Why does everybody have to be Gestalt? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Why does everybody have to be Gestalt? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darien_CR
12-05-05, 07:30 PM In the Gestalt variant of the Unearthed Arcana it says every NPC in your world needs to be a gestalt character. However, I find this very wrong, IMO not even all the PCs should be forced to be gestalt (just like with the dual classes back in AD&D), it's just an option for PCs.

I would like a solution for gestalt characters to be just an option to PCs, and other characters in the world aren't forced to be like that. The only thing I can think of is having a LA for the gestalt characters, +2 seems like an obvious solution, but I think it's not that simple, the higher the level, the higher the LA should be, what do you think of this (or post your own solutions).

Lv.1-4 = LA+1
Lv.5-8 = LA+2
Lv.9-12= LA+3
Lv.13-16 = LA+4
Lv.17-20 = LA+5
Fargren
12-05-05, 07:44 PM Lv.1-4 = LA+1
Lv.5-8 = LA+2
Lv.9-12= LA+3
Lv.13-16 = LA+4
Lv.17-20 = LA+5
Ok, it makes some sense, but if you allow non-gestalt PCs along with gestalt, and ytou use this variant, how do you think the non.gestalt will reach the gestalt? I mena, if their LA indrease, their ECL will raise faster than the other character's, so they wont be able to cacth up. Do you notice this?
Darien_CR
12-05-05, 08:39 PM Well, if all PCs are gestalt then there is no problem here, but on the opposite situation the gestalt characters would need to "buy" the level in which their LA changes by not advancing their next level, and this balances the whole thing.
CravesLove
12-05-05, 09:33 PM Another option is to have gestalt characters pay more per level.

So instead of 2000 exp to advance to the next level, they may pay 3000. This might keep them in balance without trying to figure out all the +LA stuff.

Not sure what multiplier is best, but x1.5 seems a good place to start.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-05-05, 10:01 PM Just have NPCs and players that don't want to play gestalt pick commoner as their second class..
Jerks
12-05-05, 10:22 PM I would go with an experience penalty for gestalt characters. If gestalt'd characters take a 20% to 30% penalty to all experience gained, then that might be enough of an incentive for single-classes characters to exist. I wouldn't go with a 50% penalty because eventhough they are good, gestalts characters aren't exaclty worth 2 characters.
Coren
12-06-05, 12:21 AM I normally just don't allow gestalt characters to take a prestige class.
Ozymandias V.
12-06-05, 05:40 PM Our DM just decided that the PCs and amazing NPCs are gestalt, and everyone else is normal.
simon_tage
12-06-05, 06:02 PM There is no way to balance them. If you penalize the gestalts then it is unfair to them for using a variant rule that was allowed. If you don't penalize them then the non-gestalt PCs are left behind. That is the why and wherefor behind the all or nothing nature of gestalt campaigns.
Jerks
12-06-05, 09:11 PM I don't think it penalizes them. They'll be flat-out more powerful than a single classed PC, but the single classed guys will advance in levels a bit faster than their gestalted guys. In a campaign with a mix of single and gestalted characters, an XP penalty is about the only fair way to do it. A 50% penalty (the highest that should be considered) would put the PC on pace with class abilities as would a character that multi-classed through more standard means. I would recommend a lesser penalty as a gestalt character lags behind standard multiclassing with hit points.
Ertai Planeswalker
12-07-05, 10:07 AM As far as I know, gestalt characters need 50% additional XP to level up. You could create an alternative level table, or just give Gestalt character a 1/3 Xp penalty. The result is the same.

As such, two characters with equal Xp should be about equally powerfull, except at first level, where Gestalts have a slight advantage.
Jerks
12-07-05, 10:47 AM I don't think gestalts have an XP penalty in the RAW of Unearted Arcana. A 50% penalty certainly makes sense if you are going to blend gestalt and non-gestalt characters in the same party. As you said, the single classed guy will be out-shined in the early goings on, but after that his increased ability to level up will allow him to become more on par with the gestalts and maybe even surpass them. Which of course will up encounter levels and XP and bungie the gestalts back toward the high level single class player.

It might be doable, but I'd advise telling the player that doesn't want to gestalt to take the NPC Expert class along with his class. This will have the lowest amount of impact upon his vision of a pure XXX, but give him a bit of flexibility in selecting skills. Because he picked a NPC class, the GM could then give that player a 10% bonus in XP to make up for him being slightly weaker.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darien_CR 12-05-05, 07:30 PM	In the Gestalt variant of the Unearthed Arcana it says every NPC in your world needs to be a gestalt character. However, I find this very wrong, IMO not even all the PCs should be forced to be gestalt (just like with the dual classes back in AD&D), it's just an option for PCs. I would like a solution for gestalt characters to be just an option to PCs, and other characters in the world aren't forced to be like that. The only thing I can think of is having a LA for the gestalt characters, +2 seems like an obvious solution, but I think it's not that simple, the higher the level, the higher the LA should be, what do you think of this (or post your own solutions). Lv.1-4 = LA+1 Lv.5-8 = LA+2 Lv.9-12= LA+3 Lv.13-16 = LA+4 Lv.17-20 = LA+5
Fargren 12-05-05, 07:44 PM	Lv.1-4 = LA+1 Lv.5-8 = LA+2 Lv.9-12= LA+3 Lv.13-16 = LA+4 Lv.17-20 = LA+5 Ok, it makes some sense, but if you allow non-gestalt PCs along with gestalt, and ytou use this variant, how do you think the non.gestalt will reach the gestalt? I mena, if their LA indrease, their ECL will raise faster than the other character's, so they wont be able to cacth up. Do you notice this?
Darien_CR 12-05-05, 08:39 PM	Well, if all PCs are gestalt then there is no problem here, but on the opposite situation the gestalt characters would need to "buy" the level in which their LA changes by not advancing their next level, and this balances the whole thing.
CravesLove 12-05-05, 09:33 PM	Another option is to have gestalt characters pay more per level. So instead of 2000 exp to advance to the next level, they may pay 3000. This might keep them in balance without trying to figure out all the +LA stuff. Not sure what multiplier is best, but x1.5 seems a good place to start.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-05-05, 10:01 PM	Just have NPCs and players that don't want to play gestalt pick commoner as their second class..
Jerks 12-05-05, 10:22 PM	I would go with an experience penalty for gestalt characters. If gestalt'd characters take a 20% to 30% penalty to all experience gained, then that might be enough of an incentive for single-classes characters to exist. I wouldn't go with a 50% penalty because eventhough they are good, gestalts characters aren't exaclty worth 2 characters.
Coren 12-06-05, 12:21 AM	I normally just don't allow gestalt characters to take a prestige class.
Ozymandias V. 12-06-05, 05:40 PM	Our DM just decided that the PCs and amazing NPCs are gestalt, and everyone else is normal.
simon_tage 12-06-05, 06:02 PM	There is no way to balance them. If you penalize the gestalts then it is unfair to them for using a variant rule that was allowed. If you don't penalize them then the non-gestalt PCs are left behind. That is the why and wherefor behind the all or nothing nature of gestalt campaigns.
Jerks 12-06-05, 09:11 PM	I don't think it penalizes them. They'll be flat-out more powerful than a single classed PC, but the single classed guys will advance in levels a bit faster than their gestalted guys. In a campaign with a mix of single and gestalted characters, an XP penalty is about the only fair way to do it. A 50% penalty (the highest that should be considered) would put the PC on pace with class abilities as would a character that multi-classed through more standard means. I would recommend a lesser penalty as a gestalt character lags behind standard multiclassing with hit points.
Ertai Planeswalker 12-07-05, 10:07 AM	As far as I know, gestalt characters need 50% additional XP to level up. You could create an alternative level table, or just give Gestalt character a 1/3 Xp penalty. The result is the same. As such, two characters with equal Xp should be about equally powerfull, except at first level, where Gestalts have a slight advantage.
Jerks 12-07-05, 10:47 AM	I don't think gestalts have an XP penalty in the RAW of Unearted Arcana. A 50% penalty certainly makes sense if you are going to blend gestalt and non-gestalt characters in the same party. As you said, the single classed guy will be out-shined in the early goings on, but after that his increased ability to level up will allow him to become more on par with the gestalts and maybe even surpass them. Which of course will up encounter levels and XP and bungie the gestalts back toward the high level single class player. It might be doable, but I'd advise telling the player that doesn't want to gestalt to take the NPC Expert class along with his class. This will have the lowest amount of impact upon his vision of a pure XXX, but give him a bit of flexibility in selecting skills. Because he picked a NPC class, the GM could then give that player a 10% bonus in XP to make up for him being slightly weaker.