Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gavinfoxx 05-19-07, 12:37 AM	Just wondering... what house rules are needed to make grappling, as a combat style, not suck? Specifically for a powerful build reaping mauler type character... what are the weaknesses of grappling as a combat style, and what sorts of house rule feats or classes could help overcome that, especially against traditional D&D monsters?
Vaelan 05-19-07, 01:21 AM	Houserules aren't necessary. Polymorph could be necessary to grapple some of the more extremely strong opponents.
CaoSlayer 05-19-07, 12:26 PM	grappling is a very balanced fighting style, it is based not in raw damage but in hampering your oponent, by example a grappler vs a two handed wielder will have the upperhand since they cant use their weapons. Same with a caster trying to cast something with material component. Anyway if you wants to break the balanced, look at OA`s grappling feats.
droolcules 05-19-07, 12:55 PM	Grapple is ok, but for creatures with several attacks, high strength, large size and natural weapons it is perhaps overly devastating. The only thing underpowered I see is that very large creatures should be able to grapple and move without movement restriction.
Nathreet 05-19-07, 01:33 PM	enlarge person I don't think house rules are necessary. As for the two-handed weapon character being grappled, that's yet another reason to always carry a dagger. And to travel with allies.
Khementari 05-19-07, 03:02 PM	Any attack that needs at least 3 rolls to figure out what happened is waste of time. Grappling needs to be streamlined and I'm hoping those crazy guys working on the SAGA system thought up something nice.
Vaelan 05-19-07, 03:33 PM	The only thing underpowered I see is that very large creatures should be able to grapple and move without movement restriction. You can, if you take -20 to your grapple checks. You're basically grappling them as a free action because it is so damn easy. Any attack that needs at least 3 rolls to figure out what happened is waste of time. Grappling (touch attack, grapple check, damage), Trip (touch attack, Strength check, free attack roll, damage), critical hits (attack, confirm, damage)... The list goes on.
Gavinfoxx 05-19-07, 05:30 PM	The thing is, grappling is usually done in light armor or no armor (monk, some prestige classes based on grappling that require light armor or less) and causes you to lose your dex to AC, and be a sitting target for anyone who wants to hurt you... and you can't do attacks of opportunity, so you cant control the battlefied like a spiked chain tripper character can... it only works on one being at a time... I dont see how it is 'balanced'. To me, it seems like a terrible waste of time if you actually want to hurt someone be effective in a large fight, which a character with reach and lots of AoO would be able to do... I guess you could play a druid and wild shape into animals that are good grapplers?
Vaelan 05-19-07, 07:31 PM	It doesn't make sense to attack a grappler. They aren't in your way. As for the issue of large battles, if you routinely fight large battles, a grappler isn't going to be effective. It is, and should be, a focused effort to disable one person. Even if you go with Polymorph, which is superior to Wildshape for grappling, you won't be able to pin anything worth grappling with a -20 to your checks.
TheDarkLord 05-19-07, 07:49 PM	Grapplers, in my opinion, do tend to suck. Don't get me wrong, they are great as long as the size catagories don't get to far apart. Strength and Size modifiers tend to ruin many PC grapplers in a hurry. Also, just the silliness of a human grappling a colossal creature just makes me shake my head.
Krusk 05-19-07, 11:00 PM	[QUOTE=Gavinfoxx;12436406]Just wondering... what house rules are needed to make grappling, as a combat style, not suck? QUOTE] None. Especially if you are going into reaping mauler. Just be aware if you are a wrestler you will not be the main tank, and be prepared to be the secondary fighter/mage killer. Your stratigy becomes run up and jump onto whoever is closest first and do not let go. If you grab a mage hold on for dear life and pound the crap out of him. dimensional shackles might be worth buying. If you grab a fighter type chances are he is not a grappler, so just jump onto him. then have your buddies then stand next to you and finish him. Even if he is managing to fend you off, he is busy with you and essentially out of the fight. If you want to be picky about who you do and do not grapple, look for anyone with a ranged weapon. They really hate you grappling them. If you are in a fight against one big monster grapple it. At least you will distract it for everyone else. Boots of haste/anything of flight are usually worth the money. As is anything to improve inititave. faster you can grab on the sooner they are out of the fight. I'd buy a ring o water breathing and you are basically set to jump onto any opponent you can see. flying opponents? sea monsters? Monks? you can easily catch any of them. If you have reaping mauler, grapple, knock out your opponent and then move to another. I would also like to suggest the unarmed combat feats. superior unarmed strike and the like. so you can deal some damage while youve got them. Stunning fist is always fun to use befor the grapple attempt too.
NoldorForce 05-20-07, 12:33 AM	One houserule is required. Namely, banning or severely changing Freedom of Movement. Just look at the spell - it completely hoses attempts to use grappling offensively.
Krusk 05-20-07, 03:10 PM	One houserule is required. Namely, banning or severely changing Freedom of Movement. Just look at the spell - it completely hoses attempts to use grappling offensively. That is quite obnoxious, and the best way against it is to have your buddy cast dispel magic. One houserule could be "if you have freedom of movement you can grapple people with freedom of movement".
NoldorForce 05-20-07, 04:59 PM	There are certain beings that have non-dispellable versions of FoM, such as Vow of Poverty characters. Still, that one houserule (that FoM cancels itself if both beings have it) will go some distance.
Jaxgaret 05-21-07, 01:12 AM	Any attack that needs at least 3 rolls to figure out what happened is waste of time. Grappling needs to be streamlined and I'm hoping those crazy guys working on the SAGA system thought up something nice. Roll two d20s at the same time when you Grapple. One color for the Touch Attack, and a different color for the Grapple check. Heck, roll your damage dice at the same time. Now isn't that an easy solution, without changing all the rules?
Khementari 05-21-07, 10:25 PM	No, it's a waste of time. You keep rolling all the dice you want; I would prefer a better system. Heck, roll them all at once and color-code them, who would have thought... Now isn't it easier to keep your little thoughts to yourself when you think you're be funny and condescending? The thread is called "What house rules are needed to make grappling not suck?"
Shaftiel 05-24-07, 12:31 PM	I use a few: 1) FoM grants a +20 bonus to escape grapples instead auto. 2) Monks can use flurry to gain extra grapple actions. 3) A half-dozen new grapple feats and 3 PrCs. More feats, IMO, are the most important part to making it viable... there just aren't enough feats in the WotC books for a character to really specialize. By adding a bunch of feats you make it a much more viable option. 4) A Fighter-only feat that allows fighters to do grapple damage as though a monk of equal level. This makes dedicated grapple fighters >> grapple monks in straight fights, which is how I think it should be. -Shaftiel
not Yoda 05-24-07, 10:04 PM	No, it's a waste of time. You keep rolling all the dice you want; I would prefer a better system. Heck, roll them all at once and color-code them, who would have thought... Now isn't it easier to keep your little thoughts to yourself when you think you're be funny and condescending? The thread is called "What house rules are needed to make grappling not suck?" I'm with Khementari on this. I unfortunately do not have a solution for th O.P. I may be able to help if I have more information. Gavinfoxx, you're question can be interpereted two ways. How can I make the grapple system not so godawful? This is the place for you. Or, How can I make this character a powerhouse? In which case, you're better off at the CharOp section of the boards.
Gavinfoxx 05-25-07, 12:26 PM	I want the powerhouse character, and I have asked on the charop boards... I was hoping here could help too... and god, reaping mauler sucks...
Krusk 05-25-07, 01:06 PM	I want the powerhouse character, and I have asked on the charop boards... I was hoping here could help too... and god, reaping mauler sucks... you might want to relook over that class. if you are a grappler it allows you to knock out an opponent. He has to save every round unless he can somehow escape. Which if you did it right he cannot. Eventually he is unconscious. Then you just sit on him a couple more rounds and he is dead. It is great at the same things all grapplers are. Dealing with a single opponent. If you want an unarmed fighting powerhouse who can also grapple play a monk, unarmed fighter, or druid. If you want a grappler you have to understand that running up and grabbing a guy and rolling around, is usually not the best plan if your goal is to take out 14 people.
Gavinfoxx 05-25-07, 01:10 PM	From the short guide to grappling on CharOp (which I just found): "Non-synergistic Prestige Class: Reaping Mauler. Never ever ever take Reaping Mauler. It requires Clever Wrestling. Clever Wrestling has a prerequisite of Medium or smaller. Therefore, if you drink a potion of Enlarge Person, or otherwise enlarge (which grapplers should always be shooting for), your entire "grappling prestige class" turns off. It's idiotic. Plus, its abilities all suck, except the +2 to grapple checks you get across 4 class levels, and even that is pretty mediocre compared with what you get for, say, 5 levels of Bear Warrior (Large Size, Improved Grab, and greatly improved stats)." Also the save or die DC is very very low... and lots of things are immune to save or dies... you want to be able to not get hurt (which means heavy armor) and do damage (which means constrict, large size, high unarmed strike, etc.)
not Yoda 05-25-07, 04:17 PM	From the short guide to grappling on CharOp (which I just found): "Non-synergistic Prestige Class: Reaping Mauler. Never ever ever take Reaping Mauler. It requires Clever Wrestling. Clever Wrestling has a prerequisite of Medium or smaller. Therefore, if you drink a potion of Enlarge Person, or otherwise enlarge (which grapplers should always be shooting for), your entire "grappling prestige class" turns off. It's idiotic. Plus, its abilities all suck, except the +2 to grapple checks you get across 4 class levels, and even that is pretty mediocre compared with what you get for, say, 5 levels of Bear Warrior (Large Size, Improved Grab, and greatly improved stats)." Also the save or die DC is very very low... and lots of things are immune to save or dies... you want to be able to not get hurt (which means heavy armor) and do damage (which means constrict, large size, high unarmed strike, etc.) Hmm... How about a 1/2 dragon monk +4 natural armor +8 to strength +2 to con cha and int, breath weapon can be used during grapple. LA +3 so your attack bonus is the same as a monk without the template. Immunity to sleep and paralasys darkvision 60' and so on. all in all pretty nasty if you are a large race to begin withthings go out of kilter for combat BUT you can fly.
Gavinfoxx 05-25-07, 06:05 PM	LA+3...? Right. Uhm, no races more than 0 hd and LA+1, kthx... I want to HELP him, not HINDER him...
trapspringer 05-25-07, 07:12 PM	Haha. Oh..., Wow. No, but really. Yea. Grappling doesn't even a little suck. Play test it some time in a party of four against a boss fight. 1. Cleric enlarges grappler. 2. Grappler clamps down on Boss. 3. Rogue sneak attacks boss. 4. Wizard runs crowd control until boss is dead. 5. Proceed to kill minions. 6. Profit. I've run four grapple-fighters now with different DMs, most recently a warforged berserker rage variant barbarian with a sixteen strength score and no damage-dealing capabilities to speak of (that is to say that he was in no way equipped with spiky armor or feats like Earths Embrace) who proved to be generally invaluable for negating enemy spell casters and crippling the damage dealing abilities of any beater we came across.
not Yoda 05-25-07, 10:49 PM	LA+3...? Right. Uhm, no races more than 0 hd and LA+1, kthx... I want to HELP him, not HINDER him... For a monk that really doesn't hinder him. Other classes yeah but not monk. Here Lvl 7 1/2 dragon human monk (from the DMG upgraded with temp) and corrected AC 21 (+4nat,+2dex+1bracers+1ring,+2wis,+1monk ) HP 49 Saves +7/+7/+7 Flurry of blows +10/+10 damage d8+6 average if both hit 21points grapple +15 (taking optional improved grapple) Movement rate 50' This guy also has 6d8 breath weapon and is immune to corresponding energy type is immune to paralasys, and sleep Lvl 10 human monk (corrected) hp 58 AC 20 (+2dex,+1amulet,+1ring,+1bracers,+3wis,+ 2monk) Saves +8/+9/+10 Flurry of blows ++9/+9/+3 damage d10+2 average is ALL 3 hit 22.5 grapple +13 (also taking optional improved grapple) movement rate 60' No breath weapon, not immune to energy of any kind,still vulnerable to sleep and paralasys And with UA you can eliminate the LA it costs some xp but you still gain on the human in levels but not much by level 20 I picked the monk because his abilities help overcome the grapplers drawbacks wich are. You have to be in melee to grapple. And as you can see monk doesn't lose much by taking the 1/2 dragon template in fact it improve the area that monks need the most help in, offense.
MageWeasel 05-27-07, 11:43 AM	Look dog, if you want to make grappling less time consuming simply remove the need for a touch attack to initiate the grapple. Those with improved grapple could do so without provoking AoO. Most of the time touch attacks hit anyway. If you wanted to reduce the amount of rolls even more, have the grappler roll a grapple check against the targets AC, instead having an opposed roll. This makes for a rather unrealistic approach to grappling and I would never use these rules in my game, but hey, if all you care about is not "waisting time" then there you go...
trapspringer 05-27-07, 07:24 PM	As with most mechanics, an increased familiarity from all parties involved will greatly increase the speed with which a given mechanic can be handled.
TheDarkLord 05-27-07, 09:28 PM	Haha. Oh..., Wow. No, but really. Yea. Grappling doesn't even a little suck. Play test it some time in a party of four against a boss fight. 1. Cleric enlarges grappler. 2. Grappler clamps down on Boss. 3. Rogue sneak attacks boss. 4. Wizard runs crowd control until boss is dead. 5. Proceed to kill minions. 6. Profit. I've run four grapple-fighters now with different DMs, most recently a warforged berserker rage variant barbarian with a sixteen strength score and no damage-dealing capabilities to speak of (that is to say that he was in no way equipped with spiky armor or feats like Earths Embrace) who proved to be generally invaluable for negating enemy spell casters and crippling the damage dealing abilities of any beater we came across. Thats funny. How about grappling a creature more than two size categories larger eh? What about massive strength differences between a PC and a huge creature? Then throw on top of that the Size increase. If you are not larger than Huge, grappling sucks. The only way it is viable is if you face off against creatures and villians around your own size. Get much farther off and the Size difference kills a grappler.
trapspringer 05-27-07, 10:16 PM	What level are you playing at? If your much over level twelve the exact nature of your fighter is really rather moot, isn't it? I mean, no fighter build can go toe-to-toe with much of anything (possible exception: archers). Further, by the time you are of a level to be fighting colossal creatures on a basis regular enough to invalidate your build, you will (or could) have access to spells which increase your size to greater than large. Besides, a +8 bonus from size and a strength advantage of 10 (or +5) shouldn't really be that big a deal on a well-built grappler with decent caster support. That's only a difference of 13. Bull's strength, enlarge, and improved grapple will net you +11, and that's not even pulling in anything far-reaching. That's just core. The bear totem barbarian from UA saddles you with an additional +4 or +5 on grapple checks on top of that and gorrilian's blessing will give you another +4. This is all before factoring in BAB, by the way, which if you are a full BAB class will be better than any monster of your HD or lower and as good as many monsters of greater HD. Even then, you don't actually have to win the grapple to be extremely effective. You just need to be able to hold the guy at dead-lock (that is to say, you need to not get pinned and by extension eviscerated, and you must maintain the grapple). Meanwhile your party can function and your enemy cannot. Admittedly you may not be able to win the encounter by yourself, but if you look at it as an equation wherein your party of four has an offensive value of four (one for each member) and the boss fight has an offensive value of four (four for the one boss), you can reduce the value of the boss's side of the equation by four for the cost of reducing the value of your party to three. Trust me, the three members of your party will mop the floor with the zero combative enemies. Even in a standard fight, you will at least break even by negating one opponent for the loss of one team member, and most monster fights will feature at least one monster that is a markedly greater threat than the others, even if they are all ostensibly of the same CR (like an enchanter and a couple of fighters). Besides, being able to grapple well doesn't mean you always will. A level eight grapple-fighter can kill kobolds with a sword, too. It just means your specialty is eliminating a high-threat opponent on round one of combat.
trapspringer 05-27-07, 10:23 PM	Also, just the silliness of a human grappling a colossal creature just makes me shake my head. Ever see Dragonheart? How 'bout Dune? Open your mind a little, would ya? Most of the things that seem illogical in D&D stem from an unwillingness to try to think of a way for that thing to be logical.
InsertNameHere 05-27-07, 11:53 PM	Just wondering... what house rules are needed to make grappling, as a combat style, not suck? Specifically for a powerful build reaping mauler type character... what are the weaknesses of grappling as a combat style, and what sorts of house rule feats or classes could help overcome that, especially against traditional D&D monsters? Oh, this is way too easy. Just remove the Goliath's level adjustment.
TheDarkLord 05-28-07, 07:14 PM	Ever see Dragonheart? Nope. How 'bout Dune? Nope. Open your mind a little, would ya? Most of the things that seem illogical in D&D stem from an unwillingness to try to think of a way for that thing to be logical. Heh, I do that alot actually, especially when it comes to combat. I'm just saying, how do you grapple a creature when the only thing you can actually wrap your arms around to grapple on a large creature is it's toe. What level are you playing at? If your much over level twelve the exact nature of your fighter is really rather moot, isn't it? I mean, no fighter build can go toe-to-toe with much of anything (possible exception: archers). Further, by the time you are of a level to be fighting colossal creatures on a basis regular enough to invalidate your build, you will (or could) have access to spells which increase your size to greater than large. Assuming your spellcasters are of the generous sort and actually prepare said spells. Why would they I don't know, their are much more efficient ways to end combat. Besides, a +8 bonus from size and a strength advantage of 10 (or +5) shouldn't really be that big a deal on a well-built grappler with decent caster support. With caster support any thing is possible, but let's focus in on the fact's at hand. Grapplers on their own suck. Even then, you don't actually have to win the grapple to be extremely effective. You just need to be able to hold the guy at dead-lock (that is to say, you need to not get pinned and by extension eviscerated, and you must maintain the grapple). Meanwhile your party can function and your enemy cannot. Assuming you actually "Grapple" said person or creature. And even then that isn't a good idea with larger creatures. They can still make full attacks with their natural weapons (against the grappler most likely) at a -4 penalty and use any SLA's they have. Admittedly you may not be able to win the encounter by yourself, but if you look at it as an equation wherein your party of four has an offensive value of four (one for each member) and the boss fight has an offensive value of four (four for the one boss), you can reduce the value of the boss's side of the equation by four for the cost of reducing the value of your party to three. Trust me, the three members of your party will mop the floor with the zero combative enemies. Even in a standard fight, you will at least break even by negating one opponent for the loss of one team member, and most monster fights will feature at least one monster that is a markedly greater threat than the others, even if they are all ostensibly of the same CR (like an enchanter and a couple of fighters). Grappling is not a good tactic. Ranged attacking with spells is a much better tactic. In close quarters, a Mobile meatshield is still a better option than a grappler, he can engange and tie up more than one opponent, especially when built as a battlefield controller rather than a damage dealer. In a standard fight, you might, if you get lucky to trade 1 for 1 with a grappler, if not, your grappler is in a bad position and the spellcasters are open for charging tactics. Besides, being able to grapple well doesn't mean you always will. A level eight grapple-fighter can kill kobolds with a sword, too. It just means your specialty is eliminating a high-threat opponent on round one of combat. I wouldn't call it a specialty, any BBEG would be stupid to just let the fighter waltz up and attack him. What happened to his henchmen running interference? That's kind of arrogant to assume that a grappler can just walk up and grab ahold of any enemy don't you think?
trapspringer 05-28-07, 07:46 PM	I will admit that a lone character of the martial persuasion is not as generally capable as an arcane or divine caster. Drat. You got me. I will even go so far as to say that without caster support, this characer option is inviable past level eight. Wow, you're on a roll. (As a side note, what first level spell do your party casters have that will take down a BBEG?) Ooh. I almost forgot. The same is true of every fighter (save archers). NM. One more thing: With caster support any thing is possible, but let's focus in on the fact's at hand. Grapplers on their own suck. That situation is immaterial to the discussion at hand. D&D is a game about a party of characters. The game is balanced with that in mind. To remove any character from the party system is to fail to accurately evaluate that character's abilities. Also, if you haven't seen or read Dune, [i]the[i] science fiction book, you really oughta' go address that now. You can't reasonably claim to be a member of the geek community without having read the book or at least seen the movie. I mean, shoot, you damn near lose this exchange by default.
TheDarkLord 05-29-07, 01:03 AM	I will even go so far as to say that without caster support, this characer option is inviable past level eight. Wow, you're on a roll. (As a side note, what first level spell do your party casters have that will take down a BBEG?) Sleep and color spray for starters. One more thing: That situation is immaterial to the discussion at hand. D&D is a game about a party of characters. The game is balanced with that in mind. To remove any character from the party system is to fail to accurately evaluate that character's abilities. Yes, it is about a party. And in a party, a grappler is highly inefficient compared to your standard sword and board meatshields. In a party of four, switch out that Meatshield with a grappler and see how bad your party suffers, especially at lower levels. Also, if you haven't seen or read Dune, [i]the[i] science fiction book, you really oughta' go address that now. You can't reasonably claim to be a member of the geek community without having read the book or at least seen the movie. I mean, shoot, you damn near lose this exchange by default. Well, I am not what you would consider a "Geek" or a Nerd". I grew up dirt floor poor, played varsity football for four years and then played in the SEC for four years as a starter (Except my fourth year when I was injured most of the season). Were it not for my ankles and knees I might very well be playing in the NFL. Even after College I am a business Manager making a good life for myself, my wife, and my two children. Just because I happen to Like DnD and D20 modern as hobbies, doesn't mean that I have to fall into the stereotypical "Nerd" or "Geek" role in life. F**K that!. I like to go out and drink whiskey with my friends. I like to go out and shoot off a shotgun in the middle of the night because I can. Just because I refuse to follow the "Culture" of DnD players, doesn't make me less of a "DnD" person.
trapspringer 05-29-07, 02:57 PM	What the hell knida' BBEG has four HD? A grappler is not highly inefficient compared to a sword-and-board fighter. Switch in a grappler instead and see how it works some time. (See how that's not really an argument?) If you actually do switch out a grappler for your sword and board guy (instead of just talking about), you will find he is capable of fighting in a more standard fashion when the circumstances call for it (such as when the party is up against lots of little guys). He is a fighter, after all. He's got full BAB, lots of HP, a good AC, and a really high strength. He can kill **** just like your sword and board fighter. He can also negate and/or solo one-off high-threat creatures. I'm done with this argument. Play test it some time for yourself. I have. It works. Re: Rant Does too. :p
RainerNader 05-29-07, 03:03 PM	In the past I played a Half-Giant Cleric with the Strength domain with Improved Grapple (Enlarge Person), and he was actually pretty awesome. The key is that he wasn't a grappling one-trick pony, and I think that's where your problem is. Too many situations make grappling an ineffective strategy. But that's when I would rely on cleric spells or simple melee.
TheDarkLord 05-29-07, 11:34 PM	What the hell knida' BBEG has four HD? The kind you face at 1st and 2nd level when Color spray and Sleep are effective spells in combat. A grappler is not highly inefficient compared to a sword-and-board fighter. Switch in a grappler instead and see how it works some time. I have. (See how that's not really an argument?) Nope. If you actually do switch out a grappler for your sword and board guy (instead of just talking about), you will find he is capable of fighting in a more standard fashion when the circumstances call for it (such as when the party is up against lots of little guys). I do not allow "Oriental" themed classes in my campaign because they don't fit. I do have a Greco Roman wrestler class though that borrows from the monk/fighter/Reaping mauler I allow my players to choose from. I've had people take it because it seemed powerful at first, but it was extremely limited because the Combat style is intensive to pull off. Not to mention extremely limited in use. And no, he is not as capable as fighting in the standard fashion just using regular non-homebrew classes to build a grappler. A grappler is highly feat intensive. While a Sword wielding power attacking fighter is spending feats to deal massive damage, the grappler is spending feats on, well grapplingand they arenot even adding damage to his attacks. He is a fighter, after all. He's got full BAB, lots of HP, a good AC, and a really high strength. He can kill **** just like your sword and board fighter. He can also negate and/or solo one-off high-threat creatures. You're right, he is a fighter, and has all the drawbacks of one as well. Not to mention he's dumping feats left and right and multiclassing out the wazoo just to specialize in a combat style that is inefficient for the most part. Sure, once in a blue moon he can negate a high threat creature, assuming you as the DM play said creature with a lower intelligence. One thing DnD combat is good at simulating is Guerrilla Warfare. Most of my games are highly combat focused and very demanding of the PC's to actually know and understand the rules. At 1st and 2nd level, half my party is still scared to death of ******* off commoners because an ambush is devastating on the party. I'm done with this argument. Play test it some time for yourself. I have. It works. I have playtested it several times just to try to get my Wrestler class to be somewhat effective. Strategy kills a pure grappler, they are too easy to negate during combat. Any BBEG with an intelligence of 13+ is not going to allow a grappler to get anywhere near him.
trapspringer 05-30-07, 01:19 PM	OK, so I wasn't gunna' post anymore after that last one, but I swung by 'cause I noticed someone other than you had posted something yesterday and I couldn't help but skim your most recent post. Holy ****. Are you serious? I mean, do you really think that last post in any way supports your argument? "I know they suck because I made a custom class and it didn't work." Gee, that's really convincing. :rolleyes: And what does an "oriental" character have to do with anything? Oh, and what feats are they spending to do this "massive damage" that your assert? Why can't a grappler also take these feats? You say grappling is feat-intensive. That is blatantly untrue. What feats are you dolling out to your crappy home-brew ( I only say "crappy home brew" because you yourself have indicated that it sucks)?
Krusk 05-30-07, 02:51 PM	I have playtested it several times just to try to get my Wrestler class to be somewhat effective. Strategy kills a pure grappler, they are too easy to negate during combat. Any BBEG with an intelligence of 13+ is not going to allow a grappler to get anywhere near him. boots of teleport/item -gem?- of true seeing helps greatly for grapplers. Try playing them smart as well. Dimensional shackels are pretty funny as well. Blood hound/justicar and have those 3 items. You can beat generally most mages. locate enemy with true seeing. teleport. and shackle all in one round. Also i believe i saw an item somewhere, that were essentially mage shackles. They negated magic use by the person shackled in them. If those were official items they would be very handy.
TheDarkLord 05-30-07, 07:21 PM	Holy ****. Are you serious? I mean, do you really think that last post in any way supports your argument? "I know they suck because I made a custom class and it didn't work." Gee, that's really convincing. :rolleyes: Heh, it was a better grappler than you can make using the current rules. I mean think what you will, grappling is still a completely inefficient combat form compared to others. And I mispoke when I said feat intensive, I meant multi-class intensive, especially if you go into Monk, reaping mauler, or that tatooed monk along with Fighter, marshall, or swordsage. Grapplers should also have Superior Unarmed strike, Improved Natural attack, Spring attack, and other feats. Most of them are going to be ignored by a weapon focused melee combatant in favor of power attack (Which you can't use with UAS), Shock Trooper, and the great Martial Study feats. boots of teleport/item -gem?- of true seeing helps greatly for grapplers. Try playing them smart as well. Dimensional shackels are pretty funny as well. Blood hound/justicar and have those 3 items. You can beat generally most mages. locate enemy with true seeing. teleport. and shackle all in one round. I don't think you can cast true seeing, teleport and then use the shackles all in one round. True seeing and teleport are both standard actions, and I believe Dimensional Shackles have to be put on a creature so that in itself is another round. Freedom of movement, Fly, Invisibility, Save or Die, Contengiency, all of which are standard caster strategies are going to kill a grappler. Dimensional Shackles These shackles have golden runes traced across their cold iron surface. Any creature bound within them is affected as if a dimensional anchor spell were cast upon her (no save). They fit any Small to Large creature. The DC to break or slip out of the shackles is 30. Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, dimensional anchor; Price 28,000 gp;Weight 5 lb.
trapspringer 05-30-07, 10:38 PM	No wonder your grapplers suck, you have no friggin' clue what your talking about. What the hell is spring attack for? Monk? Why? Seriously, dude, you gotta stop shootin' yourself in the foot in this conversation. I might as well let you talk for both of us. Your letting your (screwy) notions of what is "good" futz with your ability to build a functional grappler. I mean, disarming your opponent is an effective strategy. No, it doesn't have the compensatory factor that saying "I deal forty-seven damage" carries, but it's still a scary build that can invalidate any opponent reliant upon manufactured weapons. There are more ways to be "good" than to deal lots of damage. Also, your firm beliefs that A) people always fail their saves and B) sword-and-board guys can see invisibility, fly, and ignore contingency both trouble me. I think your DM is doing it wrong....
Xeviat-DM 05-31-07, 12:22 AM	Grappling is just fine at low levels. At higher levels, grapplers need a feat to be able to grapple creatures more than 1 size larger than them, and some way to negate their opponent's size bonuses, otherwise its impossible. Grapple is a way to deal damage to things with rediculous ACs. In a game I'm running right now, the party fighter has a 22 AC at 2nd level, and he is very difficult to hurt in combat, but grappling enemies are able to damage him. It is also a great tactic against singular opponents; if you build yourself right, and are reasonably confident that your grapple modifier exceeds theirs, you can keep them focused on you and use your strength to keep them from attacking. I've made two feats in my game that have made grappling useful at higher levels. Greater Grapple allows you to make a free grapple check after an unarmed attack or an attack with a light weapon, and Supreme Grapple allows you to grapple creatures up to 3 sizes larger than you and grants you a bonus to your grapple checks equal to half the difference between your size bonuses. Both of these have let grapplers go into higher levels. The only thing I would like is final official word on natural attacks and grapple checks. Do you get a number of grapple checks equal to your attacks determined by your BAB, or do you get a grapple attack for every attack you'd be able to make (so one for each natural weapon)? Both answers have been given in the past.
Krusk 05-31-07, 04:50 PM	And I mispoke when I said feat intensive, I meant multi-class intensive, especially if you go into Monk, reaping mauler, or that tatooed monk along with Fighter, marshall, or swordsage. Grapplers should also have Superior Unarmed strike, Improved Natural attack, Spring attack, and other feats. Most of them are going to be ignored by a weapon focused melee combatant in favor of power attack (Which you can't use with UAS), Shock Trooper, and the great Martial Study feats. I don't think you can cast true seeing, teleport and then use the shackles all in one round. True seeing and teleport are both standard actions, and I believe Dimensional Shackles have to be put on a creature so that in itself is another round. First- why would you go into monk marshal or swordsage to be a grappler? why take spring attack or improved natural attack? those classes really are not necessary, and the other ones you listed are more optional than anything. As for those feats you listed, those are at best helpful for a grappler but not at all necessary. Spring attack is the one that really confuses me. Run in grapple... run away? Second- That is why i specified gem of true seeing, boots of teleport and the dimensional shackles. boots are swift action to use, gem is a constant effect, and either bloodhound or justicar can shackel someone as part of an attack action-away from books dont remember which class it was-.
trapspringer 05-31-07, 05:43 PM	First- why would you go into monk marshal or swordsage to be a grappler? why take spring attack or improved natural attack? those classes really are not necessary, and the other ones you listed are more optional than anything. As for those feats you listed, those are at best helpful for a grappler but not at all necessary. Spring attack is the one that really confuses me. Run in grapple... run away? Second- That is why i specified gem of true seeing, boots of teleport and the dimensional shackles. boots are swift action to use, gem is a constant effect, and either bloodhound or justicar can shackel someone as part of an attack action-away from books dont remember which class it was-. Justicar, CW.
Ack 06-05-07, 04:43 AM	I've trimmed the Grapple rules down in my own houserules: Once a Grapple is initiated, only one opposed Grapple roll is made per turn. Grappling is a full-round action, so the results only come up at the end of the round; once you enter a Grapple, or have a Grapple inflicted on you, you don’t have an Initiative score any more. Each character in a Grapple defines his objective for the opposed roll before he makes the roll. The options in a Grapple are: · Escape from Grapple/Pin · Institute Pin · Maintain Grapple/Pin · Inflict Damage · Other Action Escape from Grapple/Pin vs Maintain Grapple/Pin Unless your opponent is working to Maintain the Grapple or Pin, success in this objective grants you immediate escape from the Grapple. If you were Pinned, it brings the situation back to a Grapple. If your opponent was working to Maintain the Grapple, the margin of success is multiplied by 10% and applied as a level of ‘escape’ from the Grapple or Pin; this carries over from round to round and when it reaches 100% you have escaped. This can also go the other way; successes in Maintaining the Grapple can cost you percentages in your level of ‘escape’. If a character ceases working to Escape the grapple and starts another line of endeavour, the ‘escape’ percentage drops immediately to zero with no further action by the other person in the grapple. A character in a player-vs-player Grapple does not have to let the other player know what his intent is before he rolls; the GM, however, must be informed. Judicious uses of Bluff and Sense Motive may give one character or the other an advantage… Institute Pin A Pin cannot be instituted if the other person has any levels of ‘escape’ percentage going. These must be reduced to 0% before the opponent can be Pinned. Inflict Damage Damage is inflicted as per normal; the opposing character's Grapple check counts as his Defense. Other Action Any other action (such as moving while in a Grapple) can be attempted; failure means it doesn’t happen. Any tie in an opposed Grapple check means that neither party succeeds; there’s just a lot of grunting and straining and shifting of holds.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 05:46 PM	I've trimmed the Grapple rules down in my own houserules: WOW you not only break all the grapple rules, but you break the core D&D rules too. IE you can tie on an opposed roll. As with another post on this same subject, your rules take many things, like haste, out of the fight. I can't believe it takes 10 rounds to break a grapple in your game. This just amazes me. I found that the easiest thing to do was to read all the rules and make a chart for combat. It is one page. When to characters start a grapple their minis are romoved and added to the sheet. There are 4 sections on the sheet Starting a grapple Grappling Pinned Pinning Each section has a list of what a person in that 'condition' can do. Move the minis into the right condition as the checks are made. I found this sped up grappling. It made it much more fun. It made it so that all sides new what was going on, rather than having to rehash the entire combat each time there was a grpple check. Send me a PM is you want a copy of the sheet. I made it in excel, but can convert it to a PDF if you need. Happy Gaming!
Ack 06-06-07, 08:26 AM	WOW you not only break all the grapple rules, but you break the core D&D rules too. IE you can tie on an opposed roll. As with another post on this same subject, your rules take many things, like haste, out of the fight. I can't believe it takes 10 rounds to break a grapple in your game. This just amazes me. This is only true if you only beat the opposing grapple by 1 each round. If you beat the opposing grapple roll by 5 for two rounds running, you're free. Or if your opponent is attempting a damage action rather than maintaining the grapple, and you win ... you're free. As for haste, I'd have to read up on it and evaluate.
Werral 06-08-07, 12:58 PM	Here's another idea: Each character/monster has a Grapple AC. Your grapple AC is your Touch AC+Str bonus+size bonus (bigger is better) To grapple: Roll to hit VS your opponents Grapple AC. If you hit you pin them and all further grapple rolls are at +2. Each round either opponent can make an attack roll: Improve hold: Make a grapple roll to add a +2 circumstance bonus to all further grapple rols and add a -2 circ. penalty to your opponentsl. These bonus/penalties can stack up to +6/-6. Throw: Make a grapple roll to treat your opponent as tripped. Attack: Make a grapple attack to inflict your normal unarmed/natural attack damage. Free Weapon: Make a grapple attack to free a dagger or similar. If you succeed you can make a weapon attack vs your opponents Grapple AC (it's easier for you to get to chinks in their armour, but it's easier for them to hold you back if they're strong/big)
elondir 06-08-07, 01:11 PM	One of my players has a grapple-intensive build that puts his check at around +37 when enlarged, at tenth level. I don't think any houserules are required other than the aforementioned FoM grants +20 to escape instead of automatically.
Cheza 06-08-07, 03:46 PM	What the hell is spring attack for? Monk? Why? Spring attack does two things: First, you can move before AND after your attack and second you do not provoke AoOs from the attacked opponent due to your movement So a grappler needs spring attack to negate the moving AoOs. I mean, disarming your opponent is an effective strategy. No, it doesn't have the compensatory factor that saying "I deal forty-seven damage" carries, but it's still a scary build that can invalidate any opponent reliant upon manufactured weapons. There are more ways to be "good" than to deal lots of damage. Sunder??? If you deal 47 damage, you should sunder that weapon instead of disarming your foe. Disarm and grapple are weak strategies. You spend a lot of efforts AND rolls into it, just to do something useless. Disarming your opponent as a strategy is weaker than sunder it. How often did you fight against monster, that rely on manufactured weapons and disarm did better than normal damage??? Grappling is a roll orgy, but in the end you do nothing. Also, your firm beliefs that A) people always fail their saves Jep, most opponents do. Take the weakest save and choose the spell for it. So in 80%+ you beat it. (Did I mentioned feats?) and B) sword-and-board guys can see invisibility, fly, and ignore contingency both trouble me. I think your DM is doing it wrong.... I think the problem with casters are clear. But if you focused on grappling you need moments, when you outstand the damage-focused guy. So the damage guy beats the hell out of any bigger creature. So what can a grappler do??? You would expect, that he can solve problems where damage isn't that effective. But even against mages, grappling sucks. So for what is a grappler good for? Second- That is why i specified gem of true seeing, boots of teleport and the dimensional shackles. boots are swift action to use, gem is a constant effect, and either bloodhound or justicar can shackel someone as part of an attack action-away from books dont remember which class it was-. [justicar] So you find a blue moon situation. Congratulation. I do not know the exact number of gold pieces, but a swift teleport shouldn't be quite cheap. As for a true seeing gem: 6x11 (spell lvl) x 2000gp (continuous) x 2 (min/lvl) x 2 (no space limitation) x 12500 (50x material) = 540.500gp That would be the "normal" calculation rule. :eek: So even if you find a much cheaper version that doesn't require hands (you need them to shackle your opponent, the wizard still can slip out of them by much cheaper means. All you need is to make your forearm thicker than your hand, so a simple padded brazer (or a normal metal bar around your arm) should do the trick. Even I can build that. And if you look for a spell => a swift gaesous form, blink, reduce person, ... should be enough. I will admit that a lone character of the martial persuasion is not as generally capable as an arcane or divine caster. That is the right answer. So if a grappler can't handle larger monster and can't handle spellcasters, when do you think you need to grapple??? For me, disarm and grapple are specials that can be good for roleplaying, but not as a good combat maneuver. That situation is immaterial to the discussion at hand. D&D is a game about a party of characters. The game is balanced with that in mind. To remove any character from the party system is to fail to accurately evaluate that character's abilities. You think D&D as a balanced game *whuahahaha* :evillaugh To be serious. Whenever someone lacks of good arguments, one thing never dies: "They (the designer, government, whatever) know what they are doing!" Come on. They are just humans like you and me. Look at haste or all the other things that changed with 3.5 Ed. THEY DON'T KNOW IT... they guess!!! I don't want to say, that to play as a party isn't a good thing to do, but D&D is far away from being balanced or being a party-supporting game. Look at True Seeing. Does this spell effect each party member?? => No. So it doesn't support the play as a party, when only one player can act against a monster. However, fly, dimensional door, summon monster, invisibility, fireballs, magic missiles are spells that will make many encounters useless. Did your wizard ever use mass fly or grater invisibility on any other character??? Than you will know, why games like Neverwinter Nights or Oblivion don't allow these spells or weakened them. (or give opponents unusual abilities). I remember some Eldar Scrolls games, when the final monster died easily, because he couldn't fly. And if it would be balanced, your characters wouldn't be so dependent on certain magical items. (see gem + teleport + prestige class) And as a GM, it's easy for me to use all the same tricks my players do... And I know, that D&D is in a galaxy far, far away from a balanced one.
trapspringer 06-08-07, 04:11 PM	Don't even come in here talkin' 'bout balance sayin' "spring attack does two things." It does three things, foo'. It lets you move after you attack, negates the attack of opportunity for the guy you attack, and it waste a feat. Three if you count the prerequisites ('cause I hate to break it to you, but dodge sucks and mobility is for rogues). If you want to sunder the expensive uber-sword, go 'head, but it's coming out of your share of the loot. If you wanna' talk about moments when you, outstand the damage-focused guy, fine. I don't. Such instances are anecdotal and prove nothing but that D&D is a very versatile system. Anytime some one points one out, you'll just say, "So you find a blue moon situation. Congratulation." Grapplers fail their saves no more often than standard fighter builds. Also, that D&D is balanced on the idea of a party doesn't mean it is balanced. Don't be pedantic. Also, grapplers specialize in large monsters. It's one of the things a well-built grappler does better than anyone else. And if it would be balanced, your characters wouldn't be so dependent on certain magical items. What game have you been playing? Why are caster's spells so hard to resist? It ain't that +3 from charisma, it's that +6 cloak of eagle's splendor he had custom-made last time you were in town coupled with the rose-colored lenses of domination. Why are barbarians able to hit for so much damage? 'Cause they're packin +3 adamantine great swords to get past the DR and make sure they can actually hit that AC.
Cheza 06-08-07, 04:43 PM	Three if you count the prerequisites ('cause I hate to break it to you, but dodge sucks and mobility is for rogues). Rogues use tumble. If you want to sunder the expensive uber-sword, go 'head, but it's coming out of your share of the loot. If you really fight against monsters with expensive uber-swords, you should have other problems. And if each opponent has a highpower weapon, you should have to much money for your level. Also, that D&D is balanced on the idea of a party doesn't mean it is balanced. Don't be pedantic. It's even not balanced "on the idea of a party". Also, grapplers specialize in large monsters. It's one of the things a well-built grappler does better than anyone else. Well. Big Monsters = high HPs = many grapple attacks. So just kill them by normal means (damage or spells) would be much better. When I said, that D&D isn't a balanced game 'cause you are dependent of magical items, it includes all characters. However even without magical items, any high-level mage is MUCH better than any fighting class. So as a party, your GM has to SEARCH for / DESIGN some circumstances so that any character can be outstanding for a moment. If he doesn't, many character builds - including grapplers - are useless... and even if he does, it will be only for a few seconds.
trapspringer 06-08-07, 07:36 PM	Wow. You actually managed to miss the point on, like, every one of those. Huh. Go figure. Lemme' spell it out for you real slow, point by point. Mobility (and this is peripheral to our discussion, but since you can't stay focused on the argument and must instead nit-pick off-hand comments I make, I'll oblige you on this point): Rogues can only tumble so quickly but they are dependent entirely upon positioning for their damage-dealing abilities. If they want to be effective in combat, they need to be where they need to be. Plus when they miss that tumle check (and for those of us who actually play through the levels rather than starting at 15 with 42 pt buy this does happen with moderate frequency) it will prevent you from being ripped apart. It's even not balanced "on the idea of a party". I'd like to respond to that, but I'm not really sure what you are saying. Are you saying that it was designed with the idea of a party in mind? Are you saying the encounters weren't assessed their challenge ratings based on the effects they would have when put up against a standard party of four? 'Cause I think I could find a source stating just that. Just so we're clear, a game that's balanced in this way have power levels described with the understanding that they would be faced by or fit into a party of characters who would each contribute in a certain way. As such, those classes or challenges can't be directly compared to another class or a challenge for the sake of evaluating effectiveness in standard play. Disarm (again, not really the point of discussion): Even if the enemy is just swinging masterwork longs words, that 150gp a pop (don't waste your time, I know and don't care). There are obviously other reasons. Maybe you don't have a thirteen strength. Maybe you don't want to take two sets of feats and yet you still want to be able to disarm (in the contemporary, non-specific sense) any tool-using baddies you come across. It isn't better, but it is certainly the equal of sunder. Well. Big Monsters = high HPs = many grapple attacks. So just kill them by normal means (damage or spells) would be much better. That's asinine. Not only isn't it necessarily true, but you're ignoring so much in your slanted evaluation I can't even summarize it in a snarky sentence. The problem here is that you are so fixated on proving me wrong that you aren't slowing down to evaluate your own arguments or examine them in any other than your own highly specific context. Further you are falling prey to the notion that more damage is better. Dealing more damage might make you feel "bigger," but it isn't necessarily better when you are functioning in a party. That last part of your post isn't anything I haven't been saying all along. I'm not sure you really know which side of what argument you are on, here. Maybe you should read the thread.
Krusk 06-09-07, 04:36 AM	So you find a blue moon situation. Congratulation. I do not know the exact number of gold pieces, but a swift teleport shouldn't be quite cheap. As for a true seeing gem: 6x11 (spell lvl) x 2000gp (continuous) x 2 (min/lvl) x 2 (no space limitation) x 12500 (50x material) = 540.500gp blue moon/good build idea whatever you want to call it. boots o'teleport DMG - 49k ah but as i look it is a standard action, shouldnt cost too much more to make it a swift one. Gem of seeing- DMG- 79K Thin rope to tie gem over eye like an eye patch-PHB- negligable Dimensional Shackles- DMG- 28K total price- 156k + whatever it takes to make the boots swift action. alone this is just over average gear for a 14th level character. With the added price of increased boots, a character can have this much loot by level 15, 200k. I'm betting the increased cost isnt hugely over that. honestly, isnt there an "instant teleport spell" that instantly moves where you are to somewhere else? im sure ive seen one, and think it was lower level but it was much less distance. If im not making that up use it instead. Throw it on a throat slotted item or somesuch.
ruff0126 06-09-07, 06:50 AM	Krusk, forget magic and use psionics. 1st level power dimention hop 10ft teleport as a swift action and every caster level you boost it you gain 5ft extra range. To all the nay sayers about grappling actually look at the feats and prc's in the books, you can make a character that can grapple a collasal creature and beat every grapple check in all the MM's(not EHL) bam at least one creature out of combat. IMHO
Krusk 06-09-07, 04:43 PM	Krusk, forget magic and use psionics. 1st level power dimention hop 10ft teleport as a swift action and every caster level you boost it you gain 5ft extra range. could be the one i was thinking of, there we go to drop the price even more. Whats funny about this scenario, is that about level 14 casters are starting to get access to the spells that make them really hard to hit, -greater invis , displacement, teleport ect every combat- so it seems like maybe almost intended to allow someone who wanted to combat them to gain access to the items needed to stop them at the same time. also im sure you could get custom dimensional shackles to only work maybe 20 min a day instead of unlimited if you needed to drop the price again.
Lindwyrm 06-09-07, 05:21 PM	I've never found grapple to suck. Yes, it can be difficult to pull off unless you can negate the attack of opportunity when you try to initiate the grapple, but it is devastating when it works correctly. Grappled = No Dex No Dex = stabbed to death by party rogue. Often with two weapons. We even had our rogue and druid grappling (in human form for the druid) against things the fighter didn't want to go near. (Rust Monsters...).
shout27 06-21-07, 05:43 PM	The scary thing is that I see a relatively easy Monk/Fighter Grapple Manuever. Joint Break: Creature at most 1 size Larger than you, Heal Check to recognize the correct angle of attack, Grapple Check and hit breaks targeted limb.
Lindwyrm 06-21-07, 05:45 PM	OK, nice idea, but remember the rest of the system tends to use non-specific damage. Suggestions for effect on this?
shout27 06-21-07, 06:18 PM	For Starters only available to those with both Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, other than that it would depend on the creature. For a Standard Humanoid that arm is gone unless they get a healing spell to fix it, I would also guess it'd be a Strength Check DC 10-30 with variables being Constitution, Size, and variation of limb structure. Carrying Capacity Penalties could be a factor but adding something like that can wait. Other than that the victim could get a Fort. save to retain an item in it's hand. Obviously, this for all of it's usefulness would be worthless against a Slime.
trapspringer 06-21-07, 09:35 PM	I think penalties are suggested in the DMG. Obviously a popped leg would halve your speed. A blown-out elbow would probably be sufficiently demonstrated by disallowing the use of the arm. In combat, only having one hand really sucks.
shout27 06-21-07, 10:12 PM	You do realize that while exceedingly painful for the victim, such a thing would make disabling an enemy for information alot easier. I shudder to think of the Intimidate bonus one would get for doing that to all four of a person's limbs.
shout27 06-21-07, 10:15 PM	Also, if a character makes such a thing a regular method of attack i can easily see him carrying an instant use healing item, for that off-chance of it happening to him. personally i'd say that anything less than "Heal" must actually be used on the Limb itself to restore it, with a Cure SW being the minimum strength needed to restore the arm immediately. though i'm not sure if 2 CMWs would equal such a thing.
trapspringer 06-22-07, 01:45 PM	Nah, a DC 15 heal check coupled with any magical healing should be enough. The precedent has been set by items and spells with similar effect.