What is a Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

What is a Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Khelvaster
09-19-04, 06:27 PM There are these topics about Gestalt, what are Gestalts?
UA is open-gaming liscence, so you can reproduce it.
Goken100
09-19-04, 08:16 PM Its 3rd edition's version of the multi-class characters from 2nd edition. Each character has 2 classes with all the best stuff from each class. You don't get HP, saving throws, and attack bonuses from both classes when you level up, instead you get to choose the best option from either class for every category.

This rule variant is not that realistic or fun in my opinion because, as the rule itself says, every character in a campaign needs to be a Gestalt character in order to keep things fair. I'd much rather have my characters just alternating which level they're getting.

One might wonder why Gestalt characters have to choose the BEST thing from every category. Well its the only option if you think about it. How in the world could you average the gaining of 1 to a saving throw every after level with the gaining of 1 to a saving throw every 3 levels? Its just way too messy. If one wonders why they don't just give full benefits to both classes and require double experience... that would be silly, why not just multiclass to get both levels! So there you go, I answered the question and got a chance to rant. :)
Khadesh
09-19-04, 08:22 PM It is interesting, but it is really for a group with very little players in it. Essentially you are double classes at the same time like the previous post said above me.
Razorblade Smile
09-19-04, 08:37 PM Actually it works spectacularly well to balance the system out. In a gestalt game, it's nearly impossible to have a character that sucks unless you specifically go out of your way to make that happen. And, even more than in a traditional game, characters tend to be very diverse individuals that more closely reflect what you see in fantasy film and fiction.

But because it's different from what WotC declares as game balance, it gets a lot of insulting from people around here (especially from the same people who always seem to give examples of where all gestalt characters are warrior-spellcasters -- how boringly unimaginative can you be?). Don't listen to any of them and try it out for yourself with an open mind. You might be surprised.

I know my Fighter-Rogue gestalt character has been a total blast.
Kiri Sittori
09-19-04, 09:49 PM Actually, almost any fighter combo with pally, ranger, barb, rogue, or monk is better in many ways than a fighter/caster. It's certain of those who have... curious, to be charitable, methods of determining gestalt *level-ups* that tend to tout gishy builds über alles.

If one thinks about it, a fighter/other non-caster optimises that second class with the eleven Fighter Feats (and, for the rogue, the good Fort saves.) That is, for the most part, their combat role will not only be what it was before, they also gain the advantage of those feat chains. Ascetic Monk combos can be pretty sick, just as core AM's are.
Khelvaster
09-19-04, 10:38 PM If that is the case couldn't someone concievably be a multiclassed monstrosity of

wizard/cleric/druid/barbarian/monk

then you get uber spellcasting, uber HP, and Uber saves. WIS 16, INT 16, and lower other stats will do just fine.
Kiri Sittori
09-20-04, 09:08 AM If that is the case couldn't someone concievably be a multiclassed monstrosity of

wizard/cleric/druid/barbarian/monk

then you get uber spellcasting, uber HP, and Uber saves. WIS 16, INT 16, and lower other stats will do just fine.

You wouldn't be that uber, actually; at each level, you could only pick two classes. So that "multiclass monstrosity" would average level 8 in each class for a full build. I'll take a paladin/sorcerer, paladin/ranger, or ranger/necromancer at full build, over that five-classed trash. :)
Khelvaster
09-20-04, 10:20 PM Also, why don't people just do a sorc/wiz gestalt? That is 2x as many spells as normal=uberness.
Riznar
09-20-04, 10:42 PM Because in a gestalt world, that single build has the lowest possible HP. And gestalt characters need to be able to take a beating.

(More class combos have that HP if you include other 20 level classes, but I'm assuming the normal 11)
Nedlum
09-20-04, 11:11 PM Also, you'd need two casting stats. Which isn't a deal breaker, but why that instead of (as they suggest) a cleric/sorcerer, which would have another use for Cha (Turn undead/divine feats) and more important would have 3/4ths BAB and hitpoints a plenty.
Razorblade Smile
09-21-04, 12:28 AM Battle Domain Wizard (with Fighter Feats) / Battle Sorcerer is a nice combo. Cleric BAB, d8 hit dice, Intimidate as a class skill, tons of spells, no opposition school, proficiency with any one-handed martial weapon and light armor, and bonus Fighter Feats instead of Metamagic/Item Creation feats make for a strong and survivable dedicated wizard. You can even trade in your familiar for an animal companion as a druid of half your level if you like (not that I can figure out why someone would want to, but it's an option).

And no, you don't 'need to be able to take a beating' in a gestalt setting anymore than any other setting. Typical arcane spellcasters aren't intended to wade into combat; they stay in a safe location and hurl their spells. But for those times when you do want to get a little melee fun in, the above build ain't too shabby for a dedicated spellcaster.
Riznar
09-21-04, 03:01 AM Hmm, I dunno. I suppose its up to the campaign, but in my games, enemies have so many ways to put the hurt on you because of gestalt, it is hard to totally defend against them all. Especially since you still only get that 1 set of actions per round even though you have double the spellcasting. Whereas other combinations synergize better and get more out of every action, you're still casting the same spells.
The Vampire
09-21-04, 01:45 PM I'm going to play a sor/ftr for a final fantasy feel I agree its strong and I have my eye on bracers of armour but Its still only one action a round, I just think your more versitile and can push on for longer before rest
cthulu_mt
09-21-04, 11:21 PM Rogue/Paladin....nothing more annoying than a Paladin with the Spot and Sense Motive maxxed out to keep the other PC's from doing anything dishonest. And I'm the party Rogue which makes everything on the up and up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khelvaster 09-19-04, 06:27 PM	There are these topics about Gestalt, what are Gestalts? UA is open-gaming liscence, so you can reproduce it.
Goken100 09-19-04, 08:16 PM	Its 3rd edition's version of the multi-class characters from 2nd edition. Each character has 2 classes with all the best stuff from each class. You don't get HP, saving throws, and attack bonuses from both classes when you level up, instead you get to choose the best option from either class for every category. This rule variant is not that realistic or fun in my opinion because, as the rule itself says, every character in a campaign needs to be a Gestalt character in order to keep things fair. I'd much rather have my characters just alternating which level they're getting. One might wonder why Gestalt characters have to choose the BEST thing from every category. Well its the only option if you think about it. How in the world could you average the gaining of 1 to a saving throw every after level with the gaining of 1 to a saving throw every 3 levels? Its just way too messy. If one wonders why they don't just give full benefits to both classes and require double experience... that would be silly, why not just multiclass to get both levels! So there you go, I answered the question and got a chance to rant. :)
Khadesh 09-19-04, 08:22 PM	It is interesting, but it is really for a group with very little players in it. Essentially you are double classes at the same time like the previous post said above me.
Razorblade Smile 09-19-04, 08:37 PM	Actually it works spectacularly well to balance the system out. In a gestalt game, it's nearly impossible to have a character that sucks unless you specifically go out of your way to make that happen. And, even more than in a traditional game, characters tend to be very diverse individuals that more closely reflect what you see in fantasy film and fiction. But because it's different from what WotC declares as game balance, it gets a lot of insulting from people around here (especially from the same people who always seem to give examples of where all gestalt characters are warrior-spellcasters -- how boringly unimaginative can you be?). Don't listen to any of them and try it out for yourself with an open mind. You might be surprised. I know my Fighter-Rogue gestalt character has been a total blast.
Kiri Sittori 09-19-04, 09:49 PM	Actually, almost any fighter combo with pally, ranger, barb, rogue, or monk is better in many ways than a fighter/caster. It's certain of those who have... curious, to be charitable, methods of determining gestalt level-ups that tend to tout gishy builds über alles. If one thinks about it, a fighter/other non-caster optimises that second class with the eleven Fighter Feats (and, for the rogue, the good Fort saves.) That is, for the most part, their combat role will not only be what it was before, they also gain the advantage of those feat chains. Ascetic Monk combos can be pretty sick, just as core AM's are.
Khelvaster 09-19-04, 10:38 PM	If that is the case couldn't someone concievably be a multiclassed monstrosity of wizard/cleric/druid/barbarian/monk then you get uber spellcasting, uber HP, and Uber saves. WIS 16, INT 16, and lower other stats will do just fine.
Kiri Sittori 09-20-04, 09:08 AM	If that is the case couldn't someone concievably be a multiclassed monstrosity of wizard/cleric/druid/barbarian/monk then you get uber spellcasting, uber HP, and Uber saves. WIS 16, INT 16, and lower other stats will do just fine. You wouldn't be that uber, actually; at each level, you could only pick two classes. So that "multiclass monstrosity" would average level 8 in each class for a full build. I'll take a paladin/sorcerer, paladin/ranger, or ranger/necromancer at full build, over that five-classed trash. :)
Khelvaster 09-20-04, 10:20 PM	Also, why don't people just do a sorc/wiz gestalt? That is 2x as many spells as normal=uberness.
Riznar 09-20-04, 10:42 PM	Because in a gestalt world, that single build has the lowest possible HP. And gestalt characters need to be able to take a beating. (More class combos have that HP if you include other 20 level classes, but I'm assuming the normal 11)
Nedlum 09-20-04, 11:11 PM	Also, you'd need two casting stats. Which isn't a deal breaker, but why that instead of (as they suggest) a cleric/sorcerer, which would have another use for Cha (Turn undead/divine feats) and more important would have 3/4ths BAB and hitpoints a plenty.
Razorblade Smile 09-21-04, 12:28 AM	Battle Domain Wizard (with Fighter Feats) / Battle Sorcerer is a nice combo. Cleric BAB, d8 hit dice, Intimidate as a class skill, tons of spells, no opposition school, proficiency with any one-handed martial weapon and light armor, and bonus Fighter Feats instead of Metamagic/Item Creation feats make for a strong and survivable dedicated wizard. You can even trade in your familiar for an animal companion as a druid of half your level if you like (not that I can figure out why someone would want to, but it's an option). And no, you don't 'need to be able to take a beating' in a gestalt setting anymore than any other setting. Typical arcane spellcasters aren't intended to wade into combat; they stay in a safe location and hurl their spells. But for those times when you do want to get a little melee fun in, the above build ain't too shabby for a dedicated spellcaster.
Riznar 09-21-04, 03:01 AM	Hmm, I dunno. I suppose its up to the campaign, but in my games, enemies have so many ways to put the hurt on you because of gestalt, it is hard to totally defend against them all. Especially since you still only get that 1 set of actions per round even though you have double the spellcasting. Whereas other combinations synergize better and get more out of every action, you're still casting the same spells.
The Vampire 09-21-04, 01:45 PM	I'm going to play a sor/ftr for a final fantasy feel I agree its strong and I have my eye on bracers of armour but Its still only one action a round, I just think your more versitile and can push on for longer before rest
cthulu_mt 09-21-04, 11:21 PM	Rogue/Paladin....nothing more annoying than a Paladin with the Spot and Sense Motive maxxed out to keep the other PC's from doing anything dishonest. And I'm the party Rogue which makes everything on the up and up.