What to gestalt with an Incarate [Archive] - Wizards Community

What to gestalt with an Incarate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZiggZagg
04-29-07, 02:58 PM Looking for advice on what to Gestalt with the Incarnate class from Magic of Incarnum. Don't really have a concept yet. Just tryin to get ideas. I don't add my second class until level 5, so I have time to try to find something good. I am currently a 2nd Level Skarn Incarnate. Thanks for the help
JulesCARV
04-29-07, 03:24 PM Barbarian, perhaps? Not sure.
Ariath Ska'Vhor
04-29-07, 05:33 PM Barbarian seems to stick out for me too. Good con synergy.
calronmoonflower
04-29-07, 05:34 PM You should use a class that covers the incarnates weakness and vice versa. They should also synergies well, but an incarnates soulmelds can improve about any classes abilities.

You should look for these features.
Good saves besides Will.
Medium or higher base attack bonus.
Can function with one neutral alignment (barring house rules).
Uses the wisdom score for something.

Cleric, druid, or favored soul should work well.
So would the swordsage.
Comus
04-30-07, 09:23 AM Factotum. By around level 6, you can manage to take care of most party roles with careful selection of soulmelds. It'll also give you tons of skills, and somewhat improve your BAB. Basically the ultimate Jack of all Trades. Throw in Chamelion as desired, though I think Factotum//Incarnate works pretty well by itself.
NoldorForce
04-30-07, 10:55 AM There's a decided lack of synergy between Incarnate and Factotum. Chameleon is also out, as the character in question is a skarn. If it were instead an azurin, then chameleon would be quite good...

Many of the other things mentioned above work well, however. What is the character's alignment, however?
ZiggZagg
04-30-07, 12:12 PM Character's alignment is Chaotic Neutral
NoldorForce
04-30-07, 12:30 PM Cleric, ranger, or something else that helps with archery would be appropriate. Pick up Zen Archery as well. Barbarian and swordsage, being classes focused on melee, are also out. (The soulmelds exclusive to chaotic incarnates all focus on ranged attacks.)

Ooh...if you pick up Share Soulmeld, you can use them to augment your animal companion as well. Which makes for some fun warlock-style blasting with your flying, skirmishing druid/ranger class feature. Having it as a mount will be appropriate.
ZiggZagg
04-30-07, 12:48 PM Thanks for the suggestions. The player in question has now started to think about either the Dread Necromancer or the Dragonfire Adept. Any thoughts on those?
Comus
04-30-07, 12:51 PM There's a decided lack of synergy between Incarnate and Factotum. Chameleon is also out, as the character in question is a skarn. If it were instead an azurin, then chameleon would be quite good...

Many of the other things mentioned above work well, however. What is the character's alignment, however?
I'd argue that the Incarnate and Factotum have a lot of synergy - both benefit from having moderate bonuses in all stats, but can deal with average scores, and Intelligence and Constitution are useful to both classes - Int gives skills in addition to powering Factotum abilities, and Constitution gives HP in addition to powering the Incarnate.

On a 28 point buy, I'd probably put the scores around s-12 d-14 c-14 i-14 w-12 cha-10. I've run the math, and it makes for a very reasonable Jack of all Trades. Best at the skilled portion, of course (better than any other class combination, probably), with a little healing (post level 6, anyway - before then it's as good as none at all), a little fighting (lightning gauntlets and the Factotum abilities), and a little blasting (with the torc).

But, anyway, if you want to go for something else, Warblade into Bloodstorm Blade might work well. The prestige class is easy to qualify for, and adds a lot of ranged utility. And, actually, Warlock might be something to consider as well.
ZiggZagg
04-30-07, 12:55 PM His stats are
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 15
Cha 14

We did a modified-32 point buy
NoldorForce
04-30-07, 01:07 PM Dread Necromancer seems odd, but might work considering that you're sending monsters into combat rather than yourself. Dragonfire Adept, however, just doesn't have synergy, considering that it's a secondary class that doesn't depend on archery. And one of the major roles of a chaotic incarnate is to be an archer.

Though the Factotum helps to boost the Incarnate's skill-monkey aspect, many of its abilities are Int-based, which is how the lack of synergy develops. Additionally, most archers benefit from having lots of attacks. The factotum's combat abilities only work on single attacks, however. This is why ranger might be viable, considering the archery combat style and the number of spells in and out of core that boost ranged attacks, not to mention the skill list and skill points.
ZiggZagg
05-01-07, 11:15 AM any more ideas?
Millennium
05-01-07, 11:48 AM If you're going with a skarn anyway, then an incarnate/monk makes a good choice both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise: the two classes cover each others' weaknesses well. The big disadvantage here is that monks must be Lawful and incarnates must have one Neutral alignment component, so you're restricted to being LN. This might not be a problem for you, but it's something to be aware of in any case.

I've been toying with the idea of an incarnate/druid, which has similar advantages but with fewer alignment issues.
NoldorForce
05-01-07, 02:34 PM If you're going with a skarn anyway, then an incarnate/monk makes a good choice both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise: the two classes cover each others' weaknesses well. The big disadvantage here is that monks must be Lawful and incarnates must have one Neutral alignment component, so you're restricted to being LN. This might not be a problem for you, but it's something to be aware of in any case.I'd asked above what the character's alignment was. It turned out to be Chaotic Neutral. So monk will not work either. A LN monk//incarnate would likely work out, but a CN incarnate is a ranged combatant rather than a melee combatant.
The Crystal Mind
05-01-07, 03:03 PM I would recommend Soulknife, and take Practiced Mind Blade feat to make up for levels you took before soulknife. Sure, at first, it's just melee, but eventually, you can throw your mindblade. Maybe even enter the PrC Soulbow.
NoldorForce
05-01-07, 08:51 PM I would recommend Soulknife, and take Practiced Mind Blade feat to make up for levels you took before soulknife. Sure, at first, it's just melee, but eventually, you can throw your mindblade. Maybe even enter the PrC Soulbow.That will be a long time for the character to wait before being able to make a full ranged attack with its mindblade.

In fact, a bunch of things have been mentioned that work fairly well for a melee Incarnate. However, those Incarnates that are suited to melee are Lawful (for the melee attack bonuses) or Evil (for the melee damage bonuses). This character is instead Chaotic, and the chaos-exclusive abilities deal with ranged attacks.

Urgh...

Please read the thread in its entirety before responding; otherwise you might miss something important.
ZiggZagg
05-02-07, 12:28 AM Yeah...about the Psionics...you must have missed the part in my sig that mentioned my view on them, so let me elaborate on this unspoken houserule that we use in our games...and I probably should have mentioned this LoL...NO PSIONICS!!!
Vengeblade
05-02-07, 04:29 AM Barbarian-goliath barbarian if you can get it. Take the mountain rage sustitution level for barbarian, then you actually get large size when you rage. Focus on feats like cobalt charge, improved essentia capacity. You can eventually with items get a +8 incarnate weapon.

I had one of these in my gestalt campaigns, he destroyed everything. Granted he got lots of party buffs, but he could easily solo CRs two higher then him. We ended the campaign at 17th level, he could have (with vitality belt) over 400 HP. He took power attack, weiled his hammer (good incarnate) with two hands and broke through masonry walls in one hit. His armor ranged from something like 35-45 depending on essentia bonus.

I also let the cleric cast girrilon's(sp?) blessing and then fuse arms for even more strength.

Barbarian/Incarnates can be rediculous.
Engilbrand
05-02-07, 07:21 AM I'm currently playing a Favored Soul/Incarnate, but that guy's stats don't work so well towards that. Seems focused on combat instead of skills or healing. Duskblade could work. Fighter or Barbarian, too. What about the Dragon Shaman? I could see Dragon Shaman actually working out pretty well with that guy. It seems to be the default second class for Gestalt in my group. It gives a lot of nifty abilities and is easy to lay on top of another class.
NoldorForce
05-02-07, 01:46 PM Barbarian-goliath barbarian if you can get it. Take the mountain rage sustitution level for barbarian, then you actually get large size when you rage. Focus on feats like cobalt charge, improved essentia capacity. You can eventually with items get a +8 incarnate weapon.

I had one of these in my gestalt campaigns, he destroyed everything. Granted he got lots of party buffs, but he could easily solo CRs two higher then him. We ended the campaign at 17th level, he could have (with vitality belt) over 400 HP. He took power attack, weiled his hammer (good incarnate) with two hands and broke through masonry walls in one hit. His armor ranged from something like 35-45 depending on essentia bonus.

I also let the cleric cast girrilon's(sp?) blessing and then fuse arms for even more strength.

Barbarian/Incarnates can be rediculous.I'm currently playing a Favored Soul/Incarnate, but that guy's stats don't work so well towards that. Seems focused on combat instead of skills or healing. Duskblade could work. Fighter or Barbarian, too. What about the Dragon Shaman? I could see Dragon Shaman actually working out pretty well with that guy. It seems to be the default second class for Gestalt in my group. It gives a lot of nifty abilities and is easy to lay on top of another class.*Sigh*...I say this and yet PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN.In fact, a bunch of things have been mentioned that work fairly well for a melee Incarnate. However, those Incarnates that are suited to melee are Lawful (for the melee attack bonuses) or Evil (for the melee damage bonuses). This character is instead Chaotic, and the chaos-exclusive abilities deal with ranged attacks.

Urgh...

Please read the thread in its entirety before responding; otherwise you might miss something important.Anyway...aside from the melee classes, the Dragon Shaman was also mentioned. It doesn't do ranged attacks that well; as with the Dragonfire Adept, a breath weapon does not synergize well with bonuses to a full ranged attack.
Comus
05-02-07, 02:04 PM *Sigh*...I say this and yet PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN.Anyway...aside from the melee classes, the Dragon Shaman was also mentioned. It doesn't do ranged attacks that well; as with the Dragonfire Adept, a breath weapon does not synergize well with bonuses to a full ranged attack.
But the question is this - is the character making use of the Chaotic Incarnate's unique powers, or is he simply of that alignment because he wanted a CN character? Unless we know how he's playing (or planning on playing) the character, what party role he's taking, we really can't do much to help aside from throwing class ideas around.

I mean, for all we know he's taken the role of healer, using UMD and Lifebond Vestments (if I have the name of that meld right - I've not got the book with me). A poor healer, true, but that's not the point.
NoldorForce
05-02-07, 03:48 PM Still, going with a class that focuses on melee is a poor choice in this case. There are a number of obvious roles for the general incarnate to fill, among them Secondary Healer, Skill Monkey, Debuffer, and Warlock-Style Blaster. Melee is not among them. There is one soulmeld that boosts melee damage in general, but that's only a small increase; plus, there's no way with the general soulmelds that similarly boost your melee attack modifier. (Incarnate Weapon does not count, considering that it's not a general increase.)

There are better classes to take as secondaries in the gestalt progression to fulfill any of those roles. Rogue, any caster (preferably Wisdom-based), Scout, Ninja, etc.

The problem with classes based on a single shot per round is that they are largely based on that aspect. But as they are being used here as secondary classes, the character will instead wish to use said secondary class to augment the primary class (Chaotic Incarnate). And you're instead getting orthogonal options rather than an augmentation here. Which is why I'm revising my earlier statement on the Factotum; if you're using it for the skill monkey aspect, it works really well. But don't expect some of the other abilities, especially those that only affect singular attacks, to hold up.

This is also why Dread Necromancer may be helpful; sure, you're dealing with MAD...if you care about pumping your Wisdom. Some of the Incarnate's soulmelds have neat effects that depend on Wisdom for their save DCs. (This and the duration of Perfect Meldshaper are actually all the Incarnate uses Wisdom for.) Others augment things from other sources. So as a DN, having a cadre of undead around can be very helpful, both to get in the way and to be augmented by necrocarnum.
Comus
05-02-07, 06:39 PM Still, going with a class that focuses on melee is a poor choice in this case. There are a number of obvious roles for the general incarnate to fill, among them Secondary Healer, Skill Monkey, Debuffer, and Warlock-Style Blaster. Melee is not among them. There is one soulmeld that boosts melee damage in general, but that's only a small increase; plus, there's no way with the general soulmelds that similarly boost your melee attack modifier. (Incarnate Weapon does not count, considering that it's not a general increase.)
Well, there are a number of ways that an Incarnate can become useful in melee... but as we've already noted, it's mostly Law and Evil that handles that role. That said, since Melee (and the HD) is the weak spot of the Incarnate, a case can be made that gestalting with a melee-heavy class like Barbarian or Warblade really covers it up and makes the character more useful in a wider variety of situations. Plus, the additional BAB help with ranged attacks.

There are better classes to take as secondaries in the gestalt progression to fulfill any of those roles. Rogue, any caster (preferably Wisdom-based), Scout, Ninja, etc.
Rogue makes a very good gestalt with Incarnate, but suffers greatly with ranged attacks. Scout does better, but needs 10' of movement for full effect. Ninja is just worse than Rogue IMO. Now, a Cleric might be useful indeed. But that's almost always true in gestalt.

The problem with classes based on a single shot per round is that they are largely based on that aspect. But as they are being used here as secondary classes, the character will instead wish to use said secondary class to augment the primary class (Chaotic Incarnate). And you're instead getting orthogonal options rather than an augmentation here. Which is why I'm revising my earlier statement on the Factotum; if you're using it for the skill monkey aspect, it works really well. But don't expect some of the other abilities, especially those that only affect singular attacks, to hold up.
You're right - but I think the real issue is that it's hard to come up with something that synergizes well with a Jack of All Trades. Which is why I initially suggested Factotum - it also hits the Jack of All Trades chime.

This is also why Dread Necromancer may be helpful; sure, you're dealing with MAD...if you care about pumping your Wisdom. Some of the Incarnate's soulmelds have neat effects that depend on Wisdom for their save DCs. (This and the duration of Perfect Meldshaper are actually all the Incarnate uses Wisdom for.) Others augment things from other sources. So as a DN, having a cadre of undead around can be very helpful, both to get in the way and to be augmented by necrocarnum.
Hm. What about Binder? I don't know the system very well, but maybe it can be useful here.
Vengeblade
05-02-07, 07:12 PM Still, going with a class that focuses on melee is a poor choice in this case. There are a number of obvious roles for the general incarnate to fill, among them Secondary Healer, Skill Monkey, Debuffer, and Warlock-Style Blaster. Melee is not among them.

Well, considering I've seen multiple Incarnate/(Fighter, Barbarian, Warblade, etc) in my campaigns, I can tell you that melee works out great that way.

Now they can produce good damage with incarnate weapon, bluesteel bracers, power attck, and so on.

Let's look at what they can do better then normal melee classes to help out staying on the front line-Adjustable AC for various encounters, possibly flying with the right avatar, possible 30+ SR, immunity to ability damage and drain, various skill boosts when needed, flexible HP for when enemies start hitting hard, and even moe that I can't rememebr right now.

The barbarian really backs him up with good power, then the incarnate can boost that a little (w/o being evil) plus gives him some really good meatshield options for various situations.

Trust me, they are insane at times.
Holy_Beholder
05-03-07, 06:40 PM Bow style ranger may work, they get good Ref and Fort saves, ranged attacks, favored enemy, and other goodies.
Vengeblade
05-03-07, 09:43 PM Honestly, Incarnum just works well with anything. I think it just meshes with melee and skill monkeys the best.

Ranger sounds good, maybe with a soulborn?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZiggZagg 04-29-07, 02:58 PM	Looking for advice on what to Gestalt with the Incarnate class from Magic of Incarnum. Don't really have a concept yet. Just tryin to get ideas. I don't add my second class until level 5, so I have time to try to find something good. I am currently a 2nd Level Skarn Incarnate. Thanks for the help
JulesCARV 04-29-07, 03:24 PM	Barbarian, perhaps? Not sure.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 04-29-07, 05:33 PM	Barbarian seems to stick out for me too. Good con synergy.
calronmoonflower 04-29-07, 05:34 PM	You should use a class that covers the incarnates weakness and vice versa. They should also synergies well, but an incarnates soulmelds can improve about any classes abilities. You should look for these features. Good saves besides Will. Medium or higher base attack bonus. Can function with one neutral alignment (barring house rules). Uses the wisdom score for something. Cleric, druid, or favored soul should work well. So would the swordsage.
Comus 04-30-07, 09:23 AM	Factotum. By around level 6, you can manage to take care of most party roles with careful selection of soulmelds. It'll also give you tons of skills, and somewhat improve your BAB. Basically the ultimate Jack of all Trades. Throw in Chamelion as desired, though I think Factotum//Incarnate works pretty well by itself.
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 10:55 AM	There's a decided lack of synergy between Incarnate and Factotum. Chameleon is also out, as the character in question is a skarn. If it were instead an azurin, then chameleon would be quite good... Many of the other things mentioned above work well, however. What is the character's alignment, however?
ZiggZagg 04-30-07, 12:12 PM	Character's alignment is Chaotic Neutral
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 12:30 PM	Cleric, ranger, or something else that helps with archery would be appropriate. Pick up Zen Archery as well. Barbarian and swordsage, being classes focused on melee, are also out. (The soulmelds exclusive to chaotic incarnates all focus on ranged attacks.) Ooh...if you pick up Share Soulmeld, you can use them to augment your animal companion as well. Which makes for some fun warlock-style blasting with your flying, skirmishing druid/ranger class feature. Having it as a mount will be appropriate.
ZiggZagg 04-30-07, 12:48 PM	Thanks for the suggestions. The player in question has now started to think about either the Dread Necromancer or the Dragonfire Adept. Any thoughts on those?
Comus 04-30-07, 12:51 PM	There's a decided lack of synergy between Incarnate and Factotum. Chameleon is also out, as the character in question is a skarn. If it were instead an azurin, then chameleon would be quite good... Many of the other things mentioned above work well, however. What is the character's alignment, however? I'd argue that the Incarnate and Factotum have a lot of synergy - both benefit from having moderate bonuses in all stats, but can deal with average scores, and Intelligence and Constitution are useful to both classes - Int gives skills in addition to powering Factotum abilities, and Constitution gives HP in addition to powering the Incarnate. On a 28 point buy, I'd probably put the scores around s-12 d-14 c-14 i-14 w-12 cha-10. I've run the math, and it makes for a very reasonable Jack of all Trades. Best at the skilled portion, of course (better than any other class combination, probably), with a little healing (post level 6, anyway - before then it's as good as none at all), a little fighting (lightning gauntlets and the Factotum abilities), and a little blasting (with the torc). But, anyway, if you want to go for something else, Warblade into Bloodstorm Blade might work well. The prestige class is easy to qualify for, and adds a lot of ranged utility. And, actually, Warlock might be something to consider as well.
ZiggZagg 04-30-07, 12:55 PM	His stats are Str 16 Dex 14 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 14 We did a modified-32 point buy
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 01:07 PM	Dread Necromancer seems odd, but might work considering that you're sending monsters into combat rather than yourself. Dragonfire Adept, however, just doesn't have synergy, considering that it's a secondary class that doesn't depend on archery. And one of the major roles of a chaotic incarnate is to be an archer. Though the Factotum helps to boost the Incarnate's skill-monkey aspect, many of its abilities are Int-based, which is how the lack of synergy develops. Additionally, most archers benefit from having lots of attacks. The factotum's combat abilities only work on single attacks, however. This is why ranger might be viable, considering the archery combat style and the number of spells in and out of core that boost ranged attacks, not to mention the skill list and skill points.
ZiggZagg 05-01-07, 11:15 AM	any more ideas?
Millennium 05-01-07, 11:48 AM	If you're going with a skarn anyway, then an incarnate/monk makes a good choice both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise: the two classes cover each others' weaknesses well. The big disadvantage here is that monks must be Lawful and incarnates must have one Neutral alignment component, so you're restricted to being LN. This might not be a problem for you, but it's something to be aware of in any case. I've been toying with the idea of an incarnate/druid, which has similar advantages but with fewer alignment issues.
NoldorForce 05-01-07, 02:34 PM	If you're going with a skarn anyway, then an incarnate/monk makes a good choice both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise: the two classes cover each others' weaknesses well. The big disadvantage here is that monks must be Lawful and incarnates must have one Neutral alignment component, so you're restricted to being LN. This might not be a problem for you, but it's something to be aware of in any case.I'd asked above what the character's alignment was. It turned out to be Chaotic Neutral. So monk will not work either. A LN monk//incarnate would likely work out, but a CN incarnate is a ranged combatant rather than a melee combatant.
The Crystal Mind 05-01-07, 03:03 PM	I would recommend Soulknife, and take Practiced Mind Blade feat to make up for levels you took before soulknife. Sure, at first, it's just melee, but eventually, you can throw your mindblade. Maybe even enter the PrC Soulbow.
NoldorForce 05-01-07, 08:51 PM	I would recommend Soulknife, and take Practiced Mind Blade feat to make up for levels you took before soulknife. Sure, at first, it's just melee, but eventually, you can throw your mindblade. Maybe even enter the PrC Soulbow.That will be a long time for the character to wait before being able to make a full ranged attack with its mindblade. In fact, a bunch of things have been mentioned that work fairly well for a melee Incarnate. However, those Incarnates that are suited to melee are Lawful (for the melee attack bonuses) or Evil (for the melee damage bonuses). This character is instead Chaotic, and the chaos-exclusive abilities deal with ranged attacks. Urgh... Please read the thread in its entirety before responding; otherwise you might miss something important.
ZiggZagg 05-02-07, 12:28 AM	Yeah...about the Psionics...you must have missed the part in my sig that mentioned my view on them, so let me elaborate on this unspoken houserule that we use in our games...and I probably should have mentioned this LoL...NO PSIONICS!!!
Vengeblade 05-02-07, 04:29 AM	Barbarian-goliath barbarian if you can get it. Take the mountain rage sustitution level for barbarian, then you actually get large size when you rage. Focus on feats like cobalt charge, improved essentia capacity. You can eventually with items get a +8 incarnate weapon. I had one of these in my gestalt campaigns, he destroyed everything. Granted he got lots of party buffs, but he could easily solo CRs two higher then him. We ended the campaign at 17th level, he could have (with vitality belt) over 400 HP. He took power attack, weiled his hammer (good incarnate) with two hands and broke through masonry walls in one hit. His armor ranged from something like 35-45 depending on essentia bonus. I also let the cleric cast girrilon's(sp?) blessing and then fuse arms for even more strength. Barbarian/Incarnates can be rediculous.
Engilbrand 05-02-07, 07:21 AM	I'm currently playing a Favored Soul/Incarnate, but that guy's stats don't work so well towards that. Seems focused on combat instead of skills or healing. Duskblade could work. Fighter or Barbarian, too. What about the Dragon Shaman? I could see Dragon Shaman actually working out pretty well with that guy. It seems to be the default second class for Gestalt in my group. It gives a lot of nifty abilities and is easy to lay on top of another class.
NoldorForce 05-02-07, 01:46 PM	Barbarian-goliath barbarian if you can get it. Take the mountain rage sustitution level for barbarian, then you actually get large size when you rage. Focus on feats like cobalt charge, improved essentia capacity. You can eventually with items get a +8 incarnate weapon. I had one of these in my gestalt campaigns, he destroyed everything. Granted he got lots of party buffs, but he could easily solo CRs two higher then him. We ended the campaign at 17th level, he could have (with vitality belt) over 400 HP. He took power attack, weiled his hammer (good incarnate) with two hands and broke through masonry walls in one hit. His armor ranged from something like 35-45 depending on essentia bonus. I also let the cleric cast girrilon's(sp?) blessing and then fuse arms for even more strength. Barbarian/Incarnates can be rediculous.I'm currently playing a Favored Soul/Incarnate, but that guy's stats don't work so well towards that. Seems focused on combat instead of skills or healing. Duskblade could work. Fighter or Barbarian, too. What about the Dragon Shaman? I could see Dragon Shaman actually working out pretty well with that guy. It seems to be the default second class for Gestalt in my group. It gives a lot of nifty abilities and is easy to lay on top of another class.Sigh...I say this and yet PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN.In fact, a bunch of things have been mentioned that work fairly well for a melee Incarnate. However, those Incarnates that are suited to melee are Lawful (for the melee attack bonuses) or Evil (for the melee damage bonuses). This character is instead Chaotic, and the chaos-exclusive abilities deal with ranged attacks. Urgh... Please read the thread in its entirety before responding; otherwise you might miss something important.Anyway...aside from the melee classes, the Dragon Shaman was also mentioned. It doesn't do ranged attacks that well; as with the Dragonfire Adept, a breath weapon does not synergize well with bonuses to a full ranged attack.
Comus 05-02-07, 02:04 PM	Sigh...I say this and yet PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN.Anyway...aside from the melee classes, the Dragon Shaman was also mentioned. It doesn't do ranged attacks that well; as with the Dragonfire Adept, a breath weapon does not synergize well with bonuses to a full ranged attack. But the question is this - is the character making use of the Chaotic Incarnate's unique powers, or is he simply of that alignment because he wanted a CN character? Unless we know how he's playing (or planning on playing) the character, what party role he's taking, we really can't do much to help aside from throwing class ideas around. I mean, for all we know he's taken the role of healer, using UMD and Lifebond Vestments (if I have the name of that meld right - I've not got the book with me). A poor healer, true, but that's not the point.
NoldorForce 05-02-07, 03:48 PM	Still, going with a class that focuses on melee is a poor choice in this case. There are a number of obvious roles for the general incarnate to fill, among them Secondary Healer, Skill Monkey, Debuffer, and Warlock-Style Blaster. Melee is not among them. There is one soulmeld that boosts melee damage in general, but that's only a small increase; plus, there's no way with the general soulmelds that similarly boost your melee attack modifier. (Incarnate Weapon does not count, considering that it's not a general increase.) There are better classes to take as secondaries in the gestalt progression to fulfill any of those roles. Rogue, any caster (preferably Wisdom-based), Scout, Ninja, etc. The problem with classes based on a single shot per round is that they are largely based on that aspect. But as they are being used here as secondary classes, the character will instead wish to use said secondary class to augment the primary class (Chaotic Incarnate). And you're instead getting orthogonal options rather than an augmentation here. Which is why I'm revising my earlier statement on the Factotum; if you're using it for the skill monkey aspect, it works really well. But don't expect some of the other abilities, especially those that only affect singular attacks, to hold up. This is also why Dread Necromancer may be helpful; sure, you're dealing with MAD...if you care about pumping your Wisdom. Some of the Incarnate's soulmelds have neat effects that depend on Wisdom for their save DCs. (This and the duration of Perfect Meldshaper are actually all the Incarnate uses Wisdom for.) Others augment things from other sources. So as a DN, having a cadre of undead around can be very helpful, both to get in the way and to be augmented by necrocarnum.
Comus 05-02-07, 06:39 PM	Still, going with a class that focuses on melee is a poor choice in this case. There are a number of obvious roles for the general incarnate to fill, among them Secondary Healer, Skill Monkey, Debuffer, and Warlock-Style Blaster. Melee is not among them. There is one soulmeld that boosts melee damage in general, but that's only a small increase; plus, there's no way with the general soulmelds that similarly boost your melee attack modifier. (Incarnate Weapon does not count, considering that it's not a general increase.) Well, there are a number of ways that an Incarnate can become useful in melee... but as we've already noted, it's mostly Law and Evil that handles that role. That said, since Melee (and the HD) is the weak spot of the Incarnate, a case can be made that gestalting with a melee-heavy class like Barbarian or Warblade really covers it up and makes the character more useful in a wider variety of situations. Plus, the additional BAB help with ranged attacks. There are better classes to take as secondaries in the gestalt progression to fulfill any of those roles. Rogue, any caster (preferably Wisdom-based), Scout, Ninja, etc. Rogue makes a very good gestalt with Incarnate, but suffers greatly with ranged attacks. Scout does better, but needs 10' of movement for full effect. Ninja is just worse than Rogue IMO. Now, a Cleric might be useful indeed. But that's almost always true in gestalt. The problem with classes based on a single shot per round is that they are largely based on that aspect. But as they are being used here as secondary classes, the character will instead wish to use said secondary class to augment the primary class (Chaotic Incarnate). And you're instead getting orthogonal options rather than an augmentation here. Which is why I'm revising my earlier statement on the Factotum; if you're using it for the skill monkey aspect, it works really well. But don't expect some of the other abilities, especially those that only affect singular attacks, to hold up. You're right - but I think the real issue is that it's hard to come up with something that synergizes well with a Jack of All Trades. Which is why I initially suggested Factotum - it also hits the Jack of All Trades chime. This is also why Dread Necromancer may be helpful; sure, you're dealing with MAD...if you care about pumping your Wisdom. Some of the Incarnate's soulmelds have neat effects that depend on Wisdom for their save DCs. (This and the duration of Perfect Meldshaper are actually all the Incarnate uses Wisdom for.) Others augment things from other sources. So as a DN, having a cadre of undead around can be very helpful, both to get in the way and to be augmented by necrocarnum. Hm. What about Binder? I don't know the system very well, but maybe it can be useful here.
Vengeblade 05-02-07, 07:12 PM	Still, going with a class that focuses on melee is a poor choice in this case. There are a number of obvious roles for the general incarnate to fill, among them Secondary Healer, Skill Monkey, Debuffer, and Warlock-Style Blaster. Melee is not among them. Well, considering I've seen multiple Incarnate/(Fighter, Barbarian, Warblade, etc) in my campaigns, I can tell you that melee works out great that way. Now they can produce good damage with incarnate weapon, bluesteel bracers, power attck, and so on. Let's look at what they can do better then normal melee classes to help out staying on the front line-Adjustable AC for various encounters, possibly flying with the right avatar, possible 30+ SR, immunity to ability damage and drain, various skill boosts when needed, flexible HP for when enemies start hitting hard, and even moe that I can't rememebr right now. The barbarian really backs him up with good power, then the incarnate can boost that a little (w/o being evil) plus gives him some really good meatshield options for various situations. Trust me, they are insane at times.
Holy_Beholder 05-03-07, 06:40 PM	Bow style ranger may work, they get good Ref and Fort saves, ranged attacks, favored enemy, and other goodies.
Vengeblade 05-03-07, 09:43 PM	Honestly, Incarnum just works well with anything. I think it just meshes with melee and skill monkeys the best. Ranger sounds good, maybe with a soulborn?