Post/Author/DateTime	Post
77IM 03-05-04, 10:34 AM	Hello, I'm starting a new barbarian character and I'm curious what people think about the game balance of Whirling Frenzy vs. just regular barbarian rage. Let's compare two barbarians in rage, one with normal rage and one with Whirling Frenzy. Both barbarians get +4 Strength plus some minor saving throw boost (+2 Will for normal rage, +2 Reflex for whirling frenzy), which seems about evenly matched. Each also gets a saving throw special ability later (indomitable will for normal rage, evasion for whirling frenzy) which seem roughly balanced to me. Normal rage barbarian gets +4 Con, -2 AC. (Among other things, this means his rage lasts 2 rounds longer.) Whirling frenzy barbarian gets +2 AC, and a "Flurry"-type ability that lets him make an extra attack as part of a full attack, but all attacks are at -2. So there's the breakdown. One guy gets +4 Con, the other gets +4 AC AND Flurry of Blows (for simplicity, I'm comparing their ACs to each other, so the whirling guy gets a net +4 over the regular guy). My questions for the group: 1. Is one of these stronger than the other, in the general case? 3. Are there any particular circumstances/character builds in which one type of rage is clearly much stronger than the other? 3. Is the Whirling Frenzy so much stronger/weaker than normal rage that it is broken/unplayable? Thanks for your help. I like the Whirling Frenzy better, but I don't want to use it if it is going to make my character too much stronger or weaker than the rest of the party. -- 77IM
Derren S. 03-05-04, 11:02 AM	Imo Whirling Frenzy is better. The -2 AC from rage negates the extra HP to some extend because the babarian is hit more often. Also the extra HP may prove dangerous when the rage ends dropping the babarian into negative. A extra attack at teh highest BAB is nothing to scoff at. In mid to high level such an attack can deal much damage which would knoch down the extra HP gained by rage if a figth babarian vs. babarian would happen. The -2 to hit for all attacks only nullfies the increased attack by the +4 strength. Conclusion. When you fight an opponent which is very hard to hit (18+) go for rage. Otherwise whirling frenzy is much better.
CRGreathouse 03-05-04, 11:38 AM	Whirling Frenzy isn't even comparable to standard rage -- it's much better. The AC difference more than makes up for the loss of Con, and removes the problem of dropping out of rage. The extra attack is tremendously powerful. Admittedly, losing the Will bonus for limited evasion isn't a good trade, but Whirling Frenzy is still much better.
Xorial 03-05-04, 12:12 PM	I think Whirling Frenzy is better for the reasons already stated. It would be an ability that I would replace Whirlwind attack with. The main problem would be the intended purpose of the feat vs the ability.
Eagle Prince 03-05-04, 01:09 PM	Sometimes hit points are better than AC. Like if you're fighting a dragon, chances are he's going to hit every time whether you go down 2 AC or up 2 AC, too big of a difference to matter. The Con bonus also gives you +2 on Fort saves, which is nice I guess. The extra 2 rounds of rage I can't speak from experience, since my last barbarian had a really high Con and Extended Rage (his rage lasted around 20 rounds). But if your Barb has wussy Con, I could see that making a difference. Rage isn't very helpful if you never use it the first round of combat in fear it will run out.
fey_master 03-05-04, 11:12 PM	I esaly would choose rage over whirling frenzy. i mean sure u get get an ac bonus, bu with rage u can stack othe tyes of rages with it, for example, rage + frenzy + berserk. i mean...... that's over 12 str bonus + u can't die while in frenzy ect.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-06-04, 12:34 PM	What Fey said, except with a firmer grasp on the English language. (Just playing, there, Fey. ;) ) Whirling frenzy looks a bit better for the most part, but if you want to go prestige, then frenzy doesn't stack with other rage type effects.
fey_master 03-06-04, 12:45 PM	it's ok:) :) :) :)
Snow Savant 03-06-04, 03:43 PM	One of the strongest martial Barbarian feats in the game right now is Karmic Strike (from CW). Karmic Strike works a heck of a lot better with traditional Rage, because you actually *want* to get hit. Especially if you are going the mass damage-dealing route with Frenzied Berserker, etc. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Lago AM3P 03-07-04, 01:50 PM	Frenzy is only better if you don't have other forms of rage from prestige classes or other core classes. Since you're using a book of alternate rule sets, I am finding this extremely unlikely.
CompleteSatori 03-08-04, 01:34 AM	Originally posted by fey_master I esaly would choose rage over whirling frenzy. i mean sure u get get an ac bonus, bu with rage u can stack othe tyes of rages with it, for example, rage + frenzy + berserk. i mean...... that's over 12 str bonus + u can't die while in frenzy ect. Thats actually totalling out to Rage (+4 or +6), Frenzy (+6 or +10), and Berserk (+6) = +16 or +22 to Strength. <waves to Snow>
77IM 03-08-04, 11:14 AM	Thanks for all your input! The consensus seems to be, "Whirling Frenzy is much better on its own, but Rage is better in combination with certain Prestige Classes or feats." Since I'm not going to use any of those Prestige Classes or feats, this makes Whirling Frenzy much better. However, I think it's too much better, and my DM agreed. (He was reading the rule and nodding and going, "Mmm-hmmm..." and then when he got to the "Flurry of Blows" part his jaw dropped and he said, "No way.") So, I'm going with the normal rage. (For the curious, I'm playing a lizardfok barbarian battle-sorcerer going for Dragon Disciple, in a slightly sub-optimal build, so the rage isn't going to make or break the character.) -- 77IM
Galethorn 03-08-04, 03:20 PM	Now, what if you dropped the AC bonus, and halved the strength bonus? That's what I'd do...well, or else keep the strength, but give a -2 penalty to AC because "you're putting all of your effort into hitting hard and fast, so you're less focused on not getting hit". So, it would be +4 strength, and the flurry as bonuses, and -2ac as the penalty.
Xeviat-DM 03-08-04, 04:03 PM	But do remember, regular rage will last at least 2 rounds longer than normal rage, 3 rounds with greater and 4 with mighty, than whirling frenzy. Does whirling frenzy increase to +6 str, +3 AC at level 12? Does whirling frenzy increase to +8 str, +4 AC at level 16?
Galethorn 03-08-04, 04:07 PM	Yes, yes it does. I still like my variant though--I think I'll try playtesting it a bit.