Whirling Frenzy's Extra Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Whirling Frenzy's Extra Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ananvilhurtz
01-14-08, 08:58 PM Do you receive whirling frenzy's extra attack at the end of a charge? Or only when full-attacking?

Are there any official FAQs or Errata on this?
Asurya
01-15-08, 03:14 AM I would say it grants you another hit at your highest BAB-2 whenever you want (std atk, charge, full atk) because:

SRD on whirling frenzy:
While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.
vs.
SRD on Haste:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

(emphasis mine)
darokinblade
01-15-08, 09:28 AM SRD on whirling frenzy:
While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.
vs.
SRD on Haste:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

(emphasis mine)

This is incorrect. Per the SRD:
Multiple Attacks
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack.
Selgard
01-15-08, 10:04 AM I think I would vote that he gets an extra attack even when not making a full attack.

Abilities modify the base text of the SRD/PHB. Normally- full attack required. This special ability has no such restriction while the Haste spell clearly wants the base rule applied.

Just my $.02
darokinblade
01-15-08, 10:49 AM I think I would vote that he gets an extra attack even when not making a full attack.

Abilities modify the base text of the SRD/PHB. Normally- full attack required. This special ability has no such restriction while the Haste spell clearly wants the base rule applied.

Just my $.02

While as a DM, you totally have the ability to make that distinction, I cannot agree. It has been said many times that unless an ability/feat specifically states it overrides a rule, the rule still applies.

Now, if the whirling frenzy ability had "This ability allows more than one attack as a standard action." at the end of it, I would agree completely.

If every ability had to state that rules that normally should apply, do apply, then the books would be significantly longer and confusing.
Selgard
01-15-08, 11:22 AM Why does haste add the language then? Surely not to waste ink.
Haste is even In the book as the primary rule.

I agree with Asurya. The text says one extra attack in a round. Not one extra attack with a full round of attacks.

Similiar abilities (such as Haste, as was noted in earlier posts) explain that their abilities only work with the full attack action. There is no such limitation in "Whirling Frenzy".
darokinblade
01-15-08, 12:23 PM From SRD on Manyshot:

Benefit

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

A similar ability, which does allow you to make multiple attacks as a standard action, Manyshot, SPECIFICALLY says that it overrides the rules.

Since this ability lacks a specific description as to whether the rule should apply or not, it should apply.
Asurya
01-16-08, 10:14 AM darokinblade, something tells me that you will not agree with us, no matter what, but bear with me:
I took the example of Haste because I knew it gave an extra atk and because it thematically fits the descrition of Whirling Frenzy... but in the case of haste a special line is added to say when you can use your extra atk
OTOH, ManyShot and ToB::Wolf fang strike do say as a std action that you seem to wait for.
as for the SRD quote on multiple atks, both MHb::DoubleHit and CAdv::DualStrike lets you atk multiple time in something which is not a full-atk (std action and AoO respectively)

conclusion? RAW can be confusing for a number of reason, one of which is the apparent contradictary in choice of word and sentence. Moreover, as on the 'house rules' part of the forum I felt free to give MY ruling of the matter if I were the OP's DM.
Sorry if I didn't made myself clear enough before.
(in fact if the rules were not confusing, the OP wouldn't have brought up the question in the first place)
nonsi
01-17-08, 08:02 AM darokinblade, something tells me that you will not agree with us, no matter what, but bear with me:
I took the example of Haste because I knew it gave an extra atk and because it thematically fits the descrition of Whirling Frenzy... but in the case of haste a special line is added to say when you can use your extra atk
OTOH, ManyShot and ToB::Wolf fang strike do say as a std action that you seem to wait for.
as for the SRD quote on multiple atks, both MHb::DoubleHit and CAdv::DualStrike lets you atk multiple time in something which is not a full-atk (std action and AoO respectively)

conclusion? RAW can be confusing for a number of reason, one of which is the apparent contradictary in choice of word and sentence. Moreover, as on the 'house rules' part of the forum I felt free to give MY ruling of the matter if I were the OP's DM.
Sorry if I didn't made myself clear enough before.
(in fact if the rules were not confusing, the OP wouldn't have brought up the question in the first place)

That's quite true.
Most people tend to view the RAW as a holy text rather than read between the lines and make comparisons, forgetting they were written by several writers - and I know from personal experience how hard it is (practically impossible) to root out all possible contradictions and conflicts).
kuonji
01-17-08, 09:25 AM By the multiple attack RAW he would need to full attack in order to receive this extra attack.

Here's some more RAW support (bolding and italics mine):

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

If the whirling frenzy were meant to give out an extra attack on anything but a full attack action, I think it would have been mentioned in the ability.
Asurya
01-18-08, 03:30 AM so, I think we will all agree that only Rule 0 will do for this problem
(I checked on the site and there is no errata for UA; as for the FAQ/Sage I don't know, but reading these boards tought me that they were self contradictary sometimes, so...)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ananvilhurtz 01-14-08, 08:58 PM	Do you receive whirling frenzy's extra attack at the end of a charge? Or only when full-attacking? Are there any official FAQs or Errata on this?
Asurya 01-15-08, 03:14 AM	I would say it grants you another hit at your highest BAB-2 whenever you want (std atk, charge, full atk) because: SRD on whirling frenzy: While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action. vs. SRD on Haste: When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.) (emphasis mine)
darokinblade 01-15-08, 09:28 AM	SRD on whirling frenzy: While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action. vs. SRD on Haste: When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.) (emphasis mine) This is incorrect. Per the SRD: Multiple Attacks A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack.
Selgard 01-15-08, 10:04 AM	I think I would vote that he gets an extra attack even when not making a full attack. Abilities modify the base text of the SRD/PHB. Normally- full attack required. This special ability has no such restriction while the Haste spell clearly wants the base rule applied. Just my $.02
darokinblade 01-15-08, 10:49 AM	I think I would vote that he gets an extra attack even when not making a full attack. Abilities modify the base text of the SRD/PHB. Normally- full attack required. This special ability has no such restriction while the Haste spell clearly wants the base rule applied. Just my $.02 While as a DM, you totally have the ability to make that distinction, I cannot agree. It has been said many times that unless an ability/feat specifically states it overrides a rule, the rule still applies. Now, if the whirling frenzy ability had "This ability allows more than one attack as a standard action." at the end of it, I would agree completely. If every ability had to state that rules that normally should apply, do apply, then the books would be significantly longer and confusing.
Selgard 01-15-08, 11:22 AM	Why does haste add the language then? Surely not to waste ink. Haste is even In the book as the primary rule. I agree with Asurya. The text says one extra attack in a round. Not one extra attack with a full round of attacks. Similiar abilities (such as Haste, as was noted in earlier posts) explain that their abilities only work with the full attack action. There is no such limitation in "Whirling Frenzy".
darokinblade 01-15-08, 12:23 PM	From SRD on Manyshot: Benefit As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special). A similar ability, which does allow you to make multiple attacks as a standard action, Manyshot, SPECIFICALLY says that it overrides the rules. Since this ability lacks a specific description as to whether the rule should apply or not, it should apply.
Asurya 01-16-08, 10:14 AM	darokinblade, something tells me that you will not agree with us, no matter what, but bear with me: I took the example of Haste because I knew it gave an extra atk and because it thematically fits the descrition of Whirling Frenzy... but in the case of haste a special line is added to say when you can use your extra atk OTOH, ManyShot and ToB::Wolf fang strike do say as a std action that you seem to wait for. as for the SRD quote on multiple atks, both MHb::DoubleHit and CAdv::DualStrike lets you atk multiple time in something which is not a full-atk (std action and AoO respectively) conclusion? RAW can be confusing for a number of reason, one of which is the apparent contradictary in choice of word and sentence. Moreover, as on the 'house rules' part of the forum I felt free to give MY ruling of the matter if I were the OP's DM. Sorry if I didn't made myself clear enough before. (in fact if the rules were not confusing, the OP wouldn't have brought up the question in the first place)
nonsi 01-17-08, 08:02 AM	darokinblade, something tells me that you will not agree with us, no matter what, but bear with me: I took the example of Haste because I knew it gave an extra atk and because it thematically fits the descrition of Whirling Frenzy... but in the case of haste a special line is added to say when you can use your extra atk OTOH, ManyShot and ToB::Wolf fang strike do say as a std action that you seem to wait for. as for the SRD quote on multiple atks, both MHb::DoubleHit and CAdv::DualStrike lets you atk multiple time in something which is not a full-atk (std action and AoO respectively) conclusion? RAW can be confusing for a number of reason, one of which is the apparent contradictary in choice of word and sentence. Moreover, as on the 'house rules' part of the forum I felt free to give MY ruling of the matter if I were the OP's DM. Sorry if I didn't made myself clear enough before. (in fact if the rules were not confusing, the OP wouldn't have brought up the question in the first place) That's quite true. Most people tend to view the RAW as a holy text rather than read between the lines and make comparisons, forgetting they were written by several writers - and I know from personal experience how hard it is (practically impossible) to root out all possible contradictions and conflicts).
kuonji 01-17-08, 09:25 AM	By the multiple attack RAW he would need to full attack in order to receive this extra attack. Here's some more RAW support (bolding and italics mine): Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. If the whirling frenzy were meant to give out an extra attack on anything but a full attack action, I think it would have been mentioned in the ability.
Asurya 01-18-08, 03:30 AM	so, I think we will all agree that only Rule 0 will do for this problem (I checked on the site and there is no errata for UA; as for the FAQ/Sage I don't know, but reading these boards tought me that they were self contradictary sometimes, so...)