Post/Author/DateTime	Post
flyingmoose 02-17-04, 09:24 PM	From dictionary.com ge·stalt or Ge·stalt "A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts." Lots of people are going to ask this question. Not many people have the book at the moment, and since Unearthed Arcana is entirely Open Gaming Content, I can explain this and I'm not breaking any laws. Someone had to do it. *ahem* Gestalt Characters are a high-powered campaign alternative resemblant of multiclassing in 2e. Essentially you take two classes at once, combining all the strengths and weaknesses of each class. At each level, you select two classes. For your Hit Die, Base Attack Bonus, Base save bonuses, and number of skill points, you take the superior one from each class. You gain the class features of both classes and skills on either class's list are considered class skills. You also gain all the limitations of both classes. A barbarian/druid still can't wear metal armor without losing his druid abilities. A paladin/wizard has to be lawful good. For this reason certain classes with opposed alignment restrictions (namely barbarian/monk and bard/paladin) can't happen. For example: a fighter/monk gestalt would have a d10 hit die, full BAB, all good saves, and 4 skill points per level. He could purchase skills from either class's list and he'd get both the monk's abilities and the fighter's bonus feats. You can multiclass, taking a different combination of classes. Gestalt multiclassing works the same as gestalt single classing. At each level, you select two classes, taking the best aspects of each class. If you take the same class in multiple combinations, those levels add together, i.e. you don't take the same class twice. Example: If after 5 levels of monk/fighter you then switched out fighter for sorceror (taking 5 levels of monk/sorceror), you'd have the abilities of a 10th level monk with 3 fighter bonus feats and 2nd level arcane spells. Your character level would be 10. If you take two spellcasting classes, you get two sets of spells and track them separately. A quote from the book describes the cleric/sorceror gestalt as "the mystic theurge prestige class on steroids." Speaking of which, you can take prestige classes as a gestalt character if you meet all the prerequisites, going from fighter/rogue to duelist/rogue for example. However, you cannot take two prestige classes at once. So no Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciples, okay? Multiclassing penalties aren't actually discussed in the article. I would prefer to omit them entirely, but if you simply apply the rule as written in the Player's Handbook... Player's Handbook v3.5 p. 60 "If any two of your multiclass character's classes are two or more levels apart...your multiclass character takes a -20% penalty to XP for each class that is not within one level of his or her highest-level class." "A favored class does not count against the character for the purposes of the -20% penalty to XP." Therefore a half-orc barbarian/cleric 5 / barbarian/fighter 4 would not suffer an XP penalty because his two nonfavored classes are within one level of eachother. Gestalt Characters are admittedly far more powerful than the standard classes, but not so much as it might seem. A gestalt character is not as powerful as two standard characters of equal level because the gestalt character can't be in two places at once. They still gain class features at the same rate, they simply gain more of them. A gestalt fighter/wizard won't gain a second attack before 6th level, nor will he gain 5th-level spells before 9th level. A full page (out of about two and a half) is devoted to balancing gestalt campaigns. I say gestalt campaigns rather than gestalt characters because they are not meant to be introduced into standard campaigns. If you allow gestalt characters, the entire party as well as all NPCs should be gestalt characters. You can't just stick a fighter/wizard gestalt in with three standard characters and expect everything to work itself out. There will be kinks. *whew* Alrighty, that should be everything you need to be told. If you want more, buy the book like I did. -Flying Moose
The Simple Seeker II 02-17-04, 09:27 PM	Good JOB:D :) :) ;)
strenoth 02-17-04, 09:36 PM	Yeah, that's a good summary. I figure that depending on the combo, Gestalt character range from about 1.25 to 1.5 times as powerful as a normal character of the same level. Never more tha 1.5 times as powerful because you still only get the best of each class, not 2 HD or both save sets combined or anything like that, and as stated above, you are limited still to only 1 action set a round.
Master of the Squirrel's 02-17-04, 10:17 PM	Flyingmoose: I suppose you wrote what you did on Gestalt Insanity without thinking through the whole process. You get the full BAB if you go +1/lvl BAB and a +1/2 lvl BAB class at first, and then two +1/2 lvl BAB classes the rest of the way through OR you can start with a +1/lvl BAB and a +3/4 lvl BAB class, and then continue with two +3/4 lvl classes the rest of the way through. Combonations DON'T work this way. Examples: Level. Class 1/Class 2 1. Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1 2. Wizard 1/Sorcerer 2 End: Fighter 1/Wizard 19/Sorcerer 20. BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5. 1. Ranger 1/Monk 1 2. Druid 1/Monk 2 End: Ranger 1/Druid 19/Monk 20. BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5. 1. Paladin 1/Sorcerer 1 2. Monk 1/Sorcerer 2 End: Paladin 1/Monk 19/Sorcerer 20. BAB: +10/+5. Do you get what I mean by that now? Basically, with the level of offset, at least one of the two classes will advance in BAB every level.
stone_dog 02-17-04, 10:28 PM	Lets see here... class a will be a level of fighter with the rest sorc, class b will be nothing but wizard and G will be the gestalt of the two. A 1 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 B 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 10 G 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 yadda yadda... Hm. Looks like the squirrel is right so far, but that could just be that we don't have the rules right. I might say that if you are currently running with two poor BAB progressions you only get the one that is currently higher. Same with saves I guess. Hmmm.. this takes some hammering. HEY WOTC! Can we get Andy Collins or whoever is responsible for this can of worms to step in and help set us straight on this?
flyingmoose 02-17-04, 10:36 PM	That's stupid. You could do that with any class. If it was psion 1/wizard 19 / sorceror 20 you'd be getting a fighter BAB and none of these classes have it. You take class features every level (unless both classes have the same feature, then whichever one gets it first). You don't take specific bonus, you take the progression.
Master of the Squirrel's 02-17-04, 10:39 PM	Originally posted by flyingmoose That's stupid. You could do that with any class. If it was psion 1/wizard 19 / sorceror 20 you'd be getting a fighter BAB and none of these classes have it. You take class features every level (unless both classes have the same feature, then whichever one gets it first). You don't take specific bonus, you take the progression. Your right, but it's also the fact of the matter. And note: You don't get FULL BAB, but close enough it doesn't make to much difference. NOW can you see why we at the Min/Max boards just roll our eyes at Gestalt? I labled my thread Gestalt INSANITY for a reason. :)
TwoSix26 02-17-04, 10:39 PM	Umm...no. You don't get to pick from whichever class adds a point of BAB that level. The description says you gain whichever progression is better, not that you get to pick between whichever two BAB tables the class has. A fighter/wizard has a BAB progression of good, which means at first level he'll gain a BAB of +1. Wizard/sorceror, on the other hand, has a BAB progression of poor. That means after 19 levels of Wiz/Sor, he'll gain an additional +9 in BAB, giving him a total progression of +10/+5.
stone_dog 02-17-04, 10:42 PM	How about this? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Lord Schpungus The point is that they're staggered. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well then you step in with a house rule and smack that crap down. What kind of maniac would take an optional rule and not beat it about for some better clarity? take the sneak attack of the rogue or the ninja, but you can only have one of them. Or, rule that the ninja is a varient of the rogue and forbid the two to be taken together. Same thing follows with the BAB now that I think about it. Just say you get the better of Sorc and Wiz in that which one is more advanced. If you offset Wiz then go with the Sorc BAB since it hits the +2 mark before the Wiz does.
Master of the Squirrel's 02-17-04, 10:43 PM	Your right, you get the progression that works the best; it just so happens that the best progression changes at each level. With a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19/Wizard 20, at level 2, Wizard has the best progression. At third level, Sorcerer progression works best. And BAB do stack at each level. I would completely understand if there was an official ruling agaisnt that, but until there is, this is how I believe it's interpretted.
stone_dog 02-17-04, 10:46 PM	I am going to go ahead and define in this case that the best progression is the one that hits the higher number first, not the one that happens to give you a +1 this time around. That makes it a bit more reasonable.
flyingmoose 02-17-04, 10:46 PM	Unearthed Arcana p. 72 "Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the two classes. Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes." NOW can you see why I roll my eyes at the Min/Max boards?
Master of the Squirrel's 02-17-04, 10:55 PM	Originally posted by flyingmoose NOW can you see why I roll my eyes at the Min/Max boards? I fear you roll your eyes out of lack of understanding. All of the people who frequent the boards find it fun and interesting when they find loophole in the system, but also 99% of them wouldn't dream of using them. We aren't a bunch of junior high students who don't understand the concept of game balance. Now, if we were given a Gestalt campaign, it wouldn't take almost any effort to get disgusting results. But we do know builds, such as a Half-Ogre with the War Hulk and Hulking Hurler Prestige Classes, that can reach litterally millions in damage. Would the majority of us ever play one? Not in a million years. Gestalt is just a VERY powerful alternative that likely was not supposed to reach THIS much power, but due to likely lack of playtesting, we got this.
flyingmoose 02-17-04, 11:12 PM	Look, you can try and justify it all you want, but you're still wrong. A wiz/sorc gestalt has 1/2 BAB at any level. That's how it's written. Just because you'd never rob a bank doesn't make it legal to do so. Untill Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, and/or Rich Redman come out and verify this little "build" of yours, you're wrong. That's nothing against the CO boards in general. Just their apparent collective take on this Gestalt business.
Master of the Squirrel's 02-17-04, 11:25 PM	If I am indeed reading it wrong, I apologize for arguing it. The LAST thing anybody on the CharOp boards wants to do is break the rules, as I completely agree it is the opposite of Min/Maxxing, just as the opposite of knowledge isn't ignorance, but lies. Besides this little disagreement, I do think you do a great job at clarifying Gestalt for all the questioning people who don't have UA. :)
stone_dog 02-17-04, 11:31 PM	I don't really think that either one of you is wrong. I just think the wording on the option could have used a little work and one interpretation is more abusive than the other. I do think that if you are looking at two classes that have every other level progression (in whatever) you only get it every other level, you just start it out using whatever class has the most advanced progression. Saves is where it still bogs down to me. When you multi into a class that jumps you into a +2 save should you just run with it or say it is a continuation of the save in progress. I am going to say if it is a +1 every level progression then you just give a +1 for each level you take in the class. I mean damn, these things have huge enough saves as it is, no need on driving them any further.
flyingmoose 02-17-04, 11:37 PM	Like I said, I plan on using Gestalt characters in my next game. I also plan on using the "one-time-only +2 base save" option (I think it's in a sidebar). They get the +2 only once for each good save. Aside from that, it's 1/2 the levels it's a good save, 1/3 the levels it's a bad save. Given my adherence to the whole "take the progression" argument, saying otherwise would make me a hypocrite.
stone_dog 02-17-04, 11:46 PM	Good sidebar.
X105_Strike 02-18-04, 04:04 AM	People have been suggesting that a "fighter 1/sorcerer 19/wizard 20" character can have BAB +20... This is just NOT right, and any DM with half a brain would NOT allow it anyway. The progression should be 1/2 for poor, 3/4 for average, 1 for good. Taking this as a consideration, you can just say this: -> A fighter1/sorcerer 19/wizard 20 character would have +10, as follows: +1/2 (highest out of wiz/sor) for 19 level = +9.5 and +1 from the fighter = +10.5.... round this down[refering to the PHB], this makes +10 BAB.. Now, ok, so WotC make a mistake....[this is really a minor one compared to the others..] Its a variant, so I would think that the DM would balance everything out anyway. This "solution" works for average BAB combinations too. I think someone mentioned this already.. Saves are just easy. They are just the same as multiclassing in PHB, except you just take the highest of the two classes that you are raising. If you have lots of +2's in your first level of multiclassing progression.. good for you..but you have to take the XP penalty too. If you take PrC, then it would be the same thing. This is a rule in the PHB. I am sure that this would not cause any big difference as it is already specified in the game, and players are already using it. There is really no need to nerf the +2 bonus that they get in the first level of a class. Besides, they lose out on the poor saving throws. I really don't see how this little "flaw" is such a big deal. Besides, I am sure that none of us have found all the bigger "problems" with this variant, and there are lots more to come. This ones just happens to be a simple mistake with a simple "solution".
JasperDm 02-18-04, 04:53 AM	Come on, we all know where this is going, let's get it at least out in the open. 1)Fighter 1/Monk 1 2)Fighter 2/Monk 2 3)Fighter 3/Sorcerer(Or Psion) 1 ..... 20)Fighter 20/Monk 2/Sorcerer(Or Psion) 18 +20 Bab, Evasion, Full casting power. Twink: "Yay, Mom, look at me! I can be Goku now!!" *Jaspar quietly loads shotgun* BOOM!:eek: *Jaspar looks for place to bury yet another munchkin...rips out Gestalt rules and buries them with the body*
DJCupboard 02-18-04, 10:15 AM	if you look at progressions this way: poor good medium lvl bab bab bab 1 +0 +1 +0 2 +1 +1 +1 3 +0 +1 +1 4 +1 +1 +1 5 +0 +1 +0 6 +1 +1 +1 7 +0 +1 +1 8 +1 +1 +1 9 +0 +1 +0 etc. then you don't have to worry about the math as much. you just say, ok what classes am I going into? what was my last level in each, ok, which level increase gets me the better attack bonus? I'll use that one. so if you take one level of fighter/sorc. you start out with a +1 bab, if you then take a level of sorc/wizard (so you are a sorc2/wiz1/fght1, you get the +1 from the sorc's second level. You do indeed end up with +1 bab at each level. But what does that really get you? Your HD is still a d4 for everything except 1st level. You still can't wear heavy armor and pull of your spells. You didn't so much cheese your way into a fighter mage with a crap load of spells so much as make yourself good at ranged touch attack spells, but other spells did that for you too. Maybe you'll be passable with that crossbow of yours now, but I wouldn't want to use a 20/20 sorc/wiz build just to shoot one bolt a round really well. The trick with analyzing what most people call power gaming, or cheese, or broken, is to really take a look at the in game effect and not just shout "a spell caster with a good bab all the way, oh no!" and really take a look at what that means for inter-party dinamics. Is this charcater going to steal the the tank's limelight? Not really. Is he going to be able to hit someone with a greatsword if push comes to shove? Yes, but so should most gestalt characters. Let's just roll up some characters and have a good time. Let's worry about adjusting the rules when they consistantly make someone at the table uncomfortable. Power gaming isn't dangerous because it let's people have stupid sick characters, power gaming is dangerous when it makes other players feel inconsequential. ~DJCupboard~
DarkThoughts24 02-18-04, 09:17 PM	i hate when people combine two variants on the same page and assume they are the same rule. fractional increases and gestalting are two different rules. and they dont add all your classes together to make high totals together in gestalting even if they were used simutaneously! the min max boards are full enough with poor rules readers. and as i say your standard gestalt is a swiss army knife, handy cool looking but not as lifethreatening as everyone is making them out to be now gestalt generics! thats combining variants to make godlike pcs
Banpai 02-18-04, 09:29 PM	Gestalts are really not inheritly evil everyone who claims that better claims the same of multiclassing chause results may be damn close to a not that much min-maxed char! The only reason i see not to include it if the players would complain that if everyone has basically 2 classes nonone is longer special but that not really an issue with UA You can have a group with 6 Gestats all with a different Fighter variant............ So Gestats = GOOD :angel:
DarkThoughts24 02-18-04, 09:41 PM	i personally like gestalts in concept. it will make me feel retro with my 2e dming days, and give my pcs enough tools and rope to hang themselves with and build their own coffins. :smirk: of course aside for the one player who wants all of his characters to be "the greatest swordsman ever" most may ignore fighter classes and mix cleric/rogues wizard/rogues sorc/clerics bard/whatever isnt lawful, monks/whatever isnt chaotic really dont wanan see warmage/wizards. utility mages who blow up the country sides in scale mail cloister clerics/monk is the other scary combo bardic knowledge, cleric spells monk training on the plus most of my players havent yet minmaxed to that level. so i expect a lot of "Rogue/______" and the one "fighter/_____"
strenoth 02-18-04, 09:43 PM	Actually, fractional BaB/saves makes figuring out gestalted Bab/Saves Easier, if you follow the rules. At each character level, add the best fractional value from your gestalted classes. Simple. thus, if 1st level is say Fighter1 Gestalted With wiz1, your BaB is increased by 1, so BaB Total; 1 then Ftr1/psi1 g/w wiz2 your BaB increases by 1/2 (Psi and Wiz both have the same BaB), so your BaB is now 1 +1/2. At Ftr1/psi2 g/w Wiz3, the BaB is now 2 but if instead you had gone ftr1/psi1/rogue1 g/w wiz3 yoru baB woudl be 2 +1/4 this is why i like fractional BaB/Saves. :) it works well.
DarkThoughts24 02-18-04, 09:55 PM	Originally posted by strenoth Actually, fractional BaB/saves makes figuring out gestalted Bab/Saves Easier, if you follow the rules. At each character level, add the best fractional value from your gestalted classes. Simple. thus, if 1st level is say Fighter1 Gestalted With wiz1, your BaB is increased by 1, so BaB Total; 1 then Ftr1/psi1 g/w wiz2 your BaB increases by 1/2 (Psi and Wiz both have the same BaB), so your BaB is now 1 +1/2. At Ftr1/psi2 g/w Wiz3, the BaB is now 2 but if instead you had gone ftr1/psi1/rogue1 g/w wiz3 yoru baB woudl be 2 +1/4 this is why i like fractional BaB/Saves. :) it works well. see you understand the fractional concept right. most people on char op board look at a wiz1/(gest)/sorc 1 and put 1/2 and 1/2 together and end up with their +20 bab with 20 level wizard and 19 levels of sorc and one level of fighter. that is my complaint of it.
Cathon 02-18-04, 10:01 PM	Andy Collins was saying that he wanted a sticker on Unearthed Arcana saying "For Mature Gamers Only", but for some reason didn't get his way ;) The point is that these rules are meant to be used for building your unique campaign, and might need to be house ruled one way for my campaign, and another way for your campaign, but probably will need to be tweaked. Some of the classes might be able to be plug and played into the D&D rules, but stuff like Gestalt, VP/WP and Spell Point system will need to be tweaked, adjusted and aligned to get them to fit. The method you should use to determine base attack is the one that works best with your campaign. My opinion is that if you have the kind of players who say "but the book says..." you might not want to be using these rules without giving them a new book to look at. In my opinion +20 BAB bonus for the fighter/wiz/sorc is ridiculous, and therefore not the correct interpretation. There are mathematical progressions for the class BABs so either you use the fractional progression, or you set a limit based on fractional progression. (ie. the best progression at first level is 1, the best at second is .5, so the second level base attack cannot exceed 1.5, therefore it is 1. (or rounded it is 2, so 2 is the limit)) The warhulk is broken with gestalt, well the war hulk is either not allowed in a gestalt or you house rule it. (Perhaps you have a choice of increasing a stat or BAB, but not both in the same level)
Lord Schpungus 02-18-04, 10:38 PM	Dark Thoughts, you're assuming fractional BAB for gestalt is the rule, not a variant option, which it is. AFAIC the min/max board is following the letter of the rules as written. Maybe you'd like a Sage ruling, but until then...
Mind of Darkness 02-18-04, 11:56 PM	Hmm...anyone else considering hoping for gestalt characters becoming core in 4th edition...Wait! Wait! Don't flame me! The idea is to balance them with normal characters, so everyone doesn't have to be one. Correct with me wrong (I don't have UA yet, so I'm relying on info from this thread and others), under the current system, you get all the class features from each class, right? Why not instead include a point value for each class feature in fourth edition class write-ups (with negative values for "weaknesses") and allow a gestalt character chose one class to be their base class, and "sell" off any class feature they don't want, using the points earnrd from it to "buy" class features from another single class? This would eliminate the need for such prestige classes as the Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge, possibly even replacing the current multiclass system. Prestige classes would be ineligible to be incorporated into a gestalt class, and the multiclass experience penalty could be built into gestalt classes. It would be a hard system to balance, but since only core classes could be used, new suppliments would rarely hav to take these rules into account. Anyone else think this is a good idea? EDIT: Sorry if I posted this suggestion on the wrong thread, there seem to be a lot of threads about gestalt characters on this board. I'm not quite sure how differen all of them are. :confused:
Morgangrey 02-19-04, 12:07 AM	The thought of the +20 base attack fighter 1/wizard 19//sorcerer 20 doesn't pass the GM laugh test. Actually if you read the rules, the next paragraph after base attack bonus makes it clear your picking the best of the poor/average/good scale. Not the numbers you see printed in the books. That paragraph is for base saving throws and specifically mentions that for a figher/wizard you pick the Good save from the fighter for fortitude and the good save from wizard for will. Actually under base attack bonus it specifically states you pick the better progression of the two classes. And every where else you find progression mentioned its in connection with poor/average/good. Just look at the fractional base bonus side bar and you'll see each one called a progression. So, your fighter 1/Sorcerer 1 picks good progression for +1 BAB. At level 2, you now become a Wizard 1/Sorcer 2, and since the best progession you can possibly pick is poor, you look at 1 rank of poor which is +.5. so you now have a +1.5 BAB. and this continues, on. so at best you can have is the +10.5 at level 20, unless you take more levels of something with a better progression than poor.
WizO_Pony 02-19-04, 12:13 AM	I like the idea of being able to use both Gestalt and non-Gestalt characters in the same campaign, but I suspect that it might be easier to balance using ECLs for Gestalt characters than by creating an entire point system for various class features.
X105_Strike 02-19-04, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 i hate when people combine two variants on the same page and assume they are the same rule. fractional increases and gestalting are two different rules. and they dont add all your classes together to make high totals together in gestalting even if they were used simutaneously! the min max boards are full enough with poor rules readers. and as i say your standard gestalt is a swiss army knife, handy cool looking but not as lifethreatening as everyone is making them out to be now gestalt generics! thats combining variants to make godlike pcs Having factional BAB is NOT a variant.. Its just looking D&D at another level of detail... Where do you think that the numbers for the BAB comes from anyway?? Fractional BAB increase is the ESSENCE of BAB in D&D 3.0/3.5. I dont think that it is a variant at all. WotC just want to simplify things in the books, but that doesnt mean that the mechanics changes because of that.. If you stick with the book and have a 19 sor/20wiz with +20 BAB, then I am sorry, you are the one not following the ESSENCE of D&D.
flyingmoose 02-19-04, 01:53 AM	Originally posted by WizO_Pony I like the idea of being able to use both Gestalt and non-Gestalt characters in the same campaign, but I suspect that it might be easier to balance using ECLs for Gestalt characters than by creating an entire point system for various class features. Isn't that what dual classing was like in 1e or 2e? It was based on total XP rather than total levels and since XP doubled every level, you could have one class at 5th level or two classes at 4th level. Something like an increasing ECL might do it. Like a bloodline level. Yeah. I find it kinda funny that something I started as a simple FAQ type page that I hoped to be made sticky went to two pages of argument/elaboration. *shrugx0rz*
DarkThoughts24 02-19-04, 06:51 AM	Originally posted by X105_Strike Having factional BAB is NOT a variant.. Its just looking D&D at another level of detail... Where do you think that the numbers for the BAB comes from anyway?? Fractional BAB increase is the ESSENCE of BAB in D&D 3.0/3.5. I dont think that it is a variant at all. WotC just want to simplify things in the books, but that doesnt mean that the mechanics changes because of that.. If you stick with the book and have a 19 sor/20wiz with +20 BAB, then I am sorry, you are the one not following the ESSENCE of D&D. but adding fractions together for the sake of heightened bab and saves IS the variant. its right there in the box with the words VARIANT written at the top. and the point is even with the rules AS WRITTEN you dont have the fight1/sorc19/wiz20 with the +20BAB. the rules are clear on that. its called reading comprehension. one of those nasty lil things people used to need before they could get into highschool
cowdragon 02-19-04, 12:04 PM	Good Job! Thank you. :) I was wondering...by the way, mine is in the mail...yehaw! Soon my precious. The Cowdragon :mage:
DarkThoughts24 02-19-04, 07:51 PM	Originally posted by Lord Schpungus Dark Thoughts, you're assuming fractional BAB for gestalt is the rule, not a variant option, which it is. AFAIC the min/max board is following the letter of the rules as written. Maybe you'd like a Sage ruling, but until then... of the fractional rule they are following the letter ti's true but then they are ignoring the rules of gestalting in the first place. and skip is faulty, so if he ruled in my favor it'd only hurt my case IMX.
X105_Strike 02-19-04, 09:59 PM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 but adding fractions together for the sake of heightened bab and saves IS the variant. its right there in the box with the words VARIANT written at the top. and the point is even with the rules AS WRITTEN you dont have the fight1/sorc19/wiz20 with the +20BAB. the rules are clear on that. its called reading comprehension. one of those nasty lil things people used to need before they could get into highschool Personally, I dont think that fractional increase is such a hard thing... even with the "word" variant, it really doesnt mean the essence of D&D changes.. Whats so hard about taking 2 more decimal points in your campaigns??... which is what gets us here in the first place... Btw.. you do this all the time with your bills....
Tenzhi 02-20-04, 04:32 AM	Originally posted by flyingmoose Gestalt Characters are a high-powered campaign alternative resemblant of dual-classing in 2e. Seems more like 2E multi-classing to me. All you need to do is average the HD instead of using the best one.
Mythgaard 02-20-04, 07:00 AM	Originally posted by WizO_Pony I like the idea of being able to use both Gestalt and non-Gestalt characters in the same campaign, but I suspect that it might be easier to balance using ECLs for Gestalt characters than by creating an entire point system for various class features. *I may have misunderstood your point, if so, move along, nothing to see here.. I have been working on an idea similar to this for a while, basically a tweaked rip-off of the GURPS character creation. There are no "Classes" as such, you build a custom "class" by buying Progressions (BAB, Saves, Class Features, Spellcasting, etc) with points. My progress has been less than stellar. Just thought I'd share that. If anyone knows of any source that has already done this, save my brain and post it, please! :)
DarkThoughts24 02-20-04, 07:03 AM	Originally posted by X105_Strike Personally, I dont think that fractional increase is such a hard thing... even with the "word" variant, it really doesnt mean the essence of D&D changes.. Whats so hard about taking 2 more decimal points in your campaigns??... which is what gets us here in the first place... Btw.. you do this all the time with your bills.... the gripe isnt the decimal point, i am actually planning to use the fractional variant. however i also can read rules and see how people are confused when combining gestalt and fractional rules. as stated a dozen times by myself and other rules-reading players "you don't add two fractions for two clases taken at the same level! you only take the highest! "so no 19 level sorc 20 level wizard first level warrior classed being is going to have +20 bab
DJCupboard 02-20-04, 04:11 PM	I don't see what a fighter1/sorc20/wiz19 gestalt having a 20 bab has to do with the fraction rule. the 1st level gets a +1 from the fighter's plus one at each and every level. the second level gets a +1 because that's what a second level sorc gets, the third level gets a +1 becasue that's what at second level wizard gets, the next level gets a +1 because that's what a fourth level sorc gets, the next level gets a plus +1 that's what a fourth level wizard gets, the next level gets a plus one because that's what a sith level sorc gets, and so on. Not because a sorc's .5 progression plus a wizard's .5 progression equals a 1.0 progression. It's just the outcome of staggering two every-other-level progressions after starting the game with a +1 bab. And given the sorc wizard gestalt's other up-front combat disadvantages, I don't really see what the big deal is. If I missed something in this thread where it turned inot a discussion of the fraction rule (through a misaplication on someone's part), I appologize for missing the boat. ~DJCupboard~
Orcboss 02-20-04, 05:12 PM	Originally posted by strenoth I figure that depending on the combo, Gestalt character range from about 1.25 to 1.5 times as powerful as a normal character of the same level. Would you allow them in a game with standard classes if the gestalt character took a 25%-50% xp penalty?
strenoth 02-20-04, 06:08 PM	well, if the power level of a gestalt character is about 150% of a normal character, then a 33% exp penalty should work out, and i'll explain the math on that: reading it the other way gives you that a non-gestalt character is 2/3 as powerful as a gestalt character (100/150 = 2/3), so to even it out one might want to give out an XP penalty of 1/3 (aka 33%) so that in the long run the gestalt character is also at 2/3 the power of what it would otherwise be. make sense? it's really rather rough estimate though, and I don't see how to make it smooth, because the synergy of various gestault charaters varies a lot. a Rogue/bard isn;t getting much of a deal, and a fighter/mage can still only fight OR cast ina single round (though being able to cast and have more HP/BAB is nice) and is a little bit diluted due to MAD, but still more powerful than a normal character. so yeah.. I encourage people wiht good gaming groups to expiriment, see if a 33% exp penalty helps. If you atart at 1st level, the gestalt character will probably still be a bit over strong until you reach 3rd level or so, at which point it will even out I hope.
X105_Strike 02-20-04, 06:40 PM	Originally posted by DJCupboard I don't see what a fighter1/sorc20/wiz19 gestalt having a 20 bab has to do with the fraction rule. the 1st level gets a +1 from the fighter's plus one at each and every level. the second level gets a +1 because that's what a second level sorc gets, the third level gets a +1 becasue that's what at second level wizard gets, the next level gets a +1 because that's what a fourth level sorc gets, the next level gets a plus +1 that's what a fourth level wizard gets, the next level gets a plus one because that's what a sith level sorc gets, and so on. Not because a sorc's .5 progression plus a wizard's .5 progression equals a 1.0 progression. It's just the outcome of staggering two every-other-level progressions after starting the game with a +1 bab. And given the sorc wizard gestalt's other up-front combat disadvantages, I don't really see what the big deal is. If I missed something in this thread where it turned inot a discussion of the fraction rule (through a misaplication on someone's part), I appologize for missing the boat. ~DJCupboard~ If you have decimal system for BAB, you would NOT EVER have +20 wizard/sors... The thing is that you take the largest increase for the classes... So.... 1st level: when you take 1fighter/1wizard... you gain +1 from the fighter.. 2nd level: when you take 1sor/2wizard/1fighter... you gain +0.5 from either the sor or the wizard...... that gets you +1.5 =+1(rounded down like the PHB) overall... 3rd level: when you take 2sor/3wizard/1fight.. you gain another +0.5 giving +2.0 =+2 overall... and so on.... Staggering happens because you are following the rules blindly and you are not seeing how D&D works in the PHB....and with the Gestalt.. you are better off following the essence of D&D... +20 BAB for a wizard/sorcerer combination may have unforseen abuses... I dont know at this point... but with fractional increases.. it definitely get rid of the worry....
Lord Schpungus 02-20-04, 06:56 PM	Staggering is used because those people aren't using the fractional rules variant.
stone_dog 02-20-04, 07:29 PM	Actually, I am not using staggering OR the fractional rules. All I am saying is when there are two classes with the same progression you use the one that is already in force. Wizard1/Fighter1 uses fighter. When the character moves to Wizard2/fighter1/Sorcerer1 you use wizard since it is already in force. Lets say you have a Sorc/Wizard at level one. at level two the character moves to Sorc1/Wizard2/cleric1 the character uses the cleric BAB since it is a better progression even though the first level of cleric is a +0 and the second level of Wizard is a +1. I suppose a better way of putting it down would be something like using priorities. When two classes have different progressions you must choose "good" over "average and poor" and "average" over "poor" regardless of the actual numeric benifit. When two classes have the same progression the character advances according to the class that has the higher of the two levels. I would also make use of the varient on page 114, behind the curtain: injury. for all classes, not just prestige classes. If anybody has a better way of setting that down on paper I would love to hear it. I just know it will come up around my table.
DarkThoughts24 02-20-04, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by X105_Strike If you have decimal system for BAB, you would NOT EVER have +20 wizard/sors... The thing is that you take the largest increase for the classes... So.... 1st level: when you take 1fighter/1wizard... you gain +1 from the fighter.. 2nd level: when you take 1sor/2wizard/1fighter... you gain +0.5 from either the sor or the wizard...... that gets you +1.5 =+1(rounded down like the PHB) overall... 3rd level: when you take 2sor/3wizard/1fight.. you gain another +0.5 giving +2.0 =+2 overall... and so on.... Staggering happens because you are following the rules blindly and you are not seeing how D&D works in the PHB....and with the Gestalt.. you are better off following the essence of D&D... +20 BAB for a wizard/sorcerer combination may have unforseen abuses... I dont know at this point... but with fractional increases.. it definitely get rid of the worry.... without the fractional, it is f/w=+1 sorc/wi2+0 sorc2/wiz3=+1 because they dotn get an increase as a 1st level sorc/wiz because neither of them get it as their bab+1 for the fist level (the fighter wiz is a different class with stackable abilities. in the end you still end up with a +10 bab and an extra fighter feat that way. pleople please if you buy a book learn to read first things are clear as day when you read with the fractional variant your 20th level is a +10.5 (baring use of eldrich knight or similar prestige class as a sorc or wizard.) again i impole people do not be frightened of unskilled minmaxers. skill minmaxers will use these rules to make sick pcs, but still nothing as bad as the masses are making it out to believe
Lord Schpungus 02-21-04, 03:33 AM	yes, but as a wizard 2 you get +1 to base attack, and as you take the best of either class you take the +1 from wizard. At 3rd you take the best of either, and get the +1 from sorceror. At 4th you take the best of either, and get the +1 from wizard, and so on. That's how I interpret it, and it's just as valid as any of your interpretations. Neener.
stone_dog 02-21-04, 03:58 AM	So you are already getting more arcane might at 20th level with a sorcerer/wizard than elminster himself and you want to hack at the rules so you can have a +20 BAB too? Ah well. Maybe Andy or whoever came up with this will step in and lay down how this thing really does work.
Tenzhi 02-21-04, 04:17 AM	Sorceror and Wizard both use Poor BAB advancement, so a Gestalt of both of them should simply use Poor BAB advancement - seems pretty cut and dry to me. But the Bagrat literalists will always find some way to interpret rules nonsensically.
DarkThoughts24 02-21-04, 09:21 AM	Originally posted by Lord Schpungus yes, but as a wizard 2 you get +1 to base attack, and as you take the best of either class you take the +1 from wizard. At 3rd you take the best of either, and get the +1 from sorceror. At 4th you take the best of either, and get the +1 from wizard, and so on. That's how I interpret it, and it's just as valid as any of your interpretations. Neener. no literally it isnt as valid. becasue then if you did chose wizard as the highest rate of progression after that, then you never count the sorc anyway. becuase the classes "highest rate of progression" is the wizard level which is techincally just that sliver higher. you still only end up with the +10 bab in the end only by your ruling on the wizard countin to make the BAB+2 at second level you have ruled that the sorc wiz gestalts highest progession is the wizard. either way the rules are clear, insanely so, against your arguement. otherwizt then the monk/commoner can have insane saves ebcause there will be levels in which the monks saves dont rise but the commoners do, as does base attack bonus, but it doesnt. all of the monks saves and bab have a higher rate of progression. thus its still only a +12 saves. +15bab
Casperr 02-21-04, 02:19 PM	ok, i've done some thinking and some math and come up with the following: To mix gestalt classes with normal classes, you can use either the number given in the 1st column (and multiply it by your current level) to see how much addtional XP you need for the next level (if it is to be the gestalt level in question). Or you can take the XP penalty (which has the same effect). The 'adv' column lists the relative speed at which this gestalt advances. (Relative to a normal core base class). LVL2 Adv XP GESTALT 1720 0,58 -42 Brd/Bbn 1550 0,65 -35 Clr/Bbn 1700 0,59 -41 Clr/Brd 1560 0,64 -36 Drd/Bbn 1740 0,57 -43 Drd/Brd 1530 0,65 -35 Drd/Clr 1340 0,75 -25 Ftr/Bbn 1720 0,58 -42 Ftr/Brd 1440 0,69 -31 Ftr/Clr 1560 0,64 -36 Ftr/Drd 1710 0,58 -42 Mnk/Clr 1730 0,58 -42 Mnk/Drd 1740 0,57 -43 Mnk/Ftr 1500 0,67 -33 Pal/Clr 1320 0,76 -24 Pal/Ftr 1830 0,55 -45 Pal/Mnk 1540 0,65 -35 Rgr/Bbn 1720 0,58 -42 Rgr/Brd 1700 0,59 -41 Rgr/Clr 1700 0,59 -41 Rgr/Drd 1520 0,66 -34 Rgr/Ftr 1810 0,55 -45 Rgr/Mnk 1610 0,62 -38 Rgr/Pal 1580 0,63 -37 Rog/Bbn 1540 0,65 -35 Rog/Brd 1620 0,62 -38 Rog/Clr 1650 0,61 -39 Rog/Drd 1580 0,63 -37 Rog/Ftr 1690 0,59 -41 Rog/Mnk 1656 0,60 -40 Rog/Pal 1584 0,63 -37 Rog/Rng 1700 0,59 -41 Sor/Bbn 1780 0,56 -44 Sor/Brd 1580 0,63 -37 Sor/Clr 1680 0,60 -40 Sor/Drd 1628 0,61 -39 Sor/Ftr 1680 0,60 -40 Sor/Mnk 1850 0,54 -46 Sor/Pal 1970 0,51 -49 Sor/Rgr 1670 0,60 -40 Sor/Rog 1830 0,55 -45 Wiz/Bbn 1820 0,55 -45 Wiz/Brd 1710 0,58 -42 Wiz/Clr 1400 0,71 -29 Wiz/Drd 1760 0,57 -43 Wiz/Ftr 1870 0,53 -47 Wiz/Mnk 1820 0,55 -45 Wiz/Pal 1930 0,52 -48 Wiz/Rgr 1760 0,57 -43 Wiz/Rog 1560 0,64 -36 Wiz/Sor 1170 0,85 -15 Adp/Bbn 880 1,14 14 Adp/War 880 1,14 14 Ari/Exp 890 1,12 12 Ari/War 1390 0,72 -28 Ari/Brd 1200 0,83 -17 Ari/Clr 1170 0,85 -15 Ari/Ftr 1270 0,79 -21 Ari/Pal 1410 0,71 -29 Ari/Rng 1300 0,77 -23 Ari/Rog 1360 0,74 -26 Ari/Sor 1560 0,64 -36 Ari/Wiz 920 1,09 9 Exp/War 1230 0,81 -19 Exp/Brd 1180 0,85 -15 Exp/Clr 1230 0,81 -19 Exp/Drd 1210 0,83 -17 Exp/Ftr 1280 0,78 -22 Exp/Rgr 1100 0,91 -9 Exp/Rog 1180 0,85 -15 Exp/Sor 1320 0,76 -24 Exp/Wiz 1480 0,68 -32 War/Brd 1160 0,86 -14 War/Clr 1300 0,77 -23 War/Drd 1350 0,74 -26 War/Sor 1480 0,68 -32 War/Wiz 2330 0,43 -57 Wiz/Rog/Ftr 1700 0,59 -41 Wiz/Rog/War
Casperr 02-21-04, 02:29 PM	btw, the system i used above rates a Sorcerer at 850/lvl and bards & monks @ about 1175xp/lvl, but these are the extremes.
SuperThread 02-21-04, 04:03 PM	Question: If you have a Wiz 5/XXX 5 Wiz 10/Incantatrix 10, would you have a spellcaster level of 25 (15 Wiz + 10 Inc)? Or is there a limit on spellcaster level increase?
Casperr 02-21-04, 06:54 PM	I would say there's a limit of 1 caster level/character level. A character uses the highest progression of any overlapping features (much like other overlapping bonuses actually). Both the incantatrix and the wizard have the same progression at wizardly spellcasting, so it doesn't stack. Since the character has 15 levels which increase her caster level by +1(5 of Wiz/X and 10 of Wiz/Inc), she casts at caster level 15. Also, for people confused by 'using the best progression', it refers to the progression as a whole. So a Wiz/Rog would gain +3/4 BAB/lvl (like a Rogue).
flyingmoose 02-22-04, 02:10 AM	Originally posted by cowdragon Good Job! Thank you. :) I was wondering...by the way, mine is in the mail...yehaw! Soon my precious. See, this is what I hoped this thread would be. I explain what the frell people are talking about on all the other threads, people thank me, and move on. Less than a page. Maybe it gets sticky. Maybe. *sigh* You can't get good BAB from two bad BAB classes. "Better progression" doesn't mean where the bonus is, it means equal to HD/three-quarters HD/half HD. ftr1/wiz1 (good BAB) gives you +1. sor19/wiz20 (bad BAB) gives you +9. It's not poorly written, it's poorly read. Fractional BAB would correct this supposed loophole because at every level, both sorceror and wizard gain +1/2 BAB. Neither one is better. However, Fractional BAB and Saves is an unrelated optional rule that just happens to be in a sidebar on the same page as the Gestalt Characters article. Yes, it is an optional rule because you're changing when the rounding occurs. You can't get a caster level higher than your character level. If two classes have the same feature (like a caster level (or sneak attack)) you take the one that "accrues at a faster rate." A 20th level sorceror/wizard is not a 40th level caster (though he may as well be). In a similar rules fart which others may not yet have thought of, a monk/fighter 5 / monk/tattooed monk 5 does not count as a 15th level monk for damage, AC, and speed. He is a 10th level monk with three bonus feats, three tattoos, and a BAB of +8. Tenzhi, all the people I know that still play 2e called it dual-classing (probably because their DMs wouldn't let them take more than two classes), so that's what I called it. Your italics don't frighten me. Maybe I can curse somebody out and get the thread closed so I can write a new one. It could've been so... brief. EDIT: I fixed a typo in which I had written "(nad BAB)". It was too funny to omit completely.
Tenzhi 02-22-04, 02:30 AM	Originally posted by flyingmoose Tenzhi, all the people I know that still play 2e called it dual-classing (probably because their DMs wouldn't let them take more than two classes), so that's what I called it. Your italics don't frighten me. Fear my italics!!! Fear them!!! :rofl: Seriously. There was a mechanic in 2nd Ed called dual-classing that was only able to be used by humans. With this mechanic, you would stop advancing in one class and choose to advance in another - much like normal 3E multi-classing except that you couldn't return to your previous class. As I recall, even though it was called dual-class there was actually no limit to the number of classes you could potentially acquire in this manner. With multi-classing in 2E you would advance in 2 to 3 classes at the same time, and it was an option only available to demi-humans. This 2E mechanic is functionally more similar to the Gestalt mechanic than dual-classing. Edit: Also, I was assuming that the UA text had referred to it as being similar to 2E dual-classing and that you were just quoting said text.
flyingmoose 02-22-04, 03:00 AM	Fair enough. I'll go edit.
Euryale Far-Springer 02-28-04, 02:10 AM	Maybe post it again and kindly ask the +20 party to take it to another thread. Otherwise... :bump:
BrianDrozd 02-28-04, 02:16 PM	How was BAB so confusing? I thought it pretty straightforward. You just use the best BAB of the proper set of classes that match you'r current class level. For example, if you have a character who took 5 levels of fighter-wizard and 4 levels of sorcerer-rogue, you could arange the classes as fighter+rogue, wizard+sorcerer or fighter+sorcerer, wizard+rogue. Clearly the fighter+rogue combination had the best BAB at +8 (versus +4 wizard+sorcerer, +7 fighter+sorcerer, and +5 wizard+rogue). You can't mix rogue and sorcerer or fighter and wizard, because you took those classes at the same time. If you then added two levels of fighter-rogue, you'd only be able to use 4 levels of rogue (BAB +3) in the calculation, rather than the 6 levels you have (BAB +4), because two of those was taken opposite a fighter level, and you'd get better results out of being a 7th level fighter/ 4th level rogue (BAB +10) than being a 5th level fighter / 6th level rogue (BAB +9). This method works without using the fractional rules, and never lets you create a fighter-wizard 1/sorcerer-wizard 19 that gives you BAB +20 at 20th level.
DarkThoughts24 02-28-04, 11:07 PM	Originally posted by BrianDrozd This method works without using the fractional rules, and never lets you create a fighter-wizard 1/sorcerer-wizard 19 that gives you BAB +20 at 20th level. none of the variants as written in UA allow for that monstrosity
Kem 03-21-04, 01:08 AM	Next you'll say that your saves are also +14/+12/+21 for that Fighter 1, Wizard 19/Sorcerer 20. If both have a 1/2 progression then you use a 1/2 progression. You DON'T get to pick whichever one goes up that level, you have to pick the better PROGRESSION. This is pointed out repeatedly in the write up for gesalt.
Zeus-the-mighty 03-21-04, 02:42 AM	i have to join the bandwagon and say that you pick the better progression when you take the level. ftr1/sorc19/wiz20 has +10. not 20. if you look at gesalt like standard multiclassing, then if you take fighter10/ wiz10 what BAB do you have? is sure isn't 20
DarkThoughts24 03-21-04, 09:12 PM	no in standard multiclassign you'd have good saves and bab anyway jut halfashed fighter feats n spells, jack of all trades master of none is standard multi-ing
jaerad 05-17-05, 11:38 PM	I really like this thread for the clarification of progression as opposed to flat number increases at certain levels. You instead do something more like charting your progressions: A Fighter 1/Sorc 19/ Wiz 20 has 1 level of Good BAB (+1) and 19 levels of Poor BAB (+9, or 9.5) yeilding a total BAB of +10 (10.5). The method of calculation is to instead of just adding the numbers you see on the charts, to interpret the charts as "Good BAB, Good Fort, Poor Refx, Poor Will" to use Fighter as an example. You chart how many levels you have of Good and seperatly how many levels you have of Poor, then add the numbers together. However, this lead me to a strange conclusion. A level 20 character with 5 levels of Good save and 15 Poor would have a final result of +9 (+4 from Good save progression and +5 from Poor; 9.5 with fractions. A level 20 character with 20 levels of Good save would have a +12 save - regardless of whether he was in one class the whole time. Instead of getting that +2 bump when you enter a PrC, multiclass, whatever - you pick up where you left off on your progression. Now, what I'm wondering about is that this would also apply to standard and not just Gestalt games. Are spells balanced against a max +12 save, or are they balanced assuming that a Fighter 10/<anything with a good Fort. save> 10 has a total Fort. save of +14? What about someone that cherry picks, are they *supposed* to have a huge save? Or are saves supposed to cap, like BAB does? Posting similar thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6208597#post6208597) on Class forum. Figured that would be the best place to discuss save progression for non-Gestalt.
Voila! 05-18-05, 01:05 AM	Question about gestalt games: is it possible to advance in a monster class and a regular class at the same time?
Arterion 05-18-05, 04:27 AM	Now, what I'm wondering about is that this would also apply to standard and not just Gestalt games. Are spells balanced against a max +12 save, or are they balanced assuming that a Fighter 10/<anything with a good Fort. save> 10 has a total Fort. save of +14? What about someone that cherry picks, are they *supposed* to have a huge save? Or are saves supposed to cap, like BAB does? I think an extra +2 was in the design, but if you're taking levels from various prestige classes, that +2 in the good saves does begin to unbalance things, especially when you get to high level. I like the idea of calculating levels of good saves/bad saves and good/fair/poor bab. That makes a lot more sense. One argument for not starting the chart over again and again with each new class is that you don't get max hit dice at each new class.
jaerad 05-18-05, 10:17 PM	awww :bump:
Voila! 05-19-05, 08:16 PM	I believe that should that be a problem, you use a house rule listed in the section on the injury variant. You can only multiclass to get that automatic +2 bonus once and after that it progresses normally. Back to my question, can you gestalt in both a monster class and a regular class or prestige class?