Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mucknuggle 11-10-04, 12:57 PM	My DM is debating using some of them for the new campaign, but he wants feedback before he decides to use any. So, what do you guys think?
cowdragon 11-10-04, 01:58 PM	We use... -class based armour bonuses -Battle Sorcerer -Meta-magic vaiation(more spell slots to cast meta-magic, not higher level) -bloodlines -traits -flaws -spelltouched feats -paragon races I think that's it! ;) The Cowdragon :mage:
Lord_Anthrax 11-10-04, 04:21 PM	The Alternate Experience Progression rules are awesome, I highly recommend them. You can throw hordes of weak enemies at a party and still give them some XP for it, instead of none or an ad hoc amount. If you want to do high-power play, Gestalt is very fun, though you should knock at least 2 off the CR of everything to balance the XP gain.
markhaus 11-10-04, 08:06 PM	We played w/ paragons and found them to be too powerful (a half orc paragon can take orc paragon: +4 str) The barbarian variants are good (playtested) The fighter variants are ok (not playtested) The rogue variant was switched to a feat every 3 levels (not playtested) Flaws arent used one trait is allowed (cant be too useful and you need a reason)
Greyman 11-11-04, 04:18 AM	Weapon Groups are sweet. They worked well in conjunction with Style feats from Complete Warrior.
JohnSnow 11-11-04, 05:45 PM	In our current campaign, we have been using: -Earth Dwarves (only dwarf type) -Spontaneous Divine casters -Variant: Slower Magical Healing (converts HP damage to nonlethal) -Bloodlines (Fey or Devil required for non-elven Sorcerers) We're also using the Monte Cook variant Sorcerer from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might. Which is pretty similar to the Battle Sorcerer (but with a lower hit die). The slower magical healing rule has been fun, but it changes the game a LOT. We've enjoyed it because it feels less "video-gamey," but we sometimes find ourselves missing enemies because we have to rest and wait rather than just charging forward. On the other hand, the night's rest means our spellcasters are usually functional. We used a variant of granting maximum hit points for the first 3 levels, which has helped us survive. Bookkeeping was a little difficult at first, but we're all used to it now.
trapspringer 11-11-04, 08:35 PM	I allow all varient races and classes in my campaign. I also allow traits and flaws. I dislike the fortitude save vs injury varient. I like the facing varient. The spell component varient is quite cool.
Kurama Youko 11-12-04, 09:14 AM	we used the Fractional Base Save/Attack Bonuses, it works great, finally no more losing a BAB from going into a PrC that use the same BAB progression, especially if your going into a more specialized PrC of your core class like Rogue into Assassin, or Cleric into Divine Disiciple. Things hope to use later on, Battle Sorcerer Prestigous Bard Urban Ranger Item Familiar Legendary Weapon Flaws
Carpe DM 11-12-04, 10:49 AM	I like the vitality and wounds system personally. We use a home-made varient though, where cure spells only cure Wounds (since vitality is not, technically speaking, a wound or "damage"). We also use a home-made rule where wounds aren't just equal to your constitution, they're equal to your constitution plus your level. That way you do get a little bit tougher as you raise levels. The "toughness" series of feats also applies to Wounds, which makes those feats a LOT more attractive. We tried out a system where different types of attacks (bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing) had a certain portion of damage always go directly to wounds, but that got complicated to keep track of, and didn't really affect the game alot anyway. Critical hits we do one of two ways: It's always a natural 20 only, regardless of the weapon. The critical damage type works like this: If the original weapon was natural 20 only, leave the multiplier alone (such as x2, x3, or x4). If the original weapon was 19-20 x2 it becomes 20 x3. If the original weapon was 18-20 x2 it becomes 20 x4. This makes all weapons a natural 20, but some are x2, x3, or x4. A normal critical hit just damages vitality. However, you can opt to have the damage go directly to wounds, but the multiplier drops by one. You can decide at the moment you score the critical hit, before rolling damage, whether you are trying to subdue the enemy (vitality) or kill (wounds). "Improved Critical" functions the same - doubling the threat range to 19-20. Also, one last house rule that keeps monsters from being too weak: Every size step above Large, double wounds for each step. Every size step below Small, divide in half. This means really really big creatures will have a LOT of wounds, while tiny ones will be comparably more frail. For all intents and purposes we figure Small, Medium, and Large creatures are close enough that they all have the same basic wounds. -------- As far as how it balances, my players don't complain about the "cures don't cure vitality" because for one, it makes sense, and two, vitality restores itself pretty fast anyway. This also frees up clerics and druids to be using more interesting spells, which they like. The critical hit system can be dangerous for the party, but we all agree it adds a sense of lethality to combat. Most characters have under 20 wounds, especially at lower levels. One good critical hit could drop them unconcious in an instant. But the same applies to opponents...so this can take some tricky planning on the part of the DM. I've personally seen well-planned opponents drop from criticals that eat up all their wounds in one shot, but I think that adds some cinematic flair to the movie. Think about it: Parched Pete the Pirate Prince has been plaguing the party for quite some time. They finally encounter him and his crew full of scurvy dogs, and the ranger of the party offs Pete in one critical bow shot. The crew, naturally, sees this and as a group thinks "Holy crap, we are SO dead if he just expertly killed Pete in one hit!" and they all scatter and run. So you have to be kind of flexible as a DM in case that happens, but it can be alot of fun too.
Blaque 11-13-04, 01:22 AM	Some things our group has used: Battle Sorcerer (I've played one, t'was fun) Cloistered Cleric Urban Ranger Monk Fighting Styles Racial Paragons Favored Environment for Rangers instead of Favored Enemy Action Points Alternate Paladin Alignments Specialist Wizard Varients The book has been pulling its weight. Can say that. Stuff.
tiggrhoo 11-18-04, 01:35 AM	I use the rule (forgot the name) where you can gradually buy back level adjustments. That means your Drizzt clone eventually catches up to the rest of the party, since his special abilities aren't all that special when he's 20th level. The players love it.
Mind Rogue 11-19-04, 04:56 PM	The Hex-grid style is really good for modelling circular chambers (or hexagonal ones). It also makes most spell areas a little more accurate so I like to use a square grid while in corridors or square rooms, but hexes while outside, in large rooms, or in some oddshaped rooms. It also makes large monster spaces a little more realistic (Why a square? The tarrasque fills up a big ball, not some square with sharp corners. Oh, and you never have to worry about the 2-for-3 squares on the diagonal rule either, which helps alleviate charging a creature wielding a 10 ft pole on the diagonal problem.
Krynus Ogrebane 11-20-04, 12:27 PM	We use: -- Weapon Groups (customized a bit)... it's so much more flexible when it comes time for the DM to make treasure hordes, in addition to the characters having more options with feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. -- Daily Spell Lists... the spellcasters that prepare spells love this, although since this cuts into the sorcerer, that class should be compensated in some tangible way... more skill points per level, more spells known, feats, or some/all of the above. -- Metamagic 3/day... untested yet (not high enough level), but looks promising.
fawr 11-20-04, 11:48 PM	I have used the battle sorcerer and the spontanious cleric and I recommend them. I think that the bloodlines sound cool, but may be underpowered so they haven't been used yet. I use the XP system, because it makes keeping track of XP so much easier for a party with a range of levels. I generally like the varient classes, except for the monk (they are forced into taking a feat with BAB 1 as a pre-req at 1st level) and the paladin. I like the prestige bard/paladin/ranger as a good way of making these classes special. The only disadavantage of this is that I cant use the otherwise promising varients for the bard and ranger, and that 10th level blackgaurds are rarer.
cowdragon 11-20-04, 11:57 PM	That reminds me. We also use the Bloodlines in our group. Here's the thing though. Instead of a level, we pay it off with XP. It takes a bit of work to figure it all out, but I think that it comes to spending 3,000 xp to go from 2nd to 3rd. Spending 6,oooxp from 5th to 6th. And spending 9,000 xp going from 8th to 9th. Something like it. We're trying it out for the first time this campaign. So far, so good. The Guy playing a battle sorcerer going for elemental savant(fire) chose a major efreet bloodline for added flavor. He's already 9,000 XP behind the party, but the bonus attributes and feats have made him happy. So, I guess that's all that really matters huh? :) The Cowdragon :mage:
Astrimedes 11-21-04, 01:30 AM	I have a player in my game with a fey bloodline druid. She's not too powerful, really, but I like it and she seems to just for the flavor element; I made her a strange child of prophecy born to two human parents that turned out to be a dryad-looking human. She has flowers growing out of her hair that bloom when the sun is out, and wilt when she is inside too long. She grows tiny little root tendrils when she stands in one place for a really long time. No game effect, of course, but its just neat. :)
Grakarg 11-23-04, 12:00 AM	We've used: Gestalt rules, which while I was hesitant to introduce them as the DM, I had a small gaming group that had trouble covering the 'bases'. It worked out well and was surprisingly balanced. I was afraid it was going to be overpowered, but it isn't at all (as long as you aren't mixing gestalt and non-gestalt players/NPCs) Alternate Summoning lists. Worked out great for the flavor of the campaign, and made a Thaumaturge PrC fun to play. Metamagic with material components. Worked out well as it sucked extra cash from the party, and was balanced by the party's need to spend the cash on other things.
Hodden 12-06-04, 02:58 PM	I'm starting a new campaign soon, and I'm thinking of using flaws and traits, so any feedback would be appreciated.
cowdragon 12-06-04, 03:02 PM	We started using traits and flaws right away when the book came out. Since then, EVERY player has used them. Everybody takes two traits and at least one flaw. Every character. It's fun. It makes for some interesting roleplaying situations. The Cowdragon :mage:
Thelon Fairblade 12-06-04, 04:09 PM	We are starting a new campaign next month. The party decided FLAWS were too much opportunity to munchkin, so a character must either double the penalties, or take 2 flaws in order to get 1 bonus feat. TRAITS were seen as okay.
Arca 12-06-04, 05:11 PM	I used the spell points system for sorcerers and bards, bloodlines, flaws, and traits. It's all worked pretty well so far.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 06:06 PM	Traits Flaws Bloodlines Paragons Variant versions of classes Most of it is good. I don't like gestault, that's not happening in my campaign. And of course, I review whatever variants they ask to do, but most of it seems reasonable.
evangelion1010 12-06-04, 08:42 PM	Traits and flaws - Not bad overall, allows for more customization, partially for roleplaying, but also to create the proper feel for a character. Flaws - allow them, but only in higher power campaigns or groups with good roll players. Its basically a free feat. You could also allow the DM to pick one for you, to ensure it does hinder your character. -Alternate classes - I like most of them, but have only playtested a few. Cloisterd cleric I like, and Urban ranger i like better than the real ranger. The fighter and rogue alternatives didn't appeal much to me. Level buy-out: will be trying this out in the next campaign as i'm playing a +2 ECL race. Weapon groups - I like them. Character armor progression - seems unbalanced... i multiclass to cleric 1 and get 12 armor at level 20, which is effective against touch attacks - Unless you're wearing armor with AC > 12, its pointless to wear armor - spend the money on something else. This heavily benefits high dex builds, since they get free armor essentially, and something else to use their bracer slot for... i dislike it, and i never even play heavy armor builds.
mycroft65536 12-06-04, 11:54 PM	Traits are good I use flawsbut they make me uneasy as a player and as a DM Variant classes are all used racial pargons are great That's all i got.
sjogren 12-11-04, 01:14 PM	That reminds me. We also use the Bloodlines in our group. Here's the thing though. Instead of a level, we pay it off with XP. It takes a bit of work to figure it all out, but I think that it comes to spending 3,000 xp to go from 2nd to 3rd. Spending 6,oooxp from 5th to 6th. And spending 9,000 xp going from 8th to 9th. I like the concept of bloodlines but the mechanics of it strikes me as a bit strange. Basically it's delayed LA but that counts as class levels for determining level-dependent stuff, right? What makes me kinda nervous is that say you pick a minor bloodline (I find the idea of a devil or fey bloodline Warlock to be kinda neat), then you have to "pay" your LA before level 12, but if the campaign only runs until level 10, then you've gotten a bunch of stuff for...well, free... And what's your ECL after taking one of these "levels"? I'm not sure how your system works, 3000xp to go from 2nd to 3rd? Does that include the normal 2000xp to go from 2nd to 3rd or is it in addition to that? Or is it meant to correspond to LA buyoff?
the Horc 12-11-04, 02:51 PM	I use Flaws, Traits, Reputation, and Weapon groups. They're fun.
Arcane Guyver 12-11-04, 03:01 PM	Character armor progression - seems unbalanced... And they are. I tried them with my group, who seemed thrilled at the prospect of just dodging attacks and using armor to soak up damage. Until they fought a troupe of goblin warriors. Since warriors are good with all armor, they get the highest AC bonus. Suddenly, nobody could hit the little dirtbags, and if they did, their leather armor would soak up some of the damage. Good idea, but not well implemented. I'm surprised nobody has tried the 'Players Roll all the Dice' variant. It's quite good, helps keep players in the game outside of their turn.
cowdragon 12-11-04, 03:53 PM	it's meant to correspond to the LA buyoff. I think we houseruled some mechanic in though. :confused: I pay 2000 to go from 2nd level to 3rd. But first I have to pay 2000 for the bloodline is how we are doing it right now. Occasionally I catch up for a night, but then I'm behinf the group again. It's okay though. I like the bloodlines, I don't mind paying the extra XP. Major bloodlines are expensive though. :eek: The Cowdragon :mage:
Xorial 12-11-04, 04:31 PM	As a DM I have allowed: Battle Sorcerer Bloodlines Paragon Race Classes I automatically instituted: Spell Points Action Points Weapons Groups
Tealgorthian 12-12-04, 01:15 PM	Has anyone tried the Druid varient that gives up Wildshape for Monk movement and AC? I'm thinking of trying to get it past my DM for an Eberron game. It's for my Shifter (race, not class)
cowdragon 12-12-04, 02:23 PM	I really didn't care for the spell point system offered. I felt that it shafted the sorcerer on a bunch of levels. First, it gave the wizard spontanious casting, and second it didn't give them enough spell points. Third, by implementing the pumpable spells thing they just made it too complicated. Although it was a nice try, I have to give it a 2 out of 5 stars. :thumbsdow The Cowdragon :mage:
Thapthim 12-12-04, 06:35 PM	This is from a Player view. Gestaulted - I play a Planar Ranger/Psionic Nomad, that may seemed over powered, but with a all stats are ten, and you have 15 points straight up (max of 18 in any stat) you are pretty stretched for stat points. All NPCs are Gestalted and all the Monsters are brought up in HD, or have nasty templates attached to them. Our DM made it that unless your race had Favoured Classed: Any, you had to choose your favoured class as one of your gestaled classes (he added some extra favoured for some of the races). Once you leave your initial gestalted classes you can't return (so you better be darn sure you want to take that prestige class). The problem is that we have quite a few caster/caster people in the group. Classe Defensive Bonuses - Because a level 20 warrior should know how to avoid a hit better then a level 1 warrior. VS Rolling = both attacker and defender roll and add thier bonuses, this has worked quite sell. We also do this for spell saves, the caster sets the DC then the defender would attempt to use thier resitance. This works well most of the time except when the Wilder lost control on his powers and he rolled naturals twenties that the party had to save against. Weapon groups - Much Much better I believe. Couple Other Rules: Psionics and Magic are different whoever rolls the most ones that night gets bonues exp.
Baron Rod 12-15-04, 01:39 AM	We have used the Generic classes the Expert, and the Warrior and have really enjoyed them in the game. No one tried the Spellcaster because there are just too many various things to try with mages and clerics that they just didn't want to give up having those choices. The Mages and Cleric have tried the spell point system and say it works good for the most part. Just have to tweak some feats to fit the spell point system. We use Flaws and Traits and they work nicely to round out a character. Baron Rod
cowdragon 12-16-04, 12:59 AM	Has anybody tried Vitalizing magic yet? If so, how did it go for you? At mid to high levels I assume it rocks. But at lower levels it seems to be detrimental to even cast one as a wizard, maybe two as a sorcerer. How'd it work for you? The Cowdragon :mage:
Telaria 12-16-04, 05:28 AM	I've used gestalt classes both as a player and GM, and think that with a bit of watching, they're quite good. Allows for some nicely rounded PC ideas, although, yes, it can get broken under a bad player or a bad DM, and requires watchfulness. I love and adore spellpoints. I've played with those in several worlds both as UA presents them, and in other manners. As someone who prefers flexibility in casting, I think they're utterly darling. I played in a lower power world using Vitality and Wound Points, and really enjoyed the element of 'risk' it added when we reached what was, for that world, very high levels. Sure, you might have loads more HP than Joe Schmuck, but a lucky hit by him can still kill you if you screw up too badly. Sadly, it's not a rule that appeals to the main group I play with these days, so I haven't seen it in action in a more magic heavy world, or a high power world, and I suspect it's not really a good option in those situations. I'm currently nearing the end of a Modern game I'm running where all the players were given Bloodline levels rather than normal when appropriate, and much of the goal of the game has been for the PCs to discover their heritage and what awakened these abilities in them. Not the way Bloodlines are normally used, but it's made for a very popular game with my players, and since we've kept them low level, it doesn't upset the power balance for the setting I created for it. So I consider Bloodlines to have potential, even if I'm _still_ not sure I actually read and interperted the rules correctly. Flaws/Traits are generally allowed in the games I play in, but I've yet to see anyone seriously use them to any degree, and I'm tempted to dismiss them. Oh! I almost forgot. Complex skill checks - another big thumbs up from me.
Braids 12-16-04, 12:50 PM	I plan to try Vitality/Wound points in my next game, and I will eventually use the Generic classes and Possible the spell points system.
Munz 12-17-04, 08:51 AM	I know they have a system in there that treats Armor as Hardness against attacks. Has anyone used this? Does it work well? I would think it would help out the players alot! And the monsters and NPCs as well... but more importantly, I would think it would encourage the players to find other ways around beating an opponent than just hacking him down. Any thoughts or advice? I don't have the UA yet so I haven't been able to implement a lot from it. Thanks
FriendoftheDork 12-20-04, 06:31 PM	I haven't tested half the rules there but these I've tried: Spontaneous metamagic: Very fun. Makes spellcasters better, but that's ok in my book. Fun as player and DM both. Item familiar: Horribly overpowered. 10% xp bonus, alot of free skill bonuses, alot of free spell slots, or alot of free weapon/armor abilities. Unless the DM systematrically robs the PCs of all equipment there is no reason not to take the feat. Weapon groups: Good for clerics and such, but bad for wizards and fighters. I think the current rules works ok here so no need to change them. Flaws: Nice concept, but wrong game. Instead of making the PCs more fun and interesting and memorable, it became a cheap way of getting bonus feats. My own wizard took nomcombatant (-2 melee) and inattentive (-4 spot and listen). So far the extra feats were well worth it, and only the spot and listen penalty was annoying. I prefer flaws that are less mechanic. Cloistered cleric: Nice variation of core class that allows for more scholary and less martial cleric. Neither too good or too bad. Not a good choise for the standard divine warrior and healer, but nice for the more wizardly type. Despite alot more skill points, this version is actually weaker in a game with normal amount of combat. Ok, that's it I think.
Cymraegmorgan 12-20-04, 07:13 PM	We tested the Paladin variants. My advice, go with only LG and LE. The Chaotic variants are ...difficult to adjudicate. But a LE Paladin kicks major hiney. We found Paragons blah. LA buyoff: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
strenoth 12-20-04, 09:27 PM	well, In one game I'm playing in, we are using: For Game Play altering effects: Armor=Damage Reduction BaB=Ac bonus for 'additive' rules: Paragon Classes Bloodlines Possibly more additives are available, but none have been asked for. the change in AC plays in my character's favor, he's a warlock, so it adds greatly to his survivablity, but his damage is energy based, so armor doesn't soak it. :)
Nani? 12-22-04, 08:14 AM	I designed and implimented the use of incantations I found them fun and useful, not nescasary for play but for figureing out what a magical effects actually do. I have had players use the wilderness rogue and the the second enchanter variant and both players seem to like it. Our sorceress used started out as a Human Paragon 1/ Sorceress 1 and used it creatively to address the weaknesses of that class. In my opinion, the UA character varients are good in the sense that they reward creative players without unbalanceing things. Some varients like the planar Ranger do not personally appeal to me. On the other hand, you can end up with some odd questions. For example, I was looking at a Divine Bard (spellcasting considered divine) and with an eventual wonderworker PrC for myself and was wondering about balance issues. Here are a couple of my incantation examples, the first of which is "holiday themed" Dark Man (Divination) This incantation is used by young unmarried females during the either on new years or the winter solstice as part of the “holiday festivities”. It is thought to be a harmless game, predicting whom their husbands are to be. The dark man they believe is their husband to be. Each person recites a short incantation, “Dark Man Dark Man show your self to me” and tosses a nut in the fire. The nut pops out to trace the form of letters. The girl then gets a description which may be accurate (successful Perform: chant, DC 12) or not. Results such as a Blacksmith, a dark haired man, etc, are common. If there are two failures in a row, the girl who last failed gets the “result: Dark Man” all players laugh and forget about it. All are under the delusion that this is a simple party game. But, if that girl sleeps at all that night the Dark Man comes to her in her dreams and she is blissfully “wedded”. If the character is 4th level or 1st level in a class with divine spell casting ability, even if they can’t cast yet, she may make a will save (DC 16+ their own Cha modifier, the Dark Man tries harder to ensnare the “talented”) to “escape”. If they save, they remember vague dreams of a wedding much like the scene in Legend (of course it was only a dream). If they fail, or if they never get a save, they are “augmented” with the following “wedding gift”. Regardless, only one girl (if that) is selected in the casting. After all, evil can be subtle. Wedding gift Alignment: Good/Evil component becomes Evil. +1 level Sorceress, the GM may substitute a level in any spell casting class they already have. Charisma: +4 to a minimum of 15. This is a gradual effect, with the Charisma going up 1 point per month. Feat: Skill focus: Bluff, at GM’s option it may replace a previous feat to empathize the new “direction” her life has taken. She is also eligible and eager to receive feats in the Book of Vile Darkness. Deity: All previous loyalties are dropped in favor of the Dark Man. Effective level: 6th Skill Check: Perform (chant: 12) Failure: Delusion, Augmentation Components: V,S,M,F Casting time: 60 minutes Range: Close Duration: hours, to give everyone time to “play” Saving throw: None Spell resistance: No Factors: Requires a skill not on wizard list -1, casting time severely restricted-8, Range: Close -4, target limited: unmarried humanoid females -3 minutes to hours (they are doing this all night) +2, 11 or more casters (this is a “party game”, often; the hostess is a previous “bride” who may “encourage” a target to fail. “Gee dear, you look tired, why don’t you lie down in the back room.”)-6. Moradin’s Forge (Evocation) When a Dwarven clan is about to be overwhelmed by evil humanoids, this incantation is used to take as many foes with them as possible. A blacksmith hammers hot metal as while one of his assistants stokes the bellows hotter and hotter. At the same time a chanter, usually a cleric recites the history of the clan and beseeches the soul forger to help them take as many enemies as possible to the next world with them. Often there are several dwarves stationed in the room to, in necessary, take the place of one of the casters if their enemies burst in the room. Each verse ends with the refrain: I was forged at the Dwarf father’s forge, Tonight, I feast in his hall, While my enemies are dead at my feet If the incantation goes wrong, all three casters are taken by the passion of their act, and join their ancestors before the spell can be completed. If the spell is completed the forge fire burst forth from the forge, killing the last dwarves of the clan and many of their enemies. Once this incantation is cast, the forge used for a component can never be relit by any means. Effective level: 9 Skill Check: Craft Blacksmith 5, Perform Chant: 4 DC: 23 Failure: Death Components: V, S, M, XP, Casting Time: 90 minutes Range: touch (centered on the forge) Effect: 18d6 firestorm over a 2560 ft radius Duration: Instantaneous Saving throw: reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes Requires checks involving more then one skill not on Wizards class list -2 Range medium to touch -4 Area doubled *7 (2560 ft Radius) +21 Expensive material component (forge) -4, XP Component 1000 -10 (not like they’ll need it), Extra casters (3) -2 Backlash 18d6 fire damage -9 effecting secondary casters -1 (ground zero effect) Needless to say, nobody is known to have cast this incantation twice. Instruction (Enchantment) By law, the Imperial Magic Users Guild are the only arcane spell casters in the Empire. While this is not the case in reality, especially in the Duchy, they do have legal broad legal powers, most notably the power to recruit apprentices against their own will and the will of their parents. Most of these children (typically under ten) adjust to their new surroundings fairly quickly and succumb to the “encouragement” to become loyal guild members, worshipers of Wee-Jas and Augustus, and willing servants of the empire. Every once in a while you have a child who is particularly stubborn. When that happens the guild will, as a last resort, cast this spell. The child is taken from the dorm during the dark of the moon for an all night session of “counseling” with their teachers. It is rumored that Wee Jas herself sometimes attends these sessions. The result is typically a complete turnaround in the attitude of the “subject”. In fact, as far as the guild knows, it is 100% successful. What the guild doesn’t know is that occasionally these children are protected by some outside force such as an ancestral deity, outsider, or if not protected, uses the opportunity to sneak in and establish a relationship with the child. The child’s loyalty are henceforth read as a successful result from divinations and protected from enchantments until “graduation”. Such children often develop high bluff and diplomacy skills anyway. Since the guild is used to dealing with human children, non humans get a +3 on the save. This spell is painful, (literally) for the teachers to cast, as it ends with the apparent suicide of the teachers who have “failed” to instruct the student. Often classes are canceled the next day for the entire school. Effective level 7th Skill Check: Knowledge: Arcana (3 successes), Diplomacy (2), Knowledge: Religion (2) at DC 25 Failure: Delusion Components: V, S, M, XP, B Casting time: 7 hours Range: Personal Target: 1 Student Duration: Permanent Save: DC+10+casters Int Modifier. Spell resistance: Yes Result: Alignment shift to Lawful neutral, loyalty to the guild. Skill checks, more then one including one non mage skill (-2) 1 hour between checks (-2) Restricted casting time (-4) limited targets: guild students (-3) Duration: Permanent (+20) Components: Magic Incense 5000 gp (-2) 11+ secondary casters (-6) 4d6 backlash damage effects all casters (-3) (“see the pain you put us through”) 500Xp cost (-5)
siege72 12-22-04, 09:52 AM	My DM is debating using some of them for the new campaign, but he wants feedback before he decides to use any. So, what do you guys think? I've added in the Paladin of Freedom (since no one wants to be Awful Good). No one's tried that yet. I'm also using Craft Points, with one modification. The characters get to work on items "in the background", but it still takes 1 day per 1000 XP to complete. The time can be halved (to a minimum of one day) by doubling the number of craft points spent.