Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jameswilliamogle 08-17-05, 03:45 PM	In a normal campaign (ie a WotC published campaign, either FR LG or Eb), and with a 28 point buy, if a player really wanted to play a Gestalt character, how much would that ability be worth in terms of sacrifices? What should I take away from them, in terms of feats, levels, ability points, etc., to make them equal to the other characters?
Paul Hopebringer 08-17-05, 04:18 PM	Since Gestalt characters arn't balanced at all, to themselves as much as to anything else, there is no real answer to that question. If the player wants a certain concept, make him multiclass... Unless you really arn't concerned about balance.
Calibron 08-17-05, 05:33 PM	The rule of thumb is everyone's Gestalt or no one is. I wouldn't deviate from this unless all your other PCs want powerful things too, like +2 or 3 LA races/templates without having to suffer the LA.
jameswilliamogle 08-17-05, 05:40 PM	i'm more interested in the players having fun than balance in the game, that's true. multiclassing doesn't always fit character concept, especially when starting at 1st level and then having to fit in multiclassing as part of the build (for example, a rogue multiclassing into monk - the concept of the 2 are kind of at odds; i'd much rather have a gestalt character that is conceptually more to the point right away). if i could take away some abilities from the character right away, then the balance would be there, and i wouldn't have to adjucate every single case as seperate examples. edit: that's a good example, calibron, maybe i'll do that. what do you think a good LA would be (they'll level about 1 time per 2 to 3 sessions)? i'm thinking +3. edit to tha edit: or if nobody else wants to play a +LA character or gestalt, then i'll say no.
Lord Schpungus 08-17-05, 06:29 PM	I'd say +2 LA just for the gestalt.
Udnamtam 08-17-05, 06:31 PM	The best option would be to create a single class progression, and just use the gestalting rules for BAB, saves, HD etc. and apply the class abilites as it seems balanced, maybe even delay a few of the abilities so its a little more spread out. If you're going to try and balance it anyway, you're just going to run into all sorts of bad news. If you're willing to put up with it, be my guest but it'll end up a lot more trouble than its worth.
jameswilliamogle 08-18-05, 09:54 AM	ok thanks guys.
Scion of Coldshard 08-18-05, 12:07 PM	I am running an all gestalt game right now. A gestalt character is very roughly one level ahead of a nongestalt character (I simply treat them all as being one level higher than they actually are and everything is fine). Some combos are better than others however, and the answer will vary with the choice that the player wants to make. I would say that being treated as LA +1 and giving up 3 feats over the course of 20 levels would make it roughly equivalent. LA +2 means that if you didnt have the template/whatever then it would take roughly two of you to equal the same amount of power level. While a gestalt character does have some of the abilities of two characters they are still limited to the same number of actions a round, and not everything stacks, so by default they are not as good as two characters each, although they are close in some ways. It will of course be better than many other wotc +1 LA templates, but then that is mainly because most of those such a 'lot' and are not worth anywhere near +1 LA to begin with.
Lina_Inverse 08-18-05, 06:29 PM	as per the book.Gestalt charecters treat challenges as 1 lower.thus LA+1 is fair.+2 at the most.
weasel fierce 08-18-05, 06:53 PM	You may want to still keep an eye on things, since some combos are likely to be more effective than others, particularly ones that grant completely different abilities.
Xeviat-DM 08-18-05, 07:51 PM	While it is true that some builds can seem abusive (Fighter/Wizard is one), remember that they face not only the same restrictions of both classes (won't be able to wear great armor), but they face serious Multiple Ability Dependancy syndrome (MAD); They will need a high str for to hit, a high dex for AC to make up for their armor, a decent con to make up for their lack of armor, and a high Int to power their spells. The level adjustment of +2 is balanced in my opinion, but players of non-gestalted charcters may feel cheesed. At low levels, the gestalt character's going to be behind in hit points. Consult the alternative experince point progression in the back of UA and you'll see that a 20th level character has twice the XP of an 18th level character. Additionally, CRs state that two CR 18 characters equal an EL 20 encounter, but they have more turns and don't have to deal with only one set of ability score points. But then again, they're only around for one fight typically, while the PC gains added stamina, especially in the case of a Wizard/Sorcerer. The best advice I can give is to use LA +2, and then just keep an eye on the character. Also, come up with a reason why the character is gestalt; an idea that just came to mind would be maybe the character started out as two but they were joined magically, and now share the same body and mind. Lastly, maybe you'll want to let the player roll 5d6 drop the lowest two to make up for the higher stat requirements.
Paul Hopebringer 08-20-05, 01:43 PM	:OMG! MAKE UP FOR THE HIGHER STAT REQUIRMENT!!!! :nonono:
AramilWindwalker 08-20-05, 03:18 PM	that's like saying monks and paladins should get higher point buy than rogues or fighters because they have more attributes to depend on
Gehenna 08-20-05, 07:29 PM	Perhaps you could just take away their free feat every 3 levels and/or their free stat point every four.