Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drachasor 03-02-05, 02:56 PM	Well, there is already a thread on bonus feats for high charisma, but I think this is a bit too awkward and a perhaps a bit too potent. Mucking around with action points seems better and more natural. You could get your charisma bonus in extra action points every time you level. That might work out rather well. The only thing is that it sort of bothers me that this resource gets used up, unlike the benefits of other high attributes. Another way to handle it might be to grant a number of "minor action points" per day equal to the character's charisma bonus. These would be d3s or d4s that can be added to any d20 roll a regular action point isn't used on (they have no other use). Perhaps 3 or 4 could be used at once to grant a regular action point. The rational for these two possibilities is that your force of personality is being used to cheat/bend fate. Seems to fit perfectly, to me. Any other ideas, comments? -Drachasor
Xeviat-DM 03-02-05, 03:04 PM	I use charisma for several things. First off, my spellcasting is divided amongst all three mental ability scores. Intelligence grants bonus/penalty to spellcraft and knowledges, which all spellcasters need (and many spells use Intelligence modifier to apply bonus/penalties). Wisdom grants bonus/negative mana points. Charisma determines spell saving throw DCs. But, aside from my own personal system, charisma does the following 2 additional things over what it does in the PHB. Lesser Turning: All spirit creatures can be turned by anyone. Use Unearthed Arcana's level based turning method. As long as you have an object which is strong against or hated by the spirit you are trying to turn, you can brandish it as a standard action to try to paralize them. Clerics can then use a turn check to apply their turn/rebuke ability. Spiritual Shield: One's spirit has a shell of energy surrounding it; the strength of this shell is based on your charisma modifier. You gain a charisma bonus to armor class based on your charisma modifier vs. incorporeal touch attacks, and incorporeal creatures gain this bonus against all attacks since they are just spirits. This has made people less willing to dump charisma.
Ongorth 03-02-05, 05:25 PM	I think the idea that action points are "used up" is a little bit off. Consider. My character gets targeted with "Finger of Death" trap and fails the save on the d20 roll. The action point saves me and my character takes 3d6+13 damage, but lives. Not dying is a pretty permenant effect. Well, I suppose everyone dies, but that +1 to hit and damage isn't useful either when your character is gone. Granted, its not a "continuous" effect, but it does its job. Action points are handy in that they can help with just about anything, so are more versatile. A plus to strength isn't useful if you need to disarm a trap. An action point can help with most rolls, but they run out. Fair enough to me. I've been trying to start a quick and dirty Eberron game, and should I accomplish this goal, there will be a charisma modifer to action points. Like: Normal Action Points - 2 + Charisma Modifier Or something like that.
scwolf 03-02-05, 05:50 PM	Spiritual Shield: One's spirit has a shell of energy surrounding it; the strength of this shell is based on your charisma modifier. You gain a charisma bonus to armor class based on your charisma modifier vs. incorporeal touch attacks, and incorporeal creatures gain this bonus against all attacks since they are just spirits. This is highly cool. I'm adding this one to my binder.
HailSpork 03-02-05, 06:08 PM	Bear in mind, incorporeal beings get a deflection bonus equal to their charisma already... So unless you want it to double up, remember it's already in their stats.
Xeviat-DM 03-03-05, 03:17 PM	Bear in mind, incorporeal beings get a deflection bonus equal to their charisma already... So unless you want it to double up, remember it's already in their stats. I'm kind of defining what the reason they get that is now, and granting it in some form to every creature.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-04-05, 09:52 PM	Change the initiative bonus from Dexterity (reflexes) to Wisdom (awareness of your surroundings), and then move Bonus to will saving throws from Wisdom (self-awareness) to Charisma (strength of will). Presto, all the stats have a combat use.
Xeviat-DM 03-04-05, 11:43 PM	Change the initiative bonus from Dexterity (reflexes) to Wisdom (awareness of your surroundings), and then move Bonus to will saving throws from Wisdom (self-awareness) to Charisma (strength of will). Presto, all the stats have a combat use. Interesting ... but then initiative and reflex saves are separated. Also, I think this weakens Wisdom.
HailSpork 03-05-05, 06:39 AM	That's pretty interesting. The only downside I see is that it means that a paladin would get his charisma mod twice to his will save instead of cha+wis. Of course, you could say that a paladin gets his wisdom mod to his saves instead of charisma; after all, if a cleric gets his divine connection via high wisdom, it wouldn't be a stretch to say a paladin gets his divine grace from wisdom... Cha would still affect his lay on hands and smite.
Lina_Inverse 03-05-05, 09:48 AM	Of course, you could say that a paladin gets his wisdom mod to his saves instead of charisma; after all, if a cleric gets his divine connection via high wisdom, it wouldn't be a stretch to say a paladin gets his divine grace from wisdom... Cha would still affect his lay on hands and smite. that would severally hamper the paladins power.as it is charisma is his god stat.
Lord_Anthrax 03-05-05, 10:01 AM	How about this? Determined Effort[General] Your own self-confidence drives you to exceed your limits. Prerequisites: Charisma 13+. Benefit: Once per day, you can choose to add your Charisma bonus to a single attack roll, saving throw, skill or ability check before the roll is made. If you didn't want to make it a feat, you could simply rule that everyone has this ability.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-07-05, 01:59 PM	Interesting ... but then initiative and reflex saves are separated. Also, I think this weakens Wisdom. Yes. But Dexterity already plays a triple role (AC, Reflex Save and Initiative). Loosing one of the three isn't a big loss. It doesn't weaken wisdom too much, since initiative is an important part of a balanced PC.
NineInchNall 03-07-05, 02:27 PM	Isn't there already an epic feat that adds Charisma stuff? I think it's Battledance ... Battledance [epic, general] prereqs:Dex 21, Cha 21, Perform(dance) 24 ranks Benefit: add a perfection bonus equal to your Cha modifier to your AC, attack rolls, and reflex saves. Sick, scary feat. Dunno where I found it. :rolleyes:
MadBlue 03-12-05, 12:42 AM	Well, there is already a thread on bonus feats for high charisma, but I think this is a bit too awkward and a perhaps a bit too potent.We'll have to agree to disagree on that. ;) Mucking around with action points seems better and more natural.Although it's not a mechanic that everyone uses. I agree, though, that it makes sense to grant bonus Action Points on Charisma in games that use APs. An idea I had been working on is this: Every character has an Action Point pool equal to 5 +/- Charisma modifier. These points are replenished each level and can be spent on adding to a d20 roll or stabilizing. Limiting what APs can be spent on makes it less invasive to a system not designed to use APs, and not increasing the amount of APs per level makes Charisma a more important factor and encourages players to spend them wisely. MadBlue
Xeviat-DM 03-15-05, 05:51 PM	Yes. But Dexterity already plays a triple role (AC, Reflex Save and Initiative). Loosing one of the three isn't a big loss. It doesn't weaken wisdom too much, since initiative is an important part of a balanced PC. But initiative and reflexes are so closely linked that I don't think they could be separated. I'm all for breaking up dexterity, and I have done so in my games: Str: damage with melee and thrown weapons, bonus to certain combat actions, carrying capacity, skills Dex: All to hit rolls, tons of skills Agility: AC, Reflex, Initiative, escape artist and tumble (and climb, jump, and swim checks for certain creatures).
Suicidal Cavalry Attack 03-16-05, 02:34 PM	Since two of the three Core Arcane classes have Charisma as their base attribute, why do so many think Charisma is undervalued?????????? Add to that the fact that Clerics and Paladins need a good CHA to Turn/Rebuke, CHA is already effective in the game.
the_one_true_shea 03-16-05, 03:13 PM	The demoralize function of the Intimidation skill is pretty combat worthy. Also feinting can be very usefull, particularly with improved feint. These are both functions tethered to skills, but you can do either untrained.
Drachasor 03-16-05, 04:41 PM	Since two of the three Core Arcane classes have Charisma as their base attribute, why do so many think Charisma is undervalued?????????? Add to that the fact that Clerics and Paladins need a good CHA to Turn/Rebuke, CHA is already effective in the game. Clerics just need an ok Charisma to turn and rebuke; they don't need a great one. Besides them, Paladins and Sorcerers, Charisma is a dump stat for every other CORE (those in the PHB) class. Strength is a dump stat for only 3 of the Core classes; Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer. Even so, it is important for carrying capacity, which can be a very big deal for any class, even with bags of holding. Dexterity and Constitution are important for all classes. Wisdom is decently important for all classes, governing numerous social and non-social skills (all observational ones), and we cannot forget the mighty Will save bonus. Intelligence is decently important for all classes too, as it governs skill points. Fighters, Paladins, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics would only get one skill point a level (crippling) if they have a negative intelligence mod. On the other hand, Charisma is relatively minor. It governs a few statistics for a small number of classes (Paladin and Sorcs need it the most, Clerics can do ok with a smaller mod). Beyond that it holds sway on some social skills, but nothing terribly important more than half the time. Unless you are playing some sort of mostly non-combat game, in which case, with all due humbleness, you should be playing something other than D&D. These social skills tend to not be nearly as useful as even Wisdom's skills (which covers detecting when someone is lying, heal, listen, spot, and numerous other things). It is more than fair to say Charisma is lacking. -Drachasor
Drachasor 03-16-05, 04:43 PM	The demoralize function of the Intimidation skill is pretty combat worthy. Also feinting can be very usefull, particularly with improved feint. These are both functions tethered to skills, but you can do either untrained. It would be more useful if you didn't have to get into melee for it to work. Then it would be good for any class (even if it was just that you had to be within 30' and seen). -Drachasor
Cymraegmorgan 03-16-05, 10:06 PM	Clerics just need an ok Charisma to turn and rebuke; they don't need a great one. Besides them, Paladins and Sorcerers, Charisma is a dump stat for every other CORE (those in the PHB) class. Strength is a dump stat for only 3 of the Core classes; Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer. Even so, it is important for carrying capacity, which can be a very big deal for any class, even with bags of holding. Dexterity and Constitution are important for all classes. Wisdom is decently important for all classes, governing numerous social and non-social skills (all observational ones), and we cannot forget the mighty Will save bonus. Intelligence is decently important for all classes too, as it governs skill points. Fighters, Paladins, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics would only get one skill point a level (crippling) if they have a negative intelligence mod. On the other hand, Charisma is relatively minor. It governs a few statistics for a small number of classes (Paladin and Sorcs need it the most, Clerics can do ok with a smaller mod). Beyond that it holds sway on some social skills, but nothing terribly important more than half the time. Unless you are playing some sort of mostly non-combat game, in which case, with all due humbleness, you should be playing something other than D&D. These social skills tend to not be nearly as useful as even Wisdom's skills (which covers detecting when someone is lying, heal, listen, spot, and numerous other things). It is more than fair to say Charisma is lacking. -Drachasor I think you completely forgot Bards, as well as the Rogue's UMD skill. And if you do the Psionics thing, Wilders. I must agree with the Suicide guy/gal: CHA gets a good workout across the board. Thirty-six skill categories in the 3.5 PHB( 45 if you do not lump Knowledge skills together, ): Eight have Charisma as the Key Ability score. More than one sixth of all skills are Charisma dependent, either way you count. Not bad for a "dump" stat. :)
MadBlue 03-17-05, 01:38 PM	More than one sixth of all skills are Charisma dependent, either way you count. Not bad for a "dump" stat. :)That amounts to two class skills for Fighters and Barbarians, one for Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers, and none for Wizards. Only three of eleven PHB classes have more than two class skills keyed to Charisma, and Charisma adds no mechanical benefit other than ability checks and skill bonuses. With the "Standard Array", the DMG itself gives 8 out of 11 character class NPCs a Charisma of 8. If players are treating Charisma like a dump stat, they're in good company, since Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet and Skip Williams apparently do too (not that they, themselves, actually do, but they designed the DMG). All abilities other than Charisma grant a mechanical benefit outside of ability checks and skill bonuses (and, of course, class abilities, but that can be said about Intelligence and Wisdom too). Some people look at Charisma as a litmus test to divide "ROLEplayers" from "ROLLplayers", but NO ability score should be treated that way. Some mechanic should make hack and slash Fighter players look at Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma and feel they have to prioritize among the three. That doesn't mean Charisma can't be used as a roleplaying tool. Wisdom and Intelligence are roleplaying tools as well, but given a 12, 10 and 8, most Fighter players aren't prioritizing among being intelligent, wise or charismatic, they're thinking "do I want an extra skill point per level or a +1 to Will Saves, and Spot and Listen", and relegating Charisma to the 8 spot - not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, given the comparative worth of the three stats. The solution, though, is to design Charisma, like the other stats, with both "roleplaying" and "rollplaying" in mind. Personally, when coming up with a mechanical benefit, I think looking beyond the social aspect of Charisma is the best approach to take, because the social aspect of Charisma is already covered by skills, and apparently, that's not enough to make people who treat it like a dump stat boost Charisma, so focusing it more on the social is probably not going to have much affect on the average D&D game. Besides, house rules that penalize characters with low Charisma (such as "nobody pays attention to you because you have a low Charisma") just seem counterproductive to me (to me - YMMV, of course). Charisma is the ability that innate abilities (whether Bard and Sorcerer spells or a creature's spell-like abilities) are based on. Ghosts and other non-corporeal creatures get an AC bonus based on Charisma. The MM says that Charisma represents sense of self. The PHB describes high-Charisma characters as "confident". Those things go beyond the social aspects, and explore a meaning of "Force of Personality" that's not usually considered when people hear those words. A mechanical benefit should, IMHO, follow such examples, because such things are usually left to class features to elaborate on. For example, a Sorcerer casts spells through innate talent, but what does "innate talent" mean to someone who isn't a Sorcerer? Certainly a character with a higher Charisma should have a higher potential for evoking "innate talent" than a character with a lower Charisma, but how can that be actualized, other than taking a class with a Charisma-based special ability? MadBlue
HailSpork 03-17-05, 03:31 PM	That amounts to two class skills for Fighters and Barbarians, one for Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers, and none for Wizards. Only three of eleven PHB classes have more than two class skills keyed to Charisma Your numbers are a little off. Druids get 2. A cleric can also have as many as 3 class skills that use charisma. Monks get 2. Paladins get 2. Additionally, rangers and druids get wild empathy (it's skill-like...) Another point: All classes get 6 skills based on charisma. That's without spending a single skill point. Charisma adds no mechanical benefit other than ability checks and skill bonuses. You're joking right? Let's look at the PHB: Gnome innate casting, bard casting, turn/rebuke undead (both times per day and effectiveness), wild empathy, smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, sorcerer casting, and leadership. Now, if you meant "Other than class abilities", there's also this: Page 9: Checks that represent attempts to influence others. That's pretty big. Also, there's very little reason to ignore class abilities. If you ignore all classes that have abilities based on charisma, you're down to 5/11 classes, and that's including one class with 7 class skills that use charisma. You're also not playing with gnomes. For example, a Sorcerer casts spells through innate talent, but what does "innate talent" mean to someone who isn't a Sorcerer? Any of strength, constituion, dexterity, intelligence, wisdom, or charisma. In the cast of sorcerers, it may also refer to their draconic blood. Certainly a character with a higher Charisma should have a higher potential for evoking "innate talent" than a character with a lower Charisma, but how can that be actualized, other than taking a class with a Charisma-based special ability? I don't completely understand this question. Are you referring to innate talent as a sorcerer's spellcasting ability? If so, then you're asking how a character can cast as a sorcerer without being one. I suggest going back in time and convincing a dragon to procreate with one of your ancestors. All abilities other than Charisma grant a mechanical benefit outside of ability checks and skill bonuses (and, of course, class abilities, but that can be said about Intelligence and Wisdom too). Int and wisdom? Let's look at the class abilities of them: Wisdom comes in second with 5 classes. 4 for spellcasting, and monk's defense. Intelligence ties for 3rd with one class. Just wizard's spellcasting. Constitution also ties for 3rd with barbarian rage. And tied for last are good old dexterity and strength. Don't get me wrong, you pick an attribute and I'll tell you how important it is. Which brings us to a conundrum. We have 6 attributes, all good, but not all of my rolls were good. I guess I have to pick one as a dump stat. But which to choose? It's probably not going to be one that's used in a class ability (with the exception of wild empathy). Str, dex, con, and int are all very useful, so most characters won't use them as a dump stat. Wisdom is also useful for the will save and for perception. So, if I don't want followers, if I'm not one of the 4 classes that utilize charisma (6 if you count wild empathy), and if I don't mind not being a particularly social character, I may use charisma as a dump stat. I will point out that in the past year alone, I've used each of the 6 attributes as a dump stat. Strength 3 times, constitution twice, and the rest once each. Perhaps mages should get class abilities based on high strength? Honestly, I don't see a problem with a dump stat. It's inevitable that you're going to have to sacrifice one or more of your attributes. I've been in campaigns where barbarians get upset of how inneffective their intimidation is. If too many people are using charisma as a dump stat (npc's included), then that only makes the people with high charismas that much more expemlary. Ghosts and other non-corporeal creatures get an AC bonus based on Charisma. By the way, I found the spell that makes you non-corporeal. Ghostform from Complete Arcane. I'm not sure if it's level 7 or 8. I think it's 8 since the spell description overrides the blurb...
Cymraegmorgan 03-17-05, 09:21 PM	Originally posted by HailSpork: Gnome innate casting,.... Thank you HailSpork, I completely blanked on the poor Gnomes.
MadBlue 03-17-05, 10:44 PM	Your numbers are a little off. Druids get 2. A cleric can also have as many as 3 class skills that use charisma. Monks get 2. Paladins get 2.Oops, I missed Druid Diplomacy and Paladin Handle Animal when I counted. And I didn't count the Cleric skills gained as Domain Granted Powers, but OK, I'll grant that. In any case, Monks get more than two (I counted Perform as separate skills) which is why I counted them as a class that gets three or more class skills based on Charisma. Additionally, rangers and druids get wild empathy (it's skill-like...) Another point: All classes get 6 skills based on charisma. That's without spending a single skill point.Wild Empathy is a Special Ability. Most skills can be used untrained. I'm talking about which skills a character gets as class skills. You're joking right? Let's look at the PHB: Gnome innate casting, bard casting, turn/rebuke undead (both times per day and effectiveness), wild empathy, smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, sorcerer casting, and leadership.My point is that a Commoner with an 18 in all stats will get some mechanical benefit other than a skill bonus or Ability Check with every stat but Charisma. Unless we're talking about a Gnome Commoner, of course. Now, if you meant "Other than class abilities", there's also this: Page 9: Checks that represent attempts to influence others. That's pretty big.Represented by what exactly, outside of skill checks and trying to get a charmed person to do what he wouldn't ordinarily do? If it's pretty big, you must have some clear examples of how it works in play, and the mechanics involved, right? There aren't any in the PHB aside from the ones I noted above, AFAIK. I don't completely understand this question. Are you referring to innate talent as a sorcerer's spellcasting ability? If so, then you're asking how a character can cast as a sorcerer without being one. I suggest going back in time and convincing a dragon to procreate with one of your ancestors.Come on. You've read my "Bonus Feats for High Charisma" thread. You know I'm not talking about spellcasting ability. What I mean is that Charisma is the stat that governs using one's inborn talents. My point is that that part of Charisma should be important for every character, not just those who have a special ability based on it. Everyone has an innate talent for something. Charisma is the perfect attribute to use to reflect that. Lets put it this way, what if the warrior-type characters were the only ones to benefit from Strength bonuses to hit, damage and carrying capacity? What if Wizards were the only ones to benefit from Intelligence bonuses to skill points and languages? What if Rogues and Monks were the only ones to benefit from Dexterity bonuses to AC, Initiative and Reflex Save? What if, in all these cases, everyone else only used the ability in question for ability and skill checks? MadBlue
HailSpork 03-18-05, 03:37 AM	Represented by what exactly, outside of skill checks and trying to get a charmed person to do what he wouldn't ordinarily do? If it's pretty big, you must have some clear examples of how it works in play, and the mechanics involved, right? There aren't any in the PHB aside from the ones I noted above, AFAIK. When the GM says "Make a charisma check". Whenever you're trying to do something that's not diplomacy or bluff. Whenever you just want a basic reaction check for what somebody thinks of you before a word escapes your mouth. Have you seen Hunter X Hunter (the anime)? Gon isn't bluffing, he's not using diplomacy on people, yet his charisma makes people just want to help him. What's AFAIK? I'm not familiar with that one. A commoner with an 18 charisma would have a huge bonus to skill checks. A commoner with an 18 int would have more skill points, but the 18 charisma commoner has more potential in those given skills (d20+8 vs d20+4) without spending feats. Sorry, nothing other than skills and basic reactions. Does it need to be more than that? I thought skills were important. More classes make use of charisma than strength. You still haven't answered one thing: What's wrong with a dump stat?
MadBlue 03-18-05, 05:22 AM	When the GM says "Make a charisma check". Whenever you're trying to do something that's not diplomacy or bluff. Whenever you just want a basic reaction check for what somebody thinks of you before a word escapes your mouth.But there's no system for "basic reaction checks". If there were, one would think it would be covered in the DMG under NPC Attitudes (p128), but there's nothing about how to determine what an NPC initially thinks of a character other than "it's up to the DM and circumstances". Charisma only comes in when making Diplomacy (or Charisma) checks to influence an NPC's attitude when interacting (after a minute, using the rules for Diplomacy). Have you seen Hunter X Hunter (the anime)? Gon isn't bluffing, he's not using diplomacy on people, yet his charisma makes people just want to help him.Haven't seen it (even living in Japan and all - I followed Inu Yasha religiously when it was on TV, though). I understand what you mean, though, but how does that apply vis a vis D&D rules? Also, how would that apply to high-Charisma creatures, such as an Aranea, or high-Charisma evil characters, such as a Blackguard? And how would that apply if the NPCs were evil? Would an evil person want to help a high-Charisma character, or would they see the person as a possible threat because they're so charismatic? It would have to be complicated, because it's highly subjective, given alignments, races, situations, etc. Maybe that's why there's no system for basic reaction checks in 3e, and it's left up to the DM. What's AFAIK? I'm not familiar with that one."As far as I know" A commoner with an 18 charisma would have a huge bonus to skill checks. A commoner with an 18 int would have more skill points, but the 18 charisma commoner has more potential in those given skills (d20+8 vs d20+4) without spending feats. Sorry, nothing other than skills and basic reactions. Does it need to be more than that? I thought skills were important.Skills are important. What you said above is true for any Stat, not just Charisma. Besides, over time an 18 Intelligence is going to be a better investment skill-wise than any other Stat, especially considering that with a high Intelligence you can buy enough Ranks to get synergy bonuses for more of your skills than you could otherwise . My point is that if you take your paragraph and replace Charisma with Dexterity you also get a +4 AC, +4 Initiative, +4 to hit with ranged weapons and a +4 Reflex Save. If you replace Charisma with Intelligence you get 4 bonus languages and +4 skill points per level. If you replace Charisma with Wisdom you get a +4 Will Save. If you replace Charisma with Constitution you get +4 HP/level and a +4 Fortitude Save. If you replace Charisma with Strength you get +4 to hit in melee, +4 to damage and can lift and carry more. All of these things are in addition to the bonuses they give to skills. You still haven't answered one thing: What's wrong with a dump stat?Nothing is wrong with having to prioritize your stats. That's part of the game. But IMHO all abilities should have some mechanic outside of skills and ability checks (and special abilities, of course) that make which stat to put that "8" into a more difficult choice for any character, whether you're playing a hack-and-slash game or a socially oriented game. This is kind of a tangent, but for what it's worth, I use a kind of "point pool" system, where every character is built on 78 points. All ability scores start at 6 and players have a pool of 12 "die rolls" (1x2, 2x2, 3x2, 4x2, 5x2, 6x2) and allot two "die rolls" to each ability. So far, I've never had anyone put a score lower than 10 in any ability, although Charisma still tends to get a 10 (Paladin, Bard and Sorcerer players aside). When my friends DM games, we use the same system. For my own characters, I tend to give a higher priority to Charisma than my players do, again, unless they're playing one of the three classes above (for example, my most recent character, a Wizard/Rogue, had Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 12 at 2nd level - not exactly optimized, but a well-rounded Elf). I haven't actually used the "bonus Feats" idea yet (just moved and haven't found the players yet). MadBlue
Cymraegmorgan 03-18-05, 04:47 PM	It has been my experience, as a DM, that more players choose Wisdom or Strength or Dexterity as a "dump stat" than Charisma. Think of the stats this way if dumped: STR= weak DEX=clumsy CON=sickly INT=stupid WIS=absentminded CHA=dull as dishwater. Most players, in my experience and class dependent, roleplay weak, clumsy and absentminded better than dull. Only Moorcock fans tend to dump CON, as they have good literary examples to follow in roleplaying. Playing a stupid PC gets old quite fast.
HailSpork 03-18-05, 05:01 PM	But there's no system for "basic reaction checks". If there were, one would think it would be covered in the DMG under NPC Attitudes (p128), but there's nothing about how to determine what an NPC initially thinks of a character other than "it's up to the DM and circumstances". Charisma only comes in when making Diplomacy (or Charisma) checks to influence an NPC's attitude when interacting (after a minute, using the rules for Diplomacy). Well, there you go. There's your mechanic to add for charisma. Haven't seen it (even living in Japan and all - I followed Inu Yasha religiously when it was on TV, though). I understand what you mean, though, but how does that apply vis a vis D&D rules? Also, how would that apply to high-Charisma creatures, such as an Aranea, or high-Charisma evil characters, such as a Blackguard? And how would that apply if the NPCs were evil? Would an evil person want to help a high-Charisma character, or would they see the person as a possible threat because they're so charismatic? It would have to be complicated, because it's highly subjective, given alignments, races, situations, etc. Maybe that's why there's no system for basic reaction checks in 3e, and it's left up to the DM. Charisma can help with reactions, but it isn't the end-all. The Aranea would be more successful interracting with other evil beings, but would hardly make instant friends with paladins. However, such a being could go from hostile to unfriendly. Right now, it's all up to the GM. There's nothing really codified. I suppose what I'm really against is suggestions to add arbitrary powers just for the purpose of making charisma more important. All that does is encourage people to play those classes that already utilize it.
HailSpork 03-18-05, 05:03 PM	Oh, I take it back, it's on the bottom of page 72 of the phb.
Cymraegmorgan 03-18-05, 05:10 PM	Oh, I take it back, it's on the bottom of page 72 of the phb. also the last line (PHB3.5) on page 9.
HailSpork 03-18-05, 09:13 PM	Well, page 9 is what that is referring to. I listed that before, there was some complaint that that line is backed up nowhere, and I found that it was backed up on page 72.
MadBlue 03-19-05, 12:25 AM	Right now, it's all up to the GM. There's nothing really codified. I suppose what I'm really against is suggestions to add arbitrary powers just for the purpose of making charisma more important. All that does is encourage people to play those classes that already utilize it.I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what is and isn't "arbitrary". IMHO all stats should have "something else" that encourages people to play classes that already utilize it, and Charisma is seen as the weakest stat by a lot of people, including the designers (WotC's NPCs tend to be built using the "Elite Array", and Charisma is usually the stat that gets stuck with the 8). I'm just trying to address the non-social aspects of Charisma that are ovelooked regarding what Charisma does for the average guy (i.e. someone who doesn't have a special ability based on it). So to me, coming up with a non-social mechanic for the stat that governs the use of inborn or innate (Sorcerer, Bard, creature, racial) abilities doesn't seem so arbitrary. Besides, considering that Charisma adds to the AC of an ethereal/incorporeal creature, why should any additional ability one comes up with focus only on the social aspect of Charisma, especially when that aspect is pretty much fully covered by the rules as written. MadBlue
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-20-05, 06:47 PM	If DMs actually took Cha into account with reactions, how the character actually acts in the game world, etc, people wouldn't dump it. If you have low Cha, you're awkward, fearful, obnoxious, weak willed or otherwise flawed in personality. Too many players get away with being bad asses with low Cha and they shouldn't.
HailSpork 03-21-05, 12:45 AM	I wouldn't mind using charisma as an Armor bonus against ethereal attackers; after all, they get a charisma bonus as a deflection bonus against you... Perhaps also use charisma in place of strength when melee attacking ethereal beings as well? Borrowing some from Shadowrun...
MadBlue 03-21-05, 01:35 AM	If DMs actually took Cha into account with reactions, how the character actually acts in the game world, etc, people wouldn't dump it.Considering most of the pre-made adventurer NPCs have an 8 Charisma, you'd think townsfolk would be used to that by now. ;) Taking Charisma into account can be as simple as having the party designate a high-Charisma character as the "Party Face". A lot of what would call for Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks can be left to high-Charisma types, and that's as fine a party tactic as leaving the role as party "Meat Shield" up to the Fighter or Barbarian or party "Scout" up to the Rogue, Ranger or Scout (when my Rogue is attempting to disarm a trap, the rest of the party says "uh, we'll be waiting in another room"). Not that the other characters would never interact socially, but I think a lot of times when some people talk about "taking Charisma into account" they mean "inordinately hosing characters who have a low-Charisma score", as if a low Charisma character should expect to be ignored or hassled everywhere he goes by people on the street or in shops. Of course I'm assuming you mean a low-Charisma character should expect to not have much success in situations that would call for, say a Diplomacy, Bluff or Gather Information check (whether or not the DM actually calls for a check). I agree totally. Leave that to the high-Charisma, high-Skill characters, do something to merit a circumstance bonus, or don't expect to have much success. Deliberately targeting such characters to make Charisma checks just to penalize them would be going overboard though (kind of like saying everyone has to stay in the room where the Rogue is attempting to disarm a trap). Although it's not part of the core rules, the Reputation rules in UA are a great way to handle NPC reactions. Or even using the Leadership mechanic (Level +/- Charisma mod + Leader's Reputation) to come up with a reaction modifier might be a good idea. If you have low Cha, you're awkward, fearful, obnoxious, weak willed or otherwise flawed in personality. Too many players get away with being bad asses with low Cha and they shouldn't.I've had players have their characters act obnoxious even if they had a high Charisma score. :D It's interesting you should mention flaws, though, as I'm planning on using Flaws for low-Charisma characters (the flip side of Feats for high-Charisma characters). So that an 8 Charisma character could, for example have the "Weak Will" Flaw to account for how their personality is flawed other than in social situations. I like having that kind of concrete mechanic there, as it serves to reinforce the roleplaying part of having a low Charisma. Kind of a tangent, but Intelligence and Wisdom are probably just as ignored by DMs as Charisma is, as far as role-playing goes. MadBlue
Drachasor 03-27-05, 03:56 PM	I wouldn't mind using charisma as an Armor bonus against ethereal attackers; after all, they get a charisma bonus as a deflection bonus against you... Perhaps also use charisma in place of strength when melee attacking ethereal beings as well? Borrowing some from Shadowrun... I like the concept behind this idea a lot. Hmm, perhaps Charisma gives you the following benefits: If your charisma modifier is positive: You gain a number of "Personal Force" points equal to the modifier they can be used on the following as a free action (each costs one point): Add a +2 (luck?) bonus to any d20 roll (but this can't be a damage roll) Give all of your attacks the Ghost Touch quality for one round Subtract your Charisma Modifier from the Charisma Based Deflection Bonus a creature gets for one round (though this can't make the bonus negative); this only helps you hit it. If your charisma modifier is negative: You have a number of "Weak Influence" points each day equal to the negative of your modifier (so a character with Charisma 6 has 2 Weak Influence points), the DM may use them to do any of the following (each costs 1 point): The DM can give you a -2 penalty to any roll you make (damage or other), after you roll The DM can automatically make you miss any creature that has concealment or any other miss-chance Subtract your Charisma modifier from the Deflection Bonus of any creature with a Charisma-based bonus (so if your Charisma Modifier is -2 this adds 2 to the AC), this lasts for one round and only affects you. What do you guys think? Overall it they are nice, but small, benefits, I think. The negatives can hurt, but aren't game-breaking either, I think. -Drachasor
HailSpork 03-27-05, 05:43 PM	When would you use this: Subtract your Charisma Modifier from the Charisma Based Deflection Bonus a creature gets for one round (though this can't make the bonus negative); this only helps you hit it. over this?: Add your charisma modifier to any d20 roll (but this can't be a damage roll) The negatives are a lot for the GM to keep track of. Also, this could be quite devastating when fighting a monster with a high charisma. Remember, if you're adding it as a mechanic, it's a mechanic to the attribute... unless you're making it a player-only thing (which I wouldn't do since it's derived from an attribute.) The ghost-touch ability really nerfs the value of a ghost touch weapon, since you have that many rounds where any of your weapons are ghost touch; unless you're fighting a lot of incorporeal beings, you probably don't need permanent ghost touch.
Lina_Inverse 03-28-05, 03:05 AM	PCs get hero/action points.tie that into charisma somehow. you are awesome if you have a high charisma,therefore the world shows it by giveing you more awesomeness. thats my solution.
HailSpork 03-28-05, 03:24 AM	But if it's just a PC ability, it's a PC mechanic, not a charisma mechanic. you are awesome if you have a high charisma You could say the same for any attribute.
Lina_Inverse 03-28-05, 05:48 AM	But if it's just a PC ability, it's a PC mechanic, not a charisma mechanic. You could say the same for any attribute. as in the.omg your a badass kind of awesome.not wow hes strong awesome.the kind of awesome where you stroll into a room and everyone knows your awesome,hell the universe knows your awesome.thus rewarding sorcerer spells or in my games case,heropoints. who cares if its just a pc mechanic.no ones worried about npc's charisma being dumped.
Drachasor 03-28-05, 10:40 AM	When would you use this: <add charisma mod to attack roll> over this?: <anti charisma based deflection AC ability> Edited the post and fixed this. The former now only gives you a +2 bonus...thinking it should be typed Luck or Competence....leaning towards luck. The negatives are a lot for the GM to keep track of. Also, this could be quite devastating when fighting a monster with a high charisma. Remember, if you're adding it as a mechanic, it's a mechanic to the attribute... unless you're making it a player-only thing (which I wouldn't do since it's derived from an attribute.) Hmm, perhaps a bit for the DM to keep track of. Dragons do become even more potent. It might require adjusting some CRs of highly charismatic entities. It is only a few times a day though, so I don't think it is too bad for most things. Anyhow, a lot of monsters have huge spell lists and a dozen or more spell-like abilities, so I don't think it adds much compared to all of that. The ghost-touch ability really nerfs the value of a ghost touch weapon, since you have that many rounds where any of your weapons are ghost touch; unless you're fighting a lot of incorporeal beings, you probably don't need permanent ghost touch. Well, if you are only fighting 1 or 2 such creatures *and* you have a high charisma, then Ghost Touch isn't that good for you. If you are fighting a horde or have average or worse charisma, then it is still just as valuable. Against this particular type of foe it is a very nice bonus, but it is only one type of foe, and it only is a bonus for some characters...unless you think this is so good that Charisma would become more powerful than the other stats. -Drachasor
HailSpork 03-28-05, 02:08 PM	As in the "OMG your a badass kind of awesome," not "Wow he's strong awesome"; the kind of awesome where you stroll into a room and everyone knows you're awesome. Hell, the universe knows you're awesome. Thus, rewarding sorcerer spells, or in my games case, heropoints.(Edited for readability; punctuated, spaced, and capitalized) Wouldn't this be based more on XP than charisma? Who cares if it's just a PC mechanic? No one's worried about NPC's charisma being dumped. I care. MadBlue cares. Judging from his response, I think Drachasor cares. The point of this thread is to add a mechanic to charisma.
God of Slivers 03-28-05, 03:13 PM	The best suggestions that I've heard so far are MadBlue's bonus feat idea and using charisma with action points. I'm not sure which one I prefer, but IMO those two are the best ideas.
Lina_Inverse 03-28-05, 05:53 PM	I care. MadBlue cares. Judging from his response, I think Drachasor cares. The point of this thread is to add a mechanic to charisma. how many mechanics can be added to charisma seriously?the new addition of charisma being force of personality is wonderful.but that ends up makeing me feel action points are RIGHT. wether its from inate awesomeness.or simply subconciously forceing the universe to do your bidding.it seems right. however,action points CANT be given to monsters,as monsters are only worried about ONE encounter,whereas the PCs worry about many.a dragon can burn all his action points to kill all the pcs no problem.but each PC has more encounters than that dragon to deal with.
HailSpork 03-28-05, 06:48 PM	So, the universe cares about the "awesomeness" of PC's but not NPC's? Besides, the fact that you shouldn't give AP to monsters or basic npc's is kind of my point.
Chimaera2000 03-28-05, 10:32 PM	Change the initiative bonus from Dexterity (reflexes) to Wisdom (awareness of your surroundings), and then move Bonus to will saving throws from Wisdom (self-awareness) to Charisma (strength of will). Presto, all the stats have a combat use. I think that's actually a really interesting idea. I'm not sure how that would affect things in-game, but at least from a theoretical standpoint, I like this idea. It reduces the many, many uses of Dexterity and gives Charisma an actual use in combat. I think this idea bears some further discussion.
Lina_Inverse 03-28-05, 10:52 PM	So, the universe cares about the "awesomeness" of PC's but not NPC's? Besides, the fact that you shouldn't give AP to monsters or basic npc's is kind of my point. the pcs are extra special.afterall there the heros. besides every game WITH heropoints(which is almost all nowadays) either gives the dm none,or the dm a single pool for all npcs.the second option makes charisma rather useless a buff to them anyways. but this isnt an arguement for actions points but on charisma. few mechanics can be given TO charisma that truly matter to NPCs.anti incorporeal shell?how often are the pcs incorporeal? fame?the dm can set fame to anything he wants for npcs.assumeing of course it can grow besides level/charisma ups. reactions?again dm just detirmines this outside the game. most mechanics you add will never matter to npcs anyways.
MadBlue 03-29-05, 11:46 PM	how many mechanics can be added to charisma seriously?the new addition of charisma being force of personality is wonderful.but that ends up makeing me feel action points are RIGHT. wether its from inate awesomeness.or simply subconciously forceing the universe to do your bidding.it seems right.Eberron refers to AP as "luck", but I like to think of the mechanic of spending an Action Point as "motivating yourself to give your all in order to succeed at something". In Eberron you can spend 1 AP to add to a d20 roll, hasten an Infusion or stabilize, or spend 2 AP to activate a class feature such as Stunning Fist, Rage, Smite Evil, Turn or Rebuke Undead, Wild Shape or Bardic Music. IMHO the way AP is spent sounds more like drawing upon a personal reserve than calling on luck. Actually, instead or, or in addition to, modifying the number of APs a character has, it might be interesting to have Charisma modify the roll when spending an AP, so, for example, a character with a Charisma of 14 would roll 1d6+2 instead of 1d6, whereas a character with a Charisma of 8 would roll 1d6-2. Hmm... I'm starting to like the AP mechanic better than the Bonus Feat house rule. MadBlue
Drachasor 03-30-05, 12:44 AM	What about you get your Charisma bonus in AP each week. These points don't build up and you either use them or lose them (like charges/week on an item, or a Paladin's cure disease ability). A negative modifier reduces the number of AP you get when you level, if you are using that system. Hmm, perhaps I am too concerned about a boost that you can completely use up? It doesn't seem like the other ability score boosts if you get something you spend and use up for good (e.g. extra AP each level). Clearly extra AP each day is broken, but each week probably isn't. Afterall, how many campaigns only have a battle or two each week? Seems to me this is basically giving your charisma bonus in extra AP each adventure (wether or not you level). -Drachasor
Riznar 03-30-05, 01:21 AM	:eek: You guys really aren't playing the same D&D that I am... My players consider Cha to be of the utmost importance. For three reasons really: A. They like to bluff. B. They like spontanious casting. C. Because of the idea that Cha is weak, a whole slew of newer abilities make use of it in order to make up for this, turning it into one of the more powerful stats. Consider this thread. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889 Um yeah, I didn't really have a point...
Lina_Inverse 03-30-05, 01:40 AM	What about you get your Charisma bonus in AP each week. These points don't build up and you either use them or lose them (like charges/week on an item, or a Paladin's cure disease ability). A negative modifier reduces the number of AP you get when you level, if you are using that system. Hmm, perhaps I am too concerned about a boost that you can completely use up? It doesn't seem like the other ability score boosts if you get something you spend and use up for good (e.g. extra AP each level). Clearly extra AP each day is broken, but each week probably isn't. Afterall, how many campaigns only have a battle or two each week? Seems to me this is basically giving your charisma bonus in extra AP each adventure (wether or not you level). -Drachasor a per week system doesnt work in D&D.2 days of combat could be months apart,or the next day.everything is balenced per DAY in D&D remember. You guys really aren't playing the same D&D that I am... My players consider Cha to be of the utmost importance. For three reasons really: A. They like to bluff. a +1int bonus offers a net 3+lvl over a +charisma bonus to bluff. B. They like spontanious casting. prep casting is better.and psions are int based+better than sorcs C. Because of the idea that Cha is weak, a whole slew of newer abilities make use of it in order to make up for this, turning it into one of the more powerful stats. turn undead?thats the only thing off the top of my head i can think of worth useing that involves charisma.and thats only if you use divine feats.
Riznar 03-30-05, 02:07 AM	a +1int bonus offers a net 3+lvl over a +charisma bonus to bluff. No it doesn't, that equals an extra skill besides bluff. I'm talking about a situation where the character will take bluff anyway. prep casting is better.and psions are int based+better than sorcs Prepared casting relies on being prepared. I am not the type of DM who develops strong habits the players can count on. Nor do my antagonists walk around/sleep without protective measures. I don't twart all divinations or somesuch, I like when my players do their research. But the Red Dragon they've been hearing about may be something else entirely. Due to my style, preparing appropriate spells in the appropriate quantities is difficult. And I'll give you Psion, but like fighters and clerics, I think the issue is huge on paper, but very small in live play. turn undead?thats the only thing off the top of my head i can think of worth useing that involves charisma.and thats only if you use divine feats. My entire point with #3 was that outside of core rules, there has been an overcompensating effort to increase the usefulness of Cha. Here is the list, this doesn't include crazy things like the Sublime Chord. RACES/TEMPLATES Gloura Underdark AC/Saves, 7 HD +2 LA Incorporeal Sub-type MM AC Nymph MM AC/Saves, 6HD +7 LA Grimwierd MMIII AC/Saves, 12HD +3 LA CLASSES Akodo Champion 2 Oriental Adv. Saves Arcane Duellist 2 Online AC Blackguard 2 DMG Saves Champion of Gwenyfhar BoED Saves Dread Pirate 9 Complete Adv. AC, Self and Allies, 1/Day Exemplar 4 Complete Adv. Concentration and Fortitude saves Hexblade 2 Complete Warrior Saves (vs Spells) Holy Liberator 4 Complete Divine Saves Iajutsu Master 5 OA Initiative/Damage Marshall 1 Miniatures HB (Various) Master of Yuirwood 9 Un. East Saves Mystic Wonderer Magic of Faerun AC Paladin 2 PHB Saves Soldier of Light Deities & D.gods Saves Witch Hunter OA Saves FEATS Ascetic Mage Complete Adv. AC, switches Monk/Ninja bonus from Wis to Cha Divine Might Complete Warrior Damage Divine Shield Complete Warrior AC Force of Personality Complete Adv. Willpower saves Snowflake Wardancer Frostburn Hit SPELLS/POWERS Ruin Delver's Fortune Online Choose one Save or SR or AC. EQUIPMENT Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows Dragon #314 Damage OTHER Unholy Toughness MM III Hit Points
MadBlue 03-30-05, 09:15 AM	No it doesn't, that equals an extra skill besides bluff. I'm talking about a situation where the character will take bluff anyway.Then they can take Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate or Sleight of Hand, so they can make use of the Synergy Bonus Bluff gives. Consider two characters. One has Int 10 Cha 14, the other has Int 14, Cha 10. The former could take Diplomacy and get a +2 bonus, but the latter could take Diplomacy, and spend skill points on Bluff and Sense Motive to get a +4 bonus to Diplomacy. My entire point with #3 was that outside of core rules, there has been an overcompensating effort to increase the usefulness of Cha. Here is the list, this doesn't include crazy things like the Sublime Chord.I think the point that those of us who feel Charisma needs a boost are making is that Charisma isn't as worthwhile as other stats unless you plan on building your character around it, and for the most part, the boosts Charisma has gotten have been for characters built around it. A character with an 18 Wisdom will get a +4 to Will Saves, and a character with an 18 Intelligence will get 4 bonus skill points per level, just on the basis of the ability score alone, which makes a high Wisdom or Intelligence important to anyone, regardless of the classes and PrCs based around it or the Feats you can take that utilize Wisdom or Intelligence. Unless the character has a lot of Charisma-based skills (and the skill points to spend on them), or special abilities based on Charisma, that 18 is better spent on any other ability, yet Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma are supposed to be equivalents. Of course, in games where there's more social interaction than combat and exploring, players will place a higher priority on Charisma, but they'll also be more likely to take classes that put more emphasis on Charisma and Charisma-based skills. Even then, though, every other ability will give them an advantage regardless of what they spend their skill points and Feats on, or what class special abilities they have. Which is why IMHO, if Charisma gets a boost, it should be one that has an appreciable mechanical effect regardless of character or campaign type. MadBlue
HailSpork 03-30-05, 11:58 AM	Consider two characters. One has Int 10 Cha 14, the other has Int 14, Cha 10. The former could take Diplomacy and get a +2 bonus, but the latter could take Diplomacy, and spend skill points on Bluff and Sense Motive to get a +4 bonus to Diplomacy. Actually, both characters could take the ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive. The one with the higher Charisma will end up 2 points higher.
MadBlue 03-30-05, 10:58 PM	Actually, both characters could take the ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive. The one with the higher Charisma will end up 2 points higher.That's assuming he has the skill points to spend. If the character is a Rogue who spent points to max out Search, Move Silently, Spot, Hide, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Listen and Tumble, he won't have the points for Bluff and Sense Motive as well. With a 14 Intelligence, he'll get two more skills to max out and a bigger bonus to Diplomacy (if he spends the points on Bluff and Sense Motive), plus his Search skill will improve by +2 and he'll speak two more languages, so he can be diplomatic in three languages. Of course if the Rogue put the 14 into Charisma instead, he would probably be taking more Charisma-based skills, so his totals with each Charisma-based skill would be higher, but he'd wind up with two fewer skills and two fewer languages. 5 Ranks each in Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and Sense Motive give Diplomacy a Skill Synergy Bonus of +6. Of course a Bard could easily do this and take two other skills, and potentially have a total Diplomacy skill of +15 at 2nd level, but then again, the Bard wouldn't just be putting a high priority on Charisma for skills. MadBlue
HailSpork 03-31-05, 12:12 AM	Yes, that why they call it prioritization. If bluff is important to you, you have ranks in it. I'm currently playing a rogue with no ranks in search or disable device. In the same campaign, one of the other players is playing a level 5 psion with a total diplomacy of +22. If a psion can do it, a rogue can do it.
MadBlue 03-31-05, 10:16 AM	Yes, that why they call it prioritization. If bluff is important to you, you have ranks in it.Oh, I know. Besides, no skills gives Bluff a Synergy Bonus anyway, so outside of Feats, the only thing that's going to give you a bonus to Bluff is a high Charisma (or a class feature). I was talking about how Intelligence is generally a better investment for skills than Charisma (or any other stat, for that matter). MadBlue
the_one_true_shea 04-04-05, 05:53 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by the_one_true_shea The demoralize function of the Intimidation skill is pretty combat worthy. Also feinting can be very usefull, particularly with improved feint. These are both functions tethered to skills, but you can do either untrained. It would be more useful if you didn't have to get into melee for it to work. Then it would be good for any class (even if it was just that you had to be within 30' and seen). So make the rational choice and extend the Intimidation range, for that matter make Intimidate an attack action instead of a standard action. Throw BAB onto the pile while your at it (and read my regdar's submission (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401816) :dancin: ) How about making intimidate a reactive action? You declare that you are being intimidating and then any one that sees you has to resist. Sorta a return to the morale check days of 2ndED. You dont have to run but in the presence of some things you keep dropping to shaken every round.