Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Astin_Dextor 07-19-04, 02:39 PM	One of my favourite things in Unearthed Arcana were the generic classes, but I was wondering: why would anyone ever bother playing an Arcane Spellcaster. Since you get all the spells anyway, why not just be a Divine caster, pick Heavy Armor Proficiency and walk around in Adamantine Full Plate? I really think they should have made the Arcane Spell Failure translate into just Spell Failure in this variant, or indeed eliminated Divine magic altogether.
Murmos 07-19-04, 10:55 PM	Uh . . . if I'm not mistaken, the description says the spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. Therefore, all the spells, whether they are originally arcane or divine, should get the spell failure chance. That's how I'd rule it, at least . . .
trapspringer 07-20-04, 09:31 AM	Ditto.
castlemike 07-20-04, 06:55 PM	But it's only a step to make a Battle Spell Caster vice a Battle Sorcerer.
Astin_Dextor 07-22-04, 12:23 PM	When it refers to casting as a Sorcerer, it simply means that the spellcaster is a spontaneous caster. The chance of Spell Failure is Arcane only.
Ertai Planeswalker 07-22-04, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by Astin_Dextor When it refers to casting as a Sorcerer, it simply means that the spellcaster is a spontaneous caster. The chance of Spell Failure is Arcane only. Last time i checked a sorcerer casts arcane spells. So casting as a sorcerer means you cast arcane spells.
lordyuri24 07-22-04, 09:27 PM	Originally posted by Ertai Planeswalker Last time i checked a sorcerer casts arcane spells. So casting as a sorcerer means you cast arcane spells. No, he means that if you choose to make a Spontanious Caster it is treated like a Sorcerer, with all the arcane benefits/negatives. As for why make a Arcane caster? Do you need to pray to a deity if you arcane? If you are a Wizard there is no major being that can snip your power (unless you are in FR), just as a RP tact. As well, many really good PrCs (Archmage) have Arcane casting as a prerequisite, which the Divine caster cannot fill.
Tahliat 07-24-04, 04:11 PM	If you are an arcane spellcaster you have access to sorcerer/wizard spells whereas if you are divine you have access to the cleric spell list. They both operate under the rules of sorcerers but have different spell lists. Finally if you are a divine spellcaster you are not affected by ARCANE spell failure.
Kintara 07-24-04, 06:35 PM	Originally posted by Tahliat If you are an arcane spellcaster you have access to sorcerer/wizard spells whereas if you are divine you have access to the cleric spell list. They both operate under the rules of sorcerers but have different spell lists. Finally if you are a divine spellcaster you are not affected by ARCANE spell failure. Read the class again, because you are wrong about the spell lists. I would rule one of two ways, either both types of caster suffer arcane spell failure, or neither do. That's the only way that seems balanced to me. And that still doesn't seem quite fair for someone who chooses Charisma as the key ability score. Of course, that's not a surprise.
DM Zoc 07-25-04, 04:24 AM	Divine gets to wear armor, but Arcane doesn't have to worry about divine-intervention.
Drizzt Clone 07-25-04, 12:59 PM	So you can take summon familiar :P
caeruleus 07-25-04, 03:17 PM	Nowhere in the description of the spellcaster does it say anything about spell failure for wearing armor. I think the only difference is that divine spellcasters could gain the ability to turn undead, and arcane spellcasters could gain the ability to summon a familiar. Personally, though, I'd scrap the arcane/divine distinction if the spellcaster is being used.
ZeroFactor 11-08-04, 11:25 AM	Has anyone found any type of official answer for this? We just started a game using the generic classes and I found this same problem. With one level of Warrior (PC Class), any Divine Spellcaster is way tougher than any Arcane Spellcaster. (The Divine Spellcaster can lob fireballs while in full plate while the Arcane Spellcaster has to keep looking for a better set of Bracers of Armor.) For reference, the rules for arcane spell failure chance are with the Armor section, not with the Sorcerer class description.
Mac Awol 11-09-04, 12:23 AM	I came up with a simple solution for the fact that a divine spellcaster seems stronger than a arcane spellcaster: 1. The spell-lists was changed to only druid and cleric for divine and sorcerer and druid for arcane. 2. Added the class ability feat armored spellcasting, which allows a arcane spellcaster to ignore spell failure from light armor, as a bard. 3. Added the class ability feat Domain, which adds Domain spells to the casters list of known spells and grants use of the domain power. This created enough difference between an arcane and divine spellcaster, to make the arcane spellcaster a strong choice, while not undermining the divine spellcaster. Simple, and it works...
Knucklehead 11-21-04, 03:21 PM	Why do people think that the spellcaster generic class doesn't have arcane spell failure? They have no armor proficiency, they cast spells as a sorcerer, and there is no mention of being able to cast with armor. On pg. 77 under the spellcasting description of the class it says: A spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. The distinction of Divine and Arcane are for the ability scores that represent your magical prowess and a distinction for future PrC's. The designation does not determine which spell list you choose, nor does it correlate to the spellcaster worshipping a god. On pg. 77 under the spellcasting description of the class it says: She may select her spells known from the cleric, druid and sorcerer/wizard spell lists.
caeruleus 11-22-04, 02:08 PM	Why do people think that the spellcaster generic class doesn't have arcane spell failure? They have no armor proficiency, they cast spells as a sorcerer, and there is no mention of being able to cast with armor. Here's how I reason that they don't have ASF. It states that ASF applies to sorcerers and wizards in the class description (under weapon and armor proficiencies). It says that ASF applies to bards wearing armor other than light armor in the class description. But nowhere in the spellcaster's class description does it say anything about ASF. Likewise, it says nothing about restrictions based on following a god (as it does for the cleric). In the end, of course, everything in UA is optional. You can pick and choose what you'll use. You can also use what's in there for ideas to develop your own variants. (That goes for anything in any book for that matter.) Does it work for the campaign you have in mind? Does it help set the flavor? That should be the main concern rather than what the rules "really" say.
Knucklehead 11-22-04, 02:43 PM	But nowhere in the spellcaster's class description does it say anything about ASF. Likewise, it says nothing about restrictions based on following a god (as it does for the cleric). It doesn't have too, it already covers that point by the first line in the spellcasting text (see above post). That's like saying the spellcaster casts like a sorcerer and then using up two pages to write down everything about the sorcerer. I'll concede that everything falls on rule 0, but the text clearly covers all loopholes by declaring the spellcaster as a sorcerer for dealing with spells. Since the spellcaster casts like a sorcerer, he has ASF. As a DM I would rule that spellcasters do suffer ASF. While I think all spellcasters should have the ability to wear light armor ASF-free, the rules as written don't allow it. And while saying that, most of my PC's take the chance of 10% ACF in leather because of flavor (and because my DM and I always forget to factor it in :D). Thanks for standing your ground. While I still think you are wrong, I think we agree on the most important part of the game, making it fun.
Mywurld 11-22-04, 03:25 PM	I have a solution to all your problems related to ASF. Just take a level of Spellsword from Complete Warrior. You still get to increase your caster level and you ignore 10% of your ASF, in addition to this you get a better BaB increase. If you need to remove more then 10% just keep leveling up in SS every other level increases the amount of ASF you can ignore by 5% to a max of 30% and your caster level increases as well. By the time your done you'll be a full plate tank that can swing a sword after your spells for the day are gone.
caeruleus 11-24-04, 01:58 AM	It doesn't have too, it already covers that point by the first line in the spellcasting text (see above post). That's like saying the spellcaster casts like a sorcerer and then using up two pages to write down everything about the sorcerer. I'll concede that everything falls on rule 0, but the text clearly covers all loopholes by declaring the spellcaster as a sorcerer for dealing with spells. Since the spellcaster casts like a sorcerer, he has ASF. But if you look, for example, at the hexblade (from Complete Warrior), under "spells" it says they cast as sorcerers. But under "armor and weapon proficiencies" it says they do not suffer ASF in light armor. That's why I look at the armor section rather than the spell section. Thanks for standing your ground. While I still think you are wrong, I think we agree on the most important part of the game, making it fun. Ditto :)
IceFractal 11-24-04, 02:00 PM	The way I'd do it is to just have 1 spellcaster, not arcane and divine. They get access to all lists and can cast in light armor with spell failure but not in other armors. Then have a feat that allows spellcasting in all armor but make it require enough Warrior levels to take that the spellcasting of the character who takes it is weakened. Then you can have your lightly armored spellcaster with full spells, or your heavy spellcasting tank with reduced spells.
Knucklehead 11-24-04, 08:07 PM	But if you look, for example, at the hexblade (from Complete Warrior), under "spells" it says they cast as sorcerers. But under "armor and weapon proficiencies" it says they do not suffer ASF in light armor. That's why I look at the armor section rather than the spell section. Under armor and weapons for a Hexblade it says they are proficient in light armor and that there spells have "simple somatic components." I agree that it specifically says they do not suffer ASF in light armor. So using your example, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Spellcaster would have something in the Weapon and Armor description that states he can cast in armor? And have proficiency is such armor? With the Hexblade and again with the Bard, it gives an explanation of why they get to cast with light armor and they both get proficiency with that armor. The Spellcaster does not have proficiency with any armor and it doesn't say they do not suffer from ASF (sounds like a disease :D). In addition under the Spells portion of the text it does not say they cast as a sorcerer. To quote:He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, just as a sorcerer can. This is not the same thing as "learn and cast spells as a sorcerer." It only highlights they don't need to prepare their spells like a wizard or cleric must.
caeruleus 11-25-04, 12:44 AM	So using your example, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Spellcaster would have something in the Weapon and Armor description that states he can cast in armor? If that were the case, I'd also expect to see a comment in the weapon and armor section of the cleric, yet there is no mention of that. Of course, you could reply that there is no need to say anything about arcane spell failure for a divine caster. But then, I'm not arguing that spellcasters are in fact not subject to ASF. The more I think about it, the more I think the case can be made either way (and you do a good job with your view). But I am arguing that it is a reasonable interpretation that they are not subject to ASF. The fact that it says nothing leaves it an open question, and since "arcane" and "divine" spellcasters are essentially the same, it would be silly to subject one to ASF and not the other.
Knucklehead 11-25-04, 07:14 PM	There is no need to have any description for a Cleric because they are proficient in all armor (and shields). The only reason they have an explanation for the other classes is because there is a looming question, "What if I take armor proficiency?" I would bet that if a Hexblade was proficient in all armor there would not be any mention of ASF. Since the Hexblade and Bard are only proficient in Light armor, the description has to give an explanation for this proficiency and detail what happens if they go beyond. The same holds true for the Wiz/Sor class. They are not allowed any armor, so the question becomes what if they take an armor proficiency feat? Take the Druid as another example. They are divine caster's but are not proficient with all armor. However it states in the description that "they learn and cast spells the way a cleric does." This statement answers the "What if I take Heavy Armor Proficiency" question for a druid. Since a cleric can casts spells in all armor catagories, so too can a druid (provided it isn't metal). By using the text as written in UA the only difference between Arcane and Divine is the spellcasting ability score and related magical items usage. The selection gives the character the abilty to choose Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma as their spellcasting score, and designates the magical items they can use. If someone were to choose "divine" they would use wisdom for their spellcasting and have magical item limits due to the "divine" classification. Divine Spellcaster's would still have ASF because they still learn and cast spells as a sorcerer. Instead of an Arcane Sorcerer you would be a Divine Sorcerer, but in the end you still cast as a sorcerer. The term Arcane Spell Failure is a misnomer. The spell failure chance is not caused by an Arcane spell, but by the somatic component. A wizard or sorcerer could cast Still Fireballs all day in full plate. That being said, the term Arcane refers to spells associated with wizards, sorcerers, and bards while divine refers to spells associated with clerics and druids (PHB, 177,179). If one were to have ASF only effect Arcane Spellcasters without affecting the Divine Spellcaster then you must also separate all aspects of the Spellcaster class. Since the description of the Spellcaster pools all the spell lists together and says the Arcane/Divine classification has no bearing on the spells learned, you cannot pardon a Spellcaster of ASF simply because he chooses the Divine label. I think people are adding things to the Spellcaster class that aren't there. The only thing the Arcane/Divine label does is choose the ability score used for casting and identify what magical items you can use. It has no effect on the spellcasting portion of the class. Sorry for the long post, I'm sure I could have found a shorter way to say all that :D.
DM Zoc 11-25-04, 08:17 PM	Are you certain that choosing arcane or divine will lock in you spell-casting ability modifier? I was under the impression that either orientation could have any of the three as the linked ability. I was also under the impression that divine spells never suffered Arcane Spell Failure, while arcane spells always did (unless otherwise specified).
Knucklehead 11-25-04, 08:36 PM	Are you certain that choosing arcane or divine will lock in you spell-casting ability modifier? I was under the impression that either orientation could have any of the three as the linked ability. How about I give you the quote and you make your own conclusion? From UA, pg. 77 under spellcasting: A Spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. She may select her spells known from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. A spellcaster must choose as 1st level whether to be an arcane spellcaster or a divine spellcaster. This choice has no impact on the spells that she may learn, but affects what kinds of scrolls she can use and which ability score controls her spellcasting. An arcane spellcaster may designate either Intelligence or Charisma as the ability score that determines the highest-level spell she can learn or cast, and the difficulty class of her spell's saving throws. A divine spellcaster must use Wisdom to determine the highest-level spell she can learn or cast, and the difficulty class of her spell's saving throws. I was also under the impression that divine spells never suffered Arcane Spell Failure, while arcane spells always did (unless otherwise specified). I would agree, but it is my impression that the designation of Divine in the case of the Spellcaster does not give you ASF immunity. As stated above the Divine label gives you Wisdom as your ability score and tells you what magical items you are able to obtain. IMHO the intent of the Spellcaster is to remove the cleric and wizard class and merge them into one class. It would have been better if they were more specific in the description, but based off what they have written, there is enough information to deduce ASF exists for both Spellcaster versions.
DM Zoc 11-25-04, 10:12 PM	Ah, thank you. As is so often the case, I was reciting from memory because I did not have the text on hand. Having re-read this here, I must agree with you on both counts.
Elzaban the Ethereal 11-26-04, 04:57 AM	I'm rather curious as to how it can be reached that Divine Spellcasters, who are not casting Arcane spells, are subject to Arcane Spell Failure. What ASF applies to is pretty well spelled out in the PHB section on Armor, and in the SRD: Arcane Spell Failure: Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they’re wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells.Note that it says that the only people affected by it are Arcane spellcasters, who cast Arcane spells, in armor, with Somatic components. Casting "like a sorceror" has nothing to do with ASF: only the designation of whether you cast Divine spells or Arcane spells does. If your casting Arcane spells (by being an Arcane Spellcaster), then you'll suffer ASF. If you aren't casting Arcane spells, because your a Divine Spellcaster, then you're not going to suffer ASF. Why? Because your spells aren't Arcane, and ASF only affects Arcane spells. For an example of why the armor listed in the proficiencies section of a class doesn't determine whether or not they suffer ASF (unless specifically stated (ie. Bard, Hexblade, Battle Sorceror)), let's look at some other non-Arcane spellcasters. Take the Oriental Adventures' Shugenja. They are Divine spellcasters, and they have no armor proficiency; however, they do not suffer ASF. This is because they cast Divine spells, regardless of the type of armor that they are initially proficient with. For another example of this, look at the Psion. No armor proficiency to be seen, but that doesn't stop them from having their spells affected by any armor that they do wear. They manifest Psionic powers, as apposed to casting Arcane spells. This, like the casting of Divine spells, excuses them from having to suffer ASF. This can also be seen in the Psychic Warrior, who is proficient with all armor, but still doesn't suffer ASF because he does not cast Arcane. To conclude, in regards to the Generic Spellcaster class, there's no mention of the Divine Spellcaster being affected by ASF (and no, casting "like a sorceror" doesn't count, because that does not involve ASF; the designation of Arcane or Divine does.). Other situations involving Divine Spellcasters and their lack of Armor Proficiency have continued to show that ASF is not suffered by these classes, due to the fact that they do not cast as an Arcane spellcaster. In addition, the description of ASF in the section of the PHB/SRD on armor states that it is only suffered by Arcane Spellcasters, who are casting Arcane spells with Somatic components, in armor. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that Divine Generic Spellcasters do not suffer ASF, but Arcane Generic Spellcasters do suffer from it. As to why anyone would want to play Arcane, again, it might have to do with getting into Prestige Classes, wanting a specific Spellcasting Ability, or making use of certain magic items. Regardless, in making that choice they have decided to take on ASF if they cast in Armor. On the other hand, if they had decided to cast Divine, they would have had to go out of their way to get those Armor proficiencies, which may balance out the disparity between the two designations.
DM Zoc 11-26-04, 12:21 PM	I said it four months ago, and I'll say it again: Divine casters can wear armor, but arcane casters don't have to bow down to a power/force/ideal.
Knucklehead 11-26-04, 12:56 PM	I agree that armor proficiency is not the golden rule. I conceed that your logic makes sense. But I would never allow a PC to cast Wiz/Sor spells without ASF just because they choose the Divine caster label. The original intent of the D&D designer was to make it difficult for wizards and sorcerers to cast in armor. Using your logic (which is reasonable) you simple squish the wizard/sorcerer and make a super cleric. How can this make sense? PrC's, divine intervention, blah. There is no balance. Take what the text says as written. The divine/arcane designation affects ability scores and magic items. If you insist on separating ASF, then separate the spell list too. It's only fair. If you want to make a divine Spellcaster, you get cleric/druid spells, WIS mod's, and no ASF. If you make it arcane you get wiz/sor, INT of CHA, and ASF. If you pool the spells you pool the ASF.
Elrond's Dad 11-29-04, 10:40 AM	It's to distinguish what PrCs you qualify for.
Braids 11-29-04, 02:11 PM	Why do people think that the spellcaster generic class doesn't have arcane spell failure? They have no armor proficiency, they cast spells as a sorcerer, and there is no mention of being able to cast with armor. Nowhere in the description of how a Sorcerer casts spells does it say that they suffer ASF...in fact, the closest thing would be the Weapon and Armor Proficiency
sgingell 12-05-04, 12:37 PM	Divine gets to wear armor, but Arcane doesn't have to worry about divine-intervention.30th level Arcane casters don't have to worry about divine-intervention, power levels you're likely to play do. Thor: You there! Do as I say! Wizard: Ha! Make me punk, I get my spells from the uncaring cosmos, you can't take them away! (Thor smites Wizard with Hammer) Wizard: Oh. Yeah, there's that too. (Wizard dies) If you didn't mean 'divine intervention' in the form of 'consequences of drawing the personal attention of a god', I can only assume you meant the alignment/conduct restrictions that go along with a faith. These aren't meaningful power restrictions either, there are (in most settings) Gods for every alignment. Pick a character concept, then go 'God shopping' for whatever religion will allow you to play it. You can't go chopping up infants and still get spells from Pelor, but if murdering infants is your kind of thing then you just worship Erythnul from the get go and never face any substantive restrictions. Getting full plate in exchange for having to say "My CG behavior is dictated by my CG faith" rather than "My CG behavior is dictated by my CG personality" isn't balance. Getting full plate in exchange for having to say "A God could really mess me up if He wanted to!" isn't balance either. In both cases you're getting a huge AC boost for next to nothing. -Stephen
castlemike 12-05-04, 09:40 PM	Lots of interesting posts. IMO UA and the PHB appear to lean towards implying that ALL "UA Spellcasters" suffer from "arcane spell failure". Neither arcane or divine casters receive armor proficiency with any type of armor or shield and each only receive a single simple weapon proficiency. (Even the Expanded Psionics Handbook which said Psions do not receive those same proficiencies stated that the class was unaffected by wearing armor or using shields a note spellcasters did not receive in UA). Consider all the spellcasting penalties applied to a Sorcerer turned Battle Sorcerer in UA to pick up 1D8 HD and spell casting in light armor and it would seem fairest to apply the same to a Spellcaster turned Battle Spellcaster. UA: A spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. (While can choose spells from all spellcaster lists) (Casting as a sorcerer also implies spell components for arcane and divine spell casters on spells mutally listed arcane/divine) PHB SORCERER the last sentence under Weapon and Armor Proficiency page 77: Armor of any type interferes with a socerer's arcane gestures (read UA Spellcaster), which can cause his spell with somatic components to fail (UA Spellcasters cast spells as sorcerers). In the end the end you can go either way in your campaign but why would anyone play a sorcerer with arcane spell failure when they could pick up all the spellcaster class bennies. The notably better spell choice selection and feats is already pretty sweet and cheap for simply forfeiting simple weapon proficiency with a slightly lower daily spellcasting progression. Really cheap IMO with No ASF. Just a few thoughts.
Thapthim 12-22-04, 11:10 AM	I think they say they cast spells like a Sorc, it has to do with how the spontanous casting and such works. ASF only applies to Arcane Spells unless the class description says otherwise, if they wanted it to apply to non-arcane spellcasting it would have been called Spell Failer and then in some classes they would say 'Can Cast with armour'. For a divine spellcaster all they have to do is get in the right position (ie hands together in a prayer, or holding thier holy symbol) and the gods, faith or nature takes care of the rest. People who cast arcane spells, it is more a science of weaving the arcane forces etc, that requires more of a dance of arms then just a release of faith or natural forces. Elrond's Dad and Elzaban the Ethereal have the right idea.
Dr. Bob 12-28-04, 08:40 PM	I'm with castlemike and knucklehead. I'm running a campaign with generics and I am ruling that divine spellcasters suffer "ASF" if they use armor. In this variant, "generic divine spellcasting" is IN NO WAY related to the spell mechanics of the "standard" cleric, druid, or paladin. The mechanics of "generic divine spellcasting" is exactly as the standard sorceror with the following exceptions: (1) the generic divine spellcaster can only use divine scrolls (2) the generic divine spellcaster must use WIS to determine DC and highest-level skill that can be cast (3) the generic divine spellcaster can choose the Turn Undead feat, but not the Familiar feat These exceptions supercede the standard sorceror spellcasting mechanics. In all other respects, however, the "generic divine spellcaster" learns and casts spell the same way a "standard sorceror" does - including being at risk of spell failure when casting a spell with somatic components while wearing armor. It's all about balance and flexibility. The generic arcane and generic divine spellcasters have some differences, but they should be balanced. Exempting the generic divine spellcaster from ASF is unbalancing.