Who is using Spell Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Who is using Spell Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
uffinf@mindspring.com
09-14-04, 11:44 PM We've started a new campaign using spells points for all classes. The wizard has decided he is so unhappy with the spell point system he wants to make a new character. When deciding to use spell points I beleived this system would benefit casters, but upon seeing it in use the scaling of die damage is causing the wizard to burn up his points much faster than he would spell slots to get the same results, for example he has pointed out that since he has to spend 3 points to cast a 2d4+2 magic missle he actually has fewer spells availible with the system, since casting this first level spell costs as much as a second level spell. So does the versility really make up for the loss of the number of spells that maybe cast?
I am looking for responses for people who have acutally seen the spell point system from UA used "as is" in a campaign starting at 1st level and progressing from there.
ShinRyuu
09-15-04, 12:48 AM That damage scaling is the most broken thing I've seen in much time. It makes sense with psionic powers because they are already balanced with augmenting in mind, but not spells. Try playing with that out.
Jack Daniel
09-15-04, 11:29 AM I use spell points, but I give mages & priests the same SP progression as the psion's PP. That seems to even things up.
cambric
09-15-04, 12:00 PM I use spell points too...but not at the way the book says it. I agree with your wizard, he's getting shafted. I use the spell points with the casters getting what the level of spell usually is.

For instance: an 8th level wizard casts fireball, he gets the 8d6 dice, but he doesn't have to use more spell points to get it.

Now, sometimes the casters are powerful...but hey, so are my NPC's! :schemes:

I want the players to have "fun" and to enjoy their character...so if it means they are more powerful than normal, so be it.

I would recommend you let them use the spell points and let them have the same spells, without having to burn spell points.

Cam
uffinf@mindspring.com
09-15-04, 12:49 PM Thanks to everyone who has replied, it is unusual to see everyone in agreement. I will not be using the scaling rules from now on, unless I get the Expanded Psionics book, then I'll take a look at maybe changing the spell points alloted.
m00
09-15-04, 05:28 PM Not to be an intentionally obtuse devil's advocate, but in my opinion, the way damage scales in UA spell points is pretty much the only way to do it without massively favoring the lower level spells. If all damage spells do straight 1d6 per caster level (disregarding caps for now), then lower level spells do more damage per spell point spent, which doesn't make sense. 5 spell points for a 10d6 fireball and 9 points for a 10d6 cone of cold? 1 spell point for 5d4+5 damage to a single target, no save, no to-hit force effect, compared to 15 points for 15d6 to a single target, no save, with a ranged touch attack and an elemental type? Polar ray costs 15 times as much as magic missile but only does 3 times as much damage, can miss, and is subject to resist energy? The only advantages higher level spells would have is a slight increase in save DC and a higher damage cap; these are, in my opinion anyway, insufficient to justify higher level spells.

While this does ultimately hose damage spells some, I believe the versatility and power of spell point spellcasters more than justifies a slight weakening in damage potential. Direct damage spells have always been kinda weak compared to their crowd control or save-or-die counterparts anyways. From personal experience (been running a spell point campaign for the last 5 months), I don't think disregarding damage scaling is necessary to retain the power of spellcasters.

A wizard, of all the classes, has the least to complain about if you're using UA spellpoints verbatim anyways. No more memorizing spells; he's basically a sorceror who gets to re-do his known spells every morning. Now, if he were a sorceror, I would understand a little resentment. If he's playing his wizard like a non-spell point sorceror though, and just going around fireballing everything, he's going to be weak compared to a well played wizard regardless of slots or spell points.
cambric
09-15-04, 05:52 PM We haven't gotten to the higher levels, I told them that I'll adjust as necessary. It was for something different and I'm for trying new things out. You're correct, it will make a difference at higher levels.

As for the Sorcerer...if we ever have one, I have it worked out where they get more spell points (UA does say that anyhow), an additional feat, and something else. I didn't want to "hose" the Sorcerer, but since we never have one, I didn't worry too much about it.

Cam
uffinf@mindspring.com
09-15-04, 11:10 PM m00, good points indeed I felt the same way about damage scaling when I began using spell points, mathmaticly scaling damage is the only way to address the damage potential of lower level spells vs. higher level ones. But at the same time when a good player comes to me and tells me he doesn't like a character only because of the way a house rule applies to his class I am forced to reconsider if it is worth it to have the rule at all. And another of your points, A wizard, of all the classes, has the least to complain about if you're using UA spellpoints verbatim anyways. No more memorizing spells; he's basically a sorceror who gets to re-do his known spells every morning. Now, if he were a sorceror, I would understand a little resentment. If he's playing his wizard like a non-spell point sorceror though, and just going around fireballing everything, he's going to be weak compared to a well played wizard regardless of slots or spell points. I reacted the same way basically telling the player to try to get a better grasp of how to use the spell points to their full potential, and he tried for a couple of sessions, as I said before this is a good player, anyway he is still unhappy.

Jack Daniel saysI use spell points, but I give mages & priests the same SP progression as the psion's PP. That seems to even things up. I don't have the Psion rules but I think it is in the SRD, I'll take a look, but as ShinRyuu stated the psionic powers were balanced with augmenting in mind, so I'm not sure more spell points is the answer.
m00
09-16-04, 01:45 AM But at the same time when a good player comes to me and tells me he doesn't like a character only because of the way a house rule applies to his class I am forced to reconsider if it is worth it to have the rule at all.
There should be more DMs in the world who make decisions on house rules like this. Starting with mine.

Jack Daniel says

I use spell points, but I give mages & priests the same SP progression as the psion's PP. That seems to even things up.
I don't have the Psion rules but I think it is in the SRD, I'll take a look, but as ShinRyuu stated the psionic powers were balanced with augmenting in mind, so I'm not sure more spell points is the answer.
It may not be THE answer, but it's probably the best one that doesn't involve rebuilding the entire arcane and divine spell-list from ground up using the XPH as a model (something I'm currently trying, lots of work). Also, if you're using the base power points of the psion from the XPH, you should use the bonus power points from high ability scores chart as well.

Check out this link for some more discussion on spell points: Vance vs The World (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302987)
uffin
09-16-04, 09:54 PM Thanks m00, "Vance vs. The World" was extremely helpful. Might have found that myself if the Search were working.
keyunp
09-17-04, 07:26 PM When I've used Spell Points (between campaigns and optional rules) I've used the values from the 2e skills and powers: magic (don't remember exact name)
0 level - 1 point
1 st - 4 points
2nd - 6 points
3rd - 10 points
4th - 15 points
5th - 24 points (not posiavtive on this value)
6th - 30 points
7th - 40 points
8th -50 points
9th - 60 points

I then did straight conversion from the wizards # spells per day and added up totals. You can either use the spell points to cast the spells like a scorcerer, or use the spell points to pick your spells in the morning.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uffinf@mindspring.com 09-14-04, 11:44 PM	We've started a new campaign using spells points for all classes. The wizard has decided he is so unhappy with the spell point system he wants to make a new character. When deciding to use spell points I beleived this system would benefit casters, but upon seeing it in use the scaling of die damage is causing the wizard to burn up his points much faster than he would spell slots to get the same results, for example he has pointed out that since he has to spend 3 points to cast a 2d4+2 magic missle he actually has fewer spells availible with the system, since casting this first level spell costs as much as a second level spell. So does the versility really make up for the loss of the number of spells that maybe cast? I am looking for responses for people who have acutally seen the spell point system from UA used "as is" in a campaign starting at 1st level and progressing from there.
ShinRyuu 09-15-04, 12:48 AM	That damage scaling is the most broken thing I've seen in much time. It makes sense with psionic powers because they are already balanced with augmenting in mind, but not spells. Try playing with that out.
Jack Daniel 09-15-04, 11:29 AM	I use spell points, but I give mages & priests the same SP progression as the psion's PP. That seems to even things up.
cambric 09-15-04, 12:00 PM	I use spell points too...but not at the way the book says it. I agree with your wizard, he's getting shafted. I use the spell points with the casters getting what the level of spell usually is. For instance: an 8th level wizard casts fireball, he gets the 8d6 dice, but he doesn't have to use more spell points to get it. Now, sometimes the casters are powerful...but hey, so are my NPC's! :schemes: I want the players to have "fun" and to enjoy their character...so if it means they are more powerful than normal, so be it. I would recommend you let them use the spell points and let them have the same spells, without having to burn spell points. Cam
uffinf@mindspring.com 09-15-04, 12:49 PM	Thanks to everyone who has replied, it is unusual to see everyone in agreement. I will not be using the scaling rules from now on, unless I get the Expanded Psionics book, then I'll take a look at maybe changing the spell points alloted.
m00 09-15-04, 05:28 PM	Not to be an intentionally obtuse devil's advocate, but in my opinion, the way damage scales in UA spell points is pretty much the only way to do it without massively favoring the lower level spells. If all damage spells do straight 1d6 per caster level (disregarding caps for now), then lower level spells do more damage per spell point spent, which doesn't make sense. 5 spell points for a 10d6 fireball and 9 points for a 10d6 cone of cold? 1 spell point for 5d4+5 damage to a single target, no save, no to-hit force effect, compared to 15 points for 15d6 to a single target, no save, with a ranged touch attack and an elemental type? Polar ray costs 15 times as much as magic missile but only does 3 times as much damage, can miss, and is subject to resist energy? The only advantages higher level spells would have is a slight increase in save DC and a higher damage cap; these are, in my opinion anyway, insufficient to justify higher level spells. While this does ultimately hose damage spells some, I believe the versatility and power of spell point spellcasters more than justifies a slight weakening in damage potential. Direct damage spells have always been kinda weak compared to their crowd control or save-or-die counterparts anyways. From personal experience (been running a spell point campaign for the last 5 months), I don't think disregarding damage scaling is necessary to retain the power of spellcasters. A wizard, of all the classes, has the least to complain about if you're using UA spellpoints verbatim anyways. No more memorizing spells; he's basically a sorceror who gets to re-do his known spells every morning. Now, if he were a sorceror, I would understand a little resentment. If he's playing his wizard like a non-spell point sorceror though, and just going around fireballing everything, he's going to be weak compared to a well played wizard regardless of slots or spell points.
cambric 09-15-04, 05:52 PM	We haven't gotten to the higher levels, I told them that I'll adjust as necessary. It was for something different and I'm for trying new things out. You're correct, it will make a difference at higher levels. As for the Sorcerer...if we ever have one, I have it worked out where they get more spell points (UA does say that anyhow), an additional feat, and something else. I didn't want to "hose" the Sorcerer, but since we never have one, I didn't worry too much about it. Cam
uffinf@mindspring.com 09-15-04, 11:10 PM	m00, good points indeed I felt the same way about damage scaling when I began using spell points, mathmaticly scaling damage is the only way to address the damage potential of lower level spells vs. higher level ones. But at the same time when a good player comes to me and tells me he doesn't like a character only because of the way a house rule applies to his class I am forced to reconsider if it is worth it to have the rule at all. And another of your points, A wizard, of all the classes, has the least to complain about if you're using UA spellpoints verbatim anyways. No more memorizing spells; he's basically a sorceror who gets to re-do his known spells every morning. Now, if he were a sorceror, I would understand a little resentment. If he's playing his wizard like a non-spell point sorceror though, and just going around fireballing everything, he's going to be weak compared to a well played wizard regardless of slots or spell points. I reacted the same way basically telling the player to try to get a better grasp of how to use the spell points to their full potential, and he tried for a couple of sessions, as I said before this is a good player, anyway he is still unhappy. Jack Daniel saysI use spell points, but I give mages & priests the same SP progression as the psion's PP. That seems to even things up. I don't have the Psion rules but I think it is in the SRD, I'll take a look, but as ShinRyuu stated the psionic powers were balanced with augmenting in mind, so I'm not sure more spell points is the answer.
m00 09-16-04, 01:45 AM	But at the same time when a good player comes to me and tells me he doesn't like a character only because of the way a house rule applies to his class I am forced to reconsider if it is worth it to have the rule at all. There should be more DMs in the world who make decisions on house rules like this. Starting with mine. Jack Daniel says I use spell points, but I give mages & priests the same SP progression as the psion's PP. That seems to even things up. I don't have the Psion rules but I think it is in the SRD, I'll take a look, but as ShinRyuu stated the psionic powers were balanced with augmenting in mind, so I'm not sure more spell points is the answer. It may not be THE answer, but it's probably the best one that doesn't involve rebuilding the entire arcane and divine spell-list from ground up using the XPH as a model (something I'm currently trying, lots of work). Also, if you're using the base power points of the psion from the XPH, you should use the bonus power points from high ability scores chart as well. Check out this link for some more discussion on spell points: Vance vs The World (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302987)
uffin 09-16-04, 09:54 PM	Thanks m00, "Vance vs. The World" was extremely helpful. Might have found that myself if the Search were working.
keyunp 09-17-04, 07:26 PM	When I've used Spell Points (between campaigns and optional rules) I've used the values from the 2e skills and powers: magic (don't remember exact name) 0 level - 1 point 1 st - 4 points 2nd - 6 points 3rd - 10 points 4th - 15 points 5th - 24 points (not posiavtive on this value) 6th - 30 points 7th - 40 points 8th -50 points 9th - 60 points I then did straight conversion from the wizards # spells per day and added up totals. You can either use the spell points to cast the spells like a scorcerer, or use the spell points to pick your spells in the morning.