize them. the premades do not make the items as powerful as the rules allow them to be, so if you go about creating your own i would advise some costs. costs if, due to either making your own legacy items, or a dislike for players getting neat magic items for free, i would recomend using the following as a guidline. option 1-good) require they use real feats for the purchase of legacy item feats. this is silly in terms of story imo, as feats to me are about getting neat improvements to personal abilities, not dumping into a single item, but this provides a fairly good balance in game terms for the abilities garnered, at least for the better legacies. option 2-better) very similar to option 3, figure out the gp cost of the item, then use normal item creation rules. this is a great option, and would be best, except that it is a pain to calculate at every level and it does not account for the benefit of the weapons added versatility option 3-best) use one of the charts for characters that get their own magic weapons as a class feature (samurai in rokugan, kensai in comp. warrior, crystal weapon master in mind's eye archive). while not technically equal to the actual item creation xp, it does give you a nice handy chart to use, and it is a bit more expensive than the normal item creation xp, balancing the added benefit of the versatility of the item. anyway, thanks for reading through this rather long post, and i hope it helped to illuminate the flaws in the WoL book and to give a few more options to those dissatisfied w/the current legacy item penalties.
Mist of Shadows 04-24-06, 11:51 PM	I happen to like some of the second edition items though in theory some of the guidelines are better. But the flavor went to hell. As for the legacys it's a flavor issue. I like having interesting things, and like rydi123 I was excited to get the book, untill I actually read it. It's my least favorite book taking the place of the psionic book in disapointment value. I don't really see a balance issue with just tossing them in without the drawbacks. I just usually edit out some treasure at a later date. Or I just don't worry about it, they just aren't that powerful.
rydi123 04-25-06, 02:07 AM	exactly.
starfire311 04-25-06, 09:19 AM	Let's look at the basic penalties okay? Table 4-1 penalizes -2 attack (not base attack), -3 saves (not base saves), and -16 hp. Ok I just want to take this one as an example, so, how much would it cost to buy magic items to offset these. I am not the best at magic item caclulation. Lets say, we want a +2 insight to attack, +3 Luck to saves and +16 HP. start with +2 insight to attack this would be like 2,500 x 2^2 = 10k GP +3 Luck to saves This would be 2000 x 3^2 = 18k GP +16 HP is kinda hard how about trying to do a +1 HP/level item so it actually gives you +20 at level 20. So I would guess an "other" bonus to Con is like 25000 GP x X^2 or in this case 25000 GP x 2^2 = 100k GP I would divide it by 2 because we only want the HP bonus and not the save and skill bonus so it would be 50k GP for an item that gives +1 HP/level So in my estimation the value of the penalty in this case is about 78K GP. Since you are saving 200K GP, according to Xeviat-DM, by getting a WoL, you are still netting 122k GP on the plus side at level 20, this seems pretty fait.
Archangel62 04-26-06, 02:40 AM	Actually the thing of it is this, the legacy items don't make you spend feat slots, you get those feats for free when you do the ritual, they're quite handy that way. Now, for the penalties, the idea that I always had was the idea that the person invested themselves into the weapon, gave of their body and soul to unlock the power unearthed within. Now, that isn't always perfect but then I've had a couple games where characters have founded legacy items. I do modify things a bit though when I do it, I lower the penalties for the founders because I figure that the weapon draws that energy to maintain the bond with the new wielder that it gained almost instinvtively with it's original founder.
Mist of Shadows 04-26-06, 03:09 AM	(this first part was writen before Archangel62 posted but got saved till the server was back to working for me) Well you're missing our point. The point is that it's stupid to have a weapon drain your essense in such a stupid way. You would be better off without the legacy weapon than with it. you say we save 200k gold that's a lie. You aren't saving that much, One, Only rarely have I seen anyone actually put enhancements on the + of a weapon. In my experience it's either +1 or +5 maybe +4 if that's all you can squize in by normally if that is the case you go with +1 then greater magical weapon it. So you really lose out on some abilities that you could have stuffed into the sword. As for your custum magical items to make up for the legacy weapon I have two issues with. One and probably the biggest one it's metagame thinking. You as a character don't know you just got screwed over. With the exception of the spell slots because wizards and sorcs and such can count those. You don't really know that the legacy weapon is making you just a touch slower (reflex) or not as hardy to poison (fort) or slightly dupy (will) even the hp wouldn't be noticable to a character. Maybe once it was bad enough they might start to notice that they weren't as strong but by that point you would have leveled and the random nature of hp would have covered it. I'm not saying the player doesn't notice and spit fire (or not) about it. But the character wouldn't notice all that much. (unless high level person grabbed it and lost a lot of things at once) And even if you did notice you probably couldn't pin it down in character. The second lessor problem I have with that is sure you could use magical items to cover the weapons drawbacks but that means that you are using up that type of bonus to cover a game balance issue. It just some how seems cheap to metagame and cover that. Wanting save bonuses isn't metagame, nor is wanting to be better at smashing things. I guess you could make an item to cover the loses with a wish. Actually that's not a bad idea use a wish to create an item to cover the loses caused by the legacy weapon. The wish would fill in all of the drawbacks with the enchantments you mentioned or maybe even just a bonus. It would cost a lot of exp (thus balance for someone :)) but that avoids the metagame issue. That might be worth it. I just don't see them as all that powerful. The only way I see to really break them it to level drain a legacy champion then have them change a legacy weapon a few times to fix the stupid parts of it. Now to Archangel62 We know that the weapons of legacy don't cost you feats. The founding gives you the feats... for gold... Oh big freggy deal. My plus 5 longsword gives me the feat using me for free. Granted I have to be able to use a long sword. Sorry that's my sarcasm seeping in. Basically saying that you don't need feats to use other magical weapons so getting the feat for "free" isn't a big deal. Archangel62 Has a good point about the investment of soul, doesn't mean it's not a stupid waste of abilities. The weapons of legacy in the books suck for the most part. They have some interesting ideas for special abilities but they fall short. What I will say for the book is that they did wonderful write ups of the items themselves. The back story and short adventures are great and I will probably find myself using some of them at some point. As for the mechanics of the system I have to say they suck. I can't find a single weapon in there I would use. There is only one ring item in there I might use, if I was desprite. (this next part might not be true for everyone but ask youself if it's true for you.) Here is the downside the weapon takes up a weapon slot in the dm's mind. Wth does that mean you ask? Well the dm looks over at Bob the fighter and he has this "neat" (watch the sarcasim flow) legacy sword, so when the dm is figuring out treasure he skips bob the fighter because he has a sword already. So really once you start on the path of bob the fighter with the legacy piece of trash everything you do is based on making it not suck. You pay people to research the item or you put skill points in history so you can make checks. You buy items to get back what you would have had before. The problem with people comparing things is this. You build weapons bit by bit as you level, you drop coin into it now and then. You might not have that much money but you try. You can put anything you want (that you can afford) into the item. Legacy items on the other hand are immune to being enchanted. You can't increase their power other then by leveling, oh big deal weee what's the point even intelligent magical items are more interesting and potentially powerful then the legacy items.
Xeviat-DM 04-26-06, 03:22 AM	Ok I just want to take this one as an example, so, how much would it cost to buy magic items to offset these. I am not the best at magic item caclulation. Lets say, we want a +2 insight to attack, +3 Luck to saves and +16 HP. start with +2 insight to attack this would be like 2,500 x 2^2 = 10k GP +3 Luck to saves This would be 2000 x 3^2 = 18k GP +16 HP is kinda hard how about trying to do a +1 HP/level item so it actually gives you +20 at level 20. So I would guess an "other" bonus to Con is like 25000 GP x X^2 or in this case 25000 GP x 2^2 = 100k GP I would divide it by 2 because we only want the HP bonus and not the save and skill bonus so it would be 50k GP for an item that gives +1 HP/level So in my estimation the value of the penalty in this case is about 78K GP. Since you are saving 200K GP, according to Xeviat-DM, by getting a WoL, you are still netting 122k GP on the plus side at level 20, this seems pretty fait. Decent break down. I wouldn't charge 50k for an item that gives +1 hp/level, especially since the feat Greater Toughness (requirement +2 base Fort) gives this to you. And a feat is worth about 2,000 gp. Also, Insight to attack should probably cost closer to 1,500 x enhancement squared (since +1 enhancement to hit costs 1,000 x enhancement squared, and +1 enhancement to damage costs 1,000 x enhancement squared). I do agree that the epic versions were very very very weak.
rydi123 04-26-06, 05:43 AM	Decent break down. I wouldn't charge 50k for an item that gives +1 hp/level, especially since the feat Greater Toughness (requirement +2 base Fort) gives this to you. And a feat is worth about 2,000 gp. Also, Insight to attack should probably cost closer to 1,500 x enhancement squared (since +1 enhancement to hit costs 1,000 x enhancement squared, and +1 enhancement to damage costs 1,000 x enhancement squared). I do agree that the epic versions were very very very weak. i suppose this is just a value judgement on my part, but i would never, never, never, never pay a feat to get 2000gp, but i would give many times that amount to get a feat. gold is replenishable, but feats only come every 3 levels (or more depending on your class, but you get the point). i do agree with you xeviat-dm about the insight not being at a high enough cost in the above analysis. the problem also is that the items, after accounting for penalties, are not really as expensive as has been stated in many of the previous arguments. if you calculate a +10 weapon that gives -2 attack as 200k gp, you would be incorrect, as the actual effect would be as a +8, which costs only 128k gp. because items become drasticaly more expensive as thier bonuses go higher, the +'s cannot be equated to a smaller, separate bonus such as the +2 insight listed in the above example. really, when you take into account the actual price after penalties, you dont end up saving that much money, and what you save is not worth being stuck with a sub-par weapon at higher lvls. further, the logic of 'filling in' the penalties with other items is questionable. think about it, if you didnt have the penalties, you could just have bonus points to attack/saves/skills/etc. instead of having to just come out even. i do agree with the investment of soul, but that is far better represented by expenditure of xp, and xp is used to represent soul/life energy in almost all other cases in the d&d system (level drain, spell casting, item creation, resurection, etc.). with xp expenditure, either based on item creation feats or the xp charts for characters like the kensai, rokugan samurai, or the crystal weapon master, you generally dont lose more than 10,000k xp. that is several levels at low lvl, but in the mid lvls is only one lvl, and in high lvls is very little. the losses from a legacy weapon however, are effectively several levels, and their loss is not lessened at higher lvls. using desert wind from my previous example, you lose roughly 3 lvls if you are a warrior (-3 att, -15 skill, -2 save, -2 hp), and desert wind is one of the best weapons in the whole book. there are worse items in WoL by far.
starfire311 04-26-06, 08:50 AM	Well you're missing our point. The point is that it's stupid to have a weapon drain your essense in such a stupid way. You would be better off without the legacy weapon than with it. you say we save 200k gold that's a lie. You aren't saving that much, One, Only rarely have I seen anyone actually put enhancements on the + of a weapon. In my experience it's either +1 or +5 maybe +4 if that's all you can squize in by normally if that is the case you go with +1 then greater magical weapon it. So you really lose out on some abilities that you could have stuffed into the sword. As for your custum magical items to make up for the legacy weapon I have two issues with. One and probably the biggest one it's metagame thinking. You as a character don't know you just got screwed over. With the exception of the spell slots because wizards and sorcs and such can count those. You don't really know that the legacy weapon is making you just a touch slower (reflex) or not as hardy to poison (fort) or slightly dupy (will) even the hp wouldn't be noticable to a character. Maybe once it was bad enough they might start to notice that they weren't as strong but by that point you would have leveled and the random nature of hp would have covered it. I'm not saying the player doesn't notice and spit fire (or not) about it. But the character wouldn't notice all that much. (unless high level person grabbed it and lost a lot of things at once) And even if you did notice you probably couldn't pin it down in character. Yes it was metagame thinking, that was the whole point, Someone had already calculated the value of the weapon, and people were still complaining about the penalties, so I tried to estimate the value of the penalties. Based on this if a player wanted to I would probably let them use a secondary ritual at each level to remove the penalties... I would probably value the secondary ritual at Least Removal = 15k gp, Lesser Removal = 30K gp, Greater Removal = 55K gp And the whole idea about not using better than a +1 weapon because of greater magic weapon and wanting to get bonus damage on it is rather metagish too. Although I can do the math and there are many times that a +1 > elemental enhancement. Seriousilout think about it the elemental enhancement gives on average +2.5 damage to a limited numebr of tagets in exchange for a +1 to attack... I know power attack at +1 for +2 damage aint a great trade off. The problem is the greater magic weapon, and it always will be... it is just rather powerful for one spell to remove the need for anything greater than a +1 enhancement bonus.
Mist of Shadows 04-26-06, 12:20 PM	starfire311 Sorry I didn't mean to sound insulting about the metagame thing. I just wanted to mention that it was metagaming.. Any ways I like the idea of a ritual or something to tune into the weapon to drop those penalties. I would probably use a legacy weapon if I could do that. As for the greater magic weapon spell, it's well broken :) I changed it in my game so that it replaces the other benifits from weapons rather then stacking. It went a long way towards changing the loading up of special abilities on weapons. Some people still did but most of the fighter smash and bash went with as high a bonus as they could get. I liked that solution a lot better. (but that's a house rule.) Question though. I would probably value the secondary ritual at Least Removal = 15k gp, Lesser Removal = 30K gp, Greater Removal = 55K gp Would you charge them exp? such as 1/25 exp or a set amount? I mean while charging them gold is sort of a balance I think as the people say exp is soul energy. Maybe removing the benifits would be better dealt with exp.
rydi123 04-26-06, 06:50 PM	hmm...secondary rituals. pretty good idea actually, especially for those disturbed by getting 'discounted' items and the imbalance that could cause. i might just use that in my game instead of or in addition to the xp cost idea.
starfire311 04-26-06, 07:21 PM	starfire311 Sorry I didn't mean to sound insulting about the metagame thing. I just wanted to mention that it was metagaming.. Any ways I like the idea of a ritual or something to tune into the weapon to drop those penalties. I would probably use a legacy weapon if I could do that. As for the greater magic weapon spell, it's well broken :) I changed it in my game so that it replaces the other benifits from weapons rather then stacking. It went a long way towards changing the loading up of special abilities on weapons. Some people still did but most of the fighter smash and bash went with as high a bonus as they could get. I liked that solution a lot better. (but that's a house rule.) Question though. Would you charge them exp? such as 1/25 exp or a set amount? I mean while charging them gold is sort of a balance I think as the people say exp is soul energy. Maybe removing the benifits would be better dealt with exp. If I were to go the XP route I would have them pay XP and gold for the ritual, all rituals need some materials. I would go 1/25 xp and then 1/2 the gold values I listed... actually that may work out even better. I may also add level requirments to performing them so you have to live with the penalties for a little while, perhaps 7, 12 and 17 so, Least removal = 600 xp, 7.5k gp, Min level 7 Lesser Removal = 1200 xp, 15k gp, Min Level 12 Greater Removal = 2400 xp, 30k gp, Min Level 17 That would seem fair to me... but obviously YMMV BTW the effects of the ritual would be to reduce your effective level when determining the penalties IE Least removal gives a -5 to your level, Lesser gives -10, and Greater gives -15... so at level 13 if all you have is least removal you would count as level 8 for the penalties.