Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir Aramil Liadon 10-29-07, 10:12 PM	The most exciting encounter I have run as a DM was with a group of 1st & 2nd level characters attempting to commandeer a pirate ship at port. I pit them against overwhelming odds and watched as they used every attack option in the book for fear of loosing what few hit points they had. As they advanced to the point where they had enough hit points that they could survive more than a couple hits, combat went from feints, bull rushes, trips, disarms and creative uses for ship's rigging to "will that be a single or full attack this round?" They just lose that creative edge in combat. The Plan: Characters no longer recieve maximum hit points at 1st level. Instead they must roll for hit points. At each level, they gain 1 additional hit point and may reroll their hit points taking the higher of the two results. For example, Bannon Bloodmere takes wizard at first level, he rolls a d4 for hit points and manages to roll a 4. At 2nd level he has the maximum hit points for his class, so he does not roll. If at another level he takes a level of cleric, he rolls a d8 for hit points, if he rolls higher than a 4, he uses that result for his base hit points. This means that a 20th level fighter (with around 30-33 hp) still has think weather or not he wants to face off with the dozen city guards come to arrest him, one good critical and he's toast. My dilema isn't weather or not to adopt this system, its how to make challenge ratings work as lower level NPCs are more dangerous and higher level are not as overwhelming, but an adult black dragon (CR 11, 199 hp) could give an epic character a run for his money if he's not careful.
vorpo 10-30-07, 12:16 AM	That means creatures too don't get HD either. 1 critical and boom goes the great red wyrm dragon... wait, that's not all... the critical is done by a lvl 1 fighter.
Sir Aramil Liadon 10-30-07, 12:45 AM	I was refering to level based Hit Dice, Creatures retain racial Hit Dice. The great wyrm red dragon, would be just as powerful as it was.... but an even nastier threat. In effect, characters without racial HD that advance by character class (i.e. all the standard races) get only 1 HD + Con mod + 1 hp per class level. Anything else would remain the same. Not that it has any relevance on what I need help with, but I am also using the armor as DR rules from the Unearthed Arcana (Keeps them alive longer). My players, skeptical at first (obviously), have come to appreciate my twisted logic and are willing to forgive what is destined to become a very high PC mortality rate as we trade "kick in the door" for strategic D&D.
Golem1972 10-30-07, 12:49 AM	My groups been taking a break from DND, and switching to Call of Cthulhu. We're playing the D20 version. The large number of hit points you get at higher levels kind of blows that feeling of mortality you get at lower levels. So, here's what we did to tone it down. Hit points at level one equals the characters constitution score (Creatures of size Large or bigger get extra hit points like constructs). No hit points are gained through levels or hit dice. Hit points can only be gained through Con increases, Toughness Feat, Improved toughness feat (with a cap on how many times it can be taken). Damage taken that is greater than the characters or creatures con score results in a "Death by massive damage" roll.
Sir Aramil Liadon 10-30-07, 01:15 AM	Thanks, I'm glad someone understands my train of thought. Still have the dilema of challenge ratings though. My group is unanimous in the system I have outlined, although yours I can see working every bit as well, if not better (I might try that in a later campaign). But as I said, CRs are my biggest head-scratcher at the moment.:confused:
Slapstick87 10-30-07, 08:07 AM	There's one big problem with this: Magic. No matter what level you are at, a sword will do 1d8 + str damage. So even with low hit points, that's survivable and realistic. Magic on the other hand does more damage per level. At 5th level a mage get's fireball, and he can instantly kill anyone with that damage. Save or not, it doesn't matter, you're still toast. Magic missiles, scorching ray etc. will kill your characters with no impunity. You would need to change magic in some way. - Slapstick
Nadaka 10-30-07, 08:13 AM	sweet. maximized magic missile becomes a no save 100% effective instant death spell. Not to mention the fact that at level 5, fireball is an area effect death effect 75% of the time unless you have fire resistance. Its bad enough in d20 modern where damage over con score forces a massive damage save. The rules you suggest make spellcasters ungodly powerful compared to mundane characters due to area effect damage spells. Even for the mundane guys, they will be doing more than their HP in damage on every attack. Why disarm or trip when every successful normal attack means you kill an enemy?
Slapstick87 10-30-07, 09:13 AM	Quick idea, here's what you could do: (or at least an idea to elaborate on) Remove magic that does damage. The mage would still have a *lot* of usefull spells to manipulate the playing field to their advantage. An advantage they'll be in desperate need of. Make Fireball, Icestorm, Lightning bolt and Acid breath into level 7 spells. At high level you'll need to pack a punch against the big nasties. Defeating a small town defence should be easy pickings for of both a high level fighter and his army, as well as a high level wizard and his spells. And about CR: Ditch it, or at least use it just for your own estimation. You'll get a feeling for what your players can handle soon enough. Give the players a level every time they complete mission instead of xp per killed monster. Combat is something they should try to avoid with these rules in any case. - Slapstick
Werral 10-30-07, 11:56 AM	You can also lower the damage from spells to max 1 die per spell level per round. So a wizard can only fire one magic missile per round even if the casting creates more spells. A fireball/lightning bolt does only 3d6. That's still pretty deadly admittedly if hit die are so low. Also how about making spellcasting slower? An initiative penalty equal to 2*the spell level (quickened spells are cast at normal initiative) would mean that others would have time to take out the spellcaster. Also you could revive the 1e/2e rule that any HP damage suffered automatically disrupts the spell being cast (with no Concentration check). Maybe you could also increazse the -hp threshold to (10+level) below zero (so a level 5 character can survive until -15 HP. At -1 to -10 a fortitude save could let a character stay on their feet and take one standard or move action per round. Also with HP so low you could use Action Points (see the SRD). APs are excessive with the standard HP system but with your system would probably work pretty well.
Sir Aramil Liadon 10-30-07, 12:48 PM	Remove magic that does damage. The mage would still have a *lot* of usefull spells to manipulate the playing field to their advantage. An advantage they'll be in desperate need of. Make Fireball, Icestorm, Lightning bolt and Acid breath into level 7 spells. At high level you'll need to pack a punch against the big nasties. Defeating a small town defence should be easy pickings for of both a high level fighter and his army, as well as a high level wizard and his spells. And about CR: Ditch it, or at least use it just for your own estimation. You'll get a feeling for what your players can handle soon enough. Give the players a level every time they complete mission instead of xp per killed monster. Combat is something they should try to avoid with these rules in any case. - Slapstick That is an excelent thought on spells, I hadn't thought about that. THANK YOU!!! That could have been disasterous. TPK from one low-level wizard. A few thoughts: One: Reduce the damage caps on damaging spells. Two: Make energy resistant items more accessable (maybe even items that grant a small degree of force resistance). Three: Go with your idea. My original thought for CR is to treat characters and NPCs as half their current level (thus a 10th level character would be a CR 5, and recieve XP as a 5th level character). Creatures with normal racial HD would maintain their original CR... just a thought. But in truth I will need to give more ad hoc rewards for skillfully defusing a situation without combat alot more.
vorpo 10-30-07, 03:00 PM	I was refering to level based Hit Dice, Creatures retain racial Hit Dice. The great wyrm red dragon, would be just as powerful as it was.... but an even nastier threat. In effect, characters without racial HD that advance by character class (i.e. all the standard races) get only 1 HD + Con mod + 1 hp per class level. Anything else would remain the same. Not that it has any relevance on what I need help with, but I am also using the armor as DR rules from the Unearthed Arcana (Keeps them alive longer). My players, skeptical at first (obviously), have come to appreciate my twisted logic and are willing to forgive what is destined to become a very high PC mortality rate as we trade "kick in the door" for strategic D&D. Now, with your way of messing with HP, you have to consider how EVERYTHING in the game deals damage. I am certain that even a lvl 20 barbarian would die from a red dragon's breath weapon. Bottomline is, the current hp system is tied closely with the damage system. You can try, but it will just kill your party really fast at mid/high levels.
Rhialto 10-30-07, 04:29 PM	My houserule on spells is that all spells that do damage based on caster level only do damage based on the lowest caster level that would normally be required to cast that spell, plus any modifications from feats (or other non-intrinsic-character-level effects) that raise the effective caster level for relevant spells.
PhaedrusXY 10-30-07, 05:53 PM	You might just consider using the E6 rules (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754), instead of trying to come up with your own system. Or at least this might be a place to start.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-30-07, 06:27 PM	You might just consider using the E6 rules (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754), instead of trying to come up with your own system. Or at least this might be a place to start. I second this. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Sir Aramil Liadon 10-30-07, 11:50 PM	Still looking for suggestions on the CR topic, but I want to take moment (i.e. an hour of typing because I am long winded) to thank everyone for their comments and suggestions thus far that have helped me realize some critical concerns before they became a problem. Vorpo I can tell that you don't like my idea of frelling with things. I'm cool with that. Your party (four 20th level fighter with 195 hp each) see a Large red dragon in their path, they charge! If they kill it before it's first turn, great! If not, oh well, 100 fire damage and we'll kill it next round. Same party, same offensive capability, only 34 hp each. Not "oh well!", try "Oh CR@P!!!" They will think of how to do it without giving the dragon a chance. It's the creative thinking and implementation that I want to reward experience for. Points for bravery? The second group has guts, the first has little to fear. Golem1972 Good job on your system. "The large number of hit points you get at higher levels kind of blows that feeling of mortality you get at lower levels." You put that perfectly. Thank you. Slapstick87 Thanks for bringing magic to my attention. You are absolutely right! a 10th level wizard's fireball deals an average of 35 points of damage. The average 10th level fighter under this system would have 21-24 hp. Little chance of survival. Nadaka even maximized, a single missile wouldn't kill anyone 3, maybe, 4 or 5, sure, but that's a 4th level spell, it should take someone out. Even for the mundane guys, they will be doing more than their HP in damage on every attack. Why disarm or trip when every successful normal attack means you kill an enemy? because they will do the same to you. Werral You can also lower the damage from spells to max 1 die per spell level per round. hadn't thought of that. I like it alot! Could be fun. My wizard's going to really hate me though... Rhialto Also a great suggestion. PhaedrusXY & Einvaldurinn_mikli The E6 rules are very interesting to me, My hats off to their creator! However, they are not for me at this time.
Nadaka 10-31-07, 12:18 AM	Nadaka even maximized, a single missile wouldn't kill anyone 3, maybe, 4 or 5, sure, but that's a 4th level spell, it should take someone out. because they will do the same to you. Not if you kill them first. If you disarm or trip a foe he can still kill you with every attack. If you kill him, he can not. This means that the only even remotely reliable way to survive is to kill your enemy before he kills you. disarm him and he can draw another weapon and then kill you. Trip him and he can get up and kill you with his next attack. By reducing the number of hp, you are actually removing the impetus to perform these kinds if actions because the risk far outweighs the reward. You will only have two actions in combat, move where the enemy can not reach you or kill the enemy.
Sir Aramil Liadon 10-31-07, 01:24 AM	I suppose that makes sense. Let me change my answer. Even for the mundane guys, they will be doing more than their HP in damage on every attack. Why disarm or trip when every successful normal attack means you kill an enemy? Because the DM is a professional swordsman and will reward them for using flashy tricks in combat. :D
Slapstick87 10-31-07, 01:06 PM	I have an idea that I think will accomplish what you want, but not in the way you might want it to. Let critical hits do con damage. The end. It's a perfect fix, it's not messy, and easy to implement. Combat will still be very dangerous, because one good hit can kill almost anyone. Your players will be interested in using any and all combat manouvers, 'cause all it takes is one good hit and they're out. - Magic can work just like it's supposed to. - Healing can work just like it already does. - Damage to constitution decrease hit points untill restored. - Fighting many small creatures will be very dangerous, because *someone* is bound to get a critical hit. - Hight level fighters are dangerous because they got multiple attacks per round and improved/power critical feats. - Low con characters will be scared ******** by combat, even if they have semi-high hitpoints. - Fighters with high constitution can take a few hits, and still keep going. However if the do take a critical hit, their hit points go down quite drasticly. - Axes are insane when they do crit, Swords are more precise weapons and crits more often. I would like you to consider this, because I really think it will accomplish exactly what you wish, without having you to rewrite the entire magic and CR system and probably just mess the game up. It's even realistic! :) - Slapstick
JimProfit 10-31-07, 02:10 PM	I like the idea magic only dealing one die per spell level damage. Cantrips: Generaly 1d3 Magic missle: 1d4 at maxiumum Burning hands: 1d4+4 at maximum (changing from mutiple die to modifier to lower it, but make it equal to magic missle. Why would you take burning hands unless it dealt more damage? Magic missle can shoot multiple times!) I think this system could generaly work. You know what I'd do to make players feel like they're not completely screwed? (It helps in getting them to cooperate) You get HP for con modifier You get that one hit die But at first level, you gain a bonus amount of HP equal to your con score! This really mathamaticaly isn't anything compared to normal dnd. Level 20 barbarian will get an average of +114hp. This new barbarian may get +18hp. +22 if he puts his score points gained by level 20 into his con-score. Toughness will become a much more considerd feat. Weapon Specilization actually seems somewhat threatning. I like this system.
Werral 10-31-07, 09:19 PM	I suppose that makes sense. Let me change my answer. Because the DM is a professional swordsman and will reward them for using flashy tricks in combat. :D Throw in Action Points and award them for doing cool/flashy and cinematic stuff.
CryoSilver 11-01-07, 06:17 PM	This system seems... unworkable. In addition to reducing PCs' hp, you are reducing their ability to deal damage to monsters with the same number of HP as before. By this system, fighters are useless, totally useless, because they do NOT have the HP to fight anything. Take the dire wolf (CR 3) for instance. It WILL instantly down any character under level 5, and it will down MOST fighters through level 9 in ONE BITE. Doesn't that sound kind of... dumb? "Wow, my fighter died again. WHAT A SURPRISE, BECAUSE THIS HASN"T HAPPENED IN THE LAST EIGHTY FIGHTS?" It also tends to adopt the attitude that hit points represent the number os factual solid blows your character can absorb before dying. Now that's just silly. Imagine the most badass fantasy hero you can. He took, what, maybe, 3, 4 solid hits before he died? He's still 20th level; it's just that only his last 10% or so hp represent his physical ability to absorb damage. The other 90% of his hp were blows he barely deflected, or that just missed, or that turned out to be just scratches. Anyways, I think what you really want is for characters to be "more realistic" for longer. In that case, just cut how much XP they get, and they'll level slower. If you try to change just one aspect of the game without considering anything else, you're going to get everything all mucked up and it won't work.
PhaedrusXY 11-01-07, 07:00 PM	I agree with Cryosilver. I don't think this system is workable without extensive modification to the entire rules system. You might consider just using another game system entirely. The Mutants and Masterminds rules are very good, and can be easily adapted to fantasy. That game deals with damage in a similiar way to what you're proposing, and you can make almost any character you want with it. It is also very well balanced overall, and the entire system is set up to use that damage system, so it works.
Sir Aramil Liadon 11-02-07, 12:36 PM	Of those out there that think that this system is unworkable (I don't care, I am still going to try it), do you think it would be slightly more workable if I gave bonus hit points per level based on the classes hit die as follows: d4s & d6s: 1 hp per level (no change) d8s & d10s: 2 hp per level d12s: 3 hp per level This would change the base hit points of a 20th level fighter from 29 hp to 48 hp; and the average 20th level barbarian from 31 hp to 69 hp (not including bonus hit points from Constitution). It still leaves a sense of mortatlity, but gives those on the front line a little more endurance. Thoughts?
CryoSilver 11-02-07, 01:42 PM	So what exactly are the changes you're making? Are you just going to take away hp? Or are you also going to be reducing damage in some fashion? Because if you just reduce hp, I can almost guarantee that every encounter after level 5 is going to end in the death of a character. Ex: Fighter lvl 5 has 14 hp. He fights a wizard. Fireball does 18 damage (on average). Fighter is dead. Fighter fights another fighter. Other Fighter Power Attacks (-3 to hit) with a greatsword. Greatsword does 14 damage. Fighter is down. Fighter fights a rogue, who sneak attacks him with a rapier. Rapier does 14 damage. Fighter is down. Etc, etc. A rogue's damage per hit increases by 1.75 per level, from sneak attack alone. A fighter's increases by 2 per level (from Power Attack). A wizard's... let's not talk about that. Add magic weapons and spells to the mix, and you'll find that damage scales way faster than your proposed hp gains, and no one has a snowball's chance in Hell of making it past level 3.
Slapstick87 11-02-07, 03:46 PM	As a sidenote I can mention that in OD&D, the game I started playing many years ago, HP where given like this: Up to ninth level Wizards: d4 + con modifier Rogues and clerics: d6 + con modifier Fighters: d8 + con modifier After ninth level Wizards: +1 per level Rogues and clerics: +2 per level Fighters: +3 per level I think that's a pretty good system.
Sir Aramil Liadon 11-02-07, 07:30 PM	I think that some people are missing the point. I want my characters to survive only a few hits. I want... no, I need them to strategize. If there is something out their that can kill them in one hit, then they may sneak around the guards, negotiate with the wizard, bribe the dragon. Who knows, maybe someone might even set a trap or look into buying poison. There are to many aspects that are overlooked when players are not afraid to die.
CryoSilver 11-02-07, 07:46 PM	But your proposal will not make them able to absorb"a few hits." It will make them die after 1 hit. A level 20 character CAN only take a few hits from a CR 20 monster/NPC. Why should he be afraid of level 1 guards, though? He's fought in thousands of battles that would kill them in an instant; he's tougher and better than them in every way. Level 20 fighter by your system has 46 hp, max. A level 6 fighter with 14 Con has 47.5 hp normally. Your character lags 14 levels behind in hp. He will die if he fights anything higher than CR 7, it is likely. There's only just so much "strategy" you can use when the dragon's strategy is "everything in this cone of fire dies instantly." Frankly, D&D is not a very good game for simulating anything other than combat, and taking combat away is like taking the fake money out of Monopoly: it defeats the purpose of playing the first place. And what's the point of leveling up (which gives you cool new powers, generally powers that involve killing stuff) if you never get to kill stuff, because you'll die instantly if you ever try to start a fight?
StruckingFuggle 11-02-07, 10:43 PM	I have an idea that I think will accomplish what you want, but not in the way you might want it to. Let critical hits do con damage. The end. I see ... a Fighter / Rogue multiclass with Throw Anything, Improved Critical, Power Critical and high hide modifiers, who lurks around throwing Rapiers or Kukris for 1d6+sneak attack con damage on a 15+... Heh, sounds like fun.
IceFractal 11-03-07, 03:35 AM	It isn't just spells. Melee damage levels up as well. If a level 20 Fighter is still doing 1d8+5 damage, he's doing something wrong. Let's take some examples: Barbarian 20 * Damage (raging): 2d6+43 (avg. 50) per hit (4 hits/round) * HP (raging): 42. * In a duel against himself, kills in one hit (KO, then dies when rage ends). Rogue 20 * Damage: 1d6+7+10d6 (avg. 45) per hit (6 hits/rounds) * HP: 28. * In a duel against himself, kills in one hit. These are not super-optimized characters, just normal melee types. I'm not sure it would create great strategy so much as "whoever goes first wins". Alternately, if you were planning to use this one for the characters and not their opponents, you could get the same effect by having them fight creatures twice their level. Not sure the players would like it, but it would give you that sense of desperation.
Daybreaker 11-03-07, 07:29 PM	The problem is with those natural 20s. If you're going to die every time someone rolls a 20 against you, no PC is going to last very long.
wordserpent 11-04-07, 04:16 PM	Consider using the default Hit Points system presented in the DM's Guide. It allows a pc to survive a few hits yet keeps the character's hit points from getting out of control. You might also cap the hit points at level 10 and only allow a set bonus as presented by another poster: Hit die HP per level 1d4 1 1d6 2 1d8 3 1d10 4 1d12 5 This will make hit dice more relavent and you won't have to alter every damage-dealing spell in the game. (What do you mean "The DM is a professional swordsman"?)
wordserpent 11-04-07, 04:24 PM	repost